Right, and that kind of negates any plan to just go over the tiger.

Probably a design fault then.

It happens.

Anyway this is the second time I used the tiger. Speak with animals -> boom solved.

Also, the more ambiguous a puzzle is presented, the more time players will spent poking at it with weird ideas.

You guys had illusion.

@Joshua Having read the transcript for this I have a few point of feedback if you are interested?

What you got?

The only other big thing I've got is the beehive was a bad idea.

e.g. We're told that the floor has an abjuration aura, but no other clues. That could mean anything from an alarm to extraplanar banishment. Having some clue as to what it actually does - maybe something placed in the environment nearby - would have encouraged players to be less cautious.

Oh man. Detect magic is really double-edged.

I actually wish it returned better information than school of magic.

1) The theme feels inconsistent. I'm not sure what you were going for but having a consistent theme helps players figure out the sort of thing they should be looking for as the puzzle progresses. You had animals, then magic, then mechanical/electrical? I would normally try to maintain a consistent theme within a dungeon.

Yeah. Personally I try to avoid puzzles that depend on specific spells, and instead use exploration & environmental cues to present the needed information.

I tried to make sure each puzzle had three different solutions.

2) You could give more information with less details to start with. I guess some of this is from the format of the game (text based) but it left the players asking for more information to be able to make decision most of the time. Maybe consider more complete descriptions of the rooms as they enter them. Then give the details if they choose to investigate particular things.

Oh yeah. The invisible dragon problem, as I call it. Never assume that the players will ask about something you haven't described to them. As far as they know, if you haven't described it, then it doesn't exist.

I tried to describe everything as it came into line of sight, but got physched by that robot butler.

but yeah I totally goofed on describing the spear trap

@Joshua 3) It was obvious you had particular solutions in mind. At times it felt like the players were spit-balling ideas until they stumbled onto your solution. Things like suggesting they use "detect magic" felt a bit like you were pushing for a particular solution rather than being open to inventive players.

I suggested detect magic because they wanted to understand the tiger.

Unfortunately that threw a monkey wrench into everything else.

@Joshua It wasn't just the spear trap. It was things like the players having to ask what the symbols on the map meant.

@linksassin To be fair, the symbol is a question mark, so I figured we were supposed to investigate it.

@MikeQ Yes that's true.

Good point. I think MikeQ and I had a different idea where the players were, but I should have been more liberal in my guess.

Sorry for sucking. It should have gone better.

"It should have gone better" is my motto whenever I DM, lol

Do people have an aversion to using a pickaxe given by the DM on the floor?

What I would have done is say something like "The cave begins with a hallway leading directly east. On the north way is an open archway with another passage leading north. Opposite it you can see a smaller, heavily damaged door. At the far end of the hallway it appears to open out into a larger chamber, but it is too dark to make out details"

Oh that's good.

@Joshua Oh, please don't be discouraged. We are providing constructive feedback.

Truth is, I hadn't expected everybody in the party to have darkvision either. The spear trap was a complete paper tiger. They could have just walked right past it, but they accidentally set it off with mage hand.

Yeah exactly was MikeQ said. I think you have a really good start and kudos for being open to feedback and test running your puzzles.

'night all.

@Joshua The pickaxe didn't seem in any way special

It wasn't. I put it there in case of badly equipped players.

Ah ok

@Joshua Sorry if I came across as overly critical. I did think it was an interesting and creative puzzle. Hence why I bothered to read the whole thing.

relax man. It sounds like a typical work code review. Nothing to apologize for. I write like that in feedback all the time.

@Joshua Ah good. That was exactly the tone I was using and then I got worried that you might not be used to it. Again good to see you open to feedback.

Good luck and keep improving.

You can never be too careful with how things are portrayed through text. :)

My biggest failure: Ben: "I'm confused" then proceeds to state everything exactly as it is

Should I put empty corridors between the rooms next time?

@Joshua My issue there was that the way things were, exactly as they were, seemed a bit too absurd. I would have accepted them that way, I just needed the confirmation

Ah got it.

The map layout was fine. The issue was the clues and how they were communicated.

I just have abjuration pigeonholed as self-defense spells

I plain-old forgot that banish is abjuration

Yep, that's the classic "I think about X this way, so the players will think that way too" pitfall.

The hardest problem with any puzzle design is that if you know the puzzle the solution is obvious and its hard to see what you haven't communicated well.

Fair point

I'm just glad these guys had thieves tools

I guess the pickaxe was there as an improvised solution?

I'm guessing the pickaxe was to break open the 2nd vase, which presumably hid the key.

@linksassin I had one puzzle in a game that was based in a player's mind (we visited a psychic who took us there). It was a room that led two ways - both seemingly dead ends. One depicted "good", the other "evil".

It took us 1.5 hrs to figure it out

Sounds like they failed to describe the options well.

The puzzle was just "pick a direction"

@Ben That's why I usually just use the dice roller to pick one when I have no idea which way to go :P

@V2Blast Oh no once we figured out that was what the choice was, it was easy. We just had to figure out that was what the trigger was.

@Ben I see. That just sounds like an exercise in frustration...

Looking back, the evidence was all there. It was a dreamscape in one of the PC's minds; they were in control. The problem was that we got lost in the puzzle and forgot the setting.

I was actually the one that suggested "what if we just choose a room - good or evil?"