Discussion on question by hb20007: Why doesn’t all solo piano music begin in C major or A minor?

Feeds

16:35

-3

Q: Why doesn’t all solo piano music begin in C major or A minor?

This is a follow-up question to What's the point of keys other than C and Am? Background All the notes of the C major (C) and A minor (Am) scales are white notes on the piano. Also, the corresponding keys have the simplest key signatures. We know that music is not about the individual notes but ...

Aaron

I feel I can all but guarantee your question will be closed as a duplicate; it has to be read very , very carefully to understand the difference. I recommend rewriting it to clearly focus on "why does all piano music not begin in Cmaj/Amin?" That's buried in a "p.s." right now, but it's the main point of what you're asking.

Tetsujin

Who said C maj is the easiest key to play in on piano? Personally, I think it's E♭ maj.

hb20007

@Tetsujin If my assumption that C major and A minor are the easiest keys to play on piano is wrong, that would answer my question. However, I would like to see some evidence or objective information regarding this.

JimM

Pieces of music change key at times though don't they. And sometimes (perhaps even often) those key changes occur during the more complicated bits of the piece. Given that, perhaps its better to start in an 'awkward key' and get the complicated bit in a simpler key. I recall using this argument 45 years ago at college. Personally I've always found B major very easy on the piano.

hb20007

@JimM I would like to know why composers do not start composing in the "simpler" key if there is no musical difference between the keys. I am not talking about the edge case where a composer has "planned ahead" a complicated bit in the piece.

Tetsujin

16:35

This is starting to feel more & more like an argument from incredulity. You can't imagine it wouldn't be easier for everything to start in C, so you also can't imagine why anyone else would do it… therefore they shouldn't.

hb20007

@Tetsujin Like I said, if I have made any wrong assumptions I would happily accept an answer that points them out. Well, because this is a question, not an argument.

Theodore

@Tetsujin I always assumed it was just my personal preference to play in E♭. Interesting to hear that others find it easiest.

Tetsujin

@Theodore - I have a feeling Stevie Wonder does too. tbh, when I start to noodle I just gravitate to anything with a good sprinkling of black keys because I find it easier than trying to do everything on all white keys. It feels awkward, fo no reason other than 'it does'. On guitar I gravitate to D, but that's because it removes that E or A base that just feels over-used.

user1079505

Does this answer your question? What's the point of keys other than C and Am?

Rory Alsop

I have a feeling this question is not really based in anything other than opinion, so I'm very tempted to close as subjective. Let's see what other votes come in.

hb20007

16:35

@DoktorMayhem I see that now there is a concern that my question is subjective. I have provided my thoughts as a simple syllogism. My assumptions might be flawed, but what I am asking for is not subjective. If you still disagree, please explain why.

@Theodore Why is that a bad thing? There are many legitimate and common questions that can be answered with "your assumption is wrong". These questions contribute to the knowledge base on music which this website is trying to become.

@Theodore I also invite you to read this answer on Meta regarding questions based on a wrong assumption: meta.stackexchange.com/a/202145/260017

@Theodore So what were you saying exactly? You were equating my question being based on a false assumption to it being a duplicate or opinion-based.

Theodore

@hb20007 Comments are not for discussion. They are for respondents to explain why they aren't writing an answer.

Dom

@hb20007 you are spending more time arguing about your question than learning about the topic. Clarifications can be good, but this goes beyond that. The question section as currently worded is a duplicate as you are still referencing why a composer would write in keys other than Am or C because of an assumption.

If you wanted to reflect about if key choice affects how playable a piece is for piano, that's a very different question.

And in general how easy/hard something is, is typically opinion based. General trends may be near universal, but specifics will almost never be.

hb20007

@Dom I would also rather focus on the great answers which were already provided and research more, instead of arguing. I am open to suggestions that will help me improve the question and I hope to get constructive suggestions for improvement.

Dom

I will point out the answers will stay whether or no not the question gets closed. If there's another way you want to approach this that's drastically different it should be a new question as drastic changes invalidate answers.

hb20007

@Dom I am glad that the answers were written despite the downvotes, as I find a lot of use in them. However, the downvotes do indicate that perhaps the question can be rephrased better, which is why I am trying to improve it.

Dom

16:45

Again, if it's drastic and invalidates answers it should be a new question instead.

Otherwise the current answers don't make sense

hb20007

@Dom No, not drastic. I read this post on Meta: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/194476/… ... I see that the advice for these cases is to edit the question and clarify why it's not a duplicate and reword it to highlight differences.

hb20007

17:05

I just edited my question to make it more clear why it differs from the on it was marked as a duplicate of.

I invite everyone to read it again and consider voting to reopen.

Dom

17:45

@hb20007 your question is clearly answered in the duplicate. See the 3rd paragraph of this answer: music.stackexchange.com/a/15222/7222

> Some keys fall under the hands more easily than others on the piano. For instance, non-pianists are often surprised to see that F# and C# Major/minor are relatively common keys for solo literature, but it makes sense because those keys tend to feel nice under the fingers--especially when the thumb can just play the occasional white key while the other fingers stick largely to the black keys.

Dom

17:57

I will also point your syllogism has problems in it "C and Am are the simplest keys for piano." is 1. Unclear. simplest to sight read could be true (but may also not hold water depending on the piece itself could vary), simplest to play would definitely not be true. 2.The conclusion doesn't follow with the two premises even if true. Why would simplicity alone be the reason for not changing keys?

Composers care if their piece can be preformed or not, but simplicity itself is typically not a direct factor unless that's their goal.

hb20007

18:28

@Dom It might seem like an answer to you since you have more knowledge on this topic. I see a lot of new and detailed information that's useful to a beginner like me in the answers that were already posted for my question. Regarding the problems in my syllogism, I have already shown that this is not a reason to close the question as a duplicate.

Dom

There is a reason to close it: it's already been answered. Detail can always be added, but it doesn't change that it's a duplicate. You haven't really shown how it's not a dupe an the meta information in your question will distract others from actually learning about the topic.

Let's put it this way: in another category of questions we get "Does this sharp carry over to the next bar?" The answers given cover whether it's a G#, F#, or even flats including Bb. Details will change, the answer will not even if you get into concepts like transposing instruments. Using your logic, asking about this on any instrument would be a new valid question that's not a duplicate. I think we'd both agree that's not really constructive for the site to have the same question answered.

hb20007

@Dom I know that the meta information is a distraction and I really hope I can remove it or that I did not even have to write it. However, I believe that I have reformatted my question in a way that clearly shows that it is not a duplicate. I start by taking the key information from the other question and than ask about the area which is not covered there.
As you rightly point out, some specific versions of a more broad question are more useful than others. However, I believe that mine is quite useful since I have provided arguments on why the case of the piano is worth examining on its own.

Dom

Again, if it's not a duplicate then just changing the instrument of a question makes it not a duplicate which I don't think is a good policy. We'll see what the community says in general, but I'm pointing out how I see it and as someone who's been on the site a while, more questions we have should be closed as duplicates not less.

We tend to get the same questions and answer them the same way and not closing proper duplicates leads to issues like conflicting answers and general site noise.

Dekkadeci

18:45

@hb20007 You are giving "planning ahead" too little credit. Quite often, I have heard a piece - and seen its sheet music - not only begin in one key and end in another, but also spend the majority of its time/measures in that ending key. Now should we really start that piece in the easiest key? (I typically see this in 19th-20th-century marches, especially John Philip Sousa's.)

hb20007

@Dom I thought that the piano was worth its own question because these scales correspond to white keys on this instrument. It might sound strange to someone who is more knowledgeable, but it is a thought which I made as a beginner and assume other beginners may have the same question as well. If you disagree, I respect that and as you said we will see if somebody will vote to reopen.

@Dekkadeci That's an interesting point, thanks

Dom

I really suggest instead of trying to convince people this isn't a dupe, you take the assumptions you have and ask if they are reasonable/correct. I think that alone would be more useful.

Like as a new question.

hb20007

@Dom I think that's a good idea, like "Is music in C and Am easier to play on the piano because it is on white keys?"... But I feel like this information was already provided here so I'm not sure how the community will feel about that.

Dom

discard C and Am

Ask does the key a piece is written in affect playability for piano?

hb20007

To be honest, I would have expected that question to be closed if I asked it... It sounds broad and the answer seems to be an obvious yes

Dom

18:58

I'm not sure where you are getting broad. Even if the answer is yes, it's the why that you are assuming that is incorrect.

And that's the important part.

hb20007

I mean, people will say "yes but it depends on the piece". Is there any more to it that I am missing?

Dom

Again, your assumptions about white keys being more playable is incorrect. An answer would give a general idea of what aspects of keys affect play ability.

hb20007

Alright, I will think about it and consider asking it in a few days. Thanks for the tip and the discussion in general

For now I will remove all the meta info from my question to try to make it more useful for someone who lands on it

Transcript for

Discussion on question by hb20007: Wh…