Not a bar, but plays one on TV - 2019-10-08

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2:36 AM

@Yuuki 110% agreed, also I think it's supposed to?

@trogdor it's a pun because she has a thing in her eye

@trogdor I think so, yes

@Yuuki ...lol

@Yuuki it's also literal, because yes XD

that's exactly how I feel when I look at it

so basically you made the perfect pun

pack it up boys the project is over

6 hours later…

8:12 AM

@V2Blast Basically Tamagotchi + Nanachi/Mitty + WALL-E

@Yuuki To be fair.. the art style is very close to other works from the same team.

Hotaru no Nikki (Firefly's Diary if you prefer the English name)

or alternatively Yomawari

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(btw, just in case. Yomawari is an horror game. Keep that in mind if you want to look for more info about it. I think many regular users here do not really like horror).

@trogdor based on the official site, the thing is actually a mushroom.

8:29 AM

huh

growing out of the ah,.... missing space

@trogdor I think she actually still have both eyes. See the trailer. The robot finds the girl lying alone in the middle of nowhere, covered by plants and mushrooms . The robot tries to cure her. I think that you may be able to fix the eye somehow later in the game.

I also expect that the game will have multiple endings.

ah

And probably a timer that sets of every time you leave the terrarium - Like Pandora's Tower

There is a screenshot on the site that shows the terrarium but the girl is nowhere to be seen. In her place, there is a sort of cocoon, so I assume that is a bad-ending / gameover screen

I think that the game may have some sort of "If you ignore the girl for too long / take to long to return it is game over" mechanic

We will see in January.

that seems like a reasonable conclusion based off of your observations at least

As always, Nippon Icchi isn't exactly famous for providing too much detail in their games web sites

8:43 AM

yeah actually that seems like a big thing for a lot of studios/developers/game companies

yeah

I mean not literally all of them do it but it's pretty pervasive

2 hours later…

10:29 AM

oh, nice, an Asterix coin.

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that's not a legit euro, is it?

> This is a rare example of an established comic book character featuring on official European currency.

huh

10:54 AM

@AndrasDeak I mean, if Japan had a Doraemon coin....

well, Japan...

11:14 AM

in Sugarcube Corner, 35 mins ago, by Derpy

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^ @trogdor just in case you wanted to see the actually colored version. More pictures in the linked room.

wat

eh Rarity isn't my favorite by a long shot

@AndrasDeak Kotobukiya is doing a set of action figures for the main 6 characters in MLP if that is what you were wondering. Yes, I know it is weird for a Japanese company to actually have figures of American shows characters, but Kotobukiya already did multiple figures of other characters including DC/Marvel characters, Star Wars etc....

I mean that in itself isn't so weird

Japan already has a thriving figurine industry

and I assume they can make decent money selling figures both there and abroad

@Derpy I was more concerned about the 100% human form

11:20 AM

the design is probably a mix of Equestria Girl clothes and human pony fan art that predates Equestria Girl.

yeah the movies where they are human high school students isn't my favorite premise

but it's a thing that exists

don't they have weird coloured skin and faces there?

What about it? It's from Rainbow Rock, right?
Edit: ah, maybe not from there.

weird coloured as in pony coloured, before anyone hits me with a CoC

@AndrasDeak yes

11:22 AM

@trogdor it is pretty evident that that premise was executive meddling. If you look past the first movie, you see that they try to work around those.

@vicky_molokh I appreciate your optimism but I don't know what that is :P

The EG design still uses the pony colors for the "human" characters.

So, EG Twilight is still purple for example.

The Kotobukiya figure instead have all an human look.

yeah, and also they all have a uniform very skinny body shape in the EG movies

I mean, to be fair

that figurine looks like a real person

11:24 AM

I think keeping the weird candy color in the human form was a little weird

@Carcer that is also an extremely fair point

which sorta ties into what I was saying

@trogdor looks weird, sure, but also completely avoids any issues with assigning real-world racial identities to the characters

if they were going to make them human actually make them look human?

@Carcer you have a point

for sake of comparison...

in Sugarcube Corner, May 21 at 11:29, by Derpy

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because there was literally no choice they could have made there which wouldn't have exploded one half of the fandom or other

@Carcer quite literally, people of color

11:26 AM

@Derpy I mean, to shoot my own point in the foot, I can hardly tell that is Twilight Sparkle at all XD

it could have been some anime character with weirdly similar hair if it weren't for the design on the skirt

but wtv

and hair

I got no problem with these existing

well the hair yes but like

a looot of anime characters have weird hair

XD

true

spot the protagonist, yuge

...to be fair.... before the EG movies were made, most of the human fan art made Twilight Asian. And for unknown reason most drawn Dash with darker skin

11:28 AM

@Carcer XD exactly, perfect and hilarious example

Seem the figures added that in the mix.

@Derpy fanart had a lot of variation, which I feel pretty confident asserting given my background

yeah I mean

fanart is going to vary

this necessitated choosing a preferred version of fanart to implement fanart at all

@trogdor It is also worth noticing that they gave her glasses, so you can't state if that is Twily or Sci-Twily.

which makes a statement even if you aren't trying to

11:30 AM

@Derpy what's the latter?

I was going to ask the same

@AndrasDeak in the first two EG movies, the pony version of Twily goes to the alternate dimension where everyone is human.

oh wait

this is the human one of her you mean

In the third movie, you actually find out an "human Twilight" exists

that thing they did which was,... definitely not weird XD

11:32 AM

@Derpy and what's the difference between "human twilight" and "human twilight"?

I mean, I guess there were "human" versions of the others too

it's all weird

I thought they went through some portal and became humans

no

only she does I think?

the others are,... just people who live there who are also her freinds?

it's weird

I guess it's easier to maintain some sort of continuity if there's none

no, the portal is an alternate reality. Only Twily goes from the pony world to the human world

11:33 AM

it's all weird

Twilight goes through a portal and becomes hamnified

humanified

hamnified?

blep

ah

candyhumanified

11:33 AM

it's just an alternate reality where there happens to be versions of all her friends already

so there's twilight-turned-human and there's original-twilight-human-since-birth and in that scenario the former is the evil clone who wants to take over the latter's life

to be fair.... there is an actual "continuity".

and then I think the other movies are just about all the "human" ones?

The EG mirror is tied to one of the COMIC.

and I think at the very end of rainbow rocks there's a scene where it's revealed that there is also an alt-universe twilight who is very concerned about her mysterious doppelganger?

11:34 AM

cool, makes sense

I've not kept up in ages

I only watched the first one

imagine her surprise when she goes through a portal where everyone's a crazy pony

it put me off the others honestly

@Carcer that is Sci-Twily as the fans nicknamed her.

But at the time, she is only concerned because her instruments picked some weird energy reading from the Canterlot High school

She never saw the alternate Twily back then.

11:36 AM

oh she's called that because she does science stuff

lol

weird thing to call a regular building canterlot

I should have really guessed that

regular Twilight never does science so that makes sense

lol

no of course not, she does magic

:P

lunchtime

11:37 AM

@Carcer what can I say... she has glasses.

@AndrasDeak funny you mentioned that....

yeah I love that steriotype

glasses makes us scienctists

:/

I think that mostly applies to non-males...

white lab coats also help

I've seen plenty of male scientists with glasses in movies

perhaps they just had poor eyesight :P

lol

I mean, it definitely isn't the most harmful stereotype out there

11:41 AM

but it is very dumb if you think about it

"your eyeball is distorted so you are a scientist"

it's definitely dumb

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I'm just saying it isn't exactly at the top of the list necessarily

I got my glasses around when I started my PhD but that can't be significant

I mean I got them when I was about 6

or possibly 7

it was a minor source of bullying as a kid

11:43 AM

@AndrasDeak As you can see in the above screen, yep, Sci-Twi does indeed get to become a pony in a recent EG special episode

@trogdor I imagine it also gives an amount of protection from physical abuse

@Derpy huh? I thought someone just drew a pair of glasses on her with a sharpie

@AndrasDeak hmm maybe I don't think I would personally assert that

also, I'm fairly certain someone threw a rock at me once, and they didn't help me with that

@trogdor well you sound like an expert, so I'll defer to your judgement

I mean, I didn't get physically attacked much as a kid

I don't know if I would necesarily put that down to having glasses

let's check a parallel universe for a control group

11:46 AM

but they were definitely a source of extra verbal/emotional abuse

I can imagine...

there's a stereotypical association with wearing glasses and being a nerd which has persisted in pop culture

yes

because scientists are nerds, yes

yes :P

11:47 AM

@Carcer Anyway, the mirror idea was probably recycled from the Reflections story arc of the IDW MLP comics. Problem is, the comics are never canon so the reference got lost and never mentioned in the show.

I mean honestly it's not something that exactly haunts me now

but I wouldn't want to support any theory that it isn't extra hard for some kids with glasses because they have them

The general idea was that the mirror (or the mirrorS since originally there were two of them) were a door to alternate dimension that were all just alternate versions of the same basic world.

alongside any other possible factors that would contribute to teasing among their peers

12:05 PM

part of me wants to hope that glasses have been very normalised these days

but all of me has no desire to pay attention to the way children behave to find out

12:18 PM

I mean it could be better now?

but I don't want to assume that

nah, people are still jerks, and the kids pick up all the bad and not all of the civil restraint

they will always be jerks but maybe they're jerks differently now

I guess. It's possible that you're much more likely to be bullied for not having an iphone XYZ rather than for having glasses

12:36 PM

@AndrasDeak I think the next models were going to be called Iphone Sword and Iphone Shield?

1:15 PM

@GcL haes?

Health at every size?

1:25 PM

@goodguy5 Yeah.

3 hours later…

4:14 PM

Update from Monica meta.stackexchange.com/posts/334646/revisions

4:36 PM

@AndrasDeak Upset people are still upset?

@GcL After talking the talk, walking the walk seems to be late and unsatisfactory, judging by the update.

that ^

The apology can be a good start if it's backed up by actions. This is the first feedback about action and it's not a good one.

I wonder if there are satisfactory outcomes and for what proportion of those involved or observing.

@vicky_molokh No indication that it is the final word on the matter though.

@GcL any situation where Monica doesn't feel wronged is satisfactory

"I am not satisfied and I have asked for a conversation." sounds like she didn't even get an invitation for a conversation

4:39 PM

For what proportion of the people involved or watching do you think that will be satisfactory?

@Rubiksmoose True, but we can say the same about each and every complaint the community had against the SE corp so far either - 'they might, hypothetically, do something in the future' etc.

@GcL I don't know and I don't really care, I'm here for my own opinion :P

But I think a lot. Not enough, but regarding the great injustice it would be a satisfactory start for most.

@AndrasDeak which great injustice?

I'm still hoping for a successful descelation.

@GcL The one that made this whole thing blow up, and mods fleeing the network in the past few weeks.

Oct 3 at 18:47, by Andras Deak

It isn't even demodding Monica. The reason why this blew up is how she was blindsided by the process.

4:42 PM

Let me guess: the infamous article is still in the top results, the diamond still in the corp's box, the timeline and process for the new CoC is such that it cannot be meaningfully reviewed by and made accountable for the community.

@AndrasDeak It was under the impression it was a conflagration of issues.

And it's only been a few days since they promised action. There's certainly not an unlimited time for them to fulfill their promise, but I'm willing to give them more than this.

@GcL oh there's a lot of baggage behind it. But I'm pretty sure that if they had handled Monica's case with more tact then we wouldn't be here at all, and the underlying issues would still be buried (or behind the doors of the teachers' lounge at least)

Oct 3 at 18:48, by Andras Deak

if you look at the mods resignation noticed you'll find quite a few that say "I don't agree with Monica but the way she was treated means I have to stand up"

@Rubiksmoose The more time they are given, the more the chance that the momentum will be lost and the corp will decide all is forgotten.

@vicky_molokh For sure. It is timely.

4:45 PM

@AndrasDeak That seems like pointing to the match to carry the responsibility of the explosion.

@GcL I'm just saying that first I want to see the match put back in the box, then we can go on with the rest of the problem

to put it another way, rehabilitating Monica (which doesn't necessarily mean giving back her diamond) is a necessary but insufficient condition to put the manure back in the horse

@AndrasDeak What would that look like do you think? or what would you observe that tells you it's "put back in the box" sufficiently?

Don't focus too much on your own analogy. And I think my previous message answers that.

What would you observe to tell you that " rehabilitating Monica" has occurred? and what do you think that would involve?

Monica's answer being edited to "We're in conversation with the company" in a happy way, later to be edited into some mutually acceptable end result. Mostly with a content Monica, with or without her diamonds.

ideally they would remove the slander from The Register but I won't hold my breath for that

4:55 PM

@AndrasDeak Apropos of nothing, we should remove diamonds from the elite few and distribute them to the people. The askers and answerers must take back the means of upvote production!

@AndrasDeak I'd say replacement of that article by an apology is a minimum starting point for 'rehabilitation'.

It's a minimum needed to do to heal the reputational damage.

@vicky_molokh except that would imply they admit to defamation, which would be a no-no by the standards of any decent legal division

Without such a replacement/apology, DAMAGE CONTINUES TO BE DONE.

@AndrasDeak Well, then the standards of the legal divisions are unethical. Not that it's supposed to surprise anyone.

so it's like, "yeah maybe some misunderstandings were made", but not "yeah maybe we ruinned her public image without proof or true cause"

To be fair, "never admit anything" is #1 in legal proceedings no matter if you're a company or an individual.

It's not solely the domain of "unethical company lawyers".

5:03 PM

@vicky_molokh I like that. That's two different things that people have stated they would point to as evidence of remedy. Would an apology article be in addition to what @AndrasDeak stated earlier that they'd like to see?

So I feel like a lot of this conversation is brushing up against but not actually addressing the elephant in the room, which is the possibility that SE does not feel they wronged Monica above and beyond not utilizing a fair/transparent process for removing her from modship.

I've already made my feelings on the issue clear, so I'm not going to waste text space rehashing them, just want to point out that that may be a bigger factor in their response, and whether or not Monica feels satisfied by their public actions.

@Xirema Oh, this whole thing is about SE-corp seeing things differently than the community. So that's not particularly surprising either.

@vicky_molokh Indeed.

@Xirema I like that. That's a third perspective. Is "Monica feels satisfied" tangential to what you'd like to observer or a part of it?

@GcL At this moment, with the caveat that I'm free to change my mind on the issue as new information is provided to me, yes. I would consider that issue orthogonal to what I think SE needs to be considering right now.

SE definitely has damage to repair.

5:08 PM

I'm really enjoying this conversation. Three people and three different perspectives on what remedy would look like.

@Yuuki CommunExchange?

or like Who Stacks the Stackers?

@GcL I'm requiring them to fix Monica, but this doesn't mean that we'd be done.

and I think the issue that made it viral was mistreating Monica, but this doesn't mean I think it's the largest systemic issue

although dragging her through the mud in an online news site probably was, or close

5:33 PM

@AndrasDeak I didn't see that. Which news outlet?

5:47 PM

theregister.co.uk/2019/10/01/stack_exchange_controversy

> "On Friday, we revoked privileges for one Stack Exchange moderator when they refused to abide by our Code of Conduct (CoC) after being asked to change their behavior multiple times. The disagreement stemmed from an interpretation of a certain policy, but our CoC is not up for debate."

> Asked to confirm that Cellio was the moderator in question, a company spokesperson said, "Cellio (she/her) would not use stated pronouns, which violates our current CoC. We are soon publishing an update to the CoC to even more explicitly cite misgendering users or moderators as a violation."

If you google Monica's name that's the top hit, and it portrays her as a transphobic bigot, which most people who have seen her interact a lot seem to disagree with. All the arguments we have on SO/SE are at the end of the day just a tempest in a teapot. The article, on the other hand, is a very serious public attack on Monica's person using her own name. That's a competely different kettle of fish.

@AndrasDeak I don't get the impression the article is portraying Monica as a bigot.

I'm not reading an attack on Monica's person. I very much like the quote attributed to Monica there. "My answer said we must not call people what they don't want to be called, but there are multiple ways to avoid misgendering and we should not require a specific one."

6:03 PM

note that it if you look at the date it was posted when there was only the first one or two mod announcement, I'm not even sure Sara's canned reply answers had been posted by then

stepping out into a public medium when the whole community was going deep into confusion was unacceptable

@AndrasDeak When was this not in a public medium?

It really isn't. It's our little trash pile over which we bicker. It doesn't really become public public until a twitter influencer stirs up something

this is when the meta chat found out about the Register piece:

in The Meta Room on Stack Overflow Chat, Oct 1 at 9:27, by Raedwald

The current dumpster fire has been reported on The Register: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/01/stack_exchange_controversy/

you can see a bit further down the general sentiments

in The Meta Room on Stack Overflow Chat, Oct 1 at 9:35, by Cerbrus

@Raedwald It's rather disappointing that the media gets a more detailed account of what's happened than SE does.

that's mostly what I thought

I disagree. The posts here are publicly accessible and indexed by search engines. Also, lots of people use SE sites... so it's not like it's a login walled off small traffic site.

@AndrasDeak I don't find it surprising that a professional reporter or journalist could discover a detailed account of what's happening. Seems like that's their job.

@GcL including custom comments they got from "a spokesperson"?

I'm not sure about the timeline but I think by then we only had community-driven gossip and guessing on the metas

Isn't that who journalists usually talk to?

6:09 PM

let's just say some people thought it in bad taste that they grace a random news site with a comment and wouldn't bother responding to the community hubbub on meta

So people are unhappy that their issue is newsworthy?

Or they didn't think it was news worthy?

meh

@GcL Spilling the info to the press but at the same time being secretive towards the stakeholders/community is a rather iffy behaviour.

Spilling info to the press? I imagine someone picked up a phone or answered an email from a journalist.

Looks like the author wrote a follow up article. theregister.co.uk/2019/10/08/stack_overflow_apology

nice, haven't seen that yet

it also mentions Sara's original "apology"

one key point is that SE believes that the current CoC already bans not-using pronouns

> There's also unrest about mandatory binding arbitration, animated ads, user fingerprinting for ad targeting, and changes in the way site content is licensed.

at least someone's paying attention

6:16 PM

That's the same author as the first article.

> On Saturday, more than 360 Stack Exchange moderators co-signed an open letter to the company seeking "a roadmap for how Stack Exchange will improve engagement with moderators and the broader community."
> Also, 94 mods representing Stack Exchange's LGBTQ+ community voiced their own concerns in a separate letter,

that's wrong, alas

Is it? How so?

those are the total numbers, a smaller part of which are mods

lavender letter has 37 mods and 4 former mods out of 111 signees right now

> The Register asked Stack Exchange whether it would share a copy of the new Code of Conduct, but we've not heard back. ®

heh

the update seems fair enough

What about the October 1 article made it seem like it was painting Monica as a bigot to you?

the company's words were off to me, but I haven't read it since then and I wasn't exactly open to their communication attempts

6:38 PM

@GcL and there were probably about five hundred posts/comments/etc. asking wtf was going in in the SE meta which did not get a response

that's the fundamental issue there - that SE does not answer these questions when they are being asked by their own community via the appropriate channels, but does externally

2

@Carcer And it's not the first time either. Remember the twittocracy incident?

@Carcer I assume that's probably why the journalist didn't go with that avenue, but maybe they do have an account here. it is an IT news outlet.

@GcL I feel like you are missing the point

@Carcer I find that interesting. I wonder what the perception is that prompts that behavior.

1 hour later…

7:57 PM

@AndrasDeak Seems the numbers were corrected

The followup article does seem better phrased than the first

@V2Blast yeah, I pinged Art in the Tavern and he passed on the ping

8:21 PM

30

Q: An update on my resignation notice

As promised, I'm on my way out. I am unsustainably exhausted after the past few weeks, and... it's time for me to go. I don't see another way. But I have some final thoughts, and I can't leave in peace without writing them down. This post is not about me. I will perform a magic act: to cut a gna...

discussion moderation

@AndrasDeak I don't know what that post is talking about. Is it being intentionally vague or have I missed the buried lede somewhere?

8:43 PM

@GcL Aza resigned just before Monica was sacked, complaining about the company's mistreatment of LGBTQ+ users. Once Caleb posted about pronouns people started putting the two together, some of them blaming Aza and LGBTQ+ people in general for the situation. Aza tried explaining that the two are sort of unrelated, but without being able to disclose details she was probably unconvincing to some users.

as it's been mentioned in plenty of places there's been an onslaught of transphobic remarks amidst all the drama, maybe this is what you've missed

@AndrasDeak Blissfully missed any onslaughts of transphobic remarks. Where were most of those?

In comments mostly, as I understand. They tend to get deleted.

There have been full-blown transphobic answers. Most of them have been removed. MSE is mainly where I saw them.

there are just iffy answers such as this one, but I was told one of the deleted "insightful" comments it refers to was flat-out transphobic

@AndrasDeak UGH. I don't even want to know.

8:54 PM

for what it's worth it was aniline's, not Caleb's

Huh. Well I have thoughts about Caleb's post that unfortunately are Not Nice.

I didn't see either comment

Oh I meant his Meta post.

Yeah, I know. Just wanted to clarify.

Gotcha.

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Oct '198

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