plus, you deciding to move gives them all their turns first

@BESW That makes sense, too. And it's not like a class that can use any kind of ammo is going to run short XD

when they move it doesn't let you do what you want first

@trogdor Here, have an article about melee vs ranged parties.

@trogdor Technically no, it just means you go when it would be the turn of your slowest party member.

definitely not something that stops you from winning, but the blatant unfairness there certainly annoys me

@trogdor Well, they move individually, on their turns.

And only one Gadge has to focus on lock & traps, so the other can specialise in something else--throwing & sling or artifacts, for extra utility?

Your party is the only group creature in the game.

@Miniman fair enough there

afk meeting

@BESW Artifacts, Mythology, Speechcraft (or whatever it's called); there's a lot you can do with spare skill points.

@BESW The Ranger spotlight talks a bit about modern weapons vs bows, but basically: Modern Weapons are higher damage, and don't require points in Strength for damage.

Just to be clear, I mean that they are higher damage independent of Strength than a character with maxed Str using a bow.

And let's face it, being able to ditch a stat is a big deal in Wiz8.

@Miniman and the Omnigun debuffs stuff

though a ranger isn't gonna use that

or at least shouldn't......

@trogdor Nah, it's not possible.

I figured

also, if you have one that means you have a gadgeteer

@trogdor A lot of that has to do with its ammo, actually, which is one reason why slings are better than they seem.

so you wasted a slot to give a ranger an omnigun? nah that sounds so dumb even if it was possible

@BESW There's another possibility - a dedicated slinger might not go astray. You could potentially make that a Bard or something so they've got plenty of options.

@trogdor Actually, that would be awesome if you could do it. The Gadgeteer can make themselves useful just using a gadget every turn, and the Ranger's Profession bonus to Ranged Combat, combined with their ranged critical ability, would make the Omnigun better in their hands than it could ever be in the Gadgeteer's.

@Miniman but then you always need a caster to use stamina for the Gadgeteer to do things

In case you don't know, each class has a "profession skill" which is automatically multiplied by 125%.

and the ranger wouldn't improve the gun during camping

@Miniman I am aware

@trogdor Oh yeah, I guess with a ranged party fights are a lot longer, so you'd run short.

@Miniman how does that affect how they learn points in it through use?

@Miniman yep, plus before they do they won't be doing any other things

@trogdor Not sure. I mean, we don't really understand how skill point gain works in the first place, so...yeah.

ah

it seems like they gain skills through using anything related to that skill

@trogdor Yep. But we don't really have any more detail than that.

my casters with power cast still learn more power cast points even when casting non-damage spells

@Miniman yeah I get that

just making observation

I think you only gain skill on successful uses, and I've often thought you gain skill faster in combat, but there's no way to really be certain.

it does not seem faster in combat to me

though some skills, like melee combat and ranged combat skills, won't go up at all outside of combat

some others won't feasably go up IN combat, though that is mostly cause they won't be used then

Yeah, I'm mostly thinking about spellcasting here, since it's the only one you can really experiment with.

stuff like Mythology and Locks and Traps

@Miniman it seems like an invisible bar is getting filled every time you cast something, and the higher level spell, and probably the harder it is to cast, the more the bar is filled

it probably depends on points in int and or piety, or any other possible governing ability stat

@trogdor Yeah, but as BESW mentioned, spamming buffs doesn't seem to raise it much at all.

@Miniman but it does raise it

I think they just do less

@trogdor The realm skills depend on int, the spellbooks depend on int except for the priest who depends on piety.

@Miniman I figured

obviously, a fighter or a samurai doesn't need int to get points in their weapon or close combat or crit

@trogdor Exactly! The question is why they do less. Is it because you're not in combat? Are those spells inherently worth less "skill XP"? Do they not count when you already have the buff? We just don't know :(

@trogdor Technically, I think int does change how quickly you gain points in close combat and crit.

@Miniman I don't think it's cause you are out of combat

I think they are worth inherently less

@Miniman ah, maybe Ryu just has an abnormally high int for most melee focused guys

he is a hybrid, with a race that doesn't dump it as much as lizardmen, and got a +5 bonus just cause the whole party got one from a puzzle

he has like, 60, and his skills go up faster than I would sometimes think they should

@trogdor Even if he was a lizardman, he'd still have 60 int - the starting req for a samurai is 55.

@Miniman well, lizardman fighter though

those are what I am comparing to

obviously it is a slightly silly comparison, but it's the one I was making

I guess that is just a samurai vs fighter situation though

the race has nothing to do with minimum end stats, how suited they are to the class they are just lets you put extra points into stuff

@trogdor Well, it does determine minimum end stats for stats the class doesn't care about.

ah, true enough

but for the comparison I was making, it wouldn't mean much

Yep

now Dracon fighter vs lizardman fighter it would matter

I assume

@trogdor Yeah, it makes a pretty big difference.

does anyone put points into int for lizardman fighters, or do they not care about those faster points cause they have a pretty limited number of things to put points into anyway?

@trogdor Well, I'm not certain about the faster skill gain thing, and I'm definitely not sure how much difference it makes. I've never heard of anyone putting points into int on a lizardman fighter, but I'm sure someone's done it.

The problem is, in Wiz 8 even a 100% vanilla fighter needs Strength, Dexterity, and Speed at minimum.

I mean, personally I wouldn't

I would max like, str and vit first, and then maybe go for dex and speed or something

int would probably never be touched

I keep getting speed and senses mixed up XD

I just wonder if anyone has done the science on that

to be fair though, if you were going to do that science, another race of fighter would probably get you results faster

Sadly, very little science, or even spading, has been done on Wiz8.

@Miniman there are a lot of hidden variables in it

but that is one of the kinds of things that facinates me

or better yet, two fighters, one is the race with the highest int bonus, the other is the lowest (presumably lizardman)

see which one gets more points in a skill without putting points in that skill yourself

build them the exact same way and see if they deviate

You'd need to make sure all the stats governing what they were doing were the same, though.

I will probably do this at some point,... even though I kinda just said I probably wouldn't XD

@Miniman trail and error, of course I need more data first

no worries there

Well, I'll be interested to hear anything you figure out.

it will definitely take time before I can get anything definitive out of it

hmm

actually, I could just make them both the same race, and then they start out with the same stats to start with, and one gets like, str and int, and the other gets str and vit or something

probably better than leaving any variable stats around

if the one with more int gets more skill ups then I may have hit something, if they both get the same either the int doesn't matter or vit actually does govern stat gain too

Aaaand I just ran into the Stormwind Fallacy on a Wiz8 forum.

which fallacy is that?

That RP and min/maxing are mutually incompatible.

@Miniman I can guarantee that failed attempts DO add to skillups.

Also spamming buffs you've already got.

There may be some kind of short time delay between casts that count toward skillups, but it's measured in seconds.

@BESW I was pretty sure they did, just trying to demonstrate how little we know about the system. For example, do they count for as much as successful attempts?

For that... if you really want to know, go lurk in the hex-code forums.

I just want to know if int works for every skill, and for that I think the system I am working out will figure it out rather quickly enough without me needing to lurk a forum XD

when I actually try it anyway

no rush there

An animal shelter in Indiana is letting people walk dogs while playing Pokemon Go.

They missed a golden opportunity for "Gotta Walk 'Em All!" though.

Ah, Pokemon Go - possibly the biggest thing since the invention of fire.

I'm fascinated by the conversation spaces it's opening on a variety of issues.

it is doing that, for sure

I'm really interested to see whether it blows over or persists as a societal meme.

I can definitely see it going both ways.

I am personally not sure how healthy it is to mix a video game with wandering seemingly random places in the real world though

@trogdor There are definite issues there, and a lot of warning cases are cropping up already.

What seems silliest to me is how the game encourages people to walk all over the place, but only within major population centres.

mm

that is part of the problem I mean

also, looking at the screen some of the time instead of where you are going is not good

@trogdor Especially while driving...

take it from someone who used to read crossing the street

@Miniman that is like, you might as well be texting

same thing there

and yet people still text and drive XD

@trogdor Worse, really. Texting doesn't demand continual attention.

it's pretty bad

@Miniman some people think it does though

@trogdor I stopped doing that a while back, but one of my sisters has perfected it.

I was good at it, don't get me wrong, but

it is NOT a good idea

But yeah, I'd really like to see the game incorporate some caching and encourage people to do some actual hiking.

@trogdor No argument there.

That's several of the conversations it's opening: the "opt-out" rather than "opt-in" attitude toward privacy, the complex relationship between public spaces and the people who don't feel safe in them, urbanising and marginalisition, and the old Weizenbaum caution about making consciously informed choices about our technology.

@BESW "the "opt-out" rather than "opt-in" attitude toward privacy" - as in, a location can opt-out of having Pokemon appear in it? Or something else?

@Miniman doesn't sound like that no

@trogdor Yeah, I didn't think that was a thing people could do, which is why I'm curious what BESW meant.

I mean, he said opt out in relation TO privacy

as in not having any

Pokemon Go is sending people to private properties, to cemeteries, to Holocaust museums, you name it.

Individuals and institutions are being co-opted for the game without their permission--or even any warning.

But they have no way to opt out, either.

that is what he is saying

Right, but that's just a matter of time. I'm looking at Pokemon Go as an extreme example that's very very public, opening conversation space for a broader issue:

no one signed up for people to walk into/onto their property to collect digital pets

The default assumption in modern information politics is that your privacy is a privilege you must actively earn and invoke, rather than a right you can actively waive.

@BESW That's been a fairly major ongoing issue for a while now, though. I'm not sure Pokemon Go is really going to change anything.

@Miniman Not on its own, sure. But it's providing a more commonly relateable context for the conversation.

Just like Black men have been speaking for decades about the experience of walking in public spaces and being assumed malicious and dangerous, but people who have heard that argument and not understood it are now (some of them, at least--I've seen tweets) able to personalise it as "Black men are afraid to play this game I and all my friends enjoy together, and that's awful."

Seems trivial and petty, but common empathy however trivial is an excellent start.

That's what I mean by "opening conversation space." Pokemon Go isn't doing anything new or different. It's just providing a common low-confrontation framework for talking about these things.

Hmmm, interesting. Do you see it getting people involved who were previously uninterested in these conversations?

Yes.

Because they like Pokemon and want to talk about Pokemon and are upset when Pokemon makes people feel bad, it's a backdoor into topics they'd avoid otherwise.

I kinda wish it didn't take something like this

but nothing I can do about that XD

I can't dig it up now, but yesterday I saw a Tweet that actually said something very close to "If Black people are really so afraid to play this game, I must have been seriously underestimating what it's like for them."

People are re-tweeting Arlington National Cemetery's request for people to not hunt Pokemon between the veterans' gravestones.

Notions about public space are being challenged in ways that they've always been challenged, but now there's decades of pop culture weight attached to it.

fair enough there

The designers probably figured "We're using data provided by people moving through public spaces, to get people to move through public spaces, so there's no conflict."

@BESW part of the problem is that the definition of "public space" can get quite fuzzy at times

But there's a big difference between a note on Google Maps about the best coffee shop, and a note about the grave of a war hero, which Pokemon Go cannot distinguish.

@BESW yeah they did not use their brainy brains for that one

I suspect it won't be too long before Pokemon Go ticks off someone with the resources to make them add an opt-out option.

Which bring us back to Weizenbaum's prediction that we'd be in big trouble if we treat computers as value-capable.

I know of one place in my hometown where a piece of live railroad industrial lead trackage actually sits on the right of way of the neighboring city street

Particularly once they start getting into less easy-going countries.

...I may have to bring that up next time I run into someone from the real estate or law depts. @ work

I personally like Pokemon,.... but Pokemon Go itself never seemed like a good idea

These topics are adjacent to conversations about hostile architecture, too.

the first time I heard about what it did, or what it was going to do, I immediately thought of the trouble people would put themselves in because they were going to the wrong places for it

(That article I just linked has some very meaty editorial ideas that need to be thought about critically by more people.)

afk a while

@trogdor yeah -- there are some places you really don't want to be if you have your nose in an AR thing

and places you probably shouldn't be period

but yes

@trogdor well, I've been (legit) to a couple of them, but as I said, there are plenty of cracks and gaps in our notion of public and private spaces

I am not disputing that

I also won't say Pokemon Go is like, THE problem

it's more exposing a constellation of problems that AR-based entertainment was bound to trip over sooner or later

it is basically a thing that wouldn't be a problem by itself if the world was entirely inherently safe

@Shalvenay yeah

in some ways, it'd be easier in say the UK where there's a stronger tradition of relying on physical (vs. legal) barriers to control access to land -- trespass by itself isn't as big a deal in the UK FWIR but they rely much more on fencing and such. (for example, the entire RR ROW in the UK is fenced off)

but the US has a strong tradition (especially the further west you get) of relying more on legal controls for land use as physical controls aren't as practical over the vast areas of land we have here

and the legal controls force you to pay way more attention than the physical controls

@BESW there are also issues with AR and what basically are unmapped unintentional hazards

even if you have people defining go/no-go zones for your AR thingamajig, the data needed for them isn't always easily consumable -- and it gets worse as soon as you try to machine-define even parts of that dataset

basically, my thing against it is pretty simple

if using this thing causes you to want to walk/run around without paying attention to where you are,.. it isn't great

A lot of the current discussions, including this one, don't quite match up to the way the game actually works, and so appears to be fearmongering and concern trolling.

obviously, I figure you COULD use it responsibly, but the point is that not everyone will be doing that

doesn't make it worse than texting while you walk or drive though

but doesn't make it better either

E.g., you only really need to pay close attention to the phone when a pokemon has popped up. The best way to catch it is to stop in place and deal with it. As long as people aren't being idiots and stopping in the middle of a road, there's little risk of anything happening.

There's also little to no reason to get into off-limits areas. There's not going to be extra secret pokemons there. At most, stuff like this is happening.

@Magician there are lots of places where it's inappropriate or even unsafe to stop/loiter but not obvious that that's the case -- and it's not specific to PoGo either -- these sorts of problems were bound to happen with a widespread AR application

Which is to say, there's a reason to go to a place with intersecting PoIs. But these aren't ripped from google maps. They're lifted from another AR game by the same company, Ingress. Which had been crowdsourcing PoIs for years, with some sort of review process to them. So it is not entirely.... machined.

@Shalvenay Care to name a few?

Yes, walking around staring at a screen is potentially unsafe. It's also not new. People already do that with facebook. I did it with actual books.

@Magician you'd be shocked as to how many people wouldn't recognize a grade crossing as an obvious "don't stop here" zone, despite how much work OLI's done to bang into people's thick skulls to behave responsibly around tracks. other issues ofc are societal security -- the "security status" if you will of a location varies with time, both over the short and the long term

(it's also hard to gauge, especially for a reviewer in an office many miles away)

there are ofc issues with cemetaries/grave sites, monuments, limited access locations (how do you take into account in an AR system a PoI that's only available on Tuesday afternoons?)

I would hope (as I do not know this) that grave sites and the like have had been rejected from PoI of Ingress (and therefore Pokemon GO).

@Magician not completely consistently, best I can tell

Ah, apparently it does happen.

@Magician I mentioned this before myself, I definitely agree it isn't a new thing

@Miniman Nobody has a "thrown" skill bonus, do they?

not even like, ninjas?

I have not used one yet, but I would have expected,....

Ninjas get thrown criticals, and thrown auto-penetrate, but their +25% skill bonus is on Critical Strikes, not Throwing & Sling.

ah

@BESW Not Profession bonus, but I think ninjas have a starting skill bonus.

I would say that they probably have enough making their thrown attacks better at that point

Hmm. I'll go with a throwing-specced ninja. But what race...

@BESW Hobbit is pretty nice (as usual).

Hobbit is good for anything that doesn't care about Piety.

What about Felpurr?

Felpurr are pretty good too, they're certainly the most traditional ninja race.

I'm not a big fan of the whole catfolk thing, and their low Strength is a turnoff too.

so Hobbit is like Human but doesn't like divine casting, and maybe a little bit of casting in general?

@trogdor Like a really fast human.

@Miniman what's wrong with catfolk? they have dogfolk and lizardfolk

@trogdor Hobbits have a great spread for any non-caster profession; they dip a little under Humans in STR and INT, but are 5 or 10 points higher in DEX, SPD, and SEN, which they carved out from PIE.

@trogdor Honestly, it's just one of those things where so many people really like them that I find them annoying for no particular reason.

ah

I have not tried using one yet

I like the picture of a Felpurr in a turban. I'm that shallow.

I have no idea if staring at one on the screen will be troubling for me or not

@trogdor I meant catfolk in general rather than Felpurr in particular.

I definitely don't like the dwarf pictures in the game, for example

so my dwarves are all gonna look human (I am so happy they allow stuff like that, some games have not XD)

Also, not all the races have the same total number of starting points before Profession (probably because each stat is weighted differently).

If we assume all stats are weighted equally, Humans have the most, with Hobbits, Lizardmen, and Rawulfs tied for second place.

well, I can sorta see that

the stats all do different things from each other, though some do have overlap

Compromise: roll up a Hobbit and call it a Felpurr. So far as I know there's no mechanical distinction after the chargen page.

@BESW Except for Mook. (Mooks? Do we see a plural somewhere in the game?)

yeah, Dracons and Fairies are probably the only ones that actually keep real difference after that

@Miniman Mooken, obviously.

Thinking about it, they're consistently referred to as "THE Mook".

@trogdor Actually, a number of races are differentiated.

@BESW fair enough

Dwarven damage resistance 4 Life!

(Literally.)

I only noticed any difference in those two races

Dwarves have DR, Dracons breath, faeries have race restrictions on items, Mook can use a few extra-big items, and everybody's got slightly different resistances.

Poor Lizardmen get reduced mana regen.

XD

they aren't built to be casters

@BESW You shouldn't feel sorry for Lizardmen - they dominate non-casters way too thoroughly anyway.

plus, if you have a safe place to camp, that isn't the worst race penalty

@Miniman True.

I have already gotten to the point where many of my casters don't get back all mana they typically use in one rest

@trogdor Ugh, I hate that.

@Miniman it is a little annoying

but it honestly is not the worst thing about the game

@trogdor No, definitely not.

I certainly would have preferred camping to just give you all things back, I can see at least 2 or 3 relatively minor things about the game that show it was a very specific design choice that it does not do that