Not a bar, but plays one on TV

1:09 AM

@BESW <- @waxeagle Even I feel this, and I'm deeply concerned about what the mod team will do, and their capacity to handle this well, and I haven't had any cause for such concern in most if not all of the years I've been here. The current mod team is behaving... differently... as of late, and the mod team has been ignoring problems to poisonous effect.

Derpy

8:33 AM

Forgive me for adding to the drama, but I sensed a friendship problem, and since I still haven't written my weekly letter to SE staff....

Jokes aside, forgive me for suggesting, but wouldn't it be advisable to try and contact JonEricson if you have some moderation problem? He is a community manager for StackExchange, he should be able to help.

user61230

9:11 AM

In-character moments #49298:

user61230

> CAS: keep doing that, and I'll write you an essay on why your used toilet paper is art
> CSI: Please do! I want to read what kind of [crap] you find art.

Ahriman

9:31 AM

@Emrakul what is CAS & CSI?

user61230

@Ahriman Shorthand player names.

Ahriman

k

Thought I missed something somehow somewhere

Derpy

1:55 PM

I am starting to worry. I didn't see @Pixie around since I got the plush.

Either she is plotting how to steal it, or... she is the plush and she is just waiting for me to fall asleep to run away with my collection.

KRyan

3:18 PM

@SevenSidedDie I don't think anyone is “amused.” This entire discussion has been immensely stressful for me, it's been like walking through a minefield. I am keenly aware of the need for, and lack of, substantiation in my claims, and I also simply feel at a disadvantage in a debate with you; you're better at it. I haven't been sleeping well, could not focus on my game last night, and thank god this happened during a slow week at work or that would have suffered too.

doppelgreener

@Derpy why not both plots?

Derpy

@doppelgreener .... because in that case she would be plotting how to steal... herself?

doppelgreener

@KRyan That sounds like how I felt trying to deal with the issues after game recs going out cast everything else off topic too.

@Derpy OK, well, minus that bit. Steal that plushie and all the rest.

As the pringles marketing goes, once you pop you can't stop.

Derpy

@doppelgreener but but but... that bit is the whole first point :P

> she is plotting how to steal it (the plush, called it instead of her only to not be confused with the other her, aka Pixie)

doppelgreener

@KRyan which by the way I don't consider a sign of being better at debate, only, being better at certain tactics which apparently leave both you and I feeling like crap for engaging.

@Derpy oh :3 I am confuse

(Maybe the above thing is unfair? But both of us are stressed to hell and that sounds pretty similar to what I went through and I don't believe in coincidences in these situations)

(I also don't mean to imply any such tactics being a deliberate conscious effort. I was great at being bossy for a long time before I became aware of it.)

KRyan

3:35 PM

I don't know, I just know that the level of ... discomfort I feel is wildly inappropriate for engaging with a website. I am sorely tempted to just walk away altogether; only reason I don't is because I strongly feel that I should not have to do that.

I really enjoy being able to help out, answer questions

I enjoy seeing what others here are doing and playing

I shouldn't have to give that up just to avoid feeling this way; I shouldn't be feeling this way to begin with.

doppelgreener

@KRyan I agree you should not have to feel that way.

KRyan

Hah, I've been made to feel like shit, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt. (and a mug. and some stickers. Also, it's a pretty sweet T-shirt)

doppelgreener

Oh. You got swag?

KRyan

Yeah, you get swag at 100k

doppelgreener

Nice :)

KRyan

3:41 PM

apparently at 200k you get a signed unicorn-rainbow painting

doppelgreener

Wow

KRyan

or, at least Jon Skeet did when he was the first to do that

doppelgreener

KRyan, there's also a thing I'm going to look into (entirely beside the debate itself) that might be worthwhile for you to take a look at too.

KRyan

oh?

doppelgreener

There's a question that's come up. I think it's a good one to look into. You're going to find it alarming at first, because it's something mxyzplk has commented about.

But I actually think it's good, for you included, whichever way it gets answered.

KRyan

3:45 PM

?

doppelgreener

The question is this: does using the RAW tag result in substantially different answers? Nowadays, every rules question everywhere on the site (RAW tag or no) is expected to answer the damn question and elaborate on rules. Once done so, house rules and home brew may be appropriate or may just be super dumb. starting and ending with them is always bad.

If there is a concrete difference, that's good to identify and show, to show the tag has a unique function we should preserve.

If there isn't a concrete difference in the kinds of answers that get produced and, especially, voted to the top and accepted, that means the whole site is operating under the expectations you have under the RAW tag. Which means: welcome to a site full of things working the way you're most comfortable.

Something to think about and look into because it sounds like win/win for you personally.

(Neither can be safely assumed to be the case without some super good substantiation. I don't consider either side free of a need to show their work here, there's no default. It's just a good question to look into, I think.)

KRyan

I mean, my ideal is that the best answer to a rules question is the one that details RAW, whatever it is, no matter how stupid or torturous, and (if it is in fact stupid) details sensible and practical alternatives from experience

for any rules question, RAW-tagged or not

but at least when things are not RAW-tagged, answers rarely do the former when it gets dumb, and answers that do rarely get rewarded for doing so

(in my totally anecdotal and unquantified experience)

doppelgreener

@KRyan which I'll take for being worth a lot: it's coming from someone who invests a lot of energy into this tag

KRyan

and even if everyone agreed with my values system for judging answers, it still becomes difficult to vote if you have one answer that offers the technically correct, but practically stupid answer, and someone else offers a practically useful answer, but doesn't properly call it out as not being quite technically accurate

I am very big on answers needing to at the very least properly indicate what they are

but I also don't actually recommend playing by RAW when it gets dumb

I suppose both answers are flawed and deserve comments suggesting improvements

but then that gets heated, and well meh

so I suppose that my answer to the question is this: the rules-as-written tag primarily, as you said in the last meta discussion, sets dials.

doppelgreener

@KRyan me neither, I wouldn't want to play D&D strictly by the book unless it's 4e.

KRyan

3:55 PM

@doppelgreener even that has its moments, I'm sure

doppelgreener

(Then again I wouldn't want to play it anyway, but if I had to)

KRyan

I really want to play more 4e

was in an awesome one, Nazis somehow opened a portal to Greyhawk and we were basically going to play Wolfenstein with D&D characters, but real life swallowed the DM

doppelgreener

@KRyan yeah for sure, here and there. Like BESW decided he was going to go with something called Level 1 Equivalent Damage eventually for the defense/damage scales.

@KRyan that sounds pretty cool.

KRyan

it was very meta and silly

doppelgreener

@KRyan returning to this, how do you think things would turn out if such questions were answered that way when they requested it, but otherwise there wasn't a RAW tag?

KRyan

3:57 PM

all of us trying hard to push the tropes into each other

doppelgreener

@KRyan ha, that's great when that happens.

I'm not going to hold you to these answers and you might want to just let them sit for a few days before answering.

Like, smell the roses so to speak and take time to consider it.

KRyan

@doppelgreener well, I also want the tag just for finding those questions where it's requested

doppelgreener

@KRyan oh yeah, that's fair. (But, also, we've run into a problem where people are using the tag as shorthand for making the request, quite often. @_@)

Which leads to the ambiguities people are arguing about being there / not there / maybe a little bit there, who knows. (I want that data so we can talk about it sanely.)

KRyan

@doppelgreener frankly, I'm fine with that. I tend to assume people are smart and act intentionally. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I assume they added rules-as-written because they were requesting such an answer if necessary, setting the dial as you said

@doppelgreener and I find these arguments exhausting because they're predicated on not assuming that, and furthermore assuming the opposite, which bothers me

and honestly, just like... feel very singled out because people assume the tag wasn't intended, or wasn't intended as often as it was

the original question was almost literally "this tag gets used a lot, that can't be right!"

like, "clearly there can't be this many people actually interested in asking these kinds of questions"

and I realize the "rules" thing is why, but I can't help but feel like that's just an excuse for the targeting in some cases

doppelgreener

@KRyan it was a combination of that and "but these just look the same as all the rest so what's the point of it anyway??"

KRyan

4:04 PM

@doppelgreener because the answers were the same regardless of the setting on the dial

but the querent couldn't know that before getting an answer

doppelgreener

Yep, agreed there

KRyan

so the fact that they set the dial is valid

doppelgreener

There's going to be regular RAW questions which are just dead simple to answer. I found one of my own earlier today.

@KRyan honestly I think this is a decent assumption (maybe 90% accurate in my own view), but I'm making an educated assumption there too.

I'll be thinking about the questions I put to you generally in the next couple of weeks - I'd like to see how things start looking when viewed through that lens

You may want to do the same

I'd be interested to see what conclusions you form from the exercise

@KRyan I think this is what it does too, even now after I've had plenty of time to change my mind.

But like. There have been dudes that answer rules questions with just (only!) homebrew and have gotten huge smackdown for it. that's good.

Pedantry is called for if/when the situation really demands it: the asker does, or they didn't but they asked a question that is going right down the rabbit hole.

KRyan

@doppelgreener there have also been cases where that hasn't happened, though. And cases where I've been yelled at for commenting that something is technically inaccurate

@doppelgreener the latter definitely does happen in a few cases

doppelgreener

Hm. Phone client doesn't show what messages you're replying to exactly. But also it is 2am and I should sleep - I'm going to check back on whatever you have to say in the morning, from a pc, ok?

So if there's more I'll read that too

KRyan

4:20 PM

@doppelgreener that's fine, I... don't really have much more to say

doppelgreener

Alright

(Being yelled at: not good thing, should never happen)

KRyan

4:35 PM

@doppelgreener some hyperbole there; I mean, it's happened, but not in a way that seemed sanctioned

I meant more, told not to do that or that the comment was inappropriate

which, I mean, this whole thing definitely has me doubting my judgment of my own comments, so who knows?