Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Hjulle

00:51

/part

This is apparently not IRC :P

user61230

Yeah, very different. If you're looking for something like 'leave', it's here (though there's another option if you're looking to add some keyboard commands, too)

Miniman

05:25

@Lord_Gareth This is trivial to prove. When you do good things for good people, obviously it's good.

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman You would be astounded and saddened deeply at the number of people who think an evil alignment on your victim justifies evil actions on your part, but especially in the case of evil outsiders who are 'by definition not an ethical concern'.

Magician

That is the purpose of alignment after all, justification of wholesale slaughter.

BESW

19

Q: Is Coup de Grace on sleeping and bound opponents an evil act?

So I was recently participating in a Pathfinder Society game. Our ship was attacked and boarded by pirates. First thing that happened was one of our party cast sleep, and succeeded in putting four of the pirates to sleep. Pirate 5 was killed, and six was dazed. Several players were rather gleeful...

Lord_Gareth

Oh hey, I answered that question.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth In the case of evil outsiders, there's very little you can do to them that's evil. Every moment you interact with them is a reprieve from their hellish existences in the Abyss/Nine Hells.

Magician

05:28

@Miniman That's an argument for lesser evil at best.

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman Ah, you are aware that there's Material Plane Worlds that are more inherently hostile and cruel than some Lower Planes, right?

It's not like the Christian Hell, where every waking moment is torment incarnate.

Hell, Grazz't's great fortress-city is a tourist attraction

Huge swathes of the various Lower Planes are downright enjoyable

I'm going to repeat that, just for emphasis

Magician

@Lord_Gareth There's a difference between tourism and emigration.

BESW

← 13 messages moved from RPG General Chat

Lord_Gareth

in any event @BESW why'd you quote the pirate thing? I thought my answer contained correct moral reasoning....

Anyway @Miniman, the point here is that while the Lower Planes are very firmly dominated by evil, maliciousness, and hostile terrain there's quite a bit of ability to simply live there, even mostly undisturbed.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Fair enough. I guess I'll have to stick to killing them to remove their evil from the world.

Lord_Gareth

05:32

And even if that wasn't the case, it doesn't justify violating a sapient being's basic rights to respect, dignity, and freedom from pain and mistreatment

BESW

← 1 message moved from RPG General Chat

@Lord_Gareth Because it's an excellent example of people debating the virtue of actions based on context.

I didn't link to your answer. I linked to the question as a whole.

Lord_Gareth

'Kaykay

In any event Miniman, I should possibly provide context for this

See, awhile back I designed a PrC that represented an order of fiend-hunters. They did not hunt fiends to remove evil from the world, though that was the justification they gave to others

No, they bound the souls of these fiends into rusty iron shards and then used those shards to create magical effects, enchantments on weapons and armor, and wards for areas.

And if you could read minds, or speak telepathically? You could hear the shards. Screaming in pain. Sobbing. Begging for the death that never comes, gibbering in a thousand tongues to get away, to run while you can still save yourself from the horror that has become their life.

If you can free the things they come out with permanent mental damage, stripped of their alignment subtypes and minus about four levels

And probably spend several thousand years recovering

Care to guess what the reaction to this was, @Miniman?

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth I'd react with horror, but it sounds like your group might have responded with "oh, well, they're evil, so this is probably fine"

Lord_Gareth

@doppelgreener Not just my group! Oh no, that might have been fine. I've long ago accepted that I DM for a small group of exceptionally talkative lungfish rather than creatures capable of human reasoning.

God no, I published that on a homebrew forum and immediately got three pages of complaining that the alignment requirement on the PrC was 'any evil' because their actions were "clearly good aligned"

Miniman

05:49

@Lord_Gareth It's the same as computer games, really. In their heart of hearts, players want to slaughter every villager they meet for 1 xp and half a copper piece.

2

BESW

@Miniman There's an unwritten epigraph in my head about how Bioshock and Shadow of the Colossus both exploit and subvert the gamer mindset.

Miniman

@BESW Wait, what? BioShock broke the mold - by giving players an explicit choice between killing and not killing, they made people assume that there was a 'good' consequence for not killing. I don't know any players who killed the Little Sisters on their first playthrough.

Lord_Gareth

Game informer included the main character from Shadow of the Colossus in its list of Top Ten Assassins in Gaming

@Miniman Bioshock exploits the gamer mindset by turning rails into a plot point. "Would you Kindly"

Instead of handwaving it as a gameplay convenience

It places it front and center and showcases the lack of free will many games display

By literally stripping you of yours

And rubbing your face in it

Adeptus

@Miniman Dishonored had a more positive outcome from less killing, too. But it came much later.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Well, yes. I assumed BESW was referring to the specific gamer mindset of killing everything you come across.

lisardggY

05:55

I remember being shocked and appalled playing Ultima VII, back in the day, when NPCs would actually object when you opened random containers in their house and looted them.

You would end up in jail!

Well, there weren't that many consequences to it other than having to pick the lock and escape, but still.

Lord_Gareth

In any event @Miniman, one of the things I like to do is ask ethical questions in games I run, even in alignment-based games. With sufficient twisting - and ignoring everything the authors have ever said about it - alignment makes a good springboard for some very interesting conflicts.

Especially when you realize that 'evil' and 'ethically wrong' are not the same, and neither are 'good' and 'ethically correct'

BESW

@Miniman [eyebrow] BioShock is a 2007 game. Black & White is a 2001 game on which the entire crux of the gameplay turned on the player's choices; BioShock's morality system was skewed drastically toward saving the Little Sisters because of the rewards for doing so, making it really no choice at all--and narratively the only impact it had was an anaemic "different cutscene" ending.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth The distinction between ethics and morality is fairly well defined in philosophy.

Adeptus

@lisardggY Don't try it in Elder Scrolls games - the guards (and owner) attack you!

Miniman

@Adeptus I know way too many people who have killed every non-plot-vital NPC in Morrowind.

And most of the plot ones, once they were done with them.

Lord_Gareth

06:02

@Miniman But your average person cannot tell the difference and gets thrown for a serious loop when they encounter a situation where the good-aligned action is also the morally wrong action.

BESW

BioShock's "killing" morality system is weak, insignificant, and hypocritical: killing every other person you meet is morally indifferent.

Lord_Gareth

Which is when I sit back and observe quietly while I inwardly laugh at their suffering and confusion.

Because schadenfreude is the best freud.

Miniman

@BESW It's more like 99/100 people, which I realise only helps your point.

BESW

Its true explorations lie not in the killing, but in the living: it's a deconstruction of the gamer's trained unquestioning obedience to the questgiver.

lisardggY

So, we're talking about roleplaying in Not A Bar and about cleaning products in RPG Chat?

7

Lord_Gareth

06:04

@lisardggY We're not cluttering the main room with alignment debate, yes.

SOMEONE WAS UNWISE ENOUGH TO BRING IT UP AROUND ME

[Doom glare]

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Now that's an interesting perspective. D&D alignment as a system of ethics rather than a system of morality? That actually deals with a lot of the problems in it.

lisardggY

@Lord_Gareth Hence the raeg, yes, yes. I was following along. :)

Lord_Gareth

@lisardggY There is no 'hence' the raeg. The raeg is eternal, without beginning or end. Certain topics simply focus it from a background presence into a coherent presence that darkens the world with Its malice

lisardggY

@Lord_Gareth All Hail the Raeg Unending!

Lord_Gareth

@lisardggY Let us begin the ritual prayer: "ARGH WHY, WHY DOES THIS EXIST?"

Adeptus

06:08

@BESW In Dishonored, killing is usually the easy option. But apparently makes the plague effects worse. I went for the harder, more moral option... I didn't succeed in a zero bodycount, but it wasn't far off. Even the targets to be eliminated usually had a non-lethal option. Branding the High Inquisitor for excommunication was very satisfying...

Miniman

@Adeptus Reminds me of NWN2 MotB. It's basically impossible to go the killing route if you want to play without using cheats.

Lord_Gareth

Also @Miniman, in all seriousness, please, please, do not bring up Vow of Poverty in 3.PF or monks in the same.

Just...just don't.

So many innocents slain

So much suffering

Miniman

It's fine, I already went there. (And got away with it...mostly.)

18

Q: Has 5e fixed the balance problems of the monk at all?

Many people believe that the monk has balance issues (and is underpowered) in 3.5e and Pathfinder. The goal of this question is not to debate that point but to see what changes the Monk has undergone relative to other classes in 5e. Has 5th edition fixed the major perceived problems of the Monk ...

dnd-5e balance monk

I still laugh every time I see KRyan's comment on that one. Especially coming from him...

doppelgreener

@Miniman In 4e, all classes were roughly balanced with each other.

All of them.

Lord_Gareth

Tread lightly, knave. Mr. Ryan is a friend of mine and one of the best system masters you could ever hope to learn from.

What, precisely, is so funny about his statement?

doppelgreener

06:20

Except for some really really bad ones. In that game, designing a class that was not balanced with all the others was bad desgin.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Yes, and he points out the superiority of spellcasters over martial classes in D&D at every opportunity.

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman As a bug, not a feature. This is not something he's happy about.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth So say we all.

Lord_Gareth

It is not something he considers to be a great part of the game.

Hence saying it may be more useful to ask if Monk got balanced relative to all other classes and not just all similar classes.

BESW

→ 19 messages moved to D&D 5e Discussion Goes Here.

Magician

06:28

BOOM

BESW

→ 1 message moved to D&D 5e Discussion Goes Here.

Lord_Gareth

[Rises slowly from behind cover] Is the slaughter over?

Adeptus

Moral of the story, you can get kicked out of the not-a-bar for brawling

Miniman

@Adeptus We were having a gentlemanly disagreement.

Lord_Gareth

Not any more! [Stabs with poisoned sword-cane]

That maneuver was knavely and dishonorable, yet done with a gentleman's weapon

Miniman

06:31

Fortitude save, Con mod +0, DC15, come on dice! d20

Lord_Gareth

Thereby defiling the very idea of gentlemanly behavior

Adeptus

I say, sir! That is jolly unsporting! Pistols at dawn!

Miniman

d20

Dice Service

14

Miniman

It's fine, I forgot my base save bonus.

For my counterattack...

Gentleman's Acid Arrow!

lisardggY

06:34

@Miniman Is that like all the Pathfinder spells that removed WotC's proprietary names? Melf? Who the hell is Melf?

Lord_Gareth

Objection! According to gentleman law as laid down by Johnathan Strange, when asked, "Could you kill a man by magic?" - "I suppose a magician might, but a gentleman never could."

Your spell cannot be a gentleman's weapon and implodes due to conflicting parameters

Miniman

@lisardggY I figure Mordenkainen's Disjunction became Mage's Disjunction because Mordenkainen was a mage, and Melf was a scholar and a gentleman.

@Lord_Gareth I didn't kill him, or even try to.

Him meaning you.

Lord_Gareth

At which point I may suggest you have a very different definition of 'counterattack' than the rest of us are understanding

Adeptus

He's not trying to kill you, just maim or seriously wound

lisardggY

@Miniman A gentleman will walk, but never run. Always face his opponent, never stab in the back. And always - always! - attempt to melt their face with a bolt of dripping sulfuric acid.

2

Miniman

06:37

@lisardggY I don't care whether this is an original quote, it's now the basis for every argument I make for the rest of my life.

lisardggY

@Miniman I want it engraved, in letters of burnished copper, on my mantel.

Had I a mantel.

Metool

06:57

@lisardggY You'll note d20srd.org also carries many spells with the product identity removed.

lisardggY

@Metool Yeah, makes sense. Melf isn't OGL.

Miniman

@Metool Oh yeah, I meant to mention that that is just a feature of the d20 SRD.

They really lose a lot of the flavour that way.

Which is the point, I suppose.

lisardggY

@Miniman Yeah.

Lord_Gareth

►

Goddamn, Viktor's rap just kills it. Love it so much.

"Steel will fix all your flaws/You will rise above human laws!/You will mock them made of meat/They'll drop to worship at your feet."

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Not a bar, but plays one on TV