unrelated...

does anyone recognize any specific reference in this picture or it is just generic Megaman - steampunk version?

Okay so I had an idea for Zariel. I'm kinda thinking about expanding the player interactions with her. Make her more like strahd were she has fairly frequent interactions with the players as she doesn't show up till the end and she's a cool villian and I want to give the players more chances to get interact with her. I'm also thinking about maybe making a way where the players at the end can convince her to free elturel. I don't know.

probably doesn't make sense

Not acquainted with the canon material, but (a) on one hand, more interactivity and chances for branching is nice but (b) on the other hand, I'm not sure about the Strahd-like descriptor - I may be mis-remembering, but isn't Strahd controversial from a design perspective?

not really. he's considered one of the best villians in 5e prewritten adventures.

but yeah his actual stat block sucks

I must be mis-remembering then.

but yeah most of the love for him is because he gets to interact with the players and the players get to know his backstory and his personality.

I have a personal dislike for many things in Curse of Strahd, so you may've picked it up from me.

I'm more concerned about how players (not PCs) react to a powerful NPC who is sometime portrayed as toying with the PCs. I am likely mis-attributing that to Strahd though.

@vicky_molokh That's Strahd alright

oh yeah that's strahd.

Depends on the group, then, I guess. You probably know them okay-to-rather-well by now.

When I said like strahd I just meant that I wanted that level of interaction with the PCs

Ah.

Interaction is good.

zariel is a very different character so the way she interacts will be different.

Yeah, the basic premise of the villain interacting often with the PCs is not subject to the same reservations I have about Strahd in particular

anyways um what about the second thing. having some way that the players can convince zariel to let elturel go

@Gwideon I don't know who these people are, but having an option to persuade a villain to do something helpful is always a cool opportunity to give.

Of course, to make it feel rewarding, it should rely at least on plausible arguments that are to be used by the PCs.

Same from me

I have rather little experience in DnD premades

Because 'I roll some dice and they autowin for me' is less cool.

I think it's one of those things where it shouldn't be about victory or loss, but more like what the immediate next objectives are

And of course if some of those arguments are only learned by the PCs as part of some investigation or some decision in a decision fork, that makes those investigations or choices feel all the more meaningful/rewarding.

Zariel is the arch-devil of the first layer of hell. she used to be an angel but was corrupted when she got involved in the blood war. Elturel Is a city that has been dragged down into the first layer of hell as revenge because the paladins of elturel abandoned and condemned zariel.

@Gwideon OK, how do you envision the possible paths to convincing her to let it go?

I'm thinking of either making the revenge meaningless (and appealing to some shred of honour/good in her/etc.), or as a stepping stone to getting some more important goal, or maybe because it would somehow complete the revenge (I have no idea how to make that implementable; I'm just throwing stuff at the wall in the dark).

maybe reminding her of the past and the compassion she used to have. maybe convince her to only take the paladins of elturel and let the otherwise innocent people of elturel go.

But the latter point would probably still be a net negative.

@Gwideon Leave the non-paladins as witnesses to share the tale of how she punished the paladins, perhaps.

true but this is a fairly morally gray campaign so it would fit

@Gwideon Maybe the party could find some memento she cherishes in spite of herself (but didn't have access to for now, or thought destroyed). And if presented with it, she'd release the civilians 'for the sake of the old honour' etc. etc. if asked persuasively?

Lulu the hollyphant

Not sure if sarcasm.

nope

that is a character

So . . . is Lulu hidden somewhere away?

well not really. she joins up with the party. I don't know. maybe i should just forget this

@Gwideon No, you shouldn't - the overall idea seems interesting and viable.

okay

Maybe Lulu could give the party the needed insights, but only upon seeing some results of investigations, some dialogues etc.?

she does technically have amnesia

Well, perhaps there are ways to either fix or at least partially mitigate that?

@Gwideon: I would say that Strahd constantly interacting with the party would give a very different feel from Zariel doing it. I haven't run or played the adventure so I don't know the specifics, but I think that the characters, uh, "looking up" to Zariel or kind of being aware of her actions/existence from an outsider's perspective establishes a better tone than having her chat them up from time to time.

then again I may be way off-base

I feel like the party should get to know her basically from others' perspectives of her (history books or whatever, sure, but other "people"/celestials/demons/devils especially)

Basically, seeing how the different groups and factions see her and what they think of her actions, past and present

Given that she was an angel and then an archdevil, I feel like with her being sort of a mythic figure in the sense that her actions sort of live on in legend, whether because some beings look up to her and others treat her as a cautionary tale, the party shouldn't get to know her directly until perhaps close to the final confrontation with her

those are just the ideas swirling around in my brain

and again, I haven't run or played the adventure so I only know some of the broad strokes of how it goes. that's just the sense I get of her as an entity

feel free to agree or disagree