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nitsua60
nitsua60
12:40 AM
@BalarkaSen I disagree that only Zee made the "welcome" an unwelcome one. And given that, I hope you can see where we could both agree that "dodgy behavior by 1 individual is surely not a call for freezing a room" yet we could still agree about this particular freezing.
I also never claimed anyone needs to jump on the table and cry 'Hallelujah!' when a mod enters; I do expect that people will treat anyone entering the room with kindness (Be Nice, is it hard?) and civility.
If that's not a thing the room can manage, the room doesn't need to exist, frankly.
@vzn IIRC a flag was raised; if users aren't aware that users with blue names are elected moderators we should fix that. Though please see above ^^. I don't think the welcome Quid got is appropriate for any chatizen.
@vzn I'm also going to go out on a limb here: in reading through lots of transcripts over the last few months it seems to me like you often insert yourself into situations like this. You didn't do anything to precipitate moderation, but when it comes around you like to chime in in ways that don't actually seem helpful to me. I wish during some of these occasions you'd take a moment to express fully-explained observations rather than just one-phrase interjections.
@DavidZ please do chime in if you feel like I'm missing something/misinterpreting something/misguided. I've been lurking pretty hard the last three/four months--since ME was nuked and mention was made of hbar and Math also being hotspots--to try and get a bit of a grip on how things stand and to slowly start to step in and try to help steer things in a positive direction. For we all know the staff will take no such measures if they feel these rooms are creating more trouble than they're worth.
 
David Z
David Z
@nitsua60 Thanks, actually your help is appreciated.
@nitsua60 I have had the same thought on several occasions.
 
vzn
vzn
12:58 AM
@nitsua60 your feedback is duly noted but feel youre missing some point(s). in recent situation maybe the denizens behaved in a snarky way but is that grounds to freeze the room and suspend users? it seems an overreaction. it seems your response is just the same "mods are always right" philosophy (eg never do stuff like "overreact", and are to be regarded as infallible) but only in slower motion. fell dont really see mods ever taking much feedback and always dishing it out... "asymmetry"...
 
David Z
David Z
Well, what sort of feedback would you have non-moderators "dish out"?
 
vzn
vzn
moreover the veiled threat of shutting down an entire chat room only seems to be serious given chatters tendency to cluster in particular rooms, which honestly seems a bit irrational to me at times. the weird status given to any particular room by both nonmods & mods does not make much sense to me.
@DavidZ the attitude seems always, if theres a flag, then someone has to pay for it. are there better strategies for "deconfliction" that dont involve that? am willing to say that nitsua60 seems at times willing to explore the idea. some of the suspensions are on very longtime users who have supporters and in many ways "anchor" the chat rooms... seems off to me... :|
 
David Z
David Z
"if theres a flag, then someone has to pay for it"... interesting, I haven't noticed that at all.
Could you expand on why you think that to be the case?
 
vzn
vzn
@DavidZ it would be easy to figure out trends if there were records of "when this flag [y] happened [y] was the response by the mod" but there seem to be no such records. hence, maybe a lot of "folklore"/ "legends" building up on both "sides".
 
David Z
David Z
Yeah, that's probably true. In which case, I'd appreciate it if you do your part to avoid starting or propagating that "folklore".
 
vzn
vzn
1:06 AM
it appears to me its a simple case that popular rooms tend to get more flags on average. so then killing a popular room is like cutting off the nose to spite the face... if SE has chat for the basic purpose of driving engagement on the site, then some reevaluation seems in order... why kill off the most engaging rooms? makes no sense to me.
@DavidZ duly noted. the transcripts show my occasional efforts to try to deescalate situations/ "off rail" moments, but on other hand dont consider it my job... would like to see the rooms have regular activity, but it appears that only a few rooms across SE fit that, and then there are rumors about shutting them down with any flags...
 
David Z
David Z
@vzn Sure, it's not your job to deescalate things. But I'm talking about speculation. Things like this message you quoted earlier - now, I'm not saying it was wrong to post that, but that is the sort of message that, taken out of context, will help start or propagate rumors.
 
vzn
vzn
@DavidZ have been around a few times when flags show up and it seems like sometimes the directions get "uglier" after the flag & that the mods tools are used bluntly, this is not that different than others observations stated in different ways. personally honestly would maybe prefer room freezes to suspending users where possible.
 
David Z
David Z
To be clear, when you say "directions" there, what are you referring to?
 
vzn
vzn
@DavidZ one blunt tool is deleting a lot of msgs, seems extreme to me at times. again, once saw one ("outside") mod delete a lot of msgs by other mods (along with all the rest)! the room drew several mods in with a flag that time.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn I don't believe I've taken a public stance on the freezing. If I disagreed with it I'd discuss that with the moderator in question, in a moderator-room. Maybe that habit is part of what contributes to me seeming to have a "mods are always right" stance? I certainly don't think that's always the case--I assume my own fallibility is going to raise its head at least daily, if not hourly, in ways that are hard to unwind.
I also don't believe quid suspended anyone at that time, so I think you're conflating two things.
 
vzn
vzn
1:16 AM
honestly guys, would myself like to see a way to decrease flagging to reduce mod hassle. but just looking at records they pop up intermittently on popular rooms.
@nitsua60 BaSe got suspended around same time acc to 0celo7 but maybe over some other offense. (note, both "regulars")
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn Mention of room-closure isn't a veiled threat. I don't have the ability to nuke a room, so I can't issue that threat. I am telling you, a regular, that I've been privy to discussions about this room being one that concerns moderators and staff alike.
@vzn So rather than acting (forming conceptions of what happened) on secondhand info, please try to seek out accurate information, first.
 
vzn
vzn
@nitsua60 oh great, so there is "concern" but is there any positive sentiment whatsoever on years longrunning room that seems to drive engagement toward the topic, and have many other apparent maybe-not-direct but peripheral benefits? have not really heard of any from you or this mysterious dark/ shadowy/ nameless/ faceless "management" that has the power to shut it down at any time on whatever whim...
@nitsua60 have been "1sthand" involved in hbar for years now. as have many of the other "regulars" in the room...
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn I don't believe the purpose of chat is to drive engagement on the site. It's to support mainsite activity, specifically the creation of chat-rooms to improve/workshop individual posts. That it has become a third space is an unintended benefit to chatizens, but not, strictly speaking, to the site.
 
vzn
vzn
@nitsua60 it has multiple purposes and think youre regarding it too narrowly even wrt SE mgt philosophy.
315
Q: Toward a philosophy of Chat

Shog9TL;DR: The Problem This keeps happening in chat: Surprise at flags on vulgar messages. Language that would invariably get your comments deleted on the main site occasionally gets flagged and deleted in chat. Confusion reigns. Controversial topics leading to bickering and name-calling. Folks b...

discussion chat feedback help
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Yeah, I was just re-reading that, too.
You're right: the way I described how chat is set up to support mainsite was too narrow.
 
vzn
vzn
1:25 AM
> ..."red headed stepchild"...
Do Trilogy Sites Need a “Third Place”?
Jeff Atwood on April 29, 2010

When people ask me what mistakes we made in building Stack Overflow, near the top of the list is not acknowledging the need for a meta-discussion site earlier. That is, a place for people to discuss Stack Overflow itself.

I resisted this for the longest time, relegating meta topics to UserVoice, because I didn’t see much value in meta-discussion. But then I finally bowed to community pressure and created meta.stackoverflow.com a little less than a year ago.

Owning our own meta, rather than outsourcing it, has been hugely productive in evolving the engine and the trilogy sites forward. The community was right, and I was so very, very wrong. …

↑ lol, sure enough, an idea of the departed ceo/ cofounder spolsky... :'(
 
David Z
David Z
Whatever the purpose of chat is, it's subordinate to the rules of conduct (i.e. the "Be Nice" philosophy). If people in the chat room don't demonstrate the ability to behave in accordance with those rules, then that's a problem, and any positive effect the chat room may have on user engagement won't stop that problem from being dealt with.
 
vzn
vzn
@DavidZ am fine with the general guidelines. there are some specific situations arising. some of the most "dedicated" chat regulars also have the most flags/ suspensions, it appears. who say the flagging system is unfair etc. even JR comod has been remarking on some of the arbitrariness of the flagging system.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Is it really that simple? I just took a quick look over the two dozen most-active chatrooms in the network (SE-side, not SO-side) and almost all of them I've literally *never* seen a flag in. hbar and Mathematics really do stick out. (That's based on a couple of years of catching network-flags; I don't see an obvious way to get flag-stats on a room.)
[edit upon further reflection: Mathematics not so much as hbar.]
@vzn Do the first few lines of that post remind you of the hbar? They do me.
 
vzn
vzn
@nitsua60 ps am not saying fully agree with the flag-system-criticizers.
@nitsua60 touche
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn I take that light-hearted, but in case it's not I want to make sure you know I'm not trying to score rhetorical points: I'm trying to point you toward things that make me worry about the hbar.
 
vzn
vzn
1:33 AM
anyway, some of my underlying motivation is that SE chat is one of my favorite parts of the site, and would like to see more rooms active, etc...
@nitsua60 agreed it seems to be an edgy or "more edgy" place than elsewhere. but like a "stew" its about the "ingredients". hence my mentioning/ pointing to the "regulars".
 
David Z
David Z
@vzn The possible unfairness of the flagging system is a separate issue from the appropriateness of the messages people are posting.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn I agree it's not your responsibility to deescalate. I would offer that you (among others) have both the opportunity and the ability to help steer the room in a more positive direction.
 
David Z
David Z
^^ well said
 
vzn
vzn
@nitsua60 not arguing with that.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn No, frankly, haven't heard much said positively about the hbar. Note that's probably a non-signal, not a negative signal.
 
0celo7
0celo7
1:39 AM
Oh, the hbar is bad
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn And I should be clear: I don't have a strong sense of whether you, personally, are doing this already, or are pushing things in a bad way... I don't have much in my mental log for you. (Sorry.) This whole conversation ^^ just came up because I saw a thing where I thought "that didn't seem very helpful, let's tell them that and see how that goes."
 
vzn
vzn
@nitsua60 feel have been "caught in the crossfire" sometimes in the chat. am willing to think more about "de-escalation" etc. have seen you chat in the room now sometimes & think its cool, glad you can spare some time.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn I know the feeling.
 
vzn
vzn
@nitsua60 right, so that seems like a disconnect )( somehow because its a lively room that draws a lot of activity wrt other rooms.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@vzn You know what, though: my "main" room, RPG chat, sits about 57% of your activity. Same order of magnitude, in other words. And I've literally never seen a flag-storm there, and can't recall the last time I saw a flag. Maybe one or two in the last two years?
That's not activity level doing it, there are other things at play.
 
0celo7
0celo7
1:52 AM
@nitsua60 what's doing it?
 
vzn
vzn
> A famous apocryphal story is that Sutton was asked by reporter Mitch Ohnstad why he robbed banks. According to Ohnstad, he replied, "Because that's where the money is"
 
0celo7
0celo7
doesn't the math chat also have flag storms?
maybe the high level of intelligent discourse attracts flag trolls (theory)
 
vzn
vzn
↑ "hbar is where the chatters are"
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 Yes, but in my vague recollection not as much?
 
0celo7
0celo7
aren't we all here because of a math chat flag storm
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
1:54 AM
@0celo7 I think the regular chatizens in almost every site in the Network would be reasonable to take umbrage at that.
 
0celo7
0celo7
I said it's a theory
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 edgy young dudes
@nitsua60 ok. (again thinking of "regulars")
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
In my opinion?
(This is based on reading literally the *entire* transcript of that room at least once. I'm a completionist.)
There's enough activity to keep people coming back daily--probably two dozen daily chatizens with many going back years--but not so much that there's never a bit of quiet. That means the room does develop culture, but that there's time/space for the room to breathe, as it were.
The regulars are Nice. Not that we don't disagree--like nerds of any stripe, conflicts among interpreters of NWoD rules rise to near-religious levels of conflicts. But being Nice actually makes…
Those are the first things that come to mind.
(Oh, sorry. I think I read "what's doing it?" as a response to the wrong thing, so I answered the wrong question. That ^^ is an answer to "What's making RPG never have trouble?" rather than "what's making hbar have flag trouble?")
 
0celo7
0celo7
@nitsua60 Uh, I read that thinking you were talking about the hbar and agreed 100%
we clearly have very different views of the room
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 I would not describe the hbar that way. I have yet to see a regular come forward to say "could you please not, here's why" to someone, get pushback, then get support from the room.
(I can't recall seeing much of regulars saying "can you please not, here's why" at all. But the above is a sign of a strong, healthy room, IMO.)
 
0celo7
0celo7
2:09 AM
well yeah I thought that part was a bit strange, but I interpret that as us never having issues
indeed, the complaints seem to be from trolls or outside forces
and they're never discussed
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
I'm discussing them.
 
0celo7
0celo7
nah, you're not being specific at all
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 This entire conversation started with me addressing @vzn with a specific thing they said. Our conversation yesterday (was it yesterday) started with me quoting a specific thing you said.
 
0celo7
0celo7
Ah, well, I can't address that. I don't know if I'm serious about it or not.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
?? I'm not following.
 
0celo7
0celo7
2:14 AM
I don't know if I want the chat to end up like Mos Eisley.
It would be fun, sure, but at what cost?
 
David Z
David Z
@0celo7 Yeah, the hbar is not like what @nitsua60 was describing.
 
0celo7
0celo7
@DavidZ We don't have people calling people faggots
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 I should be open with you. A mod linked you the standard meta posts on "vulgarity's not allowed" and your responses were "I don't think that's what it says" and later (here) "they're just part of normal speech."
The other day you asked about your various chat-suspensions so I dug back and looked at them, including the messages and transcripts that occasioned them.
You say it'd be fun for hbar to become so disliked by SE staff that it is deleted.
This all reminds me of [A Day in the Penalty Box](https://stackoverflow.blog/2009/04/06/a-day-in-the-penalty-box/). A user whose behaviors …
 
0celo7
0celo7
Look, one of the mods in the h bar has said vulgarity is allowed and is at times vulgar himself. If this is wrong, please let the record be corrected somehow.
I'm getting bored of this. Are you going to ban me for that comment or why do you keep bringing it up? I didn't mean anything by it and I'm certainly not being disruptive enough to cause the room to be deleted.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
2:31 AM
@0celo7 I'd love to chat with that mod sometime, to clear up any misunderstanding I might have. In the meantime if it's your position that vulgar comments that shouldn't because of standing policy I suggest you bookmark that citation and provide it when the flags come. Because the people flagging clearly aren't getting that message. Nor are those validating them. (All of whom are following SE meta guidance.)
@0celo7 Which comment?
(Regardless, no one person will get a room deleted.)
 
0celo7
0celo7
@nitsua60 I have also been told not to flag every instance of cursing. For a time I did that, and tried to be very good myself, but that was apparently not welcome either.
Well, maybe not cursing myself was welcome (by some), but it was unsustainable for me.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Your not cursing wasn't welcome!?
(oh, nvm. sniped.)
 
0celo7
0celo7
@nitsua60 I can provide a situation where Balarka Sen said "fuck" to me several times, I alerted the mod instead of causing a flag storm, but he told me to not bother him.
 
David Z
David Z
Yeah, if that's in the chat transcript, could you link it?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 Okay. To be clear: this is a pattern of being told many times that cursing's fine, not just an isolated incident? Because you've been told repeatedly by flaggers and validators and moderators that it's not okay. Recognizing that any individual human may vary in their attention to/understanding of/application of a rule, where would you say the balance lies?
Is it ten times you've been told by a room-owner/moderator "keep doing that, you're fine" for every time you've been suspended, or the reverse, or somewhere in-between?
(I've got to go in about five minutes.)
 
0celo7
0celo7
2:41 AM
@nitsua60 **** if I know the ratio
I have no idea how many times I've been suspended
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 this reminds me of the "broken window" theory of crime. broken windows are not a big deal but leaving them unfixed seems to degrade the overall atmosphere. profanity is kind of like cyber "broken windows" in this sense. & your attitude is contradictory. you seem to suggest that you tried avoiding profanity, and that the enforcement was inconsistent, then therefore it was useless to avoid profanity. but thats very strange reasoning isnt it?
 
0celo7
0celo7
I don't think profanity should be avoided in general
It's an arbitrary concept
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 were you serious about going to a conference? have you given any talks yet at your school? you seem to allude to them in the transcript.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 Sure, but I'm asking for a reasonable estimate, based on imperfect recollection, and I'll trust you to do your best, and I'll never hold you to the number in a court of law. My point, though, is that I hear you holding up (so far as has been identified) one instance of being told 'it's okay' in the face of many other instances of 'it's not okay'. Which doesn't really fly. So I assume there's something I don't know. Like "no, actually, I was told it's fine a thousand times."
 
0celo7
0celo7
@vzn 8 seminar talks
@nitsua60 You know the saying "one 'aw shit' wipes out a thousand 'attaboys'"?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
2:45 AM
@0celo7 Yeah, that's not quite what what ACM said, though, is it. He addressed two people and asked them to drop the back-and-forth that preceded.
 
0celo7
0celo7
I'm taking the dual approach to this one
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 and whats your take on use of profanity in the talks?
 
0celo7
0celo7
@vzn dunno, nothing special
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 I actually hadn't heard that one. What's the intent?
 
0celo7
0celo7
@nitsua60 People remember mistakes more than successes, or something. The meaning can vary.
 
vzn
vzn
2:47 AM
@0celo7 did you use any profanity? have you ever heard a math talk with profanity? how do you think that would "go over" with your audience?
 
0celo7
0celo7
My father used to tell it to me when I got horrible grades in math
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Makes sense. What made you think of it here?
@0celo7 Do you want to know?
 
0celo7
0celo7
@nitsua60 Let me guess.
150 times?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Closer to 90. (From chat. I don't know anything about mainsite suspensions off my elected site.)
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 sorry to hear that but suggest you talk to your advisor about the use of profanity & see if he agrees with your stated sentiments.
 
0celo7
0celo7
2:48 AM
@vzn I've heard "shit" in lectures a bunch
I can't recall someone using profanity in talks, but who knows
Definitely a couple in the seminar I run (but not by me)
@vzn My advisor has been known to like profanity.
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 lol maybe you were made for each other. cant imagine him using it in a talk. honestly, did see a recent SXSW keynote that had quite a bit. found it somewhat jarring myself. large audience. recorded on youtube. the lecturer said he got some feedback, wonder if any was on the profanity.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 I will report that in the hundreds of physics colloquia and seminars and conference talks I've attended I believe there were zero profanities.
 
0celo7
0celo7
Seems strange, every now and then something will slip out
What counts as profanity
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 you talk about it "slipping out" but you also said you tried avoiding it. again, contradictory/ inconsistent thinking there.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 Things I'm sure I'd have noticed would include at least "shit," "hell," "ass," "fuck," "god-damn," "piss," "dick," and everything "worse."
In any case, I gotta run. Night, all.
 
0celo7
0celo7
2:53 AM
People say "hell" all the time
 
vzn
vzn
@nitsua60 lol geez something to quote in hbar for future ref :P this is starting to remind me of a famous carlin monologue
 
0celo7
0celo7
I should flag that...
@vzn I know it by heart!
 
vzn
vzn
lol then all hell will break loose :P o_O
@0celo7 @#%& shoulda guessed that
 
0celo7
0celo7
he did it in the wrong order
it's p s f c cs mf t
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 In physics seminars/colloquia/conference talks? Not in my experience. Vulgarities, in my estimation, tend to stem from speech that's not trying to actually be accurate or precise. Which are the opposite of what I've tended to see from professional physicists presenting their work.
 
vzn
vzn
2:55 AM
@0celo7 lol you say that like youre a connoisseur :P
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@0celo7 What's the "t"? (Put it in quotes so that if it gets flagged everyone knows you didn't mean it.)
 
0celo7
0celo7
"tits"
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
And is the "c" a four-letter one?
 
0celo7
0celo7
yes
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
oof.
 
0celo7
0celo7
2:56 AM
but not the same c as in cs
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
right.
 
vzn
vzn
my thinking on profanity is that its like "(cosmetic) appearance". eg the way the presenter dresses conveys part of the message. torn blue jeans, old shoes, etc convey something different than nice clothes. did you ever improve your clothes for one of your talks, @0celo7? did your advisor advise anything along those lines? does he wear nicer clothes for talks etc, have you seen other lecturers do the same etc? ofc a similar principle holds for interviews etc.
 
0celo7
0celo7
@nitsua60 I can be very precise and say hell.
Like asking a rhetorical question "well we don't know what the hell happens with this gradient term, but by adding an epsilon we can do Harnack, blah blah"
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
What information did that word add to the question?
(Btw that's rhetorical--I really do have to head out. Night, all.)
 
0celo7
0celo7
@vzn no these are informal talks in the intra-group seminars
@nitsua60 no information
not every word adds information
 
vzn
vzn
2:59 AM
↑ recently found by my sig other, do admit to rofling
@0celo7 youve had a few interviews by now right? did you chg your clothes? did you get advice to watch your language?
 
0celo7
0celo7
If you think I swear like a sailor, you're mistaken
 
vzn
vzn
@0celo7 am sure the transcript proves otherwise. (choose not to engage in that exercise but encourage you to.)
 
0celo7
0celo7
maybe
 
David Z
David Z
@0celo7 I believe that was nitsua60's point, that the word doesn't add information and therefore precise speech calls for leaving it out.
 
0celo7
0celo7
I think it adds something stylistically
 
 
6 hours later…
Balarka Sen
Balarka Sen
9:19 AM
@nitsua60 Ok, but I still, genuinely don't see what was unwelcoming other than what Zee said.
Can you point to something concrete?
I'm not trying to be difficult; I just see that quid's concern was responded with nonchalant jokes. Is that really a breach of Be Nice and a demonstration of disrespect?
It's never really clear to me what Be Nice entails.
In any case, thanks a lot for engaging in this conversation. Usually the users are kept on a dark when a situation like this occurs and are told to "move on": I know dwindling on a single chaotic event just calls for more chaos-mongering, but discourse is so much more helpful.
 
 
5 hours later…
nitsua60
nitsua60
2:28 PM
@BalarkaSen I'll dig back and be more specific about the "four-for-five" I was seeing; it may not be today, though, I'm pretty swamped.
 
Balarka Sen
Balarka Sen
For sure.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
3:00 PM
(And if I don't, don't be shy about pinging me to remind me. Thanks.)
 
 
7 hours later…
vzn
vzn
10:24 PM
in The h Bar, yesterday, by 0celo7
My plan to turn the math chat into the new Mos Eisley is proceeding nicely.
↑ 0celo7s new nickname: Dr Evil™ (his plan has already succeeded without notice in Physics) :P
 
David Z
David Z
@vzn I think that's either inappropriate, or at least in bad taste
 

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