Workplace 2014 Election

enderland

00:00

@Shog9 this somewhat concerns me regarding mod workload here:

in The Water Cooler, Mar 21 at 3:06, by jmort253

Everyone here has been incredibly patient, but I can tell you that any mods that get elected would be in danger of being burned out. This has been an intense few weeks.... :)

jmac

@enderland If you look at the graph that was just posted, you can see that the huge spike in flags has been pretty recent (probably since this meta post, sorry jmort). That combined with graduation created what I hope is a on-etime perfect storm.

enderland

Ah, hopefully :)

Seth

00:51

That's a big flag jump. How many mods does programmers need? If that trend continues you'll probably need more.

Monica Cellio

01:05

@jmac, carrying over from the Water Cooler, small wall of text coming right up:

I'd like some feedback. I believe that in some ways I'd make a good moderator: I'm active in user-moderation activities, active on the site in general, and am already a moderator elsewhere so I'm fluent in the general tools and processes. (Obviously each site has its own special cases.) I stay current on our meta and as current as feasible on MSO (go through the front page at least a few times a day).

Now the other side: I'm already a moderator elsewhere so TWP won't have my undivided attention. (Also, I will seek input from my fellow mods before running to make sure they don't have a problem with it.) My overall level of activity is probably not going to increase, so moderation will come at the expense of contributing content.

For the next few months I view the job as primarily about making up for the privs changes that came with graduation; I don't have the impression that this is normal for new grads. I'm viewing the job, at least for now, as "troubleshooter" more than anything else.

Also, while I think I'd do a good job and I like TWP (else why would I have 13k rep, almost 200 helpful flags, etc), I'm not gung-ho on being a moderator. I'm willing to do it. Y'all might expect a higher threshold of excitement in candidates.

One last thing: on Mi Yodeya I tend toward a very helpful, guiding commenting style with new users especially and I know that seeing that from a diamond carries weight; on TWP there's so much load there that I won't be able to do that fully, so the community's gonna have to help out there. (We do now; this is mainly a "that can't change" comment.) Mi Yodeya has a slower pace and a lighter load than TWP.

I've never been one to enter a "contest" with the intent to not carry it through; I'm not going to run now and drop out later during nominations. If I do this, I'm doing it.

Thoughts on any of that would be most welcome. (end wall of text)

jmac

01:53

@MonicaCellio In my opinion, this is something for the voters to decide. If the voters are okay with that style of moderation, then that is their choice. If not, they aren't. But I think it's a choice our community deserves to have -- I would rather have more people nominate themselves to give the community a choice of what set of mods they want as it will increase variety and choice. Perhaps we want 2 active mods and an exception handler, or 3 exception handlers, or some other combination.

By people not nominating themselves, that choice gets made for them, as people who would be good mods decide that they aren't the mod they would want to vote for, and take themselves out of the running regardless of what the rest of the community may think about their qualifications.

Monica Cellio

02:10

@jmac that makes sense. I guess if I'm really clear about what kind of moderation I'll be able to supply, the community can then decide if that's ok. Mostly I want to make sure that I'm neither signing up for more than I can do nor disappointing the community because I didn't do what they expected.

jmac

@MonicaCellio At the end of the day, we are all adults with real lives and other things going on. Each one of us has a level of contribution that we are comfortable with, and the election process isn't likely to change that. All we can do is to be honest about what level we intend to provide, and let the community decide what they value in a moderator.

Monica Cellio

@jmac that's true. Thanks.

jmac

@MonicaCellio I said it to @enderland, and I'll say the same to you -- I am not trying to force you to participate. I just want people who are willing and able to nominate themselves and give the community a choice. If you aren't willing or able, naturally, don't participate, but it sounds like your misgivings are because you are concerned you won't be mod enough (which is for the community to decide)

Monica Cellio

@jmac understood. And don't worry; you can't force me. :-) It's my decision, but I asked for input because I value it in making that decision.

jmac

02:34

@MonicaCellio (I may not be able to force you, but I certainly can cajole and otherwise be devious)

Chad

@Shog9 I think that it was a lot bigger of a problem when the site was smaller than it is now. Our bigger problem is not getting bad questions closed/edited before we get some of our more prolific users posting answers to the original bad question.

Monica Cellio

@jmac and similarly, I can't force you to keep your hat in the ring despite your comment about possibly withdrawing, but I can do my best to make you feel guilty about it if you do. :-)

Chad

rather than hot list questions getting swarmed with newcomers and me too answers... we get a few of those but we seem to handle those just fine now

But that is also just my view others disagree

jmac

@MonicaCellio I think a lot of our regulars are on the same fence. On one hand we want to support the community (as you put it, we are willing to do it), but on the other hand we know it's a huge task, and we all want to make sure our mods are active enough to handle the load and are unsure if we're right by that criteria.

Chad

@jmac Im on the fence about you actually. Not that I dont think you would make a great mod because I do. But because we also need strong voices in the community and if you go we lose that. As you pointed out you are probably the biggest poster on meta

jmac

02:41

Not probably, I am the biggest poster on meta. And my goal wouldn't be to dull the voice of the community, but to help the community find their voice. Nothing wrong with starting meta posts as a mod!

Regardless, this is something the community will have to decide. I'm on the fence about me too. We'll see who proffers themselves up as moderator candidates (read: human sacrifices), and make our decision from there.

Monica Cellio

@jmac there's also the trade-off of taking a higher-rep user out of the pool for stuff that should be done by the community (not by mods). When my vote is binding I'll be more conservative about it. (OTOH, being able to just clean up comments when I encounter them instead of flagging would be really handy.)

jmac

@MonicaCellio To be perfectly honest, I think that is less of an issue than everyone is making it out to be. Yes, the first few months will be tough, but afterwards we will have grown the number of high rep users to a point where they should be able to handle it themselves.

Monica Cellio

@jmac right, mods can and IMO should be active on meta. A question for every candidate is: are you going to increase your time on the site, or are you going to reallocate it? If the latter, what won't you be doing as much of now? What is the opportunity cost to the community of you becoming a mod?

jmac

@MonicaCellio I really like that question. Did you put it in the question post on meta? If not, you should! I have found that a lot of my time spent aggressively editing has been allocated to general cleanup, and I end up looking at fewer questions and providing far fewer answers than I did.

enderland

@Seth they have more active community non-mods with 20k rep

Monica Cellio

02:50

@jmac I haven't, because I just thought of it (or rather, just thought of how to distill that nagging feeling into a question). I'll add it.

enderland

@jmac it takes a loooong time to get into the 15k or 20k rep range

@Chad If I end up as a mod here somehow, you can expect meta thread after meta thread, "why was this closed by enderland with only a few other close votes?" heh

jmac

@enderland To be honest, I think we're overzealous with protecting questions. While I understand why people want to do it, I think that a lot of the time the issue is in the question rather than the answers, and we need to be better about closing -> editing -> reopening rather than just protecting and praying.

enderland

@jmac I only protect questions with at least two answers in "would be avoided by protection" territory and on their way to deletion

jmac

For the 20k tools, I think that the change shog is making will make it far easier to eliminate the poor stuff, and also reduce the flag burden on the new mods, even if we don't have the 20k user base to do it.

@enderland And to be honest, I think that our time may be a lot better spent looking at the questions and wondering why they collect such poor answers. I mean, yeah, sometimes we get a lot of horrid answers in a short span due to the hot list where protection is the right way to go, but some other questions just inspire poor answers because of the way they're phrased, and we can fix that.

enderland

@jmac biggest problem for me is when I'm busy enough that I can't spend the time to cohesively edit the question

that time needs to be right away

and it's not trivial to really edit a question

Chad

02:56

@enderland And I expect ill get in trouble alot for defending your actions in less than a politic manner... yeah its better if you dont :p

jmac

I've been more actively browsing the front page of late, and looking at the questions collecting those answers rather than handling the results through the flagging menu, etc. And I see a lot of questions with highly voted comments saying, "This ain't clear" but without close votes. That is very bad. It is just as easy to vote to close as it is to vote up a comment, so we should be doing the former more.

enderland

@jmac most of them have CVs only from me, chad, rhys, and CMW too (they get dropped in chat often)

jmac

Once a question is closed, then it can be edited. The issue is that we don't have a workflow for that, but we can share that info in Water Cooler or the like to create a simple list of stuff that we feel can be saved, so that someone with time can tackle it.

Chad

I think protection should expire in like 12 or 24 hours

that way we can protect questions that get hotlisted and bumped to the top for no good reason but have them open back up after the immediate need for the protection has passed

Seth

o_O

Chad

02:58

and give mods the ability to perma protect if needed

but I dont get to make unilateral decisions like that for SE for some reason

jmac

@Chad I think that's treating the symptom and not the cause. I mean, it'd work at preventing the symptom, but it's a kind of roundabout solution that doesn't make much sense when you really think about it.

Monica Cellio

@jmac here you go. I'm open to finding a way to combine this with Chad's question if people think that would be better.

jmac

Thanks @Monica! Now lunch time.

Chad

@jmac I think of it more as stopping the bleeding.

which lets us address the cause of the problem or lets the problem go away on its own

cause While I am all for making new users go through a test and having them demonstrate they understand how this site works, that would really break the growth model that also is a part of making this site work

@jmac the thing is people want to ask these questions, if we decide to unilaterally shut them down, then people will just stop asking questions all together. I am all for improving the questions but we really shouldnt stop them all together.

@jmac I think you forget that a large number of our users lost their VTC priveledges

But even before we graduated we have had a signifigant portion of our userbase that is in the edit first close only as a last resort crowd.

This is where I think that mods can help lead by example and get on questions like this and put them on hold early

I think that if they see the mods doing it people will start to emulate and eventually the correct actions will be the default actions of the userbase. At least that is my theory

Jim G.

@Rachel: Do you have any desire to be a mod? I think you'd do a great job.

Wait. Why isn't @jmort253 running again?

We need @jmort253 plus more.

Chad

03:20

@JimG. its only wed... he has not said one way or another if he will or not.

I said in the other room my hope is he and the other mods are just waiting for the weekend so as not to scare off any potential candidates

jmac

03:32

@Chad I was one of those users, and I've definitely changed my opinion on that. I now vote to close earlier, but that's more because I have less time to do aggressive edits with the general site moderation stuff I've been tackling daily. It's a tough balance.

Chad

@jmac If we could get some discipline in a few of our more high volume users to hold off on answering questions that need to be improved we could try a bit more edit first... I dont see that happening though.

jmac

@Chad I think it could be handled with better resources for both askers and answerers on what a good question is/what to answer/what to close.

jmort253

04:09

@Chad It wouldn't hurt for someone to mention that in a meta post, perhaps as a "Workplace SE plea for help". Maybe it could be worded in a way to encourage some of those users to come out of hiding and express any concerns they have... If we know what those concerns are, there might be a happy middle ground somewhere...

As an example, perhaps convincing those users to still answer, if they must, but also throw in a clarifying comment to help clarify the question and then be sure to "check in" to see if their answer needs to be updated.

RhysW

07:01

@jmort253 This would be much easier to implement if people who had posted an answer were alerted when the question was edited.

Otherwise trying to keep up with all of the questions you have an answer for and whether or not the answer still applies is difficult

Cleared flags to the mostly relevant stuff again, don't hate me I would have left them starred if it was the other room! :P

RhysW

11:45

I feel like i havent actually answered anyones questions in here yet. Anyone got any they'd like to fling at me? :)

gnat

@RhysW good moderator is one who isn't noticed. No questions indicate you got to be good. okay, the question: did you consider pointing out in the nomination that you're a mod at Astronomy?

RhysW

I considered it, but I ran out of words in my nomination (already had to cut out a sizeable chunk) so I decided to keep in the workplace specific points. The fields are different enough that I won't have to worry about conflicts of interest, Astronomy is small enough still that it won't be eating up large portions of my time. If Astronomy were a lot larger and a lot busier I would worry more about lack of time

gnat

12:01

@RhysW I see, thanks. So, you got to be already familiar with mod tools? For how long are you using these at Astronomy?

RhysW

@gnat Yeah fairly familiar, been using them for about 5 months now, maybe a little more than that. Though there are a lot i haven't yet had to use

enderland

13:15

@Shog9 how likely is it for workplace to have more than 3 moderators?

is this sort of thing even remotely feasible?

Chad

13:43

@jmort253 I agree but it needs to be someone with a diamond that says it. If I do it the result just tends to be thats your opinion and you are entitled to it, or that I am wrong.

@RhysW I have an ambivalent and ignominious attitude toward you now... but at least its not hate :p

RhysW

@enderland its feasable to have more than 3, its unlikely to start off as more than 3, though more can be requested / assigned if its agreed its needed

enderland

@RhysW my assumption is there would be much more interest in moderation here from the "busy users" if this was the case? maybe not

RhysW

More interest in modding if there were more open positions?

enderland

@RhysW it's less of a "committment" in some sense if there are more moderators

RhysW

Well that's the idea of giving high rep users more power, so they can take part in moderation duties without it being a 'commitment'

unless I have misunderstood your point

enderland

13:59

just more taking some time away is less problematic if there are 4/5 mods than 3

RhysW

that does make some sense, though the CM's do try to make it abundantly clear that it is a voluntary position. So if you need a long break you can have one, just let them know so they can make the needed arrangements for the site. They really do try hard to make sure people aren't working overly hard and burning out from fear of breaking commitments

enderland

14:13

I think this is a very important question given the current candidates are all fairly active non-moderators right now on the site. — enderland 58 secs ago

enderland

14:24

also, I just noticed this, others might have interest

I won't be running, as I can't be sufficiently active. I'd rather make way for the many qualified candidates the site has cultivated over the past couple of years. Congrats to all who guided this site through to this stage! — NickC ♦ 2 days ago

Chad

@enderland Disappointing but I understand. Nick has been here since day 1, weathered some pretty troubled times and helped us get here. great respect for all he has done

3

RhysW

@enderland Yeah its a shame that one of the existing mods is stepping down, though now hes free to try a lot of other stuff i imagine!

Shog9

15:16

@enderland yeah, that's... Not something worth cultivating. If we get three committed moderators and they need help, they'll get it. If we get 6 mildly-interested mods and stuff's not getting done... Then we're kinda screwed.

RhysW

That's sort of what I wanted to say, couldn't find the words :/

Shog9

15:38

@RhysW you're a candidate, hence you're being all diplomatic ;-)

@enderland not if you actually need 4/5 mods.

Lemme lay out a reasonably common scenario:

- Site needs 3 mods

- Site has 3 mods

- All are active

- One has other priorities, needs to be away for a week / month / quarter / whatever

- Someone from SE fills in short-term, then a new moderator is appointed (when feasible) or elected

- Life goes on

Now, here's another (unfortunately) common scenario:

- Site needs N mods

- Site has N+1 mods

- Site has N-1 active mods

- No one says anything, because, hey, there are N+1 mods, I don't really need to be here

- N-1 mods get overworked and burn out

gnat

15:57

@enderland now that you mentioned time away, I finally figured what made me feel we better have 4 mods than 3. With site exposure to hot list, moderation is like 24/7 duty, similar to SL3 support duties I carried in several past projects. And my dislike for duties split by 3 goes just from there, I thought it was fun (tough but fun), but that was when there were 4-5 shifts. It fully changed when I bumped into a project that had these duties split to 3 shifts...

...that totally ruined productivity! so yes, for site like ours your hesitation to moderate in 3 shifts makes perfect sense to me.

5

A: How to manage a developer who has poor communication skills

30/70 split may be where all your problems begin. I've never seen developers happy with split like that. I've seen developers being comfortable with 10, 15% other work (and been happy myself because it's fun when the dose is right) but 30% is too much. I'd rather think other team members prefer ...

^^^ spending about 30% time on a watch? no thank you

enderland

16:10

@Shog9 I guess I see that perspective making a lot of sense... thanks for those comments

RhysW

18:36

@Shog9 shh don't ruin it for me! :P

Monica Cellio

@gnat while the hot questions are a problem because of the forum/opinion/inexpert answers they bring in, I really don't see monitoring this 24x7 as either necessary or practical. If a question sits for a few hours until it's morning in the next mod's time zone, what harm is really done?

Maybe a mod has to delete 6 answers instead of 1 or 2, but AFAIK no other SE site expects instant fixes for stuff like this, and on a site that lets crap sit around for days or weeks I was told (by a CM) to stop worrying and just wait for the mods. Now I'm not saying we should wait days, but I think here it'll generally be cleaned up in a few hours and that feels good enough to me. What am I missing?

Shog9

18:55

anyone object to moving this conversation to the other room? Not really election-related.

Monica Cellio

@Shog9 good point. Fine with me.

Shog9

→ 23 messages moved to The Water Cooler

RhysW

ahh

was mid sentence :P

gnat

I don't insist on being right here, merely explain (probably, mostly to self) how come that I'm so uncomfortable about 3-shift moderation. It really reminds my own experience at that dreaded 3-shift project. 5 questions we typically have in hot list match 5 instances of our app. Just like in our app, things _usually_ run smooth, just like back then things occasionally blow up.

And just like back then, it's typically not much urgent, _few hours_ of slack are typically okay, just like you mentioned. But, somehow, these 3-shift duties managed to have a deadly effect on productivity. This didn…

Shog9

Keep in mind, moderators rarely have "shifts"

If you want a rough estimate of when folks will be available, you can find it in their chat profile

(assuming they're active in chat)

gnat

19:00

@Shog9 yeah sure. As if I can't see who and when handles my flags at Programmers. With about 5K flags and 10K privileges to see who and when deletes stuff, I've got plenty data points to see how things work :)

ChrisF tends to dislike when hundreds comments flags drop on his head on GMT morning

RhysW

@gnat Though a quick app could be whipped up to set off a 'gnat' alert so he knows when you pop in :P

Shog9

@gnat you have probably three different timezones and who knows how many different schedules at work there. Doesn't mean they're coordinating to ensure 24/7 coverage

RhysW

Just to reiterate what i said earlier now that more people are here, happy to answer any election related questions if you have any!

gnat

@Shog9 well yeah, as far as I can tell they don't coordinate explicitly / intentionally, it's more like organically grown repeated pattern, somewhat loose. But then, Programmers are less (I think about twice less than Workplace) exposed at hot list, which makes it less important

Shog9

Moderator flag handling by hour for the past 90 days on Programmers:

gnat

19:07

...and there are 5 mods at Programmers, not 3, which makes it even less important

Transcript for

Workplace 2014 Election