Discussion on answer by Timur Shtatland: What exactly are the stated objectives of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine?

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08:52

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A: What exactly are the stated objectives of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine?

As an addition to the excellent, but slightly incomplete, and somewhat lacking all the necessary context, other answers here, here is my answer to the OP (to be expanded with references later). The stated objectives of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, viewed in the context of the past and pr...

Fizz

Yeah, but some of those are gripes rather than stated objectives of the war. Insofar he hasn't stated he wants to annex all of Ukraine (in fact he stated the opposite), despite the talk of being the same people etc. And likewise for the leadership. It's been widely speculated that Putin wanted to get rid of Zelensky's government with the quick push on Kyiv, but insofar that hasn't been a stated objective.

alamar

I don't think that USA prevents other languages than English from being used. Ukraine does just that. Canada with its Quebec is more like Ukraine, and the Ukrainian situation is as if the Quebec francophonie-protecting laws were extended to the whole Canada, and then enforced.

Timur Shtatland

@Fizz I am only adding context to the stated objectives to provide the big picture of the historical objectives, as facts on the ground. One can say that the stated objectives of Adolf Hitler were to expand the Germany into territory of the Slavic states (see his "official" work, "Mein Kampf"). But for proper historical context, Hitler's apparent objectives (aims, goals, gripes, etc) as facts on the ground included destruction of Great Britain's civilians, occupations of (non-Slavic) France, Austria, Belgium, etc, total elimination of the Jews on the occupied territory, etc.

@alamar On this site we try to be mostly objective. Could you please provide references? Re my sources: My friends in Ukraine spoke Russian freely in Ukraine (and with me), and never complained to me about the Ukrainian policy to make Ukrainian a state language. They were not prohibited from speaking Russian. They spoke it in fact even while they were leaving Ukraine due to shelling and bombing of Putin's army, whose stated objectives included helping Russian speakers speak Russian. Now my friends are war refugees and internally displaced persons - ironically, still speaking Russian.

alamar

lenta.ru/news/2020/03/13/nerusskiy "Vladimir Zelensky signed the law "On full general Secondary Education", which eliminates Russian-language schools in the country starting from September 2020" - this only finishes the transition which began in the 90s. Imagine closure of all English schools in Canada (or even Quebec for that matter)

Timur Shtatland

@alamar This is what your ref says: "Отныне школьники из русскоязычных семей с пятого класса должны изучать на украинском языке не менее 80 процентов предметов. Программы обучения на русском отменяются." = "From now on students from Russian-speaking families, starting from 5th grade, must study in Ukrainian at least 80% of the subjects. Russian study programs are canceled." Your comment says: "I don't think that USA prevents other languages than English from being used. Ukraine does just that." Could you pls provide the ref for this? And pls expand re Canada (analogy not clear). Thx.

alamar

08:52

Canada is bilinguistic country, especially in the Quebec state. Quebec has laws which favor French language but not at cost of openly discriminating English. Ukraine is bilinguistic country with monolinguistic poles and gradient in between. But its government used all means to openly favor one of languages, which is Ukrainian, by the means of restricting Russian usage by its speakers. Not going to search links WRT Canada/USA since it's not relevant for the question.

wrod

@TimurShtatland is this all schools or only government schools? Private schools are legal, are they not?

Timur Shtatland

@alamar "by the means of restricting Russian usage by its speakers." Could you pls provide the ref? My friends' and my own usage of Russian was not restricted in any way. Many of us were and are Russian speakers. I had spent a lot of time in Western Ukraine (mostly Ukrainian-speaking) and in the capital Kyiv, speaking openly 100% Russian, and found no restrictions. Canada & Switzerland are multilingual. But most countries with big minorities, e.g., France, USA, Germany, etc have the right, & exercise it to be monolingual. No law says: minority languages must be state languages.

alamar

Not being able (being forbidden) to use your language in school is a major restriction. It is not observed for very small languages, but for a language with large population it is a clear sign of discrimination. No other arguments are necessary, and this one can't be overturned with "but we don't feel oppressed". People in Donbass and Crimea certainly did.

Timur Shtatland

@wrod The ref that alamar provided says nothing about private schools, home schools, parochial schools, etc. I will be happy to discuss those with anyone in a mostly objective, friendly fashion. AMA!

@alamar Just to reiterate what I was asking: "by the means of restricting Russian usage by its speakers." Could you pls provide the ref?

alamar

Not being able to use your language in classroom is a restriction on its usage. Ukraine not merely helps Ukrainian-speaking citizens study in it, but force it on Russian-speakers as well.

wrod

08:52

@alamar if it's a government school, why wouldn't it want to teach the students in that country's language? That's hardly unusual even if their native language is something else. Actually allowing 20% of the lessons to be in their first language seems pretty accommodating. NY public schools have taught everyone in English for about 100 years before any bilingual programs were even considered. And NY has always been a city of immigrants whose 1st language was English.

NoSenseEtAl

downvoted for "something similar to the efforts of the US to have English as the #1 state language in the US", it is as similar as apple and truck.

Timur Shtatland

@NoSenseEtAl TY for your comment & criticism! I suspect that this part is not the only objectionable part of my post. How can I improve my post? What evidence would you accept when I try to justify "The Ukrainian attempts to have Ukrainian language as the #1 language in Ukraine"? Note: (a) my own knowledge of Ukrainian is rather poor, even though I lived in Ukraine (USSR) before 1988, (b) I always spoke Russian while spending a lot of time in Kyiv and in the (heavily ethnically Ukrainian) Western Ukraine, (c) most countries have minorities, but keep only 1 state language (majority), not 2.

alamar

@wrod it is a clear-cut example of discrimination and open assimilation. The government which did this, no longer controls a large part of its country.

wrod

@alamar it's not discrimination. It's the opposite of it. It's a universal standard.

alamar

It's not a standard in Belgium, Switzerland or even Spain. Why should it be, in Ukraine? Even in Italy there's bilinguistic Trentino-Südtirol.

Ruslan

08:52

@alamar is such a conversion of a country from full bilinguality to ≤20%-second-language the first time in history? Or have there been precedents to compare with? I can certainly see how Russian speakers may feel oppressed when status quo changes against them, but I'd like to learn of historical examples of such changes happening elsewhere.

BCLC

Thanks Timur Shtatland! Love the 'left as an exercise to the reader'. Never thought I'd see that in SE sites besides maths, physics, stats, etc. Wait I realised I forgot something. Ok so Putin wants so and so for political objectives but what exactly are the military objectives of the invasion: like bomb certain buildings or places until Zelenskyy says like 'ok fine, you win. We'll talk' ?

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Discussion on answer by Timur Shtatla…