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01:46
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Q: Are there any linguistic factors that influence the degree to which a language accepts loanwords?

alcasObviously, the degree to which loanwords enter a language is highly influenced by culture - for instance, a community which has a lot of contact with another culture, through which many new objects / concepts are introduced, will want to have words for those things. But I was wondering if there ...

 
18 hours later…
19:19
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Q: Exists there a language in which the patient of transitive verbs and the single argument of intransitive verbs are treated alike?

JarrodI am somewhat familiar with (not at all learned of)the morphosyntactic criteria by which many languages are classified--such as the system by which the grammatical abstractions of agent, argument, and patient are treated-- and descried of the criteria potency unto a numerosity of classes yborn o...

 
3 hours later…
22:27
the question about morphosyntactic alignment by Jarrod is written in some amazingly dense though perfectly grammatical English. I can't tell if he's a non-native speaker using a dictionary or translation tool, a native speaker playing a game, or some kind of AI!
@MarkBeadles A native speaker, most likely.
But "exists there"...
Is that grammatical?
I think it's barely acceptable. Usually y/n question inversions use "Do". It was that line that made me question if it was a native speaker or not.
His comment is also amazing: "Opprobrium befits my assay at querenthood..."
yes, the word choice is bewildering.
I'm still trying to figure out what it means
hehe
22:36
It means "my attempt at a question is worthy of being disparaged" ;0
I ....think.
Long sentences, as well
That's not common in English
common enough in academic speech, or in those trying to seem learned.
it seems 'artificial'
and 'yborn' is just simply an archaic form. i wonder what this person is playing at...the content of the question itself is pretty basic.
By the way, @Jarrod, you'll be very welcome here, if you're feeling chatty ;-)
22:56
good evening
Hi, @Tames!
@OtavioMacedo I received my GEB today! I began reading it already.. it is amazing
It is! I knew you'd like it.
it seems like one of those books that make a mark on the reader for a lifetime
:)
There are lectures on youtube about it.
22:59
it makes me want to create some music as well hahah
I haven't watched any yet.
oh! I'll look for them
Do you play any instrument?
I can play piano, sweet flute and guitar. I have played some drums and some exotic instruments like digeridoo and jew's harp... I tried to learn violin, but gave up quickly
I guess I'm not a very good player, but I've got a good "ear"
23:04
I enjoy making music, but I don't dedicate myself too much to it
hi @DavidWallace, thanks for the compliment
Hey, I hope I'm not interrupting. Tames, I wanted to say how impressed I was by your drawings. They're magnificent.
Hi, Otavio.
I saw your message! thanks!
^.^
Hi, David!
And now, it turns out you're a musician too. It seems you are quite the polymath.
@DavidWallace perhaps I'm a very undecided person!
23:07
Hmm. Lots of people are in that category. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
@OtavioMacedo do you know if it is common a confusion between "time" and "weather" in languages? maybe only in latin ones?
And Slavic!
Hmm, there was a question about this here
9
Q: Is there a single origin for the connection between time and weather?

GillesThere are several families of languages where the same word can mean either a concept closely related to time or a concept closely related to weather: Romance root: French temps, Italian tempo, Spanish tiempo, … Slavic root: Bulgarian време, Croatian vrijeme, Romanian vreme, … Celtic root: Gael...

@DavidWallace I think I like to learn all kinds of things, but then I don't know what to do with them
@OtavioMacedo nice! thanks
@Tames Sometimes, I feel similarly.
Then, the need to earn a living takes over.
23:11
@DavidWallace do you enjoy your work?
Sometimes. Not always. My current contract is a little boring. I'm working for a big bank; and I feel like a cheap sell-out.
This particular bank employs hundreds of programmers. Like, I'm just one of the crowd. I don't feel like I'm making any contribution to the world, like I should be. Does that make any sense?
@OtavioMacedo I'm studying logic... and there it says that propositions with indeterminate (?) subject are either meteorologic or chronologic. Curious, isn't it
@DavidWallace I feel the same.
@DavidWallace working for a bank... even if you were the single programmer, wouldn't be a contribution to the world lol
Yeah, that's true.
But it pays the bills.
One must feed one's family and pay for one's house.
23:17
sure!
what kind of contribution to the world would you like to make?
@Tames In every pro-drop language?
@OtavioMacedo what is 'pro-drop'?
Languages that accept clauses without a subject.
Like Portuguese
Hey, @Gigili, welcome back!
Why is there a relationship between being pro-drop, and using the same word for time and weather?
I see you are cluttering the page up with nonsense.
@OtavioMacedo Hi. Thank you, I missed you too.
23:19
@OtavioMacedo I'm not familiar with this... the book I'm reading is very basic, it only says that propositions with indeterminate subjects refer to weather or time
@Gigili Don't talk to Tames and Otavio like that!
hi @Gigili, long time no see
@DavidWallace Actually, I was talking to you.
Hi, Tames.
@OtavioMacedo it is not specific about language.. so I don't know
@Gigili No, sorry, I think there's been a mistake.
23:21
Oh, how does it define "indeterminate"?
@Tames Oh, so when I say "it's snowing" or "it's getting late" - that's what is meant by "indeterminate subject"?
@DavidWallace You think so and you're wrong, as always.
@DavidWallace I don't know, I found it curious that it stated this and I remembered the confusion between "weather" and "time" in some languages
@Gigili I really hate you, you know?
@DavidWallace I hate you more. My hatred is going to overflow one of these days.
23:22
@Tames Right. I guess the confusion existed in Latin and in Proto-Slavic, so it shows up in all Latinic and Slavic languagese today. But my question is whether the confusion between "weather" and "time" is related to the fact that both are the "default subject" when the subject is indeterminate.
@OtavioMacedo a subject without a "content".. it doesn't go further
@Tames The more I think about it, the more I'm pretty sure it's like the two sentences in my earlier comment.
I thought you couldn't think.
@DavidWallace yes.. in portuguese it is like that, when you say "it is raining"
@Gigili That just shows how little you know, or how little you apply yourself.
@Tames Sure, I think it's like that in all Latinic languages. But not Slavic ones.
So, in Bosnian, for example, we say "rain is falling".
But in French "it is raining".
23:25
@DavidWallace we may say that too, " a chuva cai", but it is different from "chove"
in "a chuva cai", the subject is "chuva", so it is not indeterminate
but is the meaning the same?
hmm
@Tames in Portuguese, grammarians usually differentiate between "clauses without a subject" and "indeterminate subjects"
"Chove" doesn't have a subject.
@DavidWallace Wouldn't be bothered to know more about such an unimportant thing.
"Falaram mal de você" has an indeterminate subject
23:27
It just seems to me that the "indetermiate subject" thing (as in English, French and Portuguese) probably developed independently from the "time weather confusion" thing; since the latter is not found in English, but is found in Slavic languages.
@DavidWallace there's a big discussion on this, in logic.. what does it mean to say "it is raining"... "the rain is raining"? "rain is falling"? I'm not sure
@Tames I can't see how this relates to logic.
@Gigili Wouldn't be bothered? More like too odious.
It is.
@OtavioMacedo It does seem to be more a question of linguistics than of logic.
23:28
@OtavioMacedo maybe we would say that in "chove" the subject is "inexistente", isn't it? and not "indeterminado"
Well, I ignored you for now.
@Gigili I always ignore you. You're so hideous, you can't imagine how much I hate you.
Let it be a lesson to others.
Oh, it's so beautiful to see how much you love each other, @David and @Gigili!
3
Surely "indeterminado" + "pro-drop" = "inexistente" ?
23:29
@OtavioMacedo because propositions must be analysed in the relation between subject and predicate, there are different theories on this... you should know what the subject is, so that you can make a judgment on the validity of the proposition
@DavidWallace la la la la I'm not listening to you.
@OtavioMacedo I flagged that for your own attention.
@Gigili Did somebody say something? I didn't hear anything!
But even if you say that the indeterminate subject is a placeholder for the weather, it still doesn't really make sense. You can't say "the weather is raining".
Obviously.
I have no idea why you talk about "it is raining" in summer. It just can't be.
@Tames Hmm, but "it rains" and "chove" mean exactly the same thing, don't they?
Apart from the aspect issue?
23:32
And yet, they are grammatically different.
"It rains" doesn't stand alone as a sentence in English.
Oh, sorry.
"It's raining"
But you can say things like "It rains every day", or "I will stay inside if it rains".
@DavidWallace why is that?
Of course, I don't know what sentences you can say "chove" in.
23:33
@OtavioMacedo uh.. what is your point?
@Tames That the validity of a sentence shouldn't change according to the language.
@Tames I don't know. The present tense in English is all messed up.
By the way, "chove" is a bit awkward in modern Portuguese, as well.
@OtavioMacedo maybe it doesn't... maybe there are languages in which people say "rain is falling", and this is similar to portuguese, not characterized as an absence of subject.. but some languages may allow a construction without subject
"Está chovendo" is better.
As in English.
23:36
@OtavioMacedo but is it wrong? there's a poem from F. Pessoa that begins like that
I don't know anything about Portuguese, but I suspect Spanish is going the same way as English - using the construction with estar in place of the simple present.
"Chove? nenhuma chuva cai..."
Well, Pessoa lived in the beginning of the 20th century in Portugal, and wrote poetry.
I mean, in modern Brazilian Portuguese, in everyday speech.
@OtavioMacedo I know.. yes.. it sounds poetic.. like "anoitece"...
@OtavioMacedo in general we rarely use the present tense like this, isn't it? in general we use the "gerundio"
someone will rarely say "leio um livro"
except if it is a profession like "faço mapas"
funny.. because it seems people will use the present to things they do with some frequency, and not to something they are actually doing in the present
Yes, the same aspect distinction found in English.
Habitual vs. progressive.
23:41
It's interesting that the aspects are grouped differently in Slavic languages.
we could say "Chove muito em Curitiba" then, it wouldn't sound poetic or strange
Like, I think there are basically three aspects - perfective, progressive and habitual. In Slavic languages, progressive and habitual are grouped together and perfective is different. In English and the Latinic languages, perfective and habitual are grouped together and progessive is sometimes different (always for English).
@DavidWallace what is perfective?
Umm, when something happens just once, at a fixed moment in time.
It only occurs in the past, the future, or in a subordinate clause.
@Tames like our preterito perfeito.
23:45
Yesterday, it rained. Tomorrow it will rain. I will carry an umbrella if it rains.
Actually, "rain" is a terrible example, because "rain" by its very nature doesn't happen at one moment in time.
Yesterday, I ate fish. Tomorrow, I shall eat fish. My breath will smell if I eat fish.
@DavidWallace but this may happen several times.. maybe a good example would be "John Lennon died" hah
Right, but in a Slavic language, you'd need a different verb.
There are verbs that can only be used perfectively, and other verbs that can only be used progressively, or for repeated or habitual actions.
@DavidWallace would "to die" be such a verb in Slavic? (only used perfectively)
Although I may eat fish several times, when I say "yesterday I ate fish", I'm probably only talking about a single occasion yesterday.
@Tames Well, I think there would be two verbs. Just a moment.
@DavidWallace oh, I see
23:52
Gotta go now, people!
In one Slavic language, I can only find one verb for "die", which kind of makes sense.
See you later
Obviously, it's a perfective one. There may be a non-perfective verb too, but it would be kind of obscure.
@OtavioMacedo bye!
I think that if you wanted to say "Every day, soldiers die in Afghanistan", you'd need a non-perfective verb. To say "John Lennon died in 1980", you'd need a perfective verb.
So in Slavic languages, verbs tend to come in pairs. We non-Slavs invariably use the wrong one.
23:54
@DavidWallace it doesn't matter it they are not the same soldiers?
@Tames It matters to the soldiers! :-) Umm, no, seriously, I think you still have to use a non-perfective verb. I'm not certain. I'll have to ask a Slav.
There's one in the ELU room right now, hold on.
@DavidWallace nice, thanks
He hasn't answered. He must be asleep.

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