« first day (284 days earlier)      last day (4529 days later) » 
00:00 - 16:0016:00 - 00:00

00:01
Yes. I think your examples require the noun to be an abstract noun, not a common noun. A man is already a man, otherwise we don't call him that. But that's a different question from whether beauty can be made more beautiful, or love can be made more lovely.
i think @OtavioMacedo and @Cerberus must be sick of this already lol
I don't care what Otavio and Cerby are sick of. If they come here, they get to listen to whatever I choose to ramble about.
why do you see it as different?
hahahah
Because your question talks about beauty as a concept, not a specific object such as a man. I guess I see "making mankind as a whole more manly" as fitting the concept you're describing; but not "making Cerberus (or any other specific man) more manly".
but when someone says "beautify beauty", possibly what I'm doing is taking a concept as an object
00:04
But are you talking about Beauty generally, or a specific person's beauty?
beauty in general.. that's the point. I think I could only make a person or an object more beautiful.
I cannot make beauty more beautiful
Right. Can we make mankind more manly?
hm.... to me, mankind sounds like "humanity", and "man" is only a part of it
Maybe "manhood" is a better parallel to "beauty" than "mankind" is.
yes, I guess so
00:10
I don't think I can add anything to the answers that are already there; or provide any useful comments. But I have upvoted both the question and Otavio's answer.
thank you!
as you see, people didn't vote it neither up nor down and didn't criticize it as well. it was ignored, mostly
the other person that voted it up was probably @OtavioMacedo or @Cerberus
I don't think it was ignored. You got some intelligent answers, some of which had a lot of effort behind them.
Danlei didn't get my point, and Michael thought there was no point. Pichael only eliminated some possibilities but didn't touch the problem. Only Otavio really touched it
of course, I appreciate the efforts of all of them
To be fair to all those people, your point was a difficult one.
well, I guess I found out now that it really is difficult
00:18
Err, OK. Did you initially think it was an easy question?
yes.. because I'm not very knowledgeble of logic.. I thought someone who studied logic would quickly give me an answer
It seems to me that a lot of the people on the philosophy site use a lot of hot air, without understanding very much at all.
hey.. voting me up, are you
thanks
Only where you deserve it.
Actually, I ran across the "fair coin" question by accident.
It seemed interesting. Then your answer had a slant to it that the others lacked. Hence the upvote.
recognition is much appreciated, either way
00:27
Really? I think reputation on the SE sites is kind of meaningless.
i consider myself to be an amateur in philosophy, i'm surprised everytime i get an upvote there
why do you think it is meaningless?
Because it doesn't really measure anything.
well, so why do you vote?
Like, it measures how long you've been using a site, how many interesting questions you've asked, how good your answers have been, how popular you are, and so on. So by measuring all these different things, it ceases to measure anything accurately at all.
I vote to move answers up and down.
that was not very convincing lol
00:31
I am considering only the future users of the site, who are more likely to go along with an answer that has been upvoted.
so you are making selections, that means something
you are saying "this is worth reading", at least
Yes.
The green tick makes a difference too.
Lots of people aren't going to read every answer to a question; just the one that has the green tick.
But I really don't care about any single person's reputation on any site. Even my own.
I guess some people only upvote things that already got a lot of votes.. it is a general tendency to vote on what is more popular
specially if there's already one with the green tick
And that's entirely pointless, in my opinion. If the answer is already at the top, it's not going anywhere higher.
and some people just go about downvoting without commenting.. i don't know why they do that. Do you do that?
00:39
Hahaha! Are you trying to assess my character?
no! I'm trying to understand these people
If someone else has commented on why an answer is bad, I might downvote it without commenting. But if there's no existing comment, I will always add one.
are you afraid of psychoanalysts? lol
Downvoting without commenting is just rude.
well, we agree on that
00:40
@Tames I have nightmares about psychoanalysis :-)
I got downvoted twice in the same answer without comments, so I posted a comment myself saying "if you are planning on downvoting this, please comment, thank you"
lol
And did they?
nothing happened yet
what does a nightmare about psychoanalysis is like??
have you ever seen an analyst?
many people are afraid of analysts or psychologists in general
as if we did black magic or something like that
mindreading
etc
"we". Hmm. So now you expose your profession! Once you know I'll be terrified!
it is just a misconception, possibly caused by terrible analysts and psychologists..
I'm a student yet... but yes, I may consider myself a psychoanalyst
people are afraid the analyst will know the ultimate truth about you, and there's none actually
people would be very disappointed if they knew this lol
of course, the analyst has some knowledge, but it is not what people expect
00:46
The whole psychoanalysis industry would come crashing down!
the truth is, analysis is unpleasant. that's why people prefer to take medicine instead
You think analysis is unpleasant? That's an interesting point of view.
of course it is.. specially to the neurotic... as for the psychotic, life is hell already, so analysis can't make it any worse
So why do you think so many people seek therapy?
it depends on what you consider "therapy", psychoanalysts usually say psychoanalysis is not psychotherapy
most psychotherapies will confort you, make you feel good, say "oh, you are beautiful, give me a hug"
a psychoanalyst will say "i'm not your mother", precisely
00:50
Really?
it is a metaphor... the analyst will not say those words,
Yeah, I got that. It makes the whole business seem, a bit, insincere somehow.
usually the person is expecting this, and part of the analytic process is denying this, the analyst is not in that position
why?
it is not insincere. it is just that analysis is much about transference (these projections)... after you realize this, you can work on other things
My manager at work periodically tells me he's not my mother. I don't pay him $200 per hour to tell me that though.
but it is not so simple. because it can't be rationalized. even if you've studied psychoanalysis, when you are there, doing analysis, you do not realize what you are doing.. when you do realize, well, probably the analysis is over
do you think he is your mother?
do you act as if he were?
00:54
And I know where I can get rather more than "you are beautiful, give me a hug" for the same rate. :-)
hahah
Actually, I treat him better than I treat my mother, but that's a whole other story.
and not one that I'm going to share with you, sorry.
lol
the thing is.. an important factor is how much considerate you are about this person... if someone you love says you are an asshole, it will affect you differently than if an asshole says you are an asshole
it changes everything
So I can pay a psychoanalyst to tell me I'm an arsehole, and not be so upset about it because I don't love him/her?
whatever you pay your analyst for, if he is a good analyst, he probably won't give it to you
now you see why people don't like psychoanalysis
lol
of course, I'm oversimplifying here
00:59
So a good analyst is one who keeps his/her customers for a long time, rather than curing them?
this is not about time... if you don't drop it, it means there's really something going on
it is a type of relationship
a special one
very special, indeed
almost magical
If you told your patients that up front, would they choose you as an analyst or as a therapist?
usually people want to be comforted. they want to come to you and say bad things about the world and hear you confirm that s/he is the good guy and the others are bad guys,
psychoanalysis will not do that, but of course it cannot just deny what you are saying, because you wouldn't come back
it is not about saying you are wrong, but that you are probably being very unilateral
(i'm not sure if this word exists in english?)
but psychoanalysis is much more than this,
it is about an ethical duty... about not saying to you what you must do. It is hard not to.
usually we "know" what is good for the other person
"if he would just do that..." etc
I have to go. Lunch time. Lovely talking to you. See you later.
ok David! likewise
are you there @Cerberus? you've been away for long
@DavidWallace I was only opposing psychoanalysis and psychotherapy. I hope I didn't make psychoanalysis sound like a stupid thing. It is all about desire and fantasies... after getting acquainted with this, you realize there's nothing ordinary in the ordinary life, it is like entering an altered state of consciousness
01:40
Poem by Marc Chagall
translated from the French by Neil Young

The country which is in my soul
Is mine alone.
I enter without a passport.
Like me,
It knows my sadness
And my solitude.
It numbs me
And shrouds me with its heavy scent.
For me the gardens flower.
Flowers are my creation.
The streets belong to me
But there are no houses,
They were destroyed in early childhood.
Its inhabitants roam in the air
In search of a home;
They dwell in my soul.
For this reason I smile
When my sun is barely shining,
Or I cry
Like a light rain
In the night.
There was a time when I wore two heads.
There was a time when these two faces
Covered themselves with an amorous dew
And were based on the scent of a rose.
Now it seems the same
To me when I return.
I look ahead
Towards a high portal
Behind which some walls spread themselves
Where faded thunder sleeps
And light breaks through.

The country which is in my soul
Is mine alone.
I think that would probably be much more beautiful in French.
do you speak french?
i love this poem
i haven't read the original yet
Only a small amount. But I consider English to be a truly ugly language for poetry.
I haven't read much poetry in english.. but I don't know why it shouldn't work
it seems that poetry is always better in it's original language, no doubt about it... but if the original language is english, then it should be fine
take Poe's for example (The crow), it is amazing
have you read that?
English is such an ugly patchwork of different languages; it doesn't really have any beauty of its own, unlike Russian, or Italian, or Portuguese, or Samoan.
Ah, The Raven. A rare gem.
01:57
@DavidWallace What about this?
My favorite English poem.
Yeah, that particular one has always seemed a bit forced to me, especially right at the end. What does "so long lives this" refer to, for example? It's like he was trying too hard to make something fit the form of a sonnet.
The poem itself.
Have either of you read "Le Ton Beau de Marot", by Hofstadter?
No, but it's on my reading list.
no
02:00
I'm halfway through the GEB now.
So why does Shakespeare suddenly want to go talking about his own poem, as if it gives life to his girlfriend? Seems a bit arrogant to me.
Anyway, he says "every fair from fair sometime declines", then goes and contradicts himself.
Yes, it is. Basically the poet is saying that it's his own poem is what will keep his loved one alive for ever.
in LTBdM, Hofstadter takes a beautiful French poem, and analyses how best to retain its beauty in an English translation. The fact that he comes up with so many different answers in the book reflects the fact that there really is no answer.
It's arrogant, but beautifully so hehe
This poem by Shakespeare reminded me of this one by Neruda
No te amo como si fueras rosa de sal, topacio
o flecha de claveles que propagan el fuego:
te amo como se aman ciertas cosas oscuras,
secretamente, entre la sombra y el alma.

Te amo como la planta que no florece y lleva
dentro de sí, escondida, la luz de aquellas flores,
y gracias a tu amor vive oscuro en mi cuerpo
el apretado aroma que ascendió de la tierra.

Te amo sin saber cómo, ni cuándo, ni de dónde,
te amo directamente sin problemas ni orgullo:
así te amo porque no sé amar de otra manera,
02:03
Hmm, I just find it arrogant (Shakespeare, not Neruda).
Neruda has wrote some of the most beautiful love poems ever..
Yes, that's definitely beautiful. I hope I never see an English translation of this. It's fantastic in Spanish.
hahah
The third stanza is my favourite, I think.
No, it's not. I like all the stanzas equally.
@OtavioMacedo so it turns out that I did not find what category theory is about. But I got some links. Did you follow the conversation?
02:10
No. But I wouldn't be surprised.
This is the kind of thing that require some time to get.
And a lot of effort.
yes :/
I have to go. See you both later.
Bye, Dave!
@Tames yawns
I'm off to sleep
bye @OtavioMacedo
c ya
 
1 hour later…
03:27
@DavidWallace & @Tames: Hi! I was Away. Do you see how David was asking you questions about what your "beautify beauty" meant exactly? And you answered him willingly? Only with more context (c.q. explanation) does it get enough meaning to be analysable.
(I am just repeating my position, I know.)
 
7 hours later…
10:35
so which language is more interesting? Bats or Neo-Aramaic?
 
2 hours later…
13:03
@Cerberus as I see it, his question was more about what would be a paralel example (an expression with the same problematic construction), if I clarifyied the "meaning", it was the meaning of the question, not of the expression, unless if you consider "making beautiful more beautiful" a context, which for me is not, it is just the expression unfolded (it lacks sense, as much as the original expression). Anyway, this is expressed in the question already.. .
I'm not sure whether I see your point here?
13:33
Hey, @Gigili, are you gonna watch England x Italy today?
 
2 hours later…
15:16
good afternoon
:)
@Tames is a curious person
btw, are you a regular user of Apontador?
no, I think i've never used it! why?
I'm just a curious person ;-)
15:27
hahah
what is it useful for? (apontador)
if you say to sharpen your pencils i'll punch you
Local searches.
Based on users' reviews.
i may have reached some of their pages when googling for something
i hardly go out, when I go, it's always somewhere around my place
Hello.
hi Cerb
It's the main Brazilian competitor of Yelp.
15:32
Ah I see.
Isn't that for restaurant reviews?
Not only restaurants.
Pretty much everything you want.
Hmm.
It is all user reviews?
No "expert" reviews?
Apontador is based only on user reviews.
that pizza on the main page looks delicious
15:35
But there's another one, Kekanto, that hires experts.
so does the beer lol
I find restaurants and bars in Curitiba so expensive, I cannot afford them
usually I end up going to some friend's place, we buy things in a supermarket so that we do not go bankrupt
Most people do the same here.
How much would a simple meal at a cheap restaurant cost?
@OtavioMacedo Ah OK...there are also sites that aggregate user and "expert" reviews.
Like Alatest, but I think that only works with mass products.
the cheapest of all that I know is about 3,5 dollars, but it is awful. in average you would be paying around 8 dollars a meal (lunchtime), if you go out at night and want to eat something you'd pay that for something that is hardly a meal
I used to live in Londrina, food was much cheaper there
That sounds similar to what you pay here.
Not too expensive...
How much do you spend on all groceries combined every month? Any idea?
It is hard to estimate: people usually estimate a far too low number.
But my banks automatically adds it all up (mainly in 1 supermarket), and I spend about € 5–7 a day on average.
about $350, I guess
15:44
Ah, I see.
all meals included
That's € 10 a day.
I usually have lunch in some restaurant. I could spend less, but then I'd be lacking nutrition
Really?
as I live alone, if I had to cook, it would be something very simple
15:45
@Tames Nobody here does that on a regular basis.
We all just eat some bread with something for lunch.
hm
Or is lunch the main meal of the day?
bread with what?
Cheese, or jam, or anything.
for me lunch is the main meal, i hardly have dinner, just some snack
15:46
Something boring.
usually
@Tames Ahh I see.
Is that normal in Brazil?
@OtavioMacedo what do you think?
About lunch as the main meal being normal?
about being the main meal
15:48
Yes, it is!
Ah OK.
do you dine?
Usually some snack.
it seems like a regular meal here would comprise something like rice, beans, meat and some salad... i'd never cook rice and beans at the same time for myself... and i feel like i'm not getting enough nutrition
The opposite of the European way hehe.
15:50
usually when i cook it is something with 2 elements, or 3 at most
And what do you eat in restaurants?
@OtavioMacedo I think lunch was the main meal of the day all over Europe too.
This has been gradually changing since Mediaeval times, but many people still do it.
when i eat in restaurants i get a variety of salads, rice and beans and some meat
Although the change has happened first among the upper and middle classes.
So I don't know anybody who eats warm at noon.
But it happens.
Probably rarer her than in Italy.
after my raw foods experience, I always feel like something is missing if I do not get a good salad
15:53
I think it is actually still quite common in some Mediterranean countries among certain people and regions.
@Tames Oh dear, you were a raw foodie?
Was it hard?
i was.. for about 1 year and a half
the beginning is kind of hard, you go trough some adaptation,
the hard part of it... you are eating and thinking about food all the time, because everything is digested very quickly,
you become VERY selective about the quality of the food you eat, because you become very sensitive to it,
for example.. bananas, soon you find out that supermarket bananas taste like plaster
besides,
you have always to explain yourself to people, everytime you are doing a meal,
on why are you a raw foodist, how is it like, etc
think about vegetarians... raw food is much worse
if you live in a community of raw foodist, probably you wouldn't get much trouble
the social factor is very strong
the thing is, after a while i felt like i was living for eating, and not eating for living
so i dropped it
i'm not even a vegetarian nowadays (i was veg for about 9 years)
Did you use to eat raw meat as well?
no
Not even fish?
only vegetables. there are many types of raw diets,
mine was centered around fruit
15:59
Why did you choose that kind of diet?
it didn't matter how many calories I ate, I was very thin, I weighted about 15kg less than i do today
00:00 - 16:0016:00 - 00:00

« first day (284 days earlier)      last day (4529 days later) »