lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Cerberus

15:00

@OtavioMacedo Yeah, and then there is Cameron's friendship with the evil, corrupt Murdoch...

Tames

hahaha... Paris' map is so "egalité"... look how there's no privilege of on region over the other. they are all equaly covered

Cerberus

And Blair's support for the Iraq war...

Tames

@Cerberus yes! I loved it!

all the other maps differ in this, comparing to Paris, as the more peripherical you are,less coverage you get

Cerberus

@Tames Except that only the rich inner city is well covered: most of the city is not on the map, especially the poor areas have been shrunk a great deal. It is not to scale.

Tames

@Cerberus well.. but i guess this happens in all of them, only that in Paris, all areas are covered equally within the circumference...

an the others have more gaps in it

or maybe not

good point, though

Cerberus

15:03

Tames

equality is usually just another form of segregation

Cerberus

This is another map, and not even this one covers the entire agglomeration. Versailles, for example, is really a suburb, but it is off the map.

Tames

i think my favorite is London's

i don't know Paris... no idea about this

In London's... what are those shaded areas in the background, with numbers? this is an extra sophistication, not present in the other maps

Cerberus

Zones, I think.

You pay per zone.

Tames

they also are concerned about people in wheel chairs, something that doesn't appear in the other maps

Cerberus

15:07

The lighter area in Paris is probably also a zone.

@Tames What does equality have to do with segregation?

They seem unrelated.

At least not directly.

Tames

this would make for a very interesting sociological exploration

@Cerberus because equality is an illusion, you only define a group and work inside of it to have equality among it's members. but there's always someone outside the group (exactly what is seen in the map, as you pointed out that more peripheric areas are not covered)

it you draw a circle, it has homogenic distribution. but what about outside the circle?

Cerberus

You could draw a circle around everything.

Then you have no segregation.

Tames

but how can you know you are not ignoring something?

Cerberus

So I think the relation you propose is accidental, to speak with Aristotle, hehe.

Tames

what is accidental?:

Cerberus

15:11

That equality entails segregation.

I mean, equality can also entail inequality if you pick the right situation.

It is like saying "red is another form of green" because you can think of a situation where one entails the other.

Tames

yes... maybe it is not accidental, but necessary, as I said, if you draw a circle, there's something out of it

Cerberus

Doesn't have to be.

Tames

a structural problem (or even logical)

Cerberus

Besides, even when there is some inequality, it is not increased after more inner equality: it stays the same.

Tames

you can only think about what is equal if you think about what is different.

@Cerberus didn't get your point there

maybe you could give me a concrete example?

Cerberus

15:16

Suppose the current situation. Now suppose we attain more income equality within England. Now the income inequality between England and the rest of the world has not increased or decreased. It stays the same.

Tames

what do you mean by "income equality", within, and what it would mean between countries?

Cerberus

I mean that the gap between rich and poor gets smaller in England.

That does not change anything about the gap between England and the rest of the world.

Tames

I'm not sure if this would be possible, as there seems to be interdependency between economic systems

unless there something really radical happening like... a dictatorship that takes from the rich and gives to the poor, some inner distribution... and not something like the poor gets a little richer and rich stays the same

Cerberus

It is possible to a significant degree, hence the differences from one country to another: some countries have huge internal gaps between rich and poor, others have much smaller gaps.

@Tames When the gap is reduced, the rich lose some, the poor gain some.

Tames

yes.. but what I'm saying is.. that maybe the conditions in which the gap is reduced require some change in exterior relations.. this barriers are very permeable... this is a characteristic of capitalism

maybe, in some other economic system, it would not depend on exterior relations.. but then, possibly people would not even know what an income gap is

Cerberus

15:23

I do not think this is necessarily so. In any case it would be an accidental relation.

Tames

I disagree, but I have no further arguments by now lol

Cerberus

Hehe.

Okay, then let's suppose the Soviet Union.

Income equality was greatly increased after the revolution.

Did the SU become richer than other nations at the same time? Not at all.

In the case of the Scandinavian countries, however, income equality was also increased a great deal after 1950, and yet they became richer than most other nations.

So it can go either way.

Tames

because it was not capitalist. what i'm saying is that... if nations share an economic system (capitalism), the gap cannot change whitout this external changes. what happened in SU is that they got out of it, so they changed the gap even so the exterior gap didn't change. it only proves my point. but I admit it, my precision has increased with your critic

the interdependency between inner and outer gaps is necessary in capitalism

but accidental and arbitrary in other cases

as far as I'm concerned

I'd have to study more about it... but that seems to be the point in Marx's Capital..

not an easy book though..

so you are right, in the cases that the nation is not capitalist

but.. what were we talking about before?

equality breeding inequality?

Cerberus

30 mins ago, by Tames

equality is usually just another form of segregation

A typical Postmodernist paradox that makes me recalcitrant, hehe.

@Tames Capitalism is not a monolith.

Tames

so.. than.. one nation drops capitalist, their inner members are now equal,

but now... "we are comunists and they are capitalists"

another type of difference comes up

i don't know what would happen if all countries were comunists

probably some dictatorship would arise somewhere,

and the others would fight it

Cerberus

15:36

Increased income equality within a country normally involves more socialism. That happened both in Scandinavia and in Russia. Both still had many capitalist elements too.

Tames

but it draws a circle, don't you see? there Russia and Scandinavia, and outside the circle is the rest of the world

Cerberus

When we call a country "capitalist", we just mean "more capitalist than the average", and the same applies when we call it "socialist".

@Tames I don't really see that circle.

They were extremely different.

Tames

well... I'm not sure... probably you are talking about the welfare state... i don't know if this is socialism in essence..

it is more like Robin Hood politics..

Cerberus

Western Europe v. Communist Europe was a better division that made more sense.

@Tames Yes.

Tames

and I wonder if there could exist welfare states, if african and south american were not being savaged by richer countries..

of course, it is not all destructive.. but maybe you see my point here?

there's the circle where equality grows, and there inequality between inner and outer

If I help you, where's the equality, if I'm the helper and you are the one being helped? that's precisely the point in Zizek's video

it is a structural problem

Cerberus

15:47

All right, it is easier for richer countries to become more equal, and at the same time using cheap labour in poor countries helps rich countries get richer. But that connection is indirect. Moreover, I think we can still be plenty rich once the poor countries have become rich too, because manual labour has become less and less important in the economy.

A case in point: agriculture, the most primitive economical activity, is now profitable in the richest countries.

We don't really need the poor countries. Sure, we profit from them to a significant degree (as they do from us), but they are not essential.

Tames

it is not only the case of using cheap labour, although it still happens a lot. Most part of the big companies are owned by foreing people in rich countries, so a lot of things we buy here will enrichen them, capital is flowing outwards. There is some benefit for us in this, as maybe we do not have the conditions to produce some things by ourselves, but we are being profited on... technology makes everything even more complex...

you need poor country to buy things from you..

and many times, to provide cheap labour inside your own territory..

not only outside..

why would someone downvote my answer and not even tell me why.. this sucks

Cerberus

@Tames Actually, sales to poor countries are only a small part of total sales for most multinationals.

And they "exploit" the consumers in rich countries just as much.

@Tames That happens all the time, don't worry about it!

Tames

I'm not sure about this... all the major soft drinks in Brazil are owned by Coca cola,

even juices, they bought everything

of course, they exploit everybody

only that usa is exploiting and profiting, and we are being exploited mostly

you know the golden rule, right?

Cerberus

I don't know: if Coca Cola accomplishes this by unfair competition, then you could call it some kind of (mild) exploitation. But don't forget that all of Europe is equally "exploited" by Coca Cola, we all drink it too.

And we are a much bigger market. And I don't think CC plays the competition game unfairly here.

@Tames No?

Tames

@Cerberus whoever has the gold, gets to make the rules

Cerberus

16:02

To some degree. That is an enormous simplification.

Tames

rich countries get to benefit themselves, like taxes to make importation less likely. if a poor country does this to protect their own economy, they will be punished by the big ones

somehow.

Cerberus

That is true.

But what is your point exactly? I agree that certain actors in rich countries exploit poor countries in certain ways.

Tames

I'm not saying "we are slaves, pity on us", "you are big, happy, perfect", only that the rich gets richer and that i'm skeptical about capitalism bringing out a balance... maybe it will transform into another system someday

that's what Marx says... that contradictions are inherent to the system, an bring about changes

what will it turn into is a mistery

could be different things

(being downvoted without an explanation is frustrating because you are not able to identify your mistake)

Cerberus

> In the past ten years, growth in Africa has surpassed that of East Asia[4] Data suggest parts of the continent are now experiencing fast growth. The amount of growth that has been occurring is comparable or greater to that of the Asian Tiger, Latin Puma markets, gaining them the new nickname, the Lion Markets.[5] The World Bank reports the economy of Sub-Saharan African countries grew at rates that match or surpass global rates.[6][7]

@Tames (I know! Very frustrating.)

Compare African growth with European growth (almost zero), and American (low, probably around 1 %).

Tames

@Cerberus that is very broad... Africa is a continent.. could this growth be associated with inner social problems, even civil war in some cases?

Cerberus

16:08

How? There is just growth.

Tames

what does growth mean, exactly

Cerberus

While in some cases the gap between rich and poor is increasing, it is decreasing in other cases.

@Tames More goods produced etc. etc.

There isn't one uniform pattern that you can lay the entire world on.

Tames

are these goods produced by multinationals with cheap labour work?

Cerberus

Every country and person is in a different situation.

@Tames I think only added value counts.

Tames

i think it is unlikely that a poor country would all of the sudden experience a burst of growth, if it was not for multinationals and cheap labour

the only benefit i see in this, is that maybe one day there will be conditions, set by capitalism itself, that will breed a different system

there's no guarantee that it will be a good one, thought. it seems that some form of exploitation is basic to all economic system

if there's not economic exploitation, probably some other kind of issue.. dictatorship... religious issues...

that's why I said that you can't think about equality without having inequality or some form of segragation... we live in some kind of dynamic balance, in the sense that we only don't fall down because we keep running

standing still is death

or just impossible

it is like going somewhere, but we never get there

too many paradoxes already?

Cerberus

16:18

There is some criticism on these data, but they are even more impressive on the long term.

Technological advancement is was can make everybody richer, rich and poor alike.

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus see what I meant, when we were talking about this, before?

Cerberus

Poverty

Poverty is the state of one who lacks a certain amount of material possessions or money. Extreme poverty is also called penury. Absolute poverty or destitution refers to the one who lacks basic human needs, which commonly includes clean and fresh water, nutrition, health care, education, clothing and shelter. About 1.7 billion people are estimated to live in absolute poverty today. Relative poverty refers to lacking a usual or socially acceptable level of resources or income as compared with others within a society or country. For most of history poverty had been mostly accepted as inevi...

Otavio Macedo

> But in our schools, especially public schools, children learn that the USA and Europe are the root of all evil

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Haha, yes, I see.

Some Marxism.

Otavio Macedo

@Tames, when you buy bread from a bakery, are you being exploited by the baker?

Cerberus

16:23

You could be exploited in some indirect way.

Otavio Macedo

How?

Tames

@OtavioMacedo I'm not saying that this is robbery, even Marx thought that plus-value was fair in some way, after all, who would produce something if not to make a profit of this? the point is equality and inequality, and how i believe that equality for everyone is impossible. if it is not economic, it would be some other kind

Otavio Macedo

@Tames In that point, we agree :)

Tames

we began to talk about capitalism, because we were talking about if there could be inner diminishing of economic gap withouth a change in outer economic gap

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo The baker could buy all the cheap flour on the market, so that you could only buy expensive flour if you wanted to make bread yourself. The baker could have bribed officials to force cheaper/better competitors out of the market. Etc. etc...

Tames

16:26

@OtavioMacedo so... my point is, we have some problems now. maybe some of them will get better.. but it doesn't mean "someday we will all be rich and happy", other issues will appear

Cerberus

Most people are now far better off than a few hundred years ago. I see strong and definite progress in the long run.

Tames

besides that, there are many political-economical reasons for news like "look, the poor are getting richer, USA is the good guy, helping the poor and fighting dictators"

Cerberus

If you look at food, education, life expectancy...

Tames

there's always interests in these news

they are always favouring some group

Cerberus

Of course.

Otavio Macedo

16:28

@Cerberus Exactly. Those situations require force and violence. Usually with the help of governments.

Tames

take USA for example.. rich people.. freedom.. why do all those strange things happen there? a kid takes a gun and kills half of his colleagues

this is not common in other countries, but very common in usa

Otavio Macedo

But that's exactly the opposite of free-market.

Tames

serial killers, etc..

this is a very american phenomen..

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Well, monopolies are possibly the most destructive thing, and they can operate in a completely free market.

With dump prices, etc.

Tames

yes, disguised

Cerberus

16:31

@Tames It also happens in northern Europe, where we have the best income equality in the world.

There have been shootings in Germany, Finland, Norway, Holland, England, France...

Tames

@Cerberus oh.. true... sorry. i guess we get more media about usa

Otavio Macedo

@Tames we have drug gangs killing policemen with heavy weapons

Cerberus

@Tames I think the typical one-on-one shootings are much more common in America, though, but that is probably mainly because they have much weaker gun laws than we.

Tames

@OtavioMacedo true.. but this seems to be a different kind of problem. i'm not saying they are my violent. just a different type of violence

the same argument as before.. that we will not reach a point where violence disappears, it will just transform

Cerberus

bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-13003419

Tames

16:34

i guess one-on-one shootings seem like "out of nowhere", while violence problems in favelas are much expected

people would be surprised if it didn't happen

@Cerberus yes... but this is rare here, the only case I know. @OtavioMacedo have you heard of other cases like that?

Cerberus

It is also very rare in America, though perhaps a bit less rare.

Tames

"President Dilma Rousseff wept as she condemned the school massacre - the first of its kind in Brazil."

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Yes, a guy went into a movie theater and killed a few people.

Cerberus

There have been perhaps a handful of school shootings in America?

And a dozen more other civilian mass shootings.

Tames

@OtavioMacedo oh.. true. "because of Fight Club", right? lol

@Cerberus yes... violence is everywhere

Cerberus

16:38

> The earliest known United States shooting to happen on school property was the Pontiac's Rebellion school massacre on July 26, 1764, where four Lenape American Indians entered the schoolhouse near present-day Greencastle, Pennsylvania, shot and killed schoolmaster Enoch Brown, and killed nine or ten children (reports vary). Only three children survived.[18]

Tames

oh man.. this is so dreadful

do you know why this happened?

Cerberus

Pontiac's Rebellion school massacre

The Pontiac's Rebellion school massacre was an incident during Pontiac's Rebellion, in raids and warfare on the frontier following the French and Indian War. On July 26, 1764, four Delaware (Lenape) warriors attacked the teacher and students at a schoolhouse in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania, near present-day Greencastle. They killed Enoch Brown, the schoolmaster, and ten children. One child who had been scalped survived. Because of such raids, the Pennsylvania Assembly had already reintroduced bounties for scalps of American Indians, which they had offered during the French ...

Wikipedia seems very, very slow for me.

Tames

ohhh.. i guess this might be only one part of the story,

Cerberus

Tames

if you are interested I suggest you to read "Bury my heart at wonded knee",

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_My_Heart_at_Wounded_Knee

Cerberus

16:43

Tames

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bury_My_Heart_at_Wounded_Knee

Cerberus

It is true that there have been many more shootings in the USA, however. But I rather that that has to do with easier access to guns...

Tames

it seems that "scalping" was learned by indians, from getting scalped themselves. and later they were called "savages". but white men were really jerks

Cerberus

Oh, Europeans invented that?

Tames

indians became violent because of all the trickeries that white men did to them, including killing just to get some gold in the land

shameful

Cerberus

16:46

They also warred a lot amongst themselves. This is a gross simplification.

Tames

yes, this book talks about it

Cerberus

The Aztecs, for example, were mercilessly killed by Spaniards; however, they themselves took captives from other Indian peoples home to Tenochtitlan, and killed as many as possible as a sacrifice to their gods.

A good King needed several hundred human hearts sacrificed after a war to increase his prestige.

Tames

there was a lot of treachery going on.. the thing is, indians had some respect for each other, and some common ground rules like "if you said you are not going to do it, i trust you really won't",

and for white men, verbal commitment meant nothing

Cerberus

I'm sorry, but I am an historian, and I cannot agree with that at all.

Red, white, black, and yellow men have all done wicked deeds.

Tames

i'm not saying indians are saints, only that white men painted them black

"they are savages, we are civilized"

Cerberus

16:48

No evidence has ever been presented that one race is more ethical than another.

@Tames Of course many European colonists were wicked...

Tames

"indians are animals, they will kill you from the back and eat your heart"

Cerberus

What is your point exactly?

Man has always done evil.

Tames

that this killing in the school, by indians, is not arbitrary, but a response to some wicked action by white men

it is different from someone getting allucinations and shooting kids in his former school

Cerberus

Oh, that is certainly possible.

Yes.

Just as the shooting of Jewish kids in Toulouse was a reaction to earlier phases in a bigger "conflict".

But...

Tames

it seems that guns are much more accessible in usa than here.. what about europe?

Cerberus

16:52

Very inaccessible in most EU countries.

I think it is an important factor.

Tames

i think there are different kinds of conflict, more personal or more groupal matters, not easy to say if some are worse than others

Cerberus

Agreed.

Tames

such a heavy topic

i'll just have some hot chocolate to balance a little lol

Cerberus

Hehe.

Tames

animal print panties, marxism and one-on-one shootings.. this is such and eccletic channel!

even some linguistic issues sometimes lol

@OtavioMacedo you've got such an eye for grammatic issues, and such a dedication to correct them. I admire you. Sometimes I read a text and capture only the ideas, unless I'm specifically requested to watch for bad writing

Otavio Macedo

17:09

Yeah, but I frequently make my own grammatical mistakes

Tames

@OtavioMacedo is there anyone to correct you, or do you do it yourself? lol

Otavio Macedo

I get corrected by other people every time.

Tames

some Badiou questions came up at philosophySE.. this is so nice..

Badiou is a lacanian marxist, like Zizek

Tames

17:43

do any of you know if alcohol is good to kill funghus? or what should I be using instead (to clean objects)

Otavio Macedo

3

Q: Can I use alcohol for cleaning tables?

For some reason, an unpleasant scent wafted into my room on Sunday, and coincidentally, it was a rainy day that day. As a result, the scent is now stuck to my table, and anything that I put on the wooden table 'carries'/gains the same unpleasant scent. I've tried using water and rubbed it on th...

Cerberus

@Tames There are anti-fungal cleaning agents. You can probably buy them at drug stores.

Otherwise, just scrub off the fungus and make sure the object stays dry for long periods of time, so that new fungus cannot develop.

Tames

thanks!

@Cerberus precisely the problem -> make sure the objects stay dry for long periods of time

oh, great! DIY SE!

this city is so humid that if some generations of humans never left the city they'd develop gills

Cerberus

17:59

And then you could swim to us.

Tames

hahaah

Cerberus

And conquer the world.

Tames

18:11

you sounded so much like Brain right now (from Pinky and the Brain)

/me is trying to reduce the chaos in her apartment

seems like an impossible task

how did chaos become cosmos in greek cosmology?

i wonder

Otavio Macedo

Of course it is. It's the second law of thermodynamics!

Tames

@OtavioMacedo I guess I need a myth then! urgently lol

Otavio Macedo

Pick your favorite: magictails.com/creationlinks.html

Tames

3 underworlds.. and a magic reed, is all i need

i've got the 3 underworlds already

but magic reed?

wow, almost a poem

I guess Navajo cosmology won't help. let me try another one..

Maya maybe. "In the beginning were only Tepeu and Gucumatz. These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being."

Tames

18:43

magic DOES happen. I have 4 pair of socks and none of them match

the worse part is the kitchen. i'm afraid that when I turn my back on the sink, the swamp monster will attack me

hi Jas

/me should just keep calm and chocolate on

/me is using old socks to clean the windows

/me hopes this black-green mould thing is not growing inside her lungs

and this is my cute passion flower plant crawling over my lamp!

/me is a bit hysterical, which might be a good thing for a psychotic person

if I eat some more piece of chocolate, I'll turn into a brownie

all I've had today: 2 cups of chocolate milk, 2 mini chocolate bars

/me needs food and new socks, right now

Tames

20:22

so

i got new socks and ate something that looks like an oversized meatball

i wonder it that would be enough protein for a day lol

@Cerberus are you running today?

Cerberus

20:42

Hi.

Meatball sounds nice.

And I like your plants.

Wont the lamp heat it up?

Tames

it is a "cold lamp"

what r u doing?

Cerberus

Ah OK. What if it grows into the lamp?

Tames

hahah

probably it won't, i had to entagle it there myself, because if was lost, growing on air

now i'm trying to make it attach to itself

not sure if it's going to work

maybe it will stop growing soon, as it is planted in a small vase

Cerberus

Can it survive in a pot that is too small?

Tames

survive yes... but it will not develop. it will never bear flowers, for example

besides, there's not enough sunlight for it here, climbing plants like sun

do you know what passion flower is? have you ever seen its flower?

Cerberus

20:55

Yes, it's nice.

It is fairly popular here.

Tames

oh, i thought it was too cold in there for passion flowers

were you born in Amsterdam?

Tames

21:21

squeak

Tames

22:25

Hi gigi

Cerb has been iignoring me for over an hour now

those dogs

Gigili

Did he iignore you?

Tames

well, I guess I should leave

bye Gig

c ya

Gigili

Have fun.

Cerberus

Hey, I can't be everywhere at once.

I am never in the Ling room all the time.

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