lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Tames

00:01

I live in the 8th floor.. the poor cat would have to be stuck here alone almost all day, and I've heard some stories of people forgetting a window opened.. and the cat commiting a sort of suicide

Gigili

Uh-oh. It's 5 A.M.

Good night, good night.

Or good morning, even.

Tames

Good day gig

... more 186 pages of this stupid book to go...

Cerberus

@Gigili Night!

Tames

i think i won't be able to finish it today

Cerberus

@Tames Yeah I live in an apartment on the first floor, but it is about 6 metres to the ground from the window sill.

@Tames Is it for an exam?

Tames

00:07

I have to answer a questionnaire on it, but it is so low quality that i can't even believe a teacher is requesting this in a university class

and i have to read the whole book to answer the freaking childish questionnaire,

besides this i'll have to do some other papers, to get my grades on this class

it is absurd

do any of you know Carl Rogers?

this is almost magazine psychology

"no need for theory, just accept yourself as you truly are" bulshit

he mentions a little bit of everything, no theoretical framework

a total disaster

in a semester we are studying Heidegger, in the other this

and it is all "phenomenological-existencial psychology"...

if Heidegger saw this, he would be... is there an expression in english for this? moving himself in the tomb?

hahah

Cerberus

He'd turn in his grave.

@Tames That does sound like bullshit.

Tames

00:22

a whole semester lost on this

a complete waste of time

Cerberus

That sucks.

Tames

look at this

Carl Rogers

Carl Ransom Rogers (January 8, 1902 – February 4, 1987) was an influential American psychologist and among the founders of the humanistic approach to psychology. Rogers is widely considered to be one of the founding fathers of psychotherapy research and was honored for his pioneering research with the Award for Distinguished Scientific Contributions by the American Psychological Association in 1956. The person-centered approach, his own unique approach to understanding personality and human relationships, found wide application in various domains such as psychotherapy and counseling (cli...

this is his "theory"

what theory? only a bunch of propositions based on different knowledge fields

and his own "experience"

Cerberus

Odd.

Tames

this is a disaster to psychology. or this is really psychology and then I should agree that psychoanalysis is not psychology

@Cerberus do you like poetry?

i mean.. besides classic hexamers that i've never heard of?

Cerberus

00:42

Sometimes. But only when I'm in the mood. A poem out of nowhere without context usually doesn't work on me.

I gather you like poetry a lot, hehe.

Tames

yes. I've even wrote some stuff. now it hardly happens. i went trough a concrete phase, and now i don't even know anymore what it is

Otavio Macedo

What's that?

Tames

a picture by Klimt

beautiful isn't it?

this is the complete version

it's called "the tree of life"

he has so many beautiful paintings, it is even hard to chose one to put in here

many of them are very similar, actually

it is like different pictures of the same universe

for example this

and this

it is like he is obsessed with certain forms

Otavio Macedo

Beautiful

Tames

quite oedipical even, this relation

the mother and the child, resembling two lovers

his pictures seem like a tribute to feminility and sensuality

so gorgeous

it seems that the characters are always immersed in dreams

Cerberus

01:08

Yeah Klimt is beautiful.

Tames

01:43

Cerberus

Haha.

Otavio Macedo

Haha, so you psychologists also enjoy Gödelian jokes?

Tames

i don't know about psychologists but psychoanalysts do lol

Lacan makes a lot of reference to Godel, Russell's paradox..

he uses set theory models for many things

Otavio Macedo

Oh, really?

Tames

but psychoanalysis is interested in jokes, in general. Freud wrote a whole book on the subject

"O chiste e suas relações com o inconsciente"

Otavio Macedo

01:51

You might like this book

Gödel, Escher, Bach

Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid (commonly GEB) is a 1979 book by Douglas Hofstadter, described by his publishing company as "a metaphorical fugue on minds and machines in the spirit of Lewis Carroll". On its surface, GEB examines logician Kurt Gödel, artist M. C. Escher and composer Johann Sebastian Bach, discussing common themes in their work and lives. At a deeper level, the book is an exposition of concepts fundamental to mathematics, symmetry, and intelligence. Through illustration and analysis, the book discusses how self-reference and formal rules allow systems to acq...

Tames

Lacan comes back to logic all the time

i need to learn more about it

how nice!

Cerberus

What is chiste?

Otavio Macedo

Joke

Cerberus

Joke?

Tames

Lacan loves the moebius strip and the klein bottle

Cerberus

01:53

Ah.

Tames

Joke.. in german it would be "witz" I think

Cerberus

So I do speak Portuguese, hehe.

Otavio Macedo

But it's an archaic word, I think.

In modern Brazilian Portuguese, "piada" is more common.

Cerberus

Do you have a word like gioco? Joçao?

Ah.

Tames

Otavio, para o Freud parece ter diferença entre piada e chiste, eu não lembro bem o que é, penso que o chiste tem uma espécie de ruptura com a língua, tipo um jogo de palavras, que a piada não teria

Cerb.. jogo?

Cerberus

01:54

Ah yes.

Tames

jogo is game

Cerberus

Ah, so a chiste is a pun, and a piada is a joke in general?

Tames

probably, i'm not sure

Cerberus

Portuguese is easy!

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus hey, you stole the words from my mind.

I was gonna say exactly that!

Cerberus

01:56

Hehe.

Tames

we never use "chiste" in regular talk, although it is common in spanish

Cerberus

I must admit I didn't understand the second clause eu não....

Tames

but I think Freud's book title must not be "Puns and its relations to the unconscious"

"eu não" - i don't... "eu não lembro" i don't remember

Cerberus

Ah I see.

I don't remember very well what it is/was?

Tames

I don't remeber very well what it is

Cerberus

01:57

I wonder where lembro comes from.

OK.

Tames

it can be "recordo", but "lembro" is more common

Otavio Macedo

[m] became [l] at some point in history

Lembrar is cognate to remember

Tames

@OtavioMacedo thanks for indicating me that book.. I had come across it in the internet, but didn't pay attention. it seems to be freat

Cerberus

Oh!

Funny.

Tames

weird

Cerberus

02:00

What is month?

Otavio Macedo

Mês

Cerberus

Hmm.

Any idea in what situations m became l?

Tames

hm..

Cerberus

And does Spanish have a similar word with l?

Tames

we have a word that is "membro".. like member, we say "the arm is a member of the body". maybe some differentiation?

Cerberus

02:01

Oh, hmm.

That probably comes from a different Latin word.

Tames

spanish.. no, I don'r remember -> no me recuerdo

Cerberus

Membrum = member; memoria = memory.

Yeah I know that verb. Is it recordar? Or is that Italian, ricordare?

Tames

maybe because when i say "i don't remember", it is...

Otavio Macedo

I don't think the phenomenon has to do specifically with m and l.

liliu > líriu, calamelu > caramelo, memorare > membrar > lembrar

Tames

how can I say.. like "i wash myself", this 'myself".. we say "não ME lembro", if it was "não me membro", it would sound really bad

Otavio Macedo

02:03

Dissimilation, according to Wikipedia.

Tames

like in spanish, it would be "le leche" (milk, masculine), but because of the sound, we say "la leche"

agua - water, is feminine,

but it is said EL agua, because LA agua would sound bad

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Umm wait, how is that dissimilation in the change from caramelo to calamelu?

That looks like assimilation?

Tames

otavioooo

you did it!

i'm so happy!

Cerberus

@Tames Ohh so it's vowel dissimilation.

Tames

thanks!

what is calamelu? i don't know this word..

Cerberus

02:10

Caramel.

Otavio Macedo

No, it's the other way around, from calamelu to caramelu

Tames

but when we say caramelo, it may sound as caramelo

Cerberus

Melted sugar.

Tames

caramelu

i mean

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Huh??

But it is caramel in all other languages too.

Otavio Macedo

02:10

How's it in Latin?

Tames

Cerb, Otavio answer my meaningFUL question lol

Cerberus

Eh I don't know.

It may be a newer word.

Let me look it up.

@Tames Congrats!

Otavio Macedo

Ah, calamellus

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/calamellus

Tames

hahah

congrats to @OtavioMacedo!

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Hope that helps.

Tames

02:13

@OtavioMacedo how sweet of you! I know you had to do some research on this

:)

Otavio Macedo

No problem :-)

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo My dictionary says the origin is uncertain. It names cannamellis first as a possibility, then calamellus second.

Oh, it calls the calamellus option "less likely".

gtb.inl.nl/iWNTLINKS/DATADIR/paginazy.html?EWN+/iWDB/…

It is in Dutch.

Tames

"cana" is the plant where sugar comes from

Cerberus

Yeah, like sugar cane.

Tames

mellis maybe "honey"?

Cerberus

02:16

Yes.

Mel, gen. mellis.

My dictionary is from 2004–2009, so it is pretty recent.

Tames

it may have to do with the sound of "a" in "ca"... because when you say "cara" it is open, when you say "cana" it is nasal, like ã

...

Cerberus

Could be...

Tames

maybe the sound changed and r morphed into n..

Cerberus

It is a possibility.

It seems a very complicated etymology.

Otavio Macedo

Well, your dictionary must be way more trustworthy than Wikipedia

Cerberus

02:20

I think it is.

The authors are very respectable.

So it could have happened the way you suggested.

But we don't know.

So anyway, there is no easy way for me to predict this change, alas.

Tames

it is interesting though that it didn't become "caramel" or "canamel", as honey in portuguese is "mel"

and not "melo"

Otavio Macedo

The Latin accusative is also "mel"

Cerberus

@Tames I suppose because they each developed separately in Spanish–Portuguese.

@OtavioMacedo Yup, as with all neuter words in Greek and Latin.

Tames

hmm

Cerberus

Nominative and accusative are always formally identical for neuter words.

Tames

02:25

maybe it has something to do with it becoming a ver, 'melar", "eu melo", "eu caramelo" rs

Cerberus

And neuter plural always ends on -a.

Tames

could it be that it began as a verb?

Cerberus

There were two different nouns already Latin.

So Portuguese must have built on those nouns.

Tames

because it sounds likely that if the word was longer, "canamelar", the first 'ã' could change the sound to 'a' (open)

and then, n could change to r

Cerberus

Is there an ã?

Tames

02:28

man

how much more speculative can I get

when 'a" is followed by "m" or "n", it is usually a nasal 'a"

like ã

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Yes, that's assimilation.

Tames

but.. maybe... considering callamellus...

isn't L and R more closely related in portuguese?

Cerberus

It would be calamellus.

Tames

small children frequently swap these letters

there's even a popular comic character with this feature

Cerberus

Yeah they are both liquidae.

Many Asian people cannot distinguish the two.

And I believe they were one hieroglyph in ancient Egyptian too.

Tames

02:36

this is beggining to affect me

on the inside

lol

Cerberus

Oh nice.

And I was trying so hard not to think of food!

@Otavio: By the way, I forgot most of what I learned about Aristotle's categories, but is quality the same as form in Aristotle?

Tames

do you guys know Kurt Schwitters and his Ursonnaten?

Cerberus

I remember his two main concepts were material/substance and form.

@Tames Hmm never heard of?

Otavio Macedo

The problem is, in each book Aristotle uses a different classification system.

I think you are referring to the four causes

Tames

it is so interesting. it is like a sound/musical research on language

let me find the link

Otavio Macedo

02:41

material, formal, final and efficient

Tames

ubu.com/sound/schwitters.html

ubumexico.centro.org.mx/sound/schwitters_kurt/what-a-beauty/…

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Hmm those are the same, yes. But material and form are I believe the most important ones, especially is the comparison with Plato...

Tames

it is very interesting. but maybe not very pleasant to some

Otavio Macedo

Maybe the material cause can be linked with quality.

Cerberus

@Tames Hmm I'm afraid that is too advanced for me.

Otavio Macedo

02:44

A wooden chair: is material cause is wood.

As wood has certain qualities, the chair would "inherit" those qualities...

I don't know. Just speculation.

Tames

@Cerberus are you listening?

this Schwitters is a wacko

Cerberus

I rather remember about how Aristotle considered each object to exist. It has substance/material, in that it is physical at all. That's all that substance does. Then it has a certain shape or form, which determines what kind of physical object it is, like a chair or a man or a goat. The way I say it, "kind", already implies a similarity to quality. So it has both material and formal existence, necessarily.

Tames

dadaist

Cerberus

Hmm yeah, that's not my kind of art.

Tames

oh

Cerberus

02:47

I'm too simple for that, hehe.

Tames

it is my favorite

it is the simplest form of all!

Cerberus

Like the guy who hung up a loo and proclaimed it art?

I think that was a dadaist?

Tames

how simpler can it get?

Cerberus

Heh.

Tames

Duchamp is the best

his works are strategical

Otavio Macedo

02:49

Yeah, but the "kind of" relation, it is a species/genus relation.

Tames

Duchamp was a chess player

Otavio Macedo

Thus, you are strictly inside the "realm" of substance, not quality.

Tames

his work is deeply inspired by language, riddles.. the work of Raymond Roussel..

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo I don't know...you could say that, but in this case there isn't really a genus.

Tames

he said that it is better that visual art is influenced by literature than by other paintings

Cerberus

02:51

Oh, well.

@Tames Yes, that is what I meant.

Tames

Otavio Macedo

A chair is a piece of furniture.

Tames

this is great

Otavio Macedo

Chair = species, Piece of furniture = genus.

@Tames Guest and ghost are etymologically related.

Tames

are they?

Otavio Macedo

02:55

Hmm, thinking again, I'm not sure.

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Alright, but I don't think that is related to Aristitle's "form" (probably morphê) as I remember it. But you're right that he is perhaps not very consistent with his terminology, so this is probably a dead end, hehe.

@OtavioMacedo I don't think so.

German Geist / Dutch geest v. Latin hostis.

Otavio Macedo

I think it's guest and host that are related.

From PIE times.

Cerberus

Now I shall have to look it up!

By the way, Dutch has gast v. geest.

So it seems very unlikely.

Otavio Macedo

etymonline.com/index.php?term=host

A guest and a host are the two sides of a relationship.

Tames

yes, this i know

this is the essence of the joke, as i see it, like merging (+) with (-), you get a ghost, or an emptiness

or a fantasy

from merging opposites

Otavio Macedo

03:01

Ok, I'm going to bed, my friends.

Tames

me too, i'm sleeping already

lol

bbye boys

good night

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo But but...

You said ghost!

Oh, wait, I missed your line where you said it was guest.

@Tames Nighty night!

According to Kluge (good German dictionary), the PIE origin of ghost/geest etc. is uncertain.

Tames

:-*

bye

Cerberus

Sleep well!

Oh, I should go too haha.

Good timing!

Otavio Macedo

12:18

@Cerberus Oh, nothing is certain in this world...

Alenanno

15:29

@Tames "bbye boys"? Are you a girl? Oh nice, I still suck at guessing the users' sex. lol

Gigili

@Alenanno Why does it necessarily implies that she's female?

Alenanno

@Gigili Just a feeling. I might be wrong though!

Gigili

You are.

Alenanno

Why are you sure?

Gigili

I've seen men saying the same thing. I fail to see your point.

Perhaps because you "suck at guessing the users' sex"!

Alenanno

15:34

Ahah

Cerberus

16:47

@Alenanno Yes, she is a girl.

Tames

Hi ppl

I've shown my picture! of course some might think it is not real

@Alenanno: Tames is a male name in some places

@Gigili do you think I'm faking it? lol

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