@Tames A nudge in the right direction for an answer.

@OtavioMacedo In what way?

@Cerberus answer to what, trinity?

@Tames To your question?

@Cerberus I already told you what I already know. If I had the answer I wouldn't post the question!

There is a constraint that you can only beautify a thing that can possess beauty. Beauty cannot possess itself.

yes, that is how my thinking goes, but it is not formalized

Therefore you cannot beautify beauty.

Is a syllogism formal enough for you?

Hehe.

why can you only apply beauty to something that is not beauty itself?

Because a property cannot be applied to itself?

why?

Lower your voice, I cannot sleep.

giggles

three dogs and a bull quarreling, what do you expect

Oh, that's almost me! Giggle.

sorry gigi

@Tames Intuition tells us so?

hahah

@Gigili barks

intuition is a great word for lack of argumentation

"i know it"

why? how?

"it just happens"

we need definitions, so to have elements to work with

that is why categorization is important

i'll have to read Aristotle, definitly

and Kant

If I ask you, "why is x≠x false?", what do you answer?

We need axiomata to start with.

exactly, this is what I meant by definitions, elements to work with

my question begs for definition of elements, so that the problem can be demonstrated

but i'm not sure what the elements are

if i knew, i'd have my answer

I think you have to presuppose that the rules of language dictate that you cannot apply a property to a general thing.

language allows you to say colorless green ideas. that's what poetry is about in many cases

So your question is basically "why does this sentence not make sense"?

but logic is a reduction of natural languages,an abstraction if you will

that is whay somethings possible in language are not possible in logic

not allowed

@Tames Normally, colourless green idea is a meaningless phrase. In poetry, context can make it meaningful. Context is key. Meaning is not stored in a few words.

I don't feel that logic is very useful in analysing every-day language?

it is useful for me, because of psychoanalytic theory

because where logic doesn't apply, there's where subjectivity appears, as i mentioned before

for example, maybe the problem proposed by Marx is subjective and not objective as some people think

it doesn't make it a minor problem

only changes the focus

i guess you can see now how important this "simple logic issue" is to me

Well, ehm.

ehm?

It is subjective in that this may be meaningful to someone who takes different presuppositions to the question.

For example, if you say next week about some other question, "this puzzle is like beautifying beauty!", then that is immediately meaningful to me, in that it refers to an unsolvable puzzle that invites lots of discussion.

By the way, I'm suffering from the Tetris effect now.

When I look at the blue shapes in this chat, I expect them to move and slide away.

@Cerberus something to do with substance and accidents.

I think he discusses that in the "Categories"

You mean accidental properties as opposed to essential properties?

I believe that is Aristotelian.

How would those fit in?

I'm not sure.

I need to read it again.

But I seem to remember a very similar example, given by him

Cerberus, an exemple I gave you of this problem is.. someone says "this music is dark",

but music is not solid, it does not reflect light, so it can't be dark, green or whatever

this use indicates to me that this music touches the person in some sort of "emotional" way which is meaningful to him/her. i'd have to investigate what is this meaning, as an analyst

this is only a simple example, maybe lousy

but i think you get the idea

So if you mean "dark" literally there, you violate rules of meaningful language there, and it has no meaning; if you use "dark" to mean something else, as a metaphor, it does have meaning. In this case, the metaphorical use of "dark" is common enough for us to immediately find that interpretation probable, so there is no problem. The reason is most likely that it has been used like this before, and we are familiar with it.

However, in the case of "beautifying beauty", no secondary or metaphorical meaning springs to mind. My mind just remains blank. So I can assign no probable meaning to it.

yes, metaphor is one of the ways in which this things happen. poetry is highly metaphoric, except for concrete poetry maybe

Yes.

So in poetry, beautifying beauty could be used in a meaningful way, perhaps.

But you gave no context with your question.

maybe, to someone else, "beautifying beauty" makes sense, as much as "dark music" makes sense to you

So we have only the common meanings of the word to try, and they fail, so we cannot understand the sentence.

@Tames That is possible.

In that sense it is subjective, as all language is.

natural language is a wild thing, that's why we need parallel systems, if we want to conceive some knowledge

Parallel systems?

Any language is wild!

some people would call it "metalanguage", Lacan says there's no metalanguage, as it is all language

if you want to have a theory, you need to make reductions from natural language (abstractions), so that you have a formal system

it is like a second language

like using English to talk about Portuguese

bad example, because E. and P. are both natural languages

all metalanguages have flaws, the thing is, it is possible to know where the rabbit hole is

the limitations of the system

but it is possible to create ways to manipulate problems that seemed impossible to solve

like the creation of imaginary numbers to deal with square root of -1

Lacan does this in psychoanalysis, it is amazing

to symbolize an impossibility, in his case, he uses "a", the famous "object a"

he creates speech formulas with this

How about if you just use the word "impossibility"?

you can, in his case, there's a reason why he chose the letter "a",

because in psychoanalysis there's the "big other" (superego in Freud), which he symbolizes as "A" (the big 'a'),

object a, is the "small other"

in french, other is "autre"

Too many unknown quantities for me here.

I have read a bit of Lacan, but I don't remember much of it.

even for me. Some of his texts are almost unreadable, but you notice that he knows what he is doing, because he studied a lot of things, his knowledge was incredible

besides, many times he changes the way some concepts are used, psychoanalysts are famous for turning things inside out..

and then some people get mad, say that he is making bad use of linguistic theory and such..

some of his texts are deeply encrypted. he had a purpose on doing this. almost like alchemists writing in code so that the knowledge wouldn't be distorted or used in a bad way

it is like you can only reach some important stuff if you really study hard

so who is not commited to it will give up soon

@Tames I think I am one of those people.

I prefer texts to be as clearly written as possible. Because it's hard enough already!

if you ever want o read lacan, never begin with "ecrits", you will give up sooner than later

Hehe.

it is worth though, you know, because his texts are endless. you can read and reread a paragraph many times and keep on taking new ideas out of it,

I must admit the clarity of analytic philosophers is what tends to draw me more towards them.

It better fits my mode of thought I think.

I do like and admire certain continental philosophers and theories.

it is inexhaustible

Like Kant.

the intersting thing is, Lacan also has this "clarity" side. He made formulas and graphics

but it takes a while to get them

some people say he is too tidy. others say he is too messy.

Formulae and graphs often make things less clear for me...

i wish someday i will understand this

"the graph of desire"

Haha oh dear.

Sorry, but that looks laughable.

@Tames Looks like a finite state machine

looks like an alien mantis, doesn't it?

And also like a bug

Otavio, what is it?

finite state machine

It looks like an inefficient means of communication...

Basically, a graph where you declare all the possible states in which a system can be

And all the state transitions

Cerberus, great insight. communication is lousy

@OtavioMacedo Oh, those. I know what you mean. All possible combinations.

indeed. possibly that is what the graph explains

@Tames It is barely an insight!

an outsight maybe

@Cerberus Yup.

Otavio, I think that for Lacan, all of this is happening at the same time. the arrows indicate how the relation is oriented, as i see it

maybe it is an infinite state machine? sounds like Lacan

@Tames Haha better.

Otavio, this is the Oedipus for Lacan

Ohhhh is that what he means!

Why didn't he say so before?

It's just A with a circle and S with no circle, and some lines and arrows.

it is like a person looking at the mirror, but he only knows it is an image of himself because another person is pointing at and saying "this is you" (probably the mother)

Didn't know it was so simple.

first the person is in the oedipical relation (triangular relation), with the castration he/she changes position and gets out of it

maybe the perverse never leaves the triangle

i'm not sure

Guys, what do you think about white nail polish? a)beautiful, b)nasty, c)WTH is nail polish?

On a woman? I'm not a huge fan.

But I don't hate it either.

definitely c)

It can't be pink, though.

Cerb, any pink? even discrete ones?

@OtavioMacedo I guess they don't have nail polish in SP. Brazilian women are known to be austere and introverted.

@Tames I don't know, I find it a bit Barbie-like.

But if it fits the outfit, perhaps.

Why?

i just want an opinion. i've painted my nails white, but i find the color too strong, i mean, high contrast with the skin even though 'im not tanned. i usually paint my nails in some less contrasting color

i wanted some opinions from men

sometimes i paint them pink, but very light, pastel tones

Hmm if you as a man paint your nails, I suppose different rules apply, hehe.

Photos, or it didn't happen

It is more alternative.

Yes, photos!

hahah

let me see if i can get one

Yeah, attach a picture of your face to it so we can tell you if it looks good on you.

hahaha gigi

i may post a picture of my face, if everyone else does!

What kind of woman you are that you are interested in men's opinion only?

Never heard such a thing.

Cerb and Otavio, @Tames is talking to you.

Show us how you look like or you didn't happen.

Gigi... of course, I'd love to know your opinion!

the thing is I always go for light colors, and even though it is white, i find it very contrasting

i'd never paint my nails red, or blue, for example

Wait, you are a man, aren't you?

not a very good picture, but this is what was possible

Oh, I guess not.

Cerb

That does look interesting.

!

thanks!

I thought you said you were a man!

How old are you?

28

Cerb.. no! I said that my name is commonly a masculine name

Ohh...

Gee.

don't you see the white female spirit sitting on the bull?

@Tames It does look neat.

The other Tames I know is a man.

@Tames I didn't know that was you.

Cerb, are you disappointed? lol

Thanks gigi!

What do you think, Otavio?

No, why would I? Just confused, hehe.

hahaha

I think you would have to wear an extravagantly-coloured outfit with those nails!

I never wear extravagantly-coloured outfit! I'm a classic dresser. but I may use a coloured scarf

Otavio?

Hmm then I'm not sure what to think about the white.

I'd have to see the outfit.

it can't be so complicated, i'll be wearing this nail polish for a whole week. Do you want to see all my outfits to make a decision? lol

Hehe.

Perhaps some other time.

;)

I can't get no. 13 again in one slice, btw.

I got it once yesterday.

But today?

i think it is a myth lol

Nothing.

No!

It's true!

Otavio asked for the photo and didn't comment

/me sobs

Cerb, did you play z-rox?

Gigi, do you have your nails painted?

Z-rox?

What is that about?

another game, i posted the link for you, let me see if i can find it again

you begin to have visual hallucinations after a while, at least I did

notdoppler.com/z-rox.php

not sure if you will find it fun, but it is intriguing

probably inspired by the book Flatland

What was your final score in the slice game?

give me the link to the game, please

?

nevermind, got it

Oh, that is pretty original. And Flatlandish.

But I don't get level 7.

It looks like a v.

I know I already got that one earlier.'

But it is like this: