lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Otavio Macedo

00:43

Bem-vindo ao Linguistics, @Tames!

Tames

17:09

Hi, I'm new to this, I wonder if someone can help me out with a problem... maybe it is a bug, I don't know

I posted a question in meta but didn't get any answers

I had won some reputation, i was '13', but when I logged in again, the status disappeared. It only reappeared when I clicked at some notes about my status,

now I gained some more status, and it appears right away, but the old one was lost

now I see, in the chat, below my icon, '26', would be my correct status.. but when I open the page with questions, it is not there

Gigili

17:23

@Tames Your reputations is shown for each SE site separately.

Tames

@Gigili I know, even so.

@OtavioMacedo oi! obrigada por corrigir minhas postagens. Descobri este site ontem e estou adorando.

Gigili

What you see here in chat (below your avatar) is your total rep.

When you open English.SE, you see 11 rep.

When you open Linguistics.SE, you see 13 rep.

Tames

@Gigili oh, I guess i thought "linguistics" and "english language and usage" were only one SE. i see it now.

Gigili

When you open blahblahblah.SE, you see X rep.

@Tames Good.

Tames

@Gigili thanks a lot! it is kind of hard to earn reputation in the beggining. i was kind of upset. lol

Gigili

17:30

@Tames I know. Don't worry, no one would steal your reputation!

Tames

@Gigili Not worried about robbers, but freaking bugs. Always possible! As my reputation disappeared I couldn't even join the chat or meta to ask about my problem

@Gigili how long have you been using SE? I'm worried, in 24h I became an addict. I should be writing some paper for the university right now lol

Gigili

@Tames Right, that must be frustrating.

Tames

@Gigili (of course it is some pointless paper, otherwise I'd do it with joy)

Gigili

@Tames Haha. It's quite addicting. I'm not sure, about a year probably.

Tames

@Gigili much better than facebook, I must say (a nerd, myself), i retired from fb a long time ago.

@Gigili sadly, it's not much of an exaggeration to say that going through SE feels much better than some of my classes at the university. I wonder how much reputation could some of my teachers get around here. lol

Gigili

17:41

Hehe.

Tames

@Gigili probably you don't have this problem, as you seem to study Mathematics. A math teacher must have knowledge to conduct a classe. As I study psychology.. some teachers spend hours talking about nothing at all

@Gigili such a waste of time

Gigili

@Tames SE is incomparably better than FB.

I don't have an account, but still.

@Tames Umm, It's not specific to psychology.

Tames

@Gigili I don't even know why I made that comparison, really hahah i guess because of the possibility of socialization (a thing that i don't get much in my life)

Otavio Macedo

@Tames I know what you mean. Computer Science is the same.

Tames

@OtavioMacedo are you a student? where do you study?

Otavio Macedo

17:46

@Tames Not anymore. I have a degree on CS

Tames

@OtavioMacedo where did you do your graduation? I'm on UFPR now

Otavio Macedo

Unesp, São José do Rio Preto

I've been to Curitiba, once

Very nice city!

Tames

everytime I talk about this, it seems that education is going down the drain everywhere, in every possible area of knowledge. Maybe i'm just pessimistic, or maybe it has always been like this

Otavio Macedo

The problem is, some areas require a hands-on knowledge

Tames

yes, it is nice. I'd like to stay here, but post graduation possibilities are not very appealing here

Otavio Macedo

17:50

And in most universities, you can find professors living in an ivory tower.

Tames

I don't know if that is the problem.. at least in my area... we lack on theory, good fundamentals... it seems that everybody is becoming a technician

that is a very common argument in psychology.. "we need more practice", but what kind of practice we will have, if we don't even know what is our object of study?

Otavio Macedo

What branch of psychology appeals to you most?

Tames

psychoanalysis (Freud and Lacan).. some would say psychoanalysis is not psychology, but that would depend on the definition of psychology, which is very problematic

Otavio Macedo

Are Freud's works still relevant?

(sorry if this is a stupid question. I don't know anything about psychoanalysis)

Tames

because there are different approaches. For example, there's Behavioral science, for them, the object is behavior. For Lacan, psychoanalysis is closer to a theory of speech. Cognitive psychology studies neurophisiology

Yes, they are relevant, but of course his work has a lot of limitations. Lacan worked a lot to improve it.

I'd say that studying only Freud nowadays is not very wise, but he stablished very important basis

Otavio Macedo

18:03

Is it true that you have to go on psychoanalysis therapy, in order to become a psychoanalyst yourself?

Tames

for example, the unconscious as a linguistic process. He didn't live to see all the progresses in linguistics from Saussure on, even though Saussure's important work being published in german around 1930, Freud didn't have contact with it

it is part of the process, it is a commonplace. But Freud itself created psychoanalysis and only submitted to it after other people understood it. It is a good thing to do it, but it's true that going to analysis does not guarantee that you'll be a good analyst

it is a complex subject. For example, in psychoanalysis it is said that the perverse character cannot be analyzed. So the perverse could not be an analyst, probably

Otavio Macedo

What is a perverse character?

Tames

The perverse forces the other person to fulfill his own fantasy. Like a torturer. So, he only goes to an analyst to make him suffer. When there is no possiblity of this, he goes away

if a perverse would become an analyst, he would rejoyce from the suffering of his analysands, instead of helping them

the perverse wants to be the eternal master

have you seen David Lynch's "Wild heart"?

Bob Peru is a good example of perversion

Otavio Macedo

No, what's it about?

adds "Wild heart" to the list of movies to watch

Is it this one?

imdb.com/title/tt0100935

Tames

Yes! This Bob Peru character.. he is so gross

lol

have you ever seen Lynch's movies? there's always a lot of psychoanalytic influence to them

"Blue velvet" too, is great,

Otavio Macedo

18:18

I've seen Mulholland Drive

Tames

and there's a perverse in it. I don't remember his name, but you'll recognize him when you see him, for sure

Blue velvet is great. maybe my favorite Lynch movie

Did you like MD?

Otavio Macedo

I don't know. It all seemed too random.

Nothing made much sense to me, when I watched it.

Tames

hahah

Blue velvet is not random, it is almost "realistic", a kind of investigation. Wild heart is more fantastic.

Gigili

@Cerberus: Are you there?

@OtavioMacedo: Do you see any grammatical errors here?

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili I don't understand the first sentence

Gigili

18:23

I found one just now. Pah.

@OtavioMacedo I guess it needs "with you" somewhere.

Tames

more fantastic I mean.. like more surrealistic, not that it is "better" than BV

@OtavioMacedo why did you ask is Freud is of any importance nowadays? have you heard bad things about psychoanalysis?

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili Like, "I was on a trip, but I hope we can work together in the future"?

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo Yes, I guess it must be something like that.

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Yes, I've heard that Freud's ideas turned out to be flawed

Something like that

@Gigili Some commas should really be periods in these sentences.

Gigili

Does "it goes to market on that day" make sense to you?

Otavio Macedo

18:29

@Gigili As in "will be released/launched/published"?

Tames

oh.. there's a book called The black book of psychoanalysis, for example, "proving" that psychoanalysis is crap. But of course, it was not written by psychoanalysis experts, but by behavioral scientists. It's like comparing oranges and apples. Psychoanalysis is not a measurable science, you can't put it to a statistical test. it works in another level.

Otavio Macedo

@Tames What level?

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo Will be available for customers to buy or something, I guess. Since it's talking about an app.

Tames

the thing is our society is walking towards the technification of human relations, and neurobiology is the ultimate truth about everything

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili Ah, so "It will be released on the same day" sounds better to me.

Tames

18:32

think about philosophical systems. Can you say one is right and the other is wrong? possibly not. they only make different assumptions. of course, this doesn't mean "it doesn't make a differente if I chose one or the other", exactly the opposite. Each system has values and consequences.

For example, psychoanalysis is very concerned with ethics. Behavioral science only wants to know how to modify one person's behavior.

Can you quantify ethics? I don't think so.

Otavio Macedo

So, would you say that psychoanalysis is more akin to philosophy than to science?

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo Uhum, thank you.

Tames

For example, "studies" proved that psychoanalysis "doesn't work". What are the criteria for "working"? What is "curing"? Psychoanalysis doesn't want everybody to be "normal", to conform, etc

Possibly. But it is not opposed to formalization, as some people consider it to be, more like "literature" than "science". It depends on what is "science", if it is "formalized knowledge", psychoanalysis can be science. If "science" is quantifying and doing statistical tests, then it is not.

Otavio Macedo

What are its goals?

@Tames Yes, the definition of science is somewhat controversial, but a science must, at least, be capable of making good predictions.

Based on past evidence.

Karl Popper would also say that scientific theories must be falsifiable.

Tames

maybe I could say that one of the goals is that the subject recognizes how his identity is molded by society, how this is not as solid as we think, how he is not "master of his own house" in some sense, that he recognizes what are his desires and fantasies.

Because all this things get in his way in everyday life. Maybe then he can understand why he thinks he wants something but does all the opposite. Analysis would help the person to identify his values, orientation in life, meaning in actions..

Otavio Macedo

18:41

@Gigili Are you developing a commercial app or something?

Tames

psychoanalysis can make some kind of prediction. When you understand what moves someone, you kind of have some idea of what his attitudes will be in certain situations. But you cannot be 100% sure, of course. It's like seeing a pattern.

if there was no pattern, the analyst would not be able to intervene, or his intervention would be useless

but analysis focus on form and not on content, so the analyst should not have a specific goal like "you should be docile", for some people being docile may be a solution, for others the solution is being aggressive. That's why it is not possible to measure the effectiveness by results

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo Umm, not really. I'm translating a text from Fa to En but the original version which needs to be translated doesn't make sense at all. I'm having a hard time understanding it.

Tames

psychoanalysis don't even expect people to be happy, satisfied, without conflicts... so how can you judge it

Otavio Macedo

What about the Oedipus complex? Do psychoanalysts still use that concept?

Tames

but it is precise in the definitions, of what is a fantasy, for example. Don't ask me now, because I wouldn't explain it well. But Lacan's dream is a full formalization of psychoanalytic concepts. He even developed "formulas", that he called "matemas" and "grafos"

look for it in google images

he studied a lot of logic, topology.. Lacan is amazing

very hard to study, because he uses a lot of references implicitly

Yes, the Oedipus complex is very important, but maybe it is very misunderstood,

it has to do with the rupture in the relationship between the kid and the mother, in such a way that this kid can become a social being

it has to do with structuring of values, etc

but the 3 'personality sctructures' have different relations with this (neurotic, psychotic and perverse)

Otavio Macedo

18:54

What is the difference between neurosis and psychosis?

Tames

that's why some people claim that oedipus is not universal, but i think this approach is very content directed instead of formal

this is not very simple and i'm only beggining to understand (i hope i'll understand it completely one day), let me see how can i explain it..

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo Thank you for your help.

Tames

the psychotic is a little bit like a sponge, or like a piece of soft clay, it is like he does not have pre conceived values, it depends on his context. While everybody suffers influence from the exterior, the neurotic is more attached to some identity. the psychotic.. is like he makes up an identity in some situation. it is not like multiple personalities..

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili No problem!

Tames

but it is like.. for some time he lives in a city, has a girfriend X, a job Y.. if he loses this references, maybe he can become almost a completely new person, because he his stable references

a neurotic will hardly change, even if he changes jobs, relationships, etc. because he has a strong inner reference of value, which Lacan calls "phalus"

it is important to notice that the psychotic suffers from these changes, when the references disappear he may suffer an outbreak

he may even commit suicide, because without values, nothing matters

or may suffer from delusions, like feeling that something really bad can happen (some specific thing, like suffering an accident or else)

it is like there is no safe place in the world

the neurotic always have some kind of safety, something to turn to

the psychotic may have it only temporarily, or almost a "handmade" reference. the neurotic has it from the start, it is something he got from the "oedipus" phase, that the psychotic didn't

is this understandable? lol

Otavio Macedo

19:07

Yes, but from your description, the neurotic seems quite "normal" to me.

Tames

maybe it is more common, it seems to be so. for psychoanalysis everyone is one thing or another (neurotic, psychotic or perverse). of course, i'm only talking about some aspects of it.

the neurotics tend to be in eternal conflict, never know what they want, regreting, etc. psychotics are more peaceful in this sense, because if you do not have a plan, you never get lost

each one has his own problems

Otavio Macedo

Oh, I see. These are just labels to classify human behavior. Not necessarily pathologies.

Tames

as Freud said it, pathologies would only show structures that are present in every human being, only hidden

but of course you could have some kind of pathological problem, if the person considers it to be so... like "i spend so much time msturbating that i lost my job", supposing that you do want to have a job, this would be a problem

if you are ok with it, psychoanalysis will not say that you shouldn't do it

psychoanalysis dosn't have previous answers on what is good or bad, pathological or not

Otavio Macedo

Hmm, that's interesting!

Tames

when Freud wrote his famous text on sexuality (3 essays on sexuality, i think), he was trying to reason what is normal and what is not normal about it, he came to the conclusion that there are no rules. Even kissing could be considered a perversion

perversion in the sense of not being natural

if nature of sex is copulating to produce babies, everything that deviates from this would not be normal

i guess it is not hard to see why this doesn't apply to humans

there's not such thing as normality. we tend to think that we are not normal and someone else is, but soon we find out they are thinking the same

Gigili

19:23

24

Q: Am I the only one getting addicted to this site? How do you manage time doing other things?

On one hand, this site is a blessing because we can all learn a lot quickly looking at some technical questions/topics being discussed. On the other hand, this could also be addictive. Maybe set aside 1/2 hour every day for this? What time management strategies have you all used and can you su...

discussion

Tames

the neurotic dreams that someday he'll be flawless, the perverse that he is flawless (but he is not), maybe the psychotic is not quite sure about what is a flaw

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili Very addictive, indeed.

Tames

@Gigili lol

and now that i was allowd to chat, i'm doomed

@OtavioMacedo i have no management skills

otavio or gigili

lol

Otavio Macedo

@Tames By the way, you might consider voting:

3

Q: What type of feed would you like to have on our chat room?

Until recently, new questions were posted on our chat room as regular messages (by a generic user called Stack Exchange). As such, they were persistent and remained on the chat history forever. Some users found it annoying, so I decided to enable another way of feeding new questions to our chat. ...

discussion

Tames

a typical neurotic "I'm the only addict in the world" lol

Otavio Macedo

19:26

@Gigili thinks this is a men's conspiracy to take over Linguistics.SE

So, you may help her in her uprising against us :-P

Tames

Otavio, I'm not sure i understand your topic.

actually i have no idea

lol

Otavio Macedo

Ok, after chatting here for a while, you will understand.

Tames

hmm, is it the green thing?

(retry/cancel)?

Otavio Macedo

No. Every time a user posts a new question, we get a notification here.

Tames

ah

Otavio Macedo

19:31

There are two kinds of notification: as regular message (a user called Stack Exchange posts a link to it)

The other way is by a "window" that appears on the left upper corner

You can dismiss that message and it won't appear again

Tames

but is there a way to get a taste of what second option feels like? because i only experienced the first one

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Only when a new question is posted.

Gigili

Like the question I posted a few minutes ago, it'll be like that.

Otavio Macedo

Yup. English.SE is using Ticker feeds.

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo Should I drop a hint to him?

Otavio Macedo

19:36

Since they have lots of questions all the time, you may have a chance to see the ticker at any moment, there.

Gigili

Like, you'll win a prize if you choose the second one.

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili to whom?

Tames

i guess i don't mind, could be either way. but I could vote for option 2 if it doesn't make a difference for me, anyway

lol

(i guess i'm a psycho, i adapt)

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Oh, so this is officially a men vs women issue.

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo To Tames, he seems to need help!

Tames

19:38

is it?

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili It's her.

Gigili

Oh, dear.

Tames

i didn't understant you both

please someone explain

Gigili

I'm not alone here.

Good, good.

Tames

i'm lost

this conversation is dismanteling

haha

Otavio Macedo

19:41

Let me try

Until a few hours ago, Gigili was the only girl to visit this chat regularly.

Now, it seems that you're gonna be a regular here, too (so I expect)

Tames

i wish i wasn't so regular, but i guess i won't be able to help it

hahah

so?

Otavio Macedo

Well, it seems that, so far, the only two users in this site that prefer the ticker option are women.

While men seem to prefer the other option

Tames

if i post a question and it doesn't get an answer in two days, will it be lost in the endless flow of new question? or is there a chance that someone will come back to it?

i don't prefer ticker, i said i don't mind either options, and that i could vote for ticker to help you

Otavio Macedo

If you edit it, it will come back at the top

You can also offer a bounty

But you've got to have some more reputation.

Tames

did any of you see my question on logic? i hope i'm not harassing you here

but i really want to know this

one person didn't quite get it and the other dismissed is as a false problem

Otavio Macedo

19:49

@Tames I'm afraid you're talking about another site.

Tames

philosophy

Otavio Macedo

You haven't asked any question here.

Oh, let me see

Tames

but maybe i could post it in linguistic too, may I repeat a question in different SEs?

Otavio Macedo

@Tames You could, but only if you expect to get different answers, from different perspectives.

SE discourages cross-posting

Tames

well, i guess i'll just wait for a while

Otavio Macedo

19:52

Aristotle's categories may be of help.

Tames

oh, and I cannot vote on your question, I haven't got enough rep

hm

Otavio Macedo

Beautify is to add an accident to a substance

And beauty may not classify as a substance...

I don't know

Tames

interesting

i think your comment is the closest to what i'm looking for

Otavio Macedo

But I seem to recall him giving a similar example

But with whiteness

Tames

i was so pissed by this guy saying this is not a logical problem

i need to read Aristotle anyway, Lacan loves him

Otavio Macedo

19:55

I think you can find this in the "Categories"

It's short and not so hard to follow.

Tames

thanks a lot

Gigili

Heck. How long does this buffering video thingy take?

The match ends and it's still buffering video ...

Otavio Macedo

@Tames I'll try to post a full-blown answer to your question.

@Gigili What are you trying to watch?

Gigili

Germany vs. Denmark

Otavio Macedo

Up the Danes!!!

Tames

20:02

@OtavioMacedo nice!

Gigili

@OtavioMacedo In your dream

Are you watching the match @Otavio?

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili Nope. I'm just teasing you :-)

Gigili

Thank you, thank you.

Tames

@OtavioMacedo why are you interested in linguistics?

Otavio Macedo

@Tames I don't know. I'm interested in a lot of things.

Languages fascinate me.

2

The myriad of ways to convey the same message through different grammatical constructions and rules.

The way languages change over time.

Tames

20:12

does it relate to your work in some way?

Otavio Macedo

Not to my work, directly.

But linguistics is related to computer science in some ways.

Tames

are you interested in some specific author in this area?

Otavio Macedo

Hmm, only the "pop" ones. Steven Pinker, John McWhorter...

I wish I had more time to study linguistics in depth.

Tames

pinker is a neurobiologist, right?

mcwhorter... don't know him

Otavio Macedo

@Tames I think cognitive scientist is a more appropriate description.

Tames

20:18

you must read Saussure, not sure if you would like him, but he is one of the most important linguists of all, he influenced everybody, so much that people don't even give themselves the trouble of making reference

Otavio Macedo

John McWhorter

John Hamilton McWhorter V (1965– ) is an American linguist and political commentator. He is the author of a number of books on language and on race relations. His research specialties are how creole languages form and how language grammars change as the result of sociohistorical phenomena. Early life McWhorter was born and raised in Philadelphia. He attended Friends Select School in Philadelphia, and after tenth grade was accepted to Simon's Rock College, where he earned an A.A. degree. Later, he attended Rutgers University and received a B.A. in French in 1985. He received a master...

Tames

i'm done with biology and evolution

you must read Curso de linguística geral

it's kind of messy, because it was a compilation made by students after his death, but it is a clssic

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Nice! I think I have this book in pdf.

Tames

Saussure, Benveniste, Jakobson - 3 great authors in linguistics

Jakobson's Linguistica e comunicação, is a small and powerful book

highly recommended

love it

i don't know why, in usa everything tends to go biological... french tradition is much more charming, philosophical

Otavio Macedo

@Tames what about Chomsky? Didn't he follow in the footsteps of Saussure?

Tames

20:25

i guess all linguists followed Saussure's footsteps in someway... actually i don't know Chomsky very well. i guess he proposes good problems.

Gigili

Juhuu. Bye, bye Denmark, it has been fun.

Tames

all i know is that he proposes that language has one structure and one deeper structure, something like that. it didn't appeal much to me.

i should try to know better, because i should be able to make a dialogue with his ideas

i think he is not strucuralist in some sense, that the system he creates is not enough, he has to refer to things outside the system to make an explanation

i'm taking a shot here, it would be better to study more before speaking

but it is something like.. language works as a system, but to explain something in this system he has to jump out of it and talk about the brain

do any of you have a religion, believe in god?

Gigili

I'm religious, yes.

Tames

some specific religion? or just "i believe in god"?

Gigili

I'm Muslim.

Juhuuu, Peeeeeeep! Peeeeeeep! Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeep! 2-1, viva Germany!

Otavio Macedo

20:38

I'm not religious. Not atheist either.

I think "agnostic" would be the word.

Tames

@OtavioMacedo do you think the existence of god cannot be proved or disproved, or do you think this question is not a real problem?

Otavio Macedo

@Tames I don't even know what the word "God" means.

But I have a deep respect for religious people.

Tames

is it rude to ask about religion? maybe i should think about this before asking

i'm kind of impulsive

Otavio Macedo

@Tames I don't mind at all. But it is a sensitive matter, yes.

Tames

i guess i'm kind of and elephant walking through a crystal shop. but maybe i'm just a fainted spirit sitting in a big bull... going through a garden of lillies

lol

an elephant

Gigili

20:45

How romantically tragic.

Tames

i hope there's not an abyss at the end of the lily field lol

i spent the whole afternoon pretending that i was chatting AND doing my homework at the same time. now i'm done with it, i closed the homework and will dedicate myself entirely to SE

Otavio Macedo

Yeah, it's like "Working is the curse of the drinking class"

Tames

21:28

it is not possible to know who voted for my answer, is it?

Gigili

It's got downvoted?

Tames

no, upvoted. if it's downvoted can i know?

Gigili

Well, it's not possible to see whom up/downvoted but it's possible to see how many up/downvotes it's got. You need to be a 1k user or something.

Tames

@Gigili good. otherwise i'd be obsessing over who voted for what lol

Gigi, why did you change your icon

you were closed now you are erotic, dramatic change

Gigili

Haha. I'm moody like that.

Tames

21:34

is it you in the picture?

Gigili

No, it's not me.

I'm still closed, in case you're wondering. But differently.

Tames

what do you mean?

Gigili

I mean, I'm in the same mood.

Tames

moody mood?

hahah

how can you be the same being differently?

human beings are so intriguing

Gigili

@Tames I'm awesome like that.

Tames

21:40

i gotta go now, it was very nice meeting you both

and who knoes, maybe next time the three headed dog will be alive to talk to the other mythic creatures in the room

good night everybody and thanks for all the help

Gigili

@Tames Likewise.

Good night.

Otavio Macedo

@Tames Bye!

Cerberus

22:40

Hello!

Transcript for