lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Stack Exchange

06:10

0

Q: How does aspect condition an ergative split?

I've never heard of a natural language that has ergative-absolutive marking alone. From what I've read, languages with said marking also have nominative-accusative marking, with the choice or "split" between the two types of marking conditioned by some semantic or syntactic factor. For example...

syntax

Stack Exchange

07:04

0

Q: What are the contrasts between classifiers in isolating languages and genders in highly inflected ones?

Both isolating languages and inflected languages can have ways of marking noun classes like masculine nouns, nouns that stand for flat things, etc. Some isolating languages, like Chinese, have classifiers that outnumber the grammatical genders in highly inflected European languages. I'm bet...

syntax morphology

0

Q: Is there anything analogous to grammatical gender for verbs?

Grammatical gender often seems arbitrary from a semantic point of view. When I was taking French many years ago, we were told that one must simply memorize the gender for each noun. Are there any languages with similar markings on the verb--obligatory morphological markers for the verb that typ...

syntax morphology

0

Q: Is the apico-labial trill a phoneme in any language?

As far as anyone here knows, are there any natural languages in which the apico-labial trill is a phoneme?

phonology

Cerberus

07:14

@David: Do you really think all Croatians hate the term "Serbo-Croatian"?

I think we are gravitating towards bosnian-croatian-serbian.

But can't we do something with Bosno- and Croato-?

I like them better as prefixes.

And, by the way, how about the other dialects, or whatever they are?

Kosovar, Montenegrine, Slovenian...?

And isn't there another region of Serbia that want more autonomy?

Ah, Vojvodina, yes.

I guess the Kosovars speak Albanian?

Gigili

Whom exactly are you talking to?

Hi, BTW.

Stack Exchange

07:34

0

Q: What is permansive aspect?

I'm having a great deal of difficulty finding an adequate definition of "permansive aspect" on the web. I know what aspect is, more or less, but the meaning of the term "permansive" eludes me.

aspect

Gigili

@StackExchange You asked it already.

Cerberus

Hi!

Whom do you think?

Gigili

David Copperfield?

David Beckham?

David Gigili?

Cerberus

Guess.

Gigili

07:53

Umm, out of guess.

Uh, got it got it. David Walker?

Cerberus

Guess again.

Gigili

08:08

Okay, you're making a fool of me.

You don't know the answer yourself.

Cerberus

But I do.

Gigili

Do tell us.

Cerberus

How many Davids do you know that frequent this room?

Gigili

Twelve.

Twelve Davids, twenty Cerbs, fifty Alenannos and one Otavio.

David Wallace

08:27

@Cerberus Certainly the majority of them. And if you use the prefixes, it sounds like you're trying to cover the language with just one term. Which is the offensive bit.

@Gigili There you go, imagining us married again! :-)

@Cerberus Do you really want me to explain the different languages and different dialects of former Yugoslavia to you?

@Cerberus I don't know if you're thinking of Kosovo here. I don't think Vojvodina is ever going to break off from Serbia.

Cerberus

08:43

@DavidWallace Why? Isn't it considered one language by linguists?

@DavidWallace No, no, no!

@DavidWallace I said autonomy.

Kosovo is de facto independent already.

But you know that.

David Wallace

@Cerberus "de facto", maybe. There are more countries that don't recognise its independence than do.

Cerberus

Sure.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Yes, but giving it a single name suggests a degree of unity between Croatians and Serbians, which is offensive to many of them.

Cerberus

Why does it suggest this?

David Wallace

Imagine if, in the 1940s, some linguist suggested referring to Yiddish as "Judaeo-German".

Cerberus

08:47

I don't know, I have no problem with that, except that we already have Yiddish as an established term.

David Wallace

@Cerberus It would be acceptable now, but not 70 years ago.

Cerberus

I don't hear the Belgians or the Dutch complaining about Nederlands, or the Americans/New Zealanders about English...

David Wallace

NZers haven't just been at war with England.

Cerberus

The Americans never objected to "English".

David Wallace

@Cerberus are you sure?

Cerberus

08:49

None that were taken seriously.

David Wallace

I think that there were some very serious people behind the movement to rename the language "American", in the late 18th century. I guess Americans figured that they were so far away from England, that there was nothing to gain.

Cerberus

But were they taken seriously?

In any case, language should not be involved with politics.

Changing a name doesn't change reality.

David Wallace

I believe so, but hey, I wasn't there. But I am here now, and I can assure you that the term "Serbo-Croat" is offensive to me, my whanau, and a huge majority of the people from Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia.

Cerberus

If linguists consider the unnamed language one language, then should they ignore this fact just because people dislike this fact?

David Wallace

They don't ignore the fact. They just use three different names for the language.

Just like "Hindi/Urdu".

Gotta go. I'll be back later.

Cerberus

08:54

Not using one name in linguistics would amount to ignoring the fact by linguists. It is like calling liquid butter X and solid butter Y and being offended if someone calls them "butter" collectively.

It hinders science.

OK bye!

Hindi-Urdu

Hindi-Urdu (हिंदी उर्दू, ) is an Indo-Aryan language and the lingua franca of North India and Pakistan. It is also known as Hindustani (हिन्दुस्तानी, , ', , literally: "of Hindustan"), and historically, as Hindavi or Rekhta. It derives primarily from the Khariboli dialect of Delhi, and incorporates a large amount of vocabulary from Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit and Turkic. It is a pluricentric language, with two official forms, Standard Hindi and Standard Urdu, which are standardized registers of it. Colloquial Standard Hindi and Urdu are all but indistinguishable, and even the official stand...

Notice how it is called Hindi-Urdu.

Not Hindi/Urdu.

However much the billion people in India and Pakistan may be offended.

The single name reflects the linguistic fact.

Besides, you seemed to be in favour of bosnian-croatian-serbian in the Meta thread, so what has changed?

Gigili

@DavidWallace Huh?

Alenanno

Hello everyone

@Gigili I see you re-deleted yourself...

Gigili

Hi.

I what-ed what?

Alenanno

0

A: Let's create a regular chat event!

User - Time Zone Alenanno: +1 Otavio: -3 Danger: 0

You deleted yourself

:)

Gigili

You said "re-deleted"?

Yes, I changed my mind.

Because I'm here all the time except when I am not here.

As Prof.Cerb said.

Alenanno

09:06

@Gigili Oh but that is not a "register form"...

That is for me as a reminder for your time zone...

Gigili

You already know my timezone?

Alenanno

Well, I suppose I do now?

Gigili

You didn't before?

Alenanno

Well, I knew your nation, but I didn't know its time zone.

Gigili

Well, you could Google it.

Nation is the only sufficient information to find out one's time zone, I presume.

Alenanno

09:13

@Gigili Ok but I don't have to do all the work myself, do I? :)

Gigili

:4585424 Thank you for your support.

Alenanno

@Gigili He was joking, I think. :)

Cerberus

You should be glad I'm not making it easier to find.

Gigili

I'm being paranoid right at the moment.

Cerberus

Then maybe ask Ale to delete the lines?

By the way, everyone knows where I live, and you could easily stalk me.

Gigili

09:14

I think someone is planning on killing me.

Alenanno

@Cerberus I stalk you every day. O_O

Cerberus

Who?

Alenanno

@Cerberus Doctor Who.

Cerberus

@Alenanno Ahh so that's who that weird guy is who's always following me around.

Alenanno

Now, who's following you, yes who, I mean who.

@Gigili It's Doctor Who.

Cerberus

09:15

@Gigili Do you seriously have a stalker?

Gigili

Yes Ale, could you please delete those lines?

Alenanno

@Gigili what lines?

Gigili

@Cerberus I feel so.

Cerberus

@Gigili I think you should do the work to find them.

Gigili

@Alenanno The ones I talked about moving to another place.

Cerberus

09:16

Not fair if Ale has to go find them.

Gigili

Okay, hang on.

Alenanno

if you tell me a keyword

I can find them

Cerberus

Unless you can't find them, of course.

Alenanno

Just tell me

some keyword

Gigili

@Alenanno You have to, that's why we voted for you.

Alenanno

09:18

@Gigili Done.

Cerberus

Ale is tha best mod! Together with Otavio.

3

Alenanno

Ahah thanks Cerb!

I'll have to modestly star that.

Gigili

@Alenanno Thanks.

Cerberus

And also the most narcissist mod! Not together with Otavio (so far).

Alenanno

@Gigili No problem :)

@Cerberus Buaahahah

@Cerberus What did you say? turns away from the mirror

Cerberus

09:20

Be careful lest you fall in love with yourself.

Gigili

I suppose, you should delete the following messages containing the same word.

Cerberus

"Should"?

Gigili

Have to?

Cerberus

Manners, My Queen!

Gigili

I mean, please.

Cerberus

09:21

"Could you please...?"

Gigili

That^.

Cerberus

"Should" and "have to" imply obligation.

Gigili

I already said "could you please ...".

Do me a favor and delete the rest.

Better?

Alenanno

What same word?

:P

Gigili

You need to prove that you're the best mod. As long as I can't unstar that message.

Alenanno

09:30

Oh

today it's Mother's Day!

Gigili

It was yesterday.

Alenanno

@Gigili It's today here. :P

Guys, do you use Twitter?

Cerberus

I ain't no bird.

@Alenanno Are you visiting your mother?

I should.

I'm going to call my brother.

Alenanno

@Cerberus I talked to her. :)

Gigili

@Cerberus What did you buy for her?

Cerberus

09:38

@Alenanno Heh. Almost as good. Does she live far away?

@Gigili We don't buy things.

Do you?

Alenanno

@Cerberus Yup! :) A sea away!

Cerberus

She lives on the mainland?

Gigili

@Cerberus We do.

Cerberus

Dove? Did you grow up there?

Alenanno

I'm the one who went out :P

Cerberus

09:39

Why to Sardinia?

Alenanno

@Cerberus Wait... I came from there.

I am in the mainland.

Cerberus

Oh!

Huh.

Alenanno

Actually...

Cerberus

I thought you were on the island.

Alenanno

I'm at the top

looking at you through your window

Cerberus

09:40

At the top of what?

Alenanno

top of Europe

:D

Cerberus

The Mont Blanc?

Lapland?

Alenanno

Not in that sense... in a geographic map sense

:P

Cerberus

You're going to have to be a bit clearer.

Alenanno

Uhm

it was a bad joke attempt

Cerberus

09:41

Oh hehe.

In that case I failed to pick it up.

Alenanno

I meant at the top of Europe

but

if you consider europe as in a map... So, considering latitude.

Cerberus

Europe to me is not a vertical thing with a single top.

I suggested Lapland?

Alenanno

That's correct, but I meant in your nation... I failed there

:D

Cerberus

The top of Europe in my nation...

We're at the bottom!

Below sea level.

Alenanno

You still fail to get it

but it's ok

lol

Anyway

Is your place humid?

Cerberus

09:49

@Alenanno I do fail!

Explain it to me!

Gigili

Don't you, @Cerb?

What's this, then?

Cerberus

@Alenanno Yes, fairly humid, as in lots of rain.

Gigili

Cerberus

Although we do have fresh sea breezes.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Take a Europe Map... Ok the top is Norway, but considering the Europe-body, you're over Germany, at the top. :P

Cerberus

09:50

@Gigili By "we" I meant my brother and me. It is considered a bit middle class to buy presents at mother's day.

Even if you mean only the mainland, and you exclude Norway/Sweden/Finland, and you take only the founding member-states of the EU, Denmark is still more to the north...

Gigili

@Cerberus Middle class?

Cerberus

BUT I see what you mean!

I guess everybody is on top for Italians.

Although Greece and Malta are even more to the south than Italy.

@Gigili The giving of presents on Mother's Day was invented by shopkeepers as an advertising stunt, or so they say.

Alenanno

@Cerberus So pedantic! :D

Cerberus

That's me!!

In fact, the Netherlands are in the southern half of the map.

Yay!

claps hands

Alenanno

bows

Gigili

09:59

@Cerberus So are birthday gifts. You shouldn't buy a present for your beloved one.

Alenanno

@Gigili What if I want to? :P

Cerberus

10:22

@Gigili I sort of agree, but alas birthday presents are almost universal.

Alenanno

10:35

Gifts are not bad by default.

What counts is why you give them.

If it is because "you socially must" then it's worse than giving a gift because you feel you want to.

Cerberus

Yeah, but it is usually a social obligation. I like giving a present when I actually have a good idea, but that's usually not the case.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Exactly, when you have a good idea. :)

Cerberus

@Alenanno But you do bring a present when you think it is expected of you, don't you? I usually do, though I have not brought a present on occasion.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Uhm... Not really, it depends.

Cerberus

10:55

Perhaps you are one of those people who always have good ideas! shakes fist

Alenanno

@Cerberus I don't! :D

Gigili

I'd spend a year to think of a wonderful present for my mother, who's more worthy of attention.

Exactly what you would do about your girlfriends.

David Wallace

11:25

@Cerberus No, I AM in favour of hyphens separating the three languages, as a tag name. So long as you don't reduce the first one or first two to a prefix.

So, serbian-croatian = Good; serbo-croatian = Bad.

I'm assuming we can't have slashes in tag names, which would be better still.

Alenanno

@DavidWallace Just a note: the "prefix" is not a degrading thing... If you say "italo-americano", it's not degrading to italians, I think. :)

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Because you see the format "Bosnian-Croation-Serbian" as denoting three separate languages?

David Wallace

@Cerberus Yes, exactly.

Or at least, three separate names.

Cerberus

Okay, then this once the tag format saves us, haha.

Because it is ambiguous.

David Wallace

Compare Australian-American-English (which feels like a list), to Australo-Americo-English (which feels like some kind of ghastly hybrid dialect).

Cerberus

11:42

To me there is no difference outside the tag format.

Though I guess it would be a bit different if Australian e.a. were words that were commonly used as nouns.

David Wallace

Really? Australian-American-English and Australo-Americo-English feel the same to you? I find that odd.

Cerberus

Now I don't know any more.

@DavidWallace Actually neither make sense, so perhaps we should pick a different example.

Alenanno

Welcome @leonigmig

:)

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Compare Austro-Hungarian.

The "Austro-Hungarian Empire" just means "the Empire consisting of Austria and Hungaria".

But I suppose that's different, because "Empire" is a different category from "Austrian" and "Hungarian".

David Wallace

Yes, Austro-Hungarian sounds like "pertaining to the AH Empire", whereas Austrian-Hungarian sounds either like a list, or possibly like a person whose mother is Austrian and whose father is Hungarian, or something similar.

Cerberus

11:48

I don't know. You would normally not make a list like that.

How about "this root did not exist in Indo-European".

It just means that there is one entity that consists of two elements.

There is no implied order.

And compare "social-economic factors" to "socio-economic factors".

David Wallace

The order is not the issue. In former Yugoslavia, the terms Srpsko-Hrvatski and Hrvatsko-Srpski were both used, before 1992. Now, both are considered offensive.

Cerberus

They would mean the same, except that the former is probably rare.

OK but I was trying to show how a hyphenated adjective that consists of normal -an or -al elements, which are interchangeable, does not feel like a list of separate elements, but rather like an collective consisting of these elements.

So more or less equivalent to using prefixes with the Greek -o- theme vowel.

Alenanno

Guys, I'm off for a while

later

Gigili

An collective?

Cerberus

Bai!

@Gigili Oh...I was going to type amalgam.

But then decided against it.

David Wallace

11:55

@Cerberus I don't think social-economic means the same as socio-economic.

Gigili

@Cerberus I was surprised how you pronounce "collective" so that you'd say "an".

Cerberus

@DavidWallace How would you describe the difference, then?

David Wallace

I would describe it early in the day, when I'm less tired than I am now.

Cerberus

Haha.

Allrighty.

It's 2 AM, right?

David Wallace

Midnight, actually.

I'm only 10 hours ahead of you from April to September.

Cerberus

11:59

Oh!

So confusing.

Gigili

17:05

What do you call the 3 points to 20?

A grade lacks three points till 20?

points? grades?

Gigili

17:28

Thank you for your attention.

Cerberus

23:48

@Gigili I'm not sure what you mean.

The grade is three points below twenty?

Ah.

A grade could be counted in points.

If a school grade can be "20", then it's most likely counted in points?

But why don't you just say "the grade is seventeen"?

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