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05:43
@Cerberus Are you saying that some people will perform the ceremonies of a religion without believing its tenets? For example, one might make regular visits to a mosque, pray five times a day, fast during Ramadan, learn Arabic in order to read the Qu'ran, maybe even go to Mecca, but yet not seriously believe in Allah. Why would someone do such things? It seems fundamentally dishonest to me.
06:09
@DavidWallace You're unaware of your Protestant prejudice, if I may exaggerate a little bit.
Protestants are all about belief, scripture, conscience.
Many other forms of religion are less like that.
06:36
@Cerberus Yes, I expect you're right. Perhaps I should use a word other than "religion".
@DavidWallace Perhaps? I don't know what you're after...
22 hours ago, by David Wallace
I don't understand why people think they can choose their religion. I didn't choose mine.
@DavidWallace Oh, right.
and what I meant by "religion" was "which God (or otherwise) they believe in".
Well, what if all that matter to you is that there is kind if friendly God, and people should be nice to each other, and some kind of rituals are a nice way to honour her/him.
It may not matter to you whether you call her Gaia or Allah.
Or the Pink Elephant.
06:41
I liked Zeus better in your last comment.
I felt like including a woman.
The exact acts of the rituals may not matter to you, as long as they are respectful, since you know that any kind of ritual is necessarily arbitrary and determined by historical coincidences. You are aware of the fact that "Catholicism" has included radically different rituals and creeds over the millennia.
So it would seem silly to you to place too much worth in kissing the Saint's toe twice or thrice.
Especially since the worship of Saints was abomination in the Catholic Church until a certain date.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But if I read the Bible, I see very specific entry criteria for Heaven, and I end up thinking that the exact parameters of my belief might be vitally important.
@DavidWallace And how many religions do you know that follow every single sentence in their holy book to the letter?
The Quran, on the other hand, is a little more flexible.
Surely you are aware of the fact that any holy book contains a thousand contradictions.
06:45
@Cerberus There are fundamentalists in lots of religions.
@Cerberus which is part of the reason why I have difficulty adopting any of the standard religions, other than atheism.
@DavidWallace Fundamentalists choose one interpretation or fabricate one for themselves, and believe that this is the Only Possible Interpretation.
@DavidWallace Right, and many believers are equally aware of these things.
OK, but if I'm a Muslim, surely that means that I believe that the Quran, in the original Arabic, is the literal word of God. If I find a single contradiction in it, then I have to abandon all of my beliefs.
@DavidWallace And yet all Muslims accept the contradictions, often denying their existence.
People interpret contradictions away.
It has always been like that.
And maybe they're right. Maybe the apparent contradictions are an illusion. I don't know any specific contradictions, so I can't comment.
There can't be any "right".
A text is just a text.
06:49
But if God had a prophet write down His literal word, then it must be right and perfect in every detail.
Says who?
My issue with the Quran isn't any specific contradiction, but more an inconsistency of tone. Early on, it's all very nice and forgiving, particularly towards non-Muslims. Towards the end, it's less so.
God might think a certain vagueness and contradictions are good for people.
@Cerberus Well I think that's a silly point of view for a God.
@DavidWallace Right, well, the Bible is a bit the other way around, isn't it?
@DavidWallace How dare you insult Her so!
06:52
It is, but plenty of Christians don't take the Bible to be the literal word of God. I think Muslims are different in this regard.
The Bible maintains that the "Scriptures" are inspired by God, but I don't know exactly what is meant by "inspired" here, and it's not clear whether "Scriptures" includes all of the Bible, some of it, or none of it.
There is a difference between saying you interpret everything in the Quran as literally as possible and actually doing so.
I think it is chock full of contradictions and vagueness, so it would not seem possible to do so with any approximation of consistency.
Oh, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions; but if you genuinely believe that the Quran is the word of Allah, then you'll try hard to explain them away.
@DavidWallace Right, people who call themselves Christians often say they feel freer to interpret the Bible a bit less literally than those who call themselves Muslims.
(I can never remember where the apostrophe goes, in Quran)
(Haha, I tried it in both positions too, then looked at your Quran and abandoned it too)
06:56
Most Christians believe that the Bible was written by men, to the best of their abilities, and inspired by God.
Yeah.
But the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of Allah, spoken by Gabriel and written down by Mohammed.
Still, Muslims cherry pick their quotations and use free interpretation just like Christians. It's hard to quantify, of course; it may be that Muslims do in fact use more literal interpretations on average, but...that is very hard to measure. Don't be misled by what people claim to be doing.
So St John says that anyone who believes in Jesus goes to heaven. St Paul says that homosexuals never go to heaven. Since there clearly exist homosexuals who believe in Jesus, this implies that either John or Paul is not speaking the word of God.
The range of interpretations between the various groups of Muslims is as wide as between Christians.
@DavidWallace You will find similar contradictions in the Quran, guaranteed.
Most Muslims and Catholics aren't terribly bothered by this.
06:59
I'm sure I will. I just don't know the Quran anywhere near as well as I know the Bible.
Although of course there will always be theologists.
Ahhh!
@DavidWallace I know neither.
Hello!
@Mahnax Hey where'd you go?
We we just discussing Islam!
@Cerberus I did that thing again.
Hmm what was it again? The crazy thing?
07:01
Where I see you and Dave in a room on chat.SE and then click it thinking it's EL&U and it isn't.
Or the OCD logging in and out?
Oh, haha.
Then I feel like I walked in on my parents or something.
Hahaha.
Ew.
ELU is boring today.
@Cerberus Well, yeah.
07:01
But it's OK. Observation should be part of your education.
Biology, theology, what's the difference?
@Mahnax Have you ever?
@Cerberus No.
OK neither have I.
Cerby, you spoke about my Protestant prejudice (or former Protestant). But it seems to me that all the Semitic religions place a high value on exactly what you believe.
Thankfully, heh.
Maybe the Eastern religions are different. But I have some friends who are Hare Krishna followers, and they frequently argue about the exact meaning of things in the Bhagavad Gita.
07:03
Sorry for derailing your conversation. Carry on.
@DavidWallace Protestants and Wahabites (sp?) are worse than the other Semitic religions.
Oh, it hurts to get bitten by a Waha.
Hehe.
In Dutch I would probably spell Wahabieten.
Bieten = beets.
@DavidWallace Sure, some kind of belief is of some importance to nearly every religious person.
Well, at least to many people of every religion.
I believe the normal English spelling is Wahhabite.
There may be loads who don't care at all, who just care about how it feels or something.
@DavidWallace Waaahh bite!
I'm watching a documentary about a boy with no hands or feet.
Two of his favourite hobbies: skiing and smoking.
He can do it all.
07:08
Boy smoking? tsk
Hey, give him a break.
One of the coolest thing about this series of documentaries is that the presenter is not afraid to mock the handicapped people and joke around, and ask the awkward questions.
He always asks about sex.
That's interesting…
In a very serious manner.
Because it is important to most people do be able to do it.
So he asked the boy how he masturbates.
And they laughed and joked about it.
And they strolled around town on Segways.
I was kind of wondering how two people would manage sex if they both had no arms or legs. One person with and the other without should work.
07:15
@Mahnax Haha, nice.
@DavidWallace This boy can light a cigarette.
With a regular lighter.
@Cerberus Certe.
I can barely do that.
A girl in my class was playing with a lighter today.
Now he's going to play tennis. I wonder how he's going to pull that off.
She doesn't smoke, (none of us do), but it was a cool lighter.
07:16
I see.
You could adjust the height of the flame.
Don't start smoking!
Never!
Good.
Fortunately, I'm not that big on smelling like nasty and destroying my body.
07:17
How odd.
I've always hated it too.
Although alcohol intrigues me.
Drugs and cigarettes don't, not even a little.
Now the boy's arm is going to be taped onto the racket. And the presenter is having his racket taped to his hand too, so he can experience a bit of what it is like.
Intrigues how?
It's not very special.
Well, I want to try more of it.
I've only had a little in my life.
I was offered vodka recently, but I had to turn that down.
Why?
Well, I was about to leave for home, and if I had come home immediately after taking a shot of vodka, my dad would have smelled it.
07:20
I mean, I wouldn't down a glass of vodka if you're not used to alcohol, but a nip won't hurt.
Oh, haha.
Well, it's not a pleasant sensation anyway.
I probably would have tried it though.
It's like drinking a mildly burning chemical.
If I hadn't needed to leave so soon.
This was blueberry vodka, it smelled nice.
07:21
Hmm but it was not diluted?
By the way, do you have any alcoholics in your family?
I think we had one.
Long dead.
@Cerberus No.
There was a guy there who had an entire glass of 62% rum, straight.
He appeared completely unaffected.
I would cough and wince and hate it.
He just drank it like it was water.
I suppose one can get used to it.
Of course, he looked to be well over 300 lbs. and 6'6-ish.
07:25
The effect doesn't set in that quickly anyway.
I suppose it wouldn't.
But he had that at the beginning of the party and seemed sober at the end.
Ah OK.
How large was the glass?
Normally, each glass is designed to contain the same amount of alcohol as a wine glass.
Eh, maybe 350-400mL.
Oh, that is a lot.
Yeah.
07:30
A normal vodka glass should be tiny.
The people drinking vodka were doing shots from little styrofoam cups.
So that could be the equivalent of ten glasses of wine, perhaps.
Wow.
I'm assuming a wine glass to be 200 ml.
And the alcohol 12 %.
Wine is usually 14% from what I've seen.
07:33
Right, but then it's harder to calculate.
I guess.
And ten is a nice number.
I like 1010 more.
Don't tell your parents, because I'm sure that's not healthy.
1010 is 10 in binary.
@Cerberus About the guy who had a glass of 62%?
07:34
Hmm...
@Mahnax No, about liking 1010 glasses of wine.
@Cerberus OK, I won't.
It's bed time for me.
For you too, I guess.
How long have you been sleeping of late?
Still six hours?
Yeah, still six.
I've decided to start going for a short jog each morning, too.
Effective tomorrow.
Yeah, I'm off to bed.
Good day to you.
Good night!
08:00
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@Alenanno hey! How's everything?
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Took pictures?
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20:05
@Alenanno I'm still in England

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