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00:02
@Cerberus no, I do think they are interesting
not that they are well written
his claims that recursion was invented by Cicero and Aristotle is intriguing
and probably wrong
hehe
00:24
Hehe.
Another issue is that "embedding" is perhaps only a syntactic property: how is "I met the guy who robbed my father" different from "I met this guy; he robbed my father"?
Is that not a difference only of form?
Yes, but that's what he's claiming
> Just so that I am clear--- all languages embed conceptually, they only don't embed grammatically. The concepts in a non-recursive language are not simpler than in a recursive language, they are just expressed more verbosely.
00:40
Oh, ah. I haven't read most of his posts, to be honest.
But then I wonder what his definition of embedding is on an abstract level.
Maybe it becomes meaningless.
How do you mean?
In Homer, the distinction between articles, relative pronouns, and personal/demonstrative pronouns if often blurred, so that it would be very hard to decide whether a certain clause was a subordinate clause or a parallel clause.
And in Latin, relative pronouns can be used to start a new sentence.
So is the distinction even meaningful in languages that have a structure different from the modern European languages?
I mean, it is a useful distinction, but I'm not sure how well it holds up in discussions about the fundamental properties of language.
Yeah, embedding and recursion are computer scientists' obsessions
I can tell that from personal experience hehe
Hah!
Yes, I have noticed that.
I never understood why it was so important to people...
Is Chomsky a computer scientist? I thought he was?
Well, his ideas have had a profound influence on CS
00:50
@Cerberus I'll buy it for you as soon as I get rich.
I think we wouldn't have modern programming languages if it wasn't for his work on syntax trees, context-free grammars etc
I only know about Chomsky and Greibach normal forms of grammar which was one of the questions in UEE.
@Gigili I want one, too!
I can wait until you get rich :P
:D
Go buy one then?
I want one, too , three.
He woke me up and fled, what should I do about it @OtavioMacedo?
@OtavioMacedo Yeah, just reading up...
@Gigili Yay! I can't wait!
@OtavioMacedo Hmm you think so? sceptical look
00:57
@Cerberus honestly, I don't know
There was a lot of mathematical formalization involved as well
In any case, I don't understand how "context-free grammar" can exist at all. Linguists always refer to words like a "person", or a "place", which depend on context. And I think nearly everything in language is in some way dependent on context.
Done by several others
CF languages are made of CF grammars which makes more sense.
And you;d be surprised to know all of the problems related to them are decidable.
Even all regular languages are subset of CF languages.
It should be a single variable on the right side of the grammar to make it CF but there's no limitation for the left side.
Pah.
@Cerberus yeah, I know. Boring, right?
01:03
I bet those rules that describe the "context-free" grammar are chock full of references to context.
Okay, I'm done. We'll have a course about efficiency and decidability in neat feature.
What is decidability?
decidable and undecidable problems.
@OtavioMacedo don't you dare repeat it.
@Cerberus a characteristic of mathematical problems
Ohh...
01:05
roughly speaking, a problem is decidable if it can be solved in a finite time
Yes, Google is our friend.
@Gigili no, I remember that stuff from college
but that's all I remember, for that matter :P
Wth, I have to get up in one hour.
@Gigili what time is it there?
5 AM
01:12
@OtavioMacedo Ah OK, that is a clear definition.
So that presupposed that there is a definitive solution.
What? Are you saying that my definition wasn't clear enough?
I don't care anyway.
needless to say, parenthesis matching is a very famous CF grammar which is indeed context free.
I'm off to bed.
(That's four lines, not three)
@Gigili Nope, just a random remark, thinking out loud.
@Gigili What does that mean?
Good night!
$a^nb^n$
Do you use chrome?
No.
FF.
Download this, add it to your bookmarks and click on it when the room is your active tab. pastebin.com/UYgNvcVU
@Cerberus (Let's do something @Alenanno-ish)
01:27
Ehmm I'd rather know what it does first.
You?
Haha @Gigili.
It'll kill you, next question please.
Now I'm going to get back @Gigili.
@Gigili Right! Nothing else?
@Cerberus What would I do with your computer honestly? Think about it when you're alone.
Whoa, this game is just perfect.
01:30
What you would do with my computer? Paint a big Apple on it?
2
I'll convert it into a Galaxy Nexus.
Haha that looks very practical!
Hahaha and it's a big apple in more than one sense
The city, and the fruit?
01:36
Yup
Is it too posh to use the phrase "par excellence"?
No, I like it!
There should be some mild irony in it.
But that is usually not a problem, except in very serious, formal prose.
Hmm is there any equivalent phrase that doesn't convey irony?
as in "the comparative method is the historical linguistics method par excellence"
Ehm I'm not entirely sure what you want to say here.
"Most fit for the method of historical linguistics"?
"Best method for historical linguistics"?
More context would be needed.
That it is almost the only method that historical linguists use
because it has proven to be very successful
@OtavioMacedo Oh, by the way, I didn't mean it conveys irony as in "I mean the opposite of this", but rather "I am using an expression that is a tiny bit pretentious, but I am aware of it, and it is fun, so who cares?".
01:57
Hmm, I'm not that confident to use it
I'm replacing it by "most accepted and widely used"
Haha.
What are you writing this for?
Oh, are you writing an answer here?
I'm writing a question
It's Methodology Week! \o/
Ohh right!
02:22
Done!
Going to bed, now
Tot ziens!
Goedenacht!
02:37
0
Q: Are there alternatives to the comparative method in historical linguistics?

Otavio MacedoAs far as I can tell, the comparative method is the most accepted and widely used method in historical linguistics. Often used in conjunction with the internal reconstruction method, it has proved to be very successful ever since the 19th century. There are, of course, alternatives, such as the m...

 
6 hours later…
08:08
0
Q: Is there a standard corpus against which to benchmark mechanical parsers?

Ron MaimonI was wondering if there is a published standard corpus of English sentences which are confounding for mechanical parsers. I am looking over sentences given here, and I have the following (very short) list: "Jameson was generous; the hawk, greedy" (verb ellipsis) "Kindly speak to Sally" vs. "Sp...

 
6 hours later…
14:06
@Gigili What is something Alenanno-ish? :D
Eh ello.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
3 hours later…
17:03
0
Q: Gender-based name endings: Are they common?

user839For instance, the way that if an English name ends in A, it's likely female.

17:59
@StackExchange Yeah, good one. I'm wondering if it's OT.
@Gigili I think it's on topic, but poorly written at the moment :(
Indeed.
A: I want to help you.
B: So help us don't help us.
(Totally irrelevant)
@Gigili what?
@OtavioMacedo What what?
What are these A and B options?
18:11
I read @Alenanno's comments telling the OP "help us to help you" which reminded me of that conversation from a movie.
I hope you enjoy it.
18:36
@Gigili You have no idea?
17 hours ago, by Gigili
@Cerberus (Let's do something @Alenanno-ish)
@Alenanno Never mind, I just pinged him! Do you like my new avatar?
@Gigili him? It's me Alenanno! :P lol
Anyway, it's your old one no? I liked the eyes one.
:P
But this one is not bad.
@Alenanno XD, I meant Cerb.
Not bad? Peh.
I like the eyes one, too
Oh that one? It wasn't a good one really, reminded me of a proverb each time I looked at it.
> c'est ne une pipe
18:44
Oh, I regret having said that :P
:D
Ahahah
@Alenanno, we're having lots of questions lately :D
and the number of visits is slowly increasing!
@OtavioMacedo OUr visits are at 270! :D They were at 271 the other day, but it's ok... They're always increasing!
I feel something is wrong with my last sentence, is it so?
@Gigili Which sentence?
18:46
3 mins ago, by Gigili
Oh that one? It wasn't a good one really, reminded me of a proverb each time I looked at it.
It seems ok for me
No, it's correct. Informal, maybe, but not wrong. :)
Ha.
@Gigili, is Farsi a pro-drop language?
What's pro-drop?
Yes, WP is our friend.
18:48
A language where you can leave the personal pronoun out
as in Italian "(Io) sono un artista"
@OtavioMacedo Eheh +1 :D
I think it is.
> (I) is an artist
If in Farsi you say "I eat an apple", is the subject obligatory or optional?
Google Translate ^
0
Q: Is the word, "problem," new to non-English languages?

Rob PerkinsI've been listening to radio broadcasts lately where a person will be speaking German or Pashtun or Russian or whatever and a translator will be supplying an English rendition, in a format which makes it possible to hear both the original and the translation. I noticed that in almost every case...

1
Q: What is a "witness world"? Is this notion related to "witness sets"?

user177In reading a paper by Anand & Hacquard, I've come across the term "witness world," where a witness world can verify a proposition, p. I haven't been able to google an easily understandable definition of a "witness world," (although this is probably due to poor detective work on my part). This...

18:53
@Alenanno Optional, if someone asks you what are you eating, you could say eat an apple or an apple in reply.
If it's what pro-drop means.
A pro-drop language (from "pronoun-dropping") is a language in which certain classes of pronouns may be omitted when they are in some sense pragmatically inferable (the precise conditions vary from language to language, and can be quite intricate). The phenomenon of "pronoun-dropping" is also commonly referred to in linguistics as zero or null anaphora. In everyday speech there are often instances when who or what is being referred to can be inferred from context. Proponents of the term "pro-drop" take the view that pronouns which in other languages would have those referents can be om...
According to WP, it is
> It has been observed that pro-drop languages are those with either rich inflection for person and number (Persian, Portuguese, etc.)
Ok, after singing a song in Russian, I'll go offline. ahah :D See you guys later!
@OtavioMacedo That's what I said.
@Alenanno I saw that.
Have fun!
Thanks. You too! :D
19:01
Yes, but it doesn't need to be only when answering a question
In Portuguese, you can spontaneously say "Comi uma maçã hoje"
"(I) ate an apple today"
It was an example. I was not sure if I am correct.
20:03
Hey, @Gigili, are you a computer scientist?
A graduate one, why?
Because you know all that decidability stuff
Are you exaggerating? =\
Are you a member of CS.SE private beta @OtavioMacedo?
Nope
you?
Uhum
Pretty much better than theoretical CS, I disliked that one.
20:12
What kinds of questions are on topic there?
Almost everything about CS, such as automata, compiler, DB, programming languages, algorithm, blabla.
And what's the difference from theoretical CS?
That one is for higher level questions ..
Not practical problems grad students might have, I asked two questions and both were OT.

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