lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Stack Exchange

00:00

1

Q: Why the infinitive in Portuguese "Cartago tem que ser destruída"?

Cartago tem que ser destruída. "Carthage must be destroyed." I'm wondering about the infinitive (ser): where does it come from? In what situations is the infinitive used after que: only with ter + que, or also with other verbs? It looks strange to me, because I don't know of any similar con...

Otavio Macedo

I remembered of an idiomatic construction: "Isso vai dar o que falar"

Something like: "this is going to cause too much gossip"

But I'm not sure it's what we're looking for

Because "o" is the definite article

so it makes everything that comes after "dar" (to give) become a noun phrase

And I also found a prescriptivist explanation:

"Ele tem que estudar" doesn't mean "He must study"

Instead, it means "He has things to study"

Cerberus

Ahhh!

Otavio Macedo

So, "ter" is not an auxiliary

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo This could be highly relevant.

Otavio Macedo

It just means "to have"

But, in everyday speech, we don't make that distinction

Cerberus

00:09

@OtavioMacedo OK but I never thought of it as an auxiliary?

@OtavioMacedo This could mean that it is a highly elliptical construction: "ele tem [things] que [are] estudar".

That sort of makes sense.

Otavio Macedo

You mean, "he has things to be studied"?

Cerberus

Because the bare infinitive is used elsewhere to express a goal too.

@OtavioMacedo Yes, sort of.

Otavio Macedo

But what about the Carthage example?

Cerberus

It also makes much sense in your translation of the Latin gerundive.

Which is also related to the infinitive.

"The city to destroy is Carthage"—something like that.

The only thing is that I would expect a preposition.

In Portuguese.

Like "a" or "de", or whatever you people use, hehe.

Otavio Macedo

Hmm, it would be "A cidade a ser destruída é Cartago"

Cerberus

00:23

@OtavioMacedo What is "something"?

@OtavioMacedo That makes sense.

Otavio Macedo

"something" is "algo"

Cerberus

Ah, I remember now.

Stack Exchange

06:47

0

Q: How common is it for languages to use second person pronouns as indefinite pronouns in certain contexts?

How common is it for languages to use second person pronouns as indefinite pronouns in certain contexts? Witness, for example, the following sentence, which, depending on context, could be addressed to a particular listener or to any listener or reader at all, including listeners and readers un...

syntax morphology

Alenanno

12:37

@OtavioMacedo Do you know Lucio Dalla? The italian singer?

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno Yes

Alenanno

He's... gone.

Otavio Macedo

Oh, that's sad

Alenanno

He wasn't one of the singers I used to listen to, but this saddens me a bit.

This is the article. (This is a nice newspaper if you need to practice italian) :)

ilfattoquotidiano.it/2012/03/01/morto-lucio-dalla/194810

No boxing? Uhm...

Otavio Macedo

btw, can you recommend an Italian radio for practicing Italian?

or TV...

I tried RAI, but it only works on Windows :(

Alenanno

12:40

Uhm

Radio? I'll ask my dad later... He listens to a lot of radio in the car, so he's more expert than me. :D

You want News or funny (but intelligent) programs too?

Otavio Macedo

Anything that people don't speak too fast heheh

Alenanno

Ahah

C'mon!!! Don't be afraid! lol

Otavio Macedo

It's interesting how I can understand most words

and yet don't make sense of it

Alenanno

Grab a grammar and you'll learn it in months (or weeks) :D

hey @Cerberus Do you know Lucio Dalla?

Cerberus

Hi!

@Alenanno No, never heard of him.

Alenanno

12:47

@Cerberus He was an italian singer.

ilfattoquotidiano.it/2012/03/01/morto-lucio-dalla/194810

I was expecting you to know him! :)

Otavio Macedo

He was very popular here in the 90s

Cerberus

I don't know much. He may be my genre; I'll listen to him later.

Otavio Macedo

His songs were used as soundtracks in some soap operas

hippietrail

0

Q: How are proper nouns distinguished from other nouns in linguistics (not in orthography)?

When you ask most people the difference between common nouns and proper nouns they mostly can only tell you that proper nouns start with a capital letter. But this has problems: Capital letters and writing systems as a whole are recent inventions added on to language, which is ancient and natu...

terminology nouns definitions proper-nouns

hi there by the way

Alenanno

Hey!

Otavio Macedo

12:53

Hi, @hippietrail!

Hmm, intuitively, I'd say it has to do with the distinction between particulars and universals

hippietrail

i'm totally failing to get even the basics of georgian verbs by the way so if anybody has any pointers...

yes i think we all have an intuition but when you try to capture it you often miss something so i'm looking for a solid/textbook style def (-:

i also didn't know how much to make of the days of the week / months of the year capitalization varying between languages - probably better as a new question based on the answer to this question

but useful for things like should "god" and "earth" be capitalized/are they proper nouns? looking for something good to point to when people mix up the concepts

Otavio Macedo

"god" is tricky

religious people will prefer "God"

and atheists, for example, would prefer "god"

But that's an interesting question!

Lots of grey areas

Alenanno

The fact is that proper nouns and common nouns are not that always and forever. Some nouns are not proper in other languages, while they can be proper or not in others.

If you get a definition, it should take that into account. (I'm working on it.)

hippietrail

that's why i'm looking for a linguistics def rather than any other kind of def (-:

i'd prefer a pointers to existing/accepted/published defs than to answerers taking a stab at it by the way

if it's per language is it down to tradition more than linguistics for instance? is it even widely considered "real" in languages without orthographic case?

Cerberus

Hi!

@hippietrail I believe it is a very real thing in German.

Alenanno

13:01

Are you referring to capitalisation? That is one of the things used to distinguish, but I'd say it's a consequence rather than a "cause".

Cerberus

@Alenanno Sounds good!

hippietrail

i'm sure there's morphonyntactic differences in how they are used. for instance with the articles in english since proper nouns are already definite in general

Cerberus

Yes, but articles can be used in German.

hippietrail

@Alenanno: i specifically talk about capitalization if you read the question

Alenanno

@Cerberus :)

Cerberus

13:02

"Ist die Inge da?"

hippietrail

@Cerberus exactly!

Alenanno

@hippietrail I meant that chat post (I read the question.)

hippietrail

in english in certain cases too "The Simpsons"

Cerberus

So I think it is a very good question.

@hippietrail Yes, in plural.

hippietrail

"Can I go to the bank on a Saturday?"

Alenanno

13:03

@hippietrail That is not a grey area, in my opinion.

Cerberus

But actually it can also be used in singular: The Empire State.

hippietrail

@Alenanno sorry there are so many chat posts now \-:

Cerberus

The Ukraine.

Blabla filler post to annoy the Hippietrail.

Alenanno

@hippietrail If you hover your cursor on my post, you'll see which one it refers to. :)

hippietrail

yes so there ought to be other morphosyntactic hints of which article use is but one

my full bladder is more annoying than anything in this chat d-:

Alenanno

13:05

Ahah

go to the toilet!

Cerberus

@hippietrail I am inclined to think it is just an orthographical thing used to distinguish a "special" instance of something from the general meaning of the word.

As in, let's post a question on linguistics on Linguistics.

hippietrail

@Cerberus so German does not have proper nouns? neither does chinese? japanese? arabic? georgian? hebrew?

Cerberus

@hippietrail No, I meant the opposite: even though all nouns are capitalised, they still distinguish proper nouns.

But not orthographically.

hippietrail

if people here really think that then i should post an even more basic question!

Cerberus

I'm not sure.

hippietrail

13:07

ah ok that's less radical (-:

Cerberus

Hehe.

Stack Exchange

0

Q: How are proper nouns distinguished from other nouns in linguistics (not in orthography)?

When you ask most people the difference between common nouns and proper nouns they mostly can only tell you that proper nouns start with a capital letter. But this has problems: Capital letters and writing systems as a whole are recent inventions added on to language, which is ancient and natu...

terminology nouns definitions proper-nouns

hippietrail

funny my question has recieved two votes but only 1 view (-:

Alenanno

@hippietrail I have to go now, but I found something, later I'll try to produce an answer. :P Later everyone!

Otavio Macedo

Bye!

hippietrail

13:12

thanks have a fine absence (-:

Cerberus

Bye!

> Because the orthographic classification has room for various implicit cognitive frames, it is somewhat arbitrary, which is to say, individuals can make different choices without either one being "wrong", and they cannot easily describe to each other their differing frames, because of the implicitness.

> Today the meaning of proper noun capitalization is uniqueness within an implicit context, that is, it provides a name to an instance of a general type when the instance is unique within an implicit context.

I'm afraid it is as vague as this (Wiki).

hippietrail

yep talks way too much about orthography

Cerberus

But I think that's mostly what it is about.

I don't think any hard syntactic criteria can be given.

The semantic criteria are vague.

hippietrail

interesting that there is no equivalent article to Wikipedia's Proper noun article in Chinese, Japanese, Hebrew, or Georgian! But there is one in Arabic...

so that would be akin to saying proper noun is not a category within the realm of linguistics. ie that it's not about language but about orthography and/or semantics

somebody seems to think that korean has proper nouns : 고유명사 (goyu myeongsa)

Cerberus

@hippietrail Hmm I wouldn't be inclined to say that; I'd rather say that it is a vague semantic concept.

hippietrail

13:24

there seem to be a few papers on proper nouns in chinese and korean... no luck pasting a URL here though )-:

is it possible for a concept to be both a vague semantic one yet lie within the science of linguistics?

Cerberus

@hippietrail I'd say yes; but it will be hard to reach definitive conclusions about their behaviour.

hippietrail

hmm seems quite counterintuitive to me

Cerberus

I know what you mean.

Perhaps they shouldn't be a separate kind of noun in syntax.

There one could rather split nouns between those that have articles in the singular and those that don't.

But in semantics, which is always inherently vague (cf. vague semantic roles like "agent, patient, recipient"), I think there could be a place for proper nouns.

Besides, the discreteness one usually sees in syntactic labels is also often faulty and artificial.

hippietrail

i'm finding some clues about arabic, hebrew, and chinese by googling, but only traces really nothing solid

in NLP there is an established concept of "named entity recognition" which seems closely related and is used for all languages

Otavio Macedo

Bertrand Russell and J. Stuart Mill tried to come up with philosophical theories about names

Cerberus

13:35

And Frege...

hippietrail

i'll let it fester for a while and then see if i need to ask the more basic question...

Cerberus

Good idea.

Stack Exchange

14:50

1

Q: How do I make comments on questions & answers?

Just joined the site. This is probably a foolish question, but I see lots of comments on people's questions and answers, but no button with which I can add a comment of my own. I see a way to answer, but not a way to comment. What am I missing that other people are not? (I've hunted unsuccessf...

support questions asking-questions comments

Alenanno

16:10

Hello @Cerberus and @Gigili!

Gigili

Hello Alenanno

Alenanno

How are you?

Gigili

I am, um, fine. You?

Alenanno

I'm fine too... Why um?

Gigili

What else?

"Hum" or "hmmm"?

Alenanno

16:13

I mean, you're not totally fine?

Gigili

I am, I was checking to not lie to you, you know. I am pretty sure it matters to you, yes it does.

Alenanno

Yes, it does. :P

Gigili

Told you so.

Do you learn German or you gave up?

Alenanno

I'm in the process of learning it. :D

:)

Or better, improving it.

Cerberus

Hi!

I have to go for now, later!

Alenanno

16:17

@Cerberus Later!

Gigili

@Cerberus Huh? Ö

Ciao.

Alenanno

@Gigili Are you still improving your German?

Gigili

Yes, I'm on a level that I need to practice everyday otherwise I will forget what I've learned.

Alenanno

Good! What do you do to practice?

Gigili

I listen to German audios and I write the transcription, I watch German movies.

Actually I did watch one German movie only. They're not that interesting.

Alenanno

16:20

Cool. :D

Ahahah

I used to watch a TV series

I liked it

I watched it in the italian TV, but I'd like to see it in German

it's called Ein Fall für Zwei

Gigili

Was it comic?

Or is, even

Alenanno

Well, some funny sketch now and then

but it was serious

about police and detectives

Ein Fall für zwei

Ein Fall für zwei ("A case for two") is a German television series, which premiered on September 11, 1981 on ZDF. The series, located in Frankfurt am Main, features two main characters who solve crimes: a defense attorney and a private investigator. Josef Matula (played by Claus Theo Gärtner), a former German police officer, has gone into private business. His method of investigation is very effective and direct, and he sometimes even resorts to dirty tricks. Claus Theo Gärtner has portrayed the role since the start of the series. In contrast, the attorney character has changed several ...

Gigili

Do you understand the subject easily?

I think I need subtitles.

Alenanno

I never watched it in German, just Italian... I'd like to watch it in German!

Gigili

Oh? well then .. You surely understand it in Italian.

Alenanno

16:27

:D Yes. :P

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno: "è stato trovato cadavere"

is this passive voice?

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo I think so...

Yeah.

Otavio Macedo

So, in general, the passive voice is formed by essere + stato + main verb(p.p.)?

and "essere" is conjugated for person in the present indicative

is that right?

Alenanno

It depends... :D

Let me think...

"...che venga trovato cadavere" is not indicative, but perfectly legit. :) although, you change the overall meaning, of course.

Hello @tombull89!

Otavio Macedo

what does that sentence mean?

Welcome, @tombull89!

Alenanno

16:41

That's hard to translate... It's a "congiuntivo"

:D

Otavio Macedo

Can you write a whole sentence with it?

Alenanno

Uhm.

Otavio Macedo

There is a congiuntivo in Portuguese, as well

But we call it subjuntivo

Alenanno

"Dobbiamo trovarlo noi prima che venga trovato cadavere."

:D

Otavio Macedo

Ah, ok, "we must find it ourselves before it is found dead"

is that right?

the "venga" emphasizes the "coming to be"

Would this make sense? "Dobbiamo trovarlo noi prima che sia trovato cadavere"

Alenanno

17:03

Yes!

Sorry wasn't here.

I think it works, but there are some issues about venire/essere in the passive voice.

Otavio Macedo

That must be one of those fine nuances that confuse non-native speakers

Alenanno

Also natives. :D

I guess.

ahahah

Otavio Macedo

Heheh

btw, I've found a nice Italian radio: CRC

Alenanno

CRC?

Otavio Macedo

radiocrc.com/blog

Alenanno

17:16

You can't listen to Radio Rai, right?

Otavio Macedo

Hmm, let me check

I remember I couldn't watch the TV

No, not the radio, either

It works on Silverlight :P

Alenanno

What do you use, Linux?

Otavio Macedo

Yes

Alenanno

Aren't there workarounds?

mono-project.com/Moonlight

:P

Otavio Macedo

Oh, thanks!

Let me try it

Moonlight installation was ok

But it needs a specific plugin

Alenanno

17:31

Which one?

Otavio Macedo

Actually, it's a codec

It doesn't tell which one

just tries to install and then gives a "permission denied" error

Alenanno

Keep trying!

Otavio Macedo

Yes, I will :-)

Do you use the expression menomale?

Alenanno

:P

Yeah, why? :D

Cerberus

Firefox says I need the Realplayer plugin.

Which I really don't want to install, because RP has been known to be terrible spyware.

Otavio Macedo

17:37

@Alenanno we also use it

Gigili

Do you learn Japanese too @Alenanno?

Otavio Macedo

Not everyone, of course

Alenanno

@Gigili I try... :D Why?

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus to use moonlight?

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo "menomale"?

Otavio Macedo

17:38

Yes, we borrowed from you guys

Italian immigrants brought a lot of such expressions

porca miseria

Alenanno

Ahah STEALERS!

XD

Otavio Macedo

Some dirty words, as well

Gigili

@Alenanno I want to start learning Japanese, but I don't want to stop learning German. Whoa, what a complicated sentence.

Alenanno

@Gigili You can learn both at the same time! :P

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili it has a nice symmetry!

Cerberus

17:41

@OtavioMacedo I don't know, it says nothing about Moonlight to me! Just RP.

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus Are you on Linux or Windows?

Cerberus

@Gigili If you learn Italian too, you'll have all the Axis powers!

@OtavioMacedo Win.

Oh, are you on Linux?

Alenanno

@Cerberus lol

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus yes

Cerberus

Hmm.

Alenanno

17:43

brb

Cerberus

We only have candles and electric light here.

Gigili

We only have candles here.

Otavio Macedo

We only have sunlight here!

34°C now

Gigili

Wow, is it summer?

Otavio Macedo

Yes, you know, southern hemisphere

Cerberus

17:45

And almost tropical, right?

Or just tropical?

Here the sun and the moon rarely make it above the dikes to shin down upon the botton of the sea, where we live.

Otavio Macedo

São Paulo is crossed by the tropic of capricorn

@Cerberus hehe, always fighting the ocean

Cerberus

Yup.

@OtavioMacedo Ahh yes. So is there a noticeable different in temperature between the 1st of January and the first of July?

Or is it just wetter/drier?

Otavio Macedo

Our winter is considerably colder and drier than summer

Not so cold as European winters, of course

Cerberus

Oh!

Hmm I thought there was little to no difference between the tropics.

But that doesn't make sense.

Otavio Macedo

What?

Cerberus

17:52

What I thought doesn't make sense when I think about it deeper.

Only on the equator is there no difference; but then you will have two warm periods, in our spring and autumn?

Otavio Macedo

Yes, although spring is a bit warmer than autumn

No, wait, it's the other way around

september-december is a bit colder than march-june

Cerberus

For people in, say, Manaus?

Otavio Macedo

No, for us

For Manaus, it's hot all year round

Cerberus

Hehe.

But it should be a bit hotter in March than in July for them?

Otavio Macedo

Technically, yes, because they're also on the southern hemisphere

But it's so close to the equator, that it makes no difference

@Alenanno, I solved the problem of "permission denied"!

But RAI doesn't stream if you're not in Italian territory :P

Alenanno

18:03

That sucks. :O

Otavio Macedo

Oh, but the radio works :D

the restriction applies only to TV

Alenanno

ah ok

Look for the program

"ruggito del coniglio"

they are funny/nice

Otavio Macedo

cerca

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Yeah OK.

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno I'm listening to it :)

It's gonna be fun!

Alenanno

18:10

Ahah

You know what the name means?

Otavio Macedo

No...

Alenanno

"Rabbit's roar" :D

lol

Otavio Macedo

Hahaha

Cerberus

Coniglio = konijn?

Funny!

Congates?

Alenanno

I don't know. Is that dutch?

Cerberus

18:13

Yup.

Alenanno

What is its etymology?

Cerberus

Let me look it up...

Otavio Macedo

"The Germanic words for rabbit -- coney, konijn, Kaninchen, kanin, etc. -- come from Latin because the European rabbit isn't native to Northern Europe."

quora.com/…

Alenanno

Oh...

Cerberus

Wow, this interesting.

It comes from Latin cuniculus, through French conin.

But Conin was replaced with lapin, because cit resembled con too much, "cunt".

Alenanno

18:17

lol

Cerberus

Further, the Latin word comes from a non-IE Iberian word, cf. Basque untxi "rabbit".

Otavio Macedo

Niggard fell out of use in English for the same reason

Cerberus

Rabbits used to live only on the Iberian peninsula.

@OtavioMacedo Ohh haha. But I still use it! Mainly in niggardly.

Alenanno

Aren't they in Uk too?

Cerberus

I also heard that "que l'on" in French is also partly to avoid "con".

@Alenanno It says they originally lived only in Iberia, but they spread out later.

I can't check that.

But I have to go.

Later guys!

Alenanno

18:19

Ok, see ya!

Cerberus

Bye!

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno They reproduce like... well, rabbits

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo Ahah pun intended, I suppose.

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno I'm glad you got it :-)

Gigili

19:40

@Alenanno: Are you still there?

Alenanno

@Gigili Yep!

Gigili

Do you have enough time to join us in GLU?

Alenanno

Chat?

Gigili

Jup.

Alenanno

I'm coming!

Stack Exchange

20:25

0

Q: Deceangli and Angles: are these two tribe names etymologically related?

In pre-Roman times, there was a Celtic tribe in Britain, called Deceangli. To a layperson, this name bears an interesting resemblance to Angles, the name of another (Germanic) tribe that lived in the continent. Coincidentally, the Angles later invaded Britain along with the Saxons, and the name A...

etymology indo-european

Cerberus

20:48

Hai.

Otavio Macedo

Oh, look who's back

Cerberus

Yup.

Had dinner with a friend.

God I love living in the city and having friends who live nearby.

By the way, does any suburb of SP reach the coast?

Otavio Macedo

No, because there's a chain of mountains between us and the sea

Cerberus

Hmm I see.

Otavio Macedo

Serra do Mar

Serra do Mar () is a 1,500 km long system of mountain ranges and escarpments in Southeastern Brazil, which runs in parallel to the Atlantic Ocean coast from the state of Espírito Santo to southern Santa Catarina, although some include Serra Geral in the Serra do Mar, in which case this range extends to northeastern Rio Grande do Sul. The main escarpment forms the boundary between the sea-level littoral and the inland plateau (planalto), which has a mean altitude of . The mountain ranges are discontinuous in several places and receive individual names such as Serra de Bocaina, Serra ...

Cerberus

20:58

So that Santos and São Vicente are not at all connected to SP.

Otavio Macedo

There are two roads connecting the coast to the city

Cerberus

Yeah OK, but no urban area.

So is that a ruined church?

Transcript for