lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Cerberus

12:41

Hi!

Otavio Macedo

Hi, @Cerberus!

Cerberus

You're up early! I think.

Hmm what is it, 7.43?

Otavio Macedo

It's 9:43 here

Cerberus

Ohh!

Otavio Macedo

We're at GMT-3 now

Cerberus

12:43

I suppose you're quite eastern.

Almost oriental, one might say.

Otavio Macedo

Yes, we're close to the coastline

But this is the official Brazilian time as well

Cerberus

Really!

In the entire country?

Otavio Macedo

and out capital is in the very center of the country

No, we have 4 time zones

Cerberus

Ahh OK.

So it's not 9.43 in Brasilia now?

Otavio Macedo

Yes

Cerberus

12:46

Yes, it is 9.43?

Then you have one big zone in the centre-east?

Otavio Macedo

Oh, sorry, I didn't read carefully

Yes, most of the country is on the Brasilia's time zone

The easternmost of them covers just some islands

Fernando de Noronha is the most famous among them

Cerberus

Ah, so I see you have two major time zones.

Otavio Macedo

Yes, but in the summer, everything gets messed up

Because of daylight saving time

Only the southernmost part adopts the DST

Including São Paulo

Near the equator line, there is almost no variation in day length throughout the year

Cerberus

13:04

Oh, haha.

I understand.

Funny problem.

Stack Exchange

0

Q: Does the Pirahã syntax contradict the principles of Universal Grammar?

The Wikipedia article on Universal Grammar cites the research by Everett (2005) about the Pirahã language: Finally, in the domain of field research, the Pirahã language is claimed to be a counterexample to the basic tenets of Universal Grammar. This research has been primarily lead by Daniel ...

Stack Exchange

14:57

0

Q: What are the associations emerging from the name "Waitu" or the suffix "tu" in different languages?

I'm considering to name my Android application "Waitu", and I want to make sure that it's a good name in all widespread languages. What does this name imply in different languages? I'm especially interested in Japanese, Chinese, Spanish and Hindi.

phonology morphology cross-linguistic etymology indo-european

Stack Exchange

15:52

1

Q: Literature on "broken vowels"

I am looking for any recent studies dealing substantially with "broken vowels," or vocoid elements which have a noticeably nonstable formant trajectory, yet for which there are no good phonological arguments that they are diphthongs. "Broken vowels" might alternately be referred to as vowels with...

phonology phonetics vowels

Otavio Macedo

17:17

Je ferai un domaine
Où l'amour sera roi
Où l'amour sera loi
Où tu seras reine

I had never realized how beautiful these lyrics are!

Cerberus

Yes! One of the best songs ever.

I usually try to look up and recognize the lyrics of a song I really like if not all of it is understandable.

The part where I am "l'ombre de ton chien" is even quite funny.

Otavio Macedo

Yes, at first, I thought it was the French word for chin

heheh

Cerberus

Haha.

Which recording is your favourite?

Otavio Macedo

Édith Piaf

But I like this one, too:

Cerberus

Ohh. You prefer her to Brel?

►

This one is my favourite.

Otavio Macedo

17:31

►

Yes, I usually prefer female voices

Cerberus

Oh, that one's nice too. A bit lighter, faster than Brel's.

Surprisingly the Marlene Dietrich's German translation is also quite good. At least I think so: you might hate it.

Otavio Macedo

googles Dietrich's version

Cerberus

youtube.com/…

Perhaps her voice too low for you.

Otavio Macedo

No, I like her voice

It's just that German doesn't seem to fit with this song

But perhaps I'm too used to the original French version

Cerberus

I know, it's really weird.

Perhaps I only like it because I stumbled upon it not knowing it was NMQP: halfway through the song, I seemed to recognize it; but then I was already entrapped.

Stack Exchange

17:40

0

Q: List of Universal Cognates

Are there any references online of a list of universal cognates by sound-meaning? Ideally, what I'd like to see is word by language and definition. Here's a fine example: http://www.theholidayspot.com/fathersday/many_languages.htm What's really intriguing about this list is that it covers so m...

etymology cognates

Otavio Macedo

Dalida recorded an Italian version: Non andare via

►

Cerberus

Oh!

I had no idea! I like Dali.

Otavio Macedo

It's interesting how each language conveys a different "feeling"

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo Pretty good.

She sings "l'ombra de tuo cuore".

Not quite the same as "l'ombré de ton chien", hehe.

@OtavioMacedo Yeah absolutely, and each singer too.

Otavio Macedo

Oh, there's also a Portuguese version:

►

Cerberus

17:53

This is Brel himself singing it in Dutch:

►

But actually I don't like it. His accent is just too bad.

His French accent, I mean.

Otavio Macedo

Yes, even I can hear the French accent

Cerberus

Yeah? On top of the Flemish accent?

It's funny how I have really no idea how hard or easy it is to hear the difference for foreigners.

@OtavioMacedo I like the Portuguese version.

Otavio Macedo

Hum... I'm not sure

Cerberus

In which things do you hear it?

Otavio Macedo

I wouldn't recognize the Flemish accent

the voiced uvular r

I know some Dutch dialects have it

But his sounds very French to me hehe

does he sing "du vergeet [...]"?

Cerberus

18:02

"Toe, vergeet me niet"

= Please, forget me not.

I think.

Lemme listen to it again.

Otavio Macedo

to me it sounds /du verʁeit/

Cerberus

Oh, yes.

That is common to Flemish and French accents.

And I actually think d- and t- are closer in Flemish than in regular Dutch.

His v is very French, not Flemish, I think.

He's over-emphasising it in a weird way.

Otavio Macedo

and his "ch" sounds /x/

I seem to hear a word /laxt/

Cerberus

Hmm that would be lacht, but I don't know where he says that.

Otavio Macedo

is it light?

Cerberus

18:08

The way he prolongs ie in "niet" is also very wrong in "laat me niieet alleen": he should have geminated the t instead.

@OtavioMacedo No, it is "laughs" as in "he laughs".

Like German.

Gigili

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili I know people who try to kill flies that sit on the screen using the mouse cursor

Cerberus

@Gigili shakes heads Gigi, what are you doing there?

@OtavioMacedo Did you notice some flies are actually a bit startled if you mouse the cursor around them?

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus Really? I'm gonna try the next time

Cerberus

18:24

@OtavioMacedo It only works sometimes, and they're not that impressed even then; but I have noticed some effect at some point.

Perhaps it was with very small flies.

Gigili

@Cerberus Funny funny. Lol?

Cerberus

Heh.

Gigili

What do you think about this @Cerb:

motorola.com/Consumers/XZ-EN/Consumer-Products-and-Services/…

Cerberus

18:45

@Gigili Looks good, but I'm not really up to date on modern phones. And, more importantly, it all depends on what you need, and what is important to you.

Gigili

Appearance, large screen is the most important factor.

Android, also.

Cerberus

OK. How about battery duration, display resolution, price?

Though battery duration might not vary a great deal between modern phones (usually very bad if you watch lots of videos, listen to music, use the internet, or GPS).

Gigili

No, I do not. Battery duration has never been an issue for me.

Cerberus

Are you using a smartphone now?

Gigili

Display resolution is important as well. of course.

Cerberus

18:50

OK.

gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_note-4135.php

You might consider this one.

It is more expensive, but it has a larger display and better resolution.

Samsung Galaxy Note.

Gigili

I forgot about Samsung, thank you.

Cerberus

Samsung is the most popular phone maker now, I think.

They sell about as many phones as Apple.

HTC was on top a few years ago, and they're trying to catch up again.

Reminder: I recommend the Phone Finder at GSMArena.com.

Gigili

HTC sucks, my father has one. There's not a day that the phone doesn't have an issue.

But I liked this one: htc.com/mideast/smartphones/htc-sensation-xl

Cerberus

Don't judge the entire brand by one device.

I really couldn't say.

Gigili

But I like Apple products the most, I don't know why but they look perfect and stylish more than other ones.

Cerberus

19:00

Haha I know that one.

@Gigili Weakling.

Appearances deceive.

Alenanno

20:16

Hello @Cerberus @OtavioMacedo

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno Ciao!

Alenanno

What's up?

Otavio Macedo

I'm learning about cathedrals :-)

Alenanno

Why's that?

Otavio Macedo

to understand what I'll see when I get into Notre Dame, for example

Cerberus

20:20

Hi!

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo Oh... :D

Cerberus

*Dame, but that was probably a typo, hehe.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Yo.

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus Thank you!

Alenanno

It seems it's hyphened too.

Notre-Dame

Cerberus

20:21

Very good that you're reading up on the subject before you go (I'm usually too lazy, I only start reading when I'm already on the way or something).

Alenanno

Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris

Notre-Dame de Paris, ou Notre-Dame, est la cathédrale de l’archidiocèse catholique de Paris. Elle est située à l’extrémité est de l’île de la Cité, dans le quatrième arrondissement de Paris. Sa façade occidentale domine le parvis Notre-Dame - place Jean-Paul-II. La construction s’étant étendue sur de nombreuses décennies (deux siècles), le style n’est donc pas d’une uniformité totale : elle possède ainsi des caractères du gothique primitif (voûtes sexpartites de la nef) et du gothique rayonnant. Les deux rosaces qui ornent chacun des bras du transept sont parmi les plus grandes d’E...

Cerberus

Oh, I see!

Still, the hyphen seems less necessary in English.

Alenanno

Sometimes I tried watching a french channel about news

And they were talking like "blabla-è-economique-blabla-nton"

:D

Otavio Macedo

Hahaha

Alenanno

I do the impression better by voice, though. :P

Cerberus

20:24

Haha.

You should do an impression and post it on FB!

Alenanno

LoL :D

Speaking french is fun. And also gives you a sense of "ah I did it!"

Cerberus

Ehh how does that work?

Alenanno

I mean, if you get to say a sentence or a short speech, it's highly rewarding... As with any language you have not enough fluency, though... :P

Do you guys know the videogame Worms?

Otavio Macedo

I have heard of it

Cerberus

@Alenanno Ah OK, yes, and also because it is a beautiful language.

@Alenanno Yeah, but I've never played it. Isn't it about bombarding worms?

Alenanno

20:40

@Cerberus I'm trying to find a video

to show you

the 3D edition

maybe this one

►

Cerberus

@Alenanno Haha, looks pretty funny. So can you still destroy parts of the landscape, as in the 2D version?

Alenanno

@Cerberus Yes yes.

:D

I'mma go to eat now. Later! :)

:P

Cerberus

Bye!

Eat at 10 pm?

That's nice and late.

You're a very typical Italian, hehe.

Alenanno

21:10

Ahah

Usually the time is 20:00/21:00

but sometimes it happens we eat later

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno every time you talk about eating, I picture a large family around a big table eating spaghetti, drinking wine and speaking loudly

Sorry for the stereotype

Heheh

Alenanno

Well... It's not that far from the reality ahahah

It depends on the family though.

I ate spaghetti today.

:D

Otavio Macedo

Aha

I'm very grateful to the Italians, who spread spaghetti and pizza around the world

Oh, and lasagna

I love those things

Alenanno

:D ahah nice

Otavio Macedo

21:27

I would also say Ferrari, but I don't the have money to buy one ;-)

Alenanno

Me neither!

Cerberus

21:40

@OtavioMacedo Yay!

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus and I'm grateful to the Dutch, who invented the stroopwafel

and the trappist beers, of course

Cerberus

*stroopwafel

Otavio Macedo

Ops

Cerberus

Oh, did we invent trappist beers? I actually don't even know what it means, although I do drink them.

Otavio Macedo

Hmm, I don't know if you invented them

@Cerberus and I'm a spelling butcher heheh

But I like La Trappe very much

Cerberus

21:47

> Following this rule, most Trappist monasteries produce goods which are sold to provide income for the monastery. The goods produced range from cheese, bread and other foodstuffs to clothing and coffins. As the order does not require abstention from alcohol, some monasteries produce and sell alcoholic beverages. Monasteries in Belgium and the Netherlands, such as Orval Abbey and Westvleteren Abbey, brew beer both for the monks and for sale to the general public.

> Trappist beers contain residual sugars and living yeast, and, as bottle-conditioned beers do,[8] will improve with age.

@OtavioMacedo You don't want to see my Portuguese spelling!

Otavio Macedo

Theoretically, you can only buy a Westvleteren beer from the monastery itself

But there is a whole black market out there

Cerberus

A black market? Haha.

Is Westvleteren protected by EU regulation?

Otavio Macedo

I don't know if it's an official thing

but the monks themselves wouldn't approve of it

Cerberus

We have the silliest laws here.

Otavio Macedo

such as...?

Cerberus

21:51

I think there is a law describing how curved bananas are supposed to be.

But that may be a myth.

Otavio Macedo

Haha

Until some years ago, our civil law allowed a husband to dissolve marriage if the bride was not a virgin

Cerberus

There is a law that says parma ham should come from cows butchered in Italy. So in practice most parma ham is from Dutch cows that are driven to Italy only to get killed, then shipped back and made into ham here.

@OtavioMacedo Haha, that's also quite archaic.

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus yes, but the last time someone used it was somewhere in the 40's, I think

Cerberus

Ah OK. phew

I hear many women in conservative countries prick themselves in the hand with a needle to give their new husbands the right impression after their first night.

Alenanno

Hey guys sorry, watching a vid... :D

Anyway... congratulations to @jlovegren for his 3k reputation. :P

Cerberus

21:57

Oh!

Wow, you have serious competition...

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo You're next!

@Cerberus You need to reach it too!

:D

Cerberus

Heh.

Otavio Macedo

@Alenanno I'm a long way to 3k :(

Alenanno

The more we have, the better it's here :P

@OtavioMacedo You're almost there!

Our stats are getting greener. :P

Cerberus

Yay!

I just don't think Linguistics is really comparable to sites where many people have practical questions for their daily lives, as on English or Programming.

Alenanno

21:59

We need to work on the questions...

Yeah but I think we just have not so much active users

Otavio Macedo

We rock! It's just that everyone else in the world didn't realize it yet

3

Alenanno

Otherwise it would be a problem...

@OtavioMacedo Ahah yes!

Star for ya!

Cerberus

Exactly!

Otavio Macedo

People are not so much in the mood for this challenge week

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo I'm thinking of a question! :D

Maybe we could try to lower the views limit for the next one. And give it 2 weeks for advertisement.

Otavio Macedo

22:06

Yes, we need to try different things

to see what works

Cerberus

Hmm so where is the challenge anyway?

Where can I see it?

Alenanno

Same topic!

5

Q: Challenge Weeks Discussion - [#2] Syntax

(!) NOTE: Information may vary until the start of the Challenge. So keep checking! Premise: This Meta question will be the one we will use for this Challenge Week but also for the future ones. The title will change after the hyphen, showing the Challenge's number (in order of time) and the t...

discussion featured challenge-week

Cerberus

Ah OK!

Alenanno

:D

Cerberus

@Alenanno Edited!

Two small typos.

Alenanno

22:20

Yeah?

Thanks!

Cerberus

Now what question can I come up with about syntax...

Perhaps about Portuguese que!

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus Hehe you're still thinking about it :-)

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo It is intriguing in a way.

Could you make another sentence with it?

Or would my question be Gen Ref?

Otavio Macedo

22:35

@Cerberus "As crianças têm que perder o medo"

"Children have to lose their fear"

But, as a conjunction, it can also be used in sentences like "Foi preciso que a polícia interviesse"

"It was necessary for the police to intervene"

"interviesse" is subjunctive

Cerberus

Ah, yes, but the latter example is not very unusual.

It is que + infinitive that is weird, at least to me.

Using the past subjunctive after que sounds logical to me, as does using que after a deontic expression.

So maybe it is ter + que + inf. that I find strange?

Otavio Macedo

Probably

Another example: "Ele achou que perder o jogo foi uma grande vergonha"

"He thought that losing the game was a big shame"

Cerberus

Nah, that's not weird.

Otavio Macedo

Yeah, just the infinitive as a subject

Cerberus

Yeah.

The other Romance languages can do that too, I believe.

Partir, c'est mourir un peu.

Otavio Macedo

22:44

Yeah, "partir é morrer um pouco"

Cerberus

Exactemundo, as we say here!

Alenanno

23:05

Well, see you guys tomorrow... :D Good luck on the question, @Cerberus

Cerberus

@Alenanno Night!

Otavio Macedo

buonanotte, @Alenanno

Alenanno

Notte!

Cerberus

So can you think of an example where "que" introduces a subordinate clause with an infinitive as its main verb, but without "ter" to govern "que"?

Otavio Macedo

"Ele descobriu que fazer o bem é importante"

"He found out that doing good is important"

Cerberus

23:08

Sorry, not a main verb, hehe.

"É" is the main verb there.

Otavio Macedo

Oh, right

let me think

Cerberus

Perhaps I should give you some lessons in Portuguese?

ducks thrown objects that will probably follow

Otavio Macedo

I would benefit a lot from it :-)

Cerberus

Nah.

Otavio Macedo

"Ele sabe que vai morrer amanhã"

but there's nothing outstanding about that sentence

"He knows that he will die tomorrow"

Cerberus

23:14

Vai is a finite verb, isn't it?

By the way, it's funny how you have amanhã while Spanish has mañana!

Otavio Macedo

Yes, but in this case it just marks the future tense

Cerberus

Where does it come from?

@OtavioMacedo But it's still a finite verb, or isn't it?

Otavio Macedo

Let me rephrase it using the standard form: "Ele sabe que morrerá amanhã"

Cerberus

OK, still a finite verb, sorry...

Oh but you didn't mean it wasn't.

Otavio Macedo

Well, in the former sentence, morrer is the main verb and is in the infinitive

but I think that doesn't count, because the auxiliary is inflected

Cerberus

23:17

Yeah.

The examples with ter are really special I think.

There isn't some construction with "to be" or "to give" that is similar?

Otavio Macedo

Hmm, I don't know if the examples with "ter" are special, either

Cerberus

Oh, well I'll just have to give u...no, wait! I can ask it here.

Otavio Macedo

"que" as conjunction usually introduces subordinate clauses in the past subjunctive

"Eu queria que ela estudasse mais"

"I wish that she studied more"

Cerberus

OK. So how do you simply say "I'm telling you she is stupid"?

And is this a complete sentence?:

> Cartago tem que ser destruída

Otavio Macedo

"Estou te dizendo que ela é burra"

Cerberus

23:29

Okay, so that is a regular indicative?

Otavio Macedo

@Cerberus Yes, it's a complete sentence

Cerberus

OK thanks.

Otavio Macedo

"Cartago must be destroyed"

"must" is an auxiliary, right?

and "be" is the main verb

Cerberus

@OtavioMacedo It is an auxiliary, yes.

Otavio Macedo

What if "ter que" is just an analytical form of an auxiliary verb?

(just a hypothesis)

Cerberus

23:38

@OtavioMacedo Hmm...

That could be so, but then the question becomes: how come "que" is involved in an analytical verb that governs an infinitive?

Otavio Macedo

Aha! Now we have a well defined question!

Cerberus

Heh.

But I'm not so sure that analytical verb makes sense.

Otavio Macedo

Yeah, me neither...

Cerberus

I've never heard of an analytical verb with que that worked like an auxiliary.

Question = posted.

I didn't want to post it here, because the double post (with the automatic feed) looks so messy...

Otavio Macedo

Very well written!

Cerberus

23:47

Oh, thanks. I still feel it is a bit vague; I expect some comments like "this construction just exists in Portuguese; there's nothing objectively 'strange' about it".

If you have any ideas how to make it sharper, don't hesitate to edit it!

Otavio Macedo

I normally get a bit frustrated with answers like "shit happens"

Cerberus

Hehe.

Otavio Macedo

I always feel that there is an underlying cause that has not yet been discovered

Cerberus

Yeah, those are usually from people who have just discovered descriptivism and see giants everywhere, whom they then proceed to treat as straw men.

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