lɪŋˈgwɪstɪks

Alenanno

07:13

Hey @Cerberus @Gigili and also @evpok Have you seen this topic?

0

I recently renamed our chat name and description, and now they are: lɪŋgwɪstɪks wɛlkəm tu lɪŋgwɪstɪks! But a proposal was thrown to ask the community about it and decide together. Do you have a proposal? Structure your answer like: > ### Title > Description Obviously, vote ...

Gigili

@Alenanno Hi, done!

Alenanno

@Gigili You're free to make a proposal on your own but thanks! :D By the way, nice question on GL&U.

Gigili

Why thank you. =)

Alenanno

Well, I think something similar exists also in other languages, but I can't explain it, so I'd like to know lol :D

Gigili

In English?

I am the Gigili?

Alenanno

07:23

Maybe, I'm not sure though...

Gigili

Or a Gigili?

Alenanno

I'm not a native speaker.

:D

Gigili

I don't think so, sound extremely odd.

Alenanno

Sorry to be so sudden, but

I have to go now... I'll talk to you later!

:D

Gigili

Have fun. =)

Alenanno

07:24

Sorry!

You too! :)

Gigili

Oh no problem.

Alenanno

:)

Evpok

07:45

@Alenanno Nothing can beat yours. But now I have to get back listening to this cognitive linguistics lecture ;)

Alenanno

11:48

@Evpok Ahah thanks! :)

@OtavioMacedo Is the extension ready?

Otavio Macedo

Yes, you can already use it

I'm working on improving it

Alenanno

Is there a new version I must install?

Otavio Macedo

No, that same version should be fine

date format: dd/mm/yyyy

Alenanno

It doesn't take the information, though. I only get those 2 lines...

No questions.

Otavio Macedo

Hmm, just a minute

Alenanno

12:15

@OtavioMacedo Have to go now, ping me if you need to tell me something. :)

Otavio Macedo

Ok

Cerberus

13:50

@OtavioMacedo: I wrote a few comments in Latin to Filius Lunae, but he hasn't responded...

Otavio Macedo

Oh, let me see

Did you write directly to them?

Cerberus

OK one sec.

filiuslunae.com/2011/04/…

Otavio Macedo

14:03

So, you're saying that you have to be careful when reading texts translated into Latin

is that it?

Cerberus

Hmm no, I said that the Vulgate is ugly Latin.

He said he wanted to read it.

Otavio Macedo

Have you read Cicero?

Cerberus

Sure.

Some orations and letters.

Wai?

Cicero's Latin is the golden standard of style and grammar.

Otavio Macedo

Yes, I've read that medieval authors used to read Cicero to train their Latin and rhetoric skills

But the Church warned them that they should not become too excited about the reading

After all, he was a pagan writer

I don't know if that's true

Cerberus

Hehe.

Such warnings may have been uttered at times. But all intellectuals in the Middle Ages highly revered their heritage from Antiquity. So it was a bit of a mixed bag: usually most people liked and praised Cicero, but sometimes people would warn against the contents of his writings while still praising his style.

Attempts were made to make the most honoured pagan writers appear as proto-Christians.

Whether or not they would be admitted to heaven as pagans was often under debate.

Otavio Macedo

14:17

I have a deep respect for religion, even though I'm not religious myself

but medieval theological discussions such as that seem a bit silly

Cerberus

Very.

But many such discussions were of considerable importance to them.

@OtavioMacedo Hey, do you have an intuitive idea about how "elegant" certain languages are?

I do. But most people in the ELU room didn't seem to have it.

And my ideas seem to be similar to those of other Dutchmen.

Otavio Macedo

Well, I don't know too many languages

But I consider Latin to be very much elegant

While Spanish not so much, for example

Cerberus

OK. And Italian?

Latin is a bit difficult, because we are not used to hearing it spoken.

I have primarily spoken language in mind.

Otavio Macedo

Ah, ok

Italian and Swedish are the most elegant, in my opinion

Cerberus

Because I expect written language to be even more complicated as to elegance.

Otavio Macedo

14:26

considering "rhythm" alone

Cerberus

Hmm does that have to do with tones?

Oh.

Otavio Macedo

Yes, I think it has to do with tones

Cerberus

OK.

How about French?

Otavio Macedo

Oh, French too

Cerberus

@Gigi: Do you have an intuitive idea of how elegant a certain language appears to you?

Otavio Macedo

14:27

But Dutch sounds a bit harsh to me, if you'll excuse me ;-)

Cerberus

I recognize that tone contributes to elegance. But to me it is also determined by other things.

@OtavioMacedo Heh, yes, it is basically a fisherman's dialect. It is harsh and wooden.

By the way, elegant and beautiful are two different things to me.

I come to find all languages beautiful once I really get to know them well.

To me, the Romance languages are distinctly more elegant than the Germanic or Slavic languages.

Otavio Macedo

What else do you think contributes to elegance?

Cerberus

Possibly that bit I mentioned earlier about timing between syllables.

And ending syllables with occlusives.

Oh, and liaison!

Very important.

Does Portuguese have liaison?

Otavio Macedo

What is liaison?

Gigili

@Cerberus Uhum, German. =)

Cerberus

14:31

It is this thing in French where vowel - [word end] - glottal stop is avoided whenever possible.

Otavio Macedo

Oh, yes we have

Cerberus

In French, it is avoided by pronouncing a consonant at the end that is normally mute, or even by adding an unetymological consonant.

@Gigili Hmm really? German more elegant than French?

@OtavioMacedo Cool; can you give me an example?

Otavio Macedo

In Portuguese, occlusives are not allowed at word ends

Cerberus

Ah OK, just as in French and Italian, most of the time, I think?

Otavio Macedo

Yes, it's naturally that way

and there's something interesting that occurs in some dialects

For example, in the Rio de Janeiro dialect, "r" is pronounced as [h]

Cerberus

14:34

By the way, I'm not trying to find criteria that would allow me to call a language elegenat—merely trying to find the subconscious elements that shape my intuition.

@OtavioMacedo In all positions?

Otavio Macedo

at the end of syllables

but if a word ends in "r" and the next starts with a vowel

then it is pronounced as [ɾ]

Cerberus

I remember this guy from Rio once explained how it is pronounced like Rio-d'Janei(r?) in Rio.

@OtavioMacedo Oh, let me look that sound up, hehe.

Oh, a strong r.

Yes, that is some kind of liaison I'd say.

Gigili

@Cerberus Yes of course, the more complicated a language is, the more elegant it can be.

Cerberus

@Gigili Hmm I don't know whether that matches my sense of elegance. And why do you feel that German is more complicated?

It doesn't seem more complicated to me, obviously.

Gigili

French is a more poetic language compared to German, because of the tone.

Cerberus

14:39

OK, perhaps that is what I mean by elegant.

Elegent, poetic, romantic.

Especially French and Italian make me think of flowers and dancing maidens at sunset.

Whereas German makes me think of elephants.

Elephants are beautiful and cool too, but in a different way.

Gigili

Elephants are beautiful? Peh.

Cerberus

English is maybe a stork.

Gigili

Elegant as in every sentence in German contains a point or something.

Okay, I like German the most.

Cerberus

Haha.

That you like German doesn't have to mean that it wins in every category.

Gigili

It does somehow.

You mean that you like French does have to mean that it wins in every category?

Cerberus

14:44

Yes.

Gigili

(Yes.)

Cerberus

It lacks rigour and consistency. And irony.

Excuse me?

Haha, do you have writer's Latourette?

Gigili

But it sounds really funny sometimes, like "ich verstehe nichts, ich mich nicht dich"

A very nice sentence I just made up.

@Cerberus Haha, no.

Cerberus

You mean the ch sound?

Gigili

Yes.

Otavio Macedo

14:59

@Gigili, is this accurate?

►

Because the girl that teaches Portuguese in that series is awful

I mean, she's not even a native speaker

Oh, @Cerberus, I remembered another language that sounds incredibly elegant to me: Romanian!

A nice mixture of Romance and Slavic

Cerberus

Hmm...

To me it sounds elegant because it is a Romance language; but the ʃ and such make it sound a bit "off" to me. But I can't really tell whether a language is elegant if I don't know it fairly well. I hardly know anything about Romanian.

Gigili

15:15

@OtavioMacedo In what sense?

Never mind, got it.

It's loading.

Otavio Macedo

btw, are all Iranian girls as pretty as her?

hehe

Gigili

They are, they are.

Otavio Macedo

"Salam" is a loanword, isn't it?

From Arabic

Gigili

Yes, it's Arabic, I'd say.

Jinx.

Cerberus

15:34

Inshallah.

Alenanno

19:32

Hello! @Cerberus @OtavioMacedo and @Gigili

Otavio Macedo

Hi!

This Challenge Week thing is being a great opportunity for me to learn some javascript

Alenanno

:D

Cerberus

Oh?

What for?

Alenanno

The script that autofills the answers with data from the challenge (so we don't type tons of stuff).

Cerberus

Oh...

So what data are these?

Are they visible?

Alenanno

19:42

Sure!

0

A: Challenge Weeks Database

Challenge Week #1 13 February 2012 - 20 February 2012 The Week's topic was Historical Linguistics and our glorious winner was [yet to be decided]! Questions: (120) Where did Spanish get its /x/? Arabic influence? (71) Is the Dené–Yeniseian hypothesis widely accepted, and has it led to ...

Cerberus

Oh, nice list.

Otavio Macedo

The idea is to compile those lists for every challenge week

Cerberus

So you use Js to automatically extract the number of views, title etc. and post it there?

Alenanno

@Cerberus If you have advice for the formatting, feel free to share, obviously. :D

Otavio Macedo

This one was done manually

Because the script wasn't working

But I'm fixing it

Oh, sure, every suggestion is welcome

formatting, features, etc

Cerberus

19:45

It looks perfect.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Basically, we start by "posting an answer", activate the script and it should provide some data with some basic formatting we decided. Then I/we/they/aliens fix it, in case there are mistakes or for improving it.

Cerberus

Haha.

OK.

Otavio Macedo

The aliens are a bit quiet, though

Cerberus

I couldn't write a single line of Js, alas.

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo They are mostly on Area51 looking at the proposals.

Cerberus

19:49

Hahaha.

Lazy green men.

Gigili

73 visitors and no upvote-downvote-comment?

You know, that sucks.

Cerberus

Where?

Gigili

That meta post

"you have to understand" is a figure of speech?

Otavio Macedo

@Gigili in what context?

Gigili

Um, someone was explaining something to me and said "you have to understand blabla"

When I replied how dare you, I don't have to.

Cerberus

19:56

Yes, he is right.

Gigili

he said it's a figure of speech.

Alenanno

@Gigili It's like saying "It's necessary that you understand...", but it's not always meant that strongly/literally.

Gigili

How so?

Cerberus

It is like "you should consider that...".

Alenanno

@Gigili It does. :P

Cerberus

19:57

So it is still slightly patronising, but not as aggressive as it would be literally.

Gigili

Oh, well .. I got the impression that he's giving me orders or something.

Cerberus

Nah.

It is like "you should know that...".

Gigili

"slightly patronizing" is still something.

Cerberus

Yes.

It is like "perhaps you didn't realize that...".

Gigili

Or I guess you're stupid..

Cerberus

20:00

Yes, in a mild form. You would normally avoid this phrase, but it would not be absurd if it came up in the heat of the moment.

Gigili

Or how you didn't realize that? You're such an idiot.

@Cerberus Right, got it. Thank you.

Cerberus

@Gigili Well, obviously that is far more aggressive than the actual expression.

So I would just ignore it if I were you.

It's not so outrageous that it needs to be set straight.

Gigili

I'll try to ignore it. it was an embarrassing situation when he said it's a figure of speech.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Gigili

I'm a bit grumpy.

Cerberus

20:04

He has to understand that he shouldn't use such idiomatic phrases with non-native speakers like us.

Especially not if their idiomatic meaning is still patronizing.

Alenanno

@Cerberus It depends on the context. :D

Cerberus

A simple, factual statement will do: "Thailand is not an island" > "You have to understand that Thailand is not an island."

@Alenanno Always!

Gigili

@Cerberus You're very understanding!

Cerberus

Always.

I have to.

@Ale: Is this song well known in Italy?

►

Alenanno

Mh, it's recent, but I wouldn't say it's unknown... :)

Otavio Macedo

20:10

Does that mean "I don't know what to do"?

Alenanno

I didn't know it, but well... :P

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Not your genre, I know.

@OtavioMacedo I assumed it does.

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo "I don't know what to do anymore."

Cerberus

That ^.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Well, usually not, but I'm not exactly tied to a single genre. I don't mind some songs of his, although I don't actively listen to them.

Cerberus

20:11

And the second line "I don't know what this is any more"?

@Alenanno Yeah OK. I mainly like a few of his older songs.

Otavio Macedo

is there an implicit "che" there?

Alenanno

@Cerberus Time?

Otavio Macedo

like, "Non so più che cosa fare"

Alenanno

@OtavioMacedo Uhm, good question. "Non so più che cosa fare" is correct, but it's too long when you say it, and so "Non so più cosa fare" might be more common (I don't have any data for this)

Cerberus

@Alenanno I meant "non so più cosa c'è", if I spelled that correctly.

Alenanno

20:14

@Cerberus Yes :D just the più.

Cerberus

Oh, right!

Alenanno

c'è = there is

ci sono = there are

Cerberus

Ohh right.

Alenanno

But

Cerberus

Ci sono sounds more familiar.

Alenanno

20:15

:D

But the sentence alone like that means little to me, it might be useful to check the near lines. :D

Cerberus

By the way, can you test something for me? When you right-click on the little round thing that shows what time you are at in the song (it moves to the right as the song progresses), do you get a context menu saying "copy link at current time" etc.?

It used to, but somehow it has stopped doing that.

Perhaps I changed something in my browser.

Alenanno

youtube.com/…

Try

Does it start at 1:20?

Cerberus

Yes. So did you get that from the context menu?

Alenanno

Yes.

Cerberus

OK then it is my browser.

Alenanno

20:18

What do you use?

Cerberus

FF.

It used to work.

But today it doesn't.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Fast Forward? :P ahah

Cerberus

Alenanno

XD

Otavio Macedo

21:00

Hi, @Evpok!

Alenanno

Hey @Evpok

Alenanno

21:22

@OtavioMacedo He went away, abandoning us. @Evpok How dare you!!! :O

Otavio Macedo

Yeah, I gotta go, too

Later!

Alenanno

Later

:)

@Gigili and @Cerberus any of you is online?

Gigili

Yes.

Cerberus

Bye!

Alenanno

@Gigili I was wondering, do you mind if I ask what country you currently live in?

Gigili

21:27

You already asked it, no?

Alenanno

@Gigili Nope. :D I think I asked where were you from, maybe?

Gigili

@Alenanno Oh, then I live in the same country.

Alenanno

@Gigili Ah ok! :D :)

@Gigili Is Farsi's grammar hard?

Gigili

Not for me. =)

Alenanno

Ahah well I'll ask specific questions

for example

Gigili

21:30

Seriously, I think it's not that hard. It has what most languages have and so.

Alenanno

@Gigili do you have grammatical cases? I assume not, but who knows.

Gigili

We have something like that, like we use some special propositions for some cases and something.

But not like German cases.

Alenanno

I see

Verbs have conjugations?

Gigili

Yes

Alenanno

Do you mind conjugating here the verb to eat at the present tense? Using the Latin transliteration :D

Gigili

21:36

Um

khordam, khordi, khord, khordim, khordid, khordand

Alenanno

Cool :D

@Gigili Thanks :)

Gigili

Sure thing. ;)

Cerberus

Looks very IE!

-m...-d/zero, -m, -d, -nd all look pretty IE.

Evpok

@Alenanno I was just creeping the chat. I have sworn to get an evening of linguistics ;)

Gigili

Internet Explorer?

Alenanno

21:49

@Evpok Excuses! :P

@Gigili Indo-European.

Same as PIE = Proto-Indo-European.

Gigili

I see.

Alenanno

:)

Evpok

@Alenanno So now I'll let you bother @Gigili without my valuable help :p

Alenanno

@Evpok I'm not bothering anyone! I'm helping! :P

Gigili

@Alenanno I thought I was helping?

Alenanno

21:50

@Gigili I mean about "IE".

Gigili

@Alenanno Um? aha.

Alenanno

@Gigili You helped me with the information about Farsi. :)

Evpok

Good night, all :)

Alenanno

@Evpok Night!

Gigili

@Alenanno It was nothing, I just didn't notice that you were helping me!

Alenanno

21:54

@Gigili Did you know that "IE" meant Indo-European?

Gigili

@Alenanno I knew Persian is an IE language.

Alenanno

@Gigili Wasn't Farsi the language's name?

Gigili

Persian is more common, but yes, Farsi is also its name.

Alenanno

I see... :)

Cerberus

How do you say Persian in Persian?

Gigili

21:58

We say Farsi.

Cerberus

@Gigili And what different connotations do both words have?

@Gigili Ah OK!

Alenanno

@Gigili Ahah nice! That deserved a star. :P

Cerberus

But, if you would use Persian yourself in English, I will use that too.

It is much better than saying Farsi, which is like saying Italiano.

Nobody says that (in English).

Alenanno

@Cerberus Farsi sounds better in English than Italiano does, though. :P

Cerberus

Not to me!

I never realized Farsi is the same root as Persian.

Gigili

22:00

@Cerberus Right, it's more stylish.

Cerberus

Yeah.

I mean, do you say Nederlands?

I bet you don't.

Gigili

I didn't understand your other question, BTW.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Me?

Cerberus

@Gigili Never mind, I typed that before you said that.

@Alenanno Both of you!

Alenanno

I say Dutch, yes. :)

Cerberus

22:02

Surprise, surprise!

I vouch never to say anything but Persian in the future.

In Dutch, I will also say Perzisch.

Most people misguidedly say Farsi (I assumed there was no equivalent word).

Gigili

Yes, it's persisch in German.

Alenanno

It's persiano in Italian :D

Cerberus

Yeah, and Perzisch in Dutch.

In ancient Greek, Persos.

Alenanno

@Cerberus Show off!

:D

Cerberus

Meh, that's nothing. You know that too!

Alenanno

22:04

What about Latin?

Cerberus

You did Latin and Greek in school, no?

Alenanno

Only Latin.

Cerberus

Oh!

Alenanno

:P

Cerberus

How common is Greek in schools?

Alenanno

22:05

Only in the Liceo Classico, as far as I know.

Latin is more spread.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Alenanno

:P

Alenanno

22:28

Gotta go now, night everyone! @Cerberus and @Gigili

Cerberus

Night!

Gigili

Good night.

Transcript for