TNB Conlang (katlani)

Redwolf Programs

21:00

I can't run VScode on my chromebook

ASCII-only

D:

ouch?

whats the issue

pxeger

is it just too memory heavy or whatever?

Redwolf Programs

VS code itself runs too slowly (anything does on a $150 piece of plastic), but whatever the live share uses as a server, it's blocked on my school wifi

ASCII-only

well

imo the best option would be to add more features to the bot tbh...

Redwolf Programs

Idk

I'm not a fan of using chatbots for stuff that's easier by hand

pxeger

21:02

But you just explained why it's harder by hand

Redwolf Programs

Honestly I'm not a fan of having this bot in the first place, but Ginger's put a lot of work into it so I didn't really want to say that

@pxeger Not to my knowledge I didn't...

pxeger

You complained about VS code not working for you, and GitHub being too high friction

ASCII-only

hackmd still works fine, no?

there are... minor issues with its version control, sure

Redwolf Programs

My proposal is: We keep the GH, manually edit it, and use the HackMD as a list to keep track of new words. When you make a word, either you or a bot adds it to the HackMD, and we manually copy the words over to the GH on occasion.

No point in having the whole dictionary on HackMD since that's what GH is for

ASCII-only

sounds fine to me

Redwolf Programs

21:05

No point in manually editing GH when HackMD is faster and already set up

So win-win in my eyes

pxeger

@RedwolfPrograms oh ok that's fine by me

ASCII-only

- golfy - fast

bruh what

Redwolf Programs

We fixed that, I think

ASCII-only

doesnt seem like it

neither on gh nor hackmd

Redwolf Programs

Oops

ASCII-only

21:07

btw

i have no idea whether the bot is even back up yet

Redwolf Programs

The bot is not back up

ASCII-only

f

pxeger

it's not in the room, it's definitely not gonna work

I think for the bot to be usable, it needs to be run on a reliable server by someone who doesn't need to be online the whole time for it to work

that could be me or redwolf, I'm guessing

Redwolf Programs

I'd be fine with running it on my server if we agree to keep it

ASCII-only

i have a droplet but i'm probably way too inactive in SE chat (= updating the bot would be hard)

Ginger Industries

21:10

I'm back

pxeger

also this would require permission to use the GingerBot account and password

Ginger Industries

I have the means to run the bot

I'm going to set it up in a few hrs

ASCII-only

@pxeger or just create a new account

and/or reuse an old bot account

Ginger Industries

@RedwolfPrograms what do you mean, fixed? golfy is a great word!

Redwolf Programs

But for fast?

ASCII-only

21:11

is there a word for "programming"?

kod i guess...

Redwolf Programs

srik vi kod is what I'd use

ASCII-only

wait no

no i mean programming (adj)

Ginger Industries

@RedwolfPrograms if golf means "try to do shortly"" golfy can mean "fast"

ASCII-only

as in "programming language"

Wezl - a cautionary tale

use vi kod

Redwolf Programs

21:12

shor vi kod

pxeger

@ASCII-only that's more of a compound noun, not really using it as an adjective

Ginger Industries

the bot will be back soon, just be patient

ASCII-only

ok fair

pxeger

What does this vi mean? It doesn't seem to be defined anywhere

Redwolf Programs

It's similar to my

pxeger

21:13

@RedwolfPrograms @ASCII-only I rejected the request to install hackmd based on this being consensus, right?

ASCII-only

si "c" su shor my kod golfy

hmmm

yea sure

pxeger

@ASCII-only verb first

Redwolf Programs

We have 160 words

ASCII-only

darn

wait

Redwolf Programs

You can technically do subject or object first, but people get mad at you

ASCII-only

21:15

how do adjectives work with possession?

pxeger

@RedwolfPrograms I thought verb-first was basically the only concrete rule

Ginger Industries

"slow" is nogolfy

Redwolf Programs

@pxeger Wait it was? I was under the impression it didn't matter because of the casing

pxeger

@ASCII-only do you want to describe the possessor, or the possessee?

ASCII-only

oh actually

i guess you never need to describe the entire phrase, since that's just describing the possessee

pxeger

21:18

@RedwolfPrograms I was basing the case system vaguely on German's, where verb still has to come second

Redwolf Programs

Wait, uboiac has a c in it

I really think we should allow c, but only in place of k

pxeger

That's alright, tomatoes are disgusting anyway so the word is allowed to have disgusting letters in them

Redwolf Programs

But I've changed it to uboiak for now

pxeger

@RedwolfPrograms I'd probably be on board with that tbh. There are too many conlangs in which all cs get replaced with k

ASCII-only

>:(

i have better solution

replace all k with c

Redwolf Programs

21:20

No

Gross

pxeger

@pxeger Having the verb always first also means we can have words which are both verbs and nouns with no lexical ambiguity

ASCII-only

well... in that case

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only Why can't we have both? It introduces no ambiguity and makes things look nicer

ASCII-only

i dont see why replacing all c with k is an issue

eh technically it does introduce ambiguity

pxeger

tbh I think it looks ugly

Redwolf Programs

21:21

^

ASCII-only

now every time one has to spell a word

they encounter the crisis of having to remember whether this word uses c or k

Redwolf Programs

Hmm, true

ASCII-only

well the problem is

if k is ugly

pxeger

English people manage fine with a huge number of spelling ambiguities

ASCII-only

and c is gross

pxeger

21:22

I think we can manage a very few

ASCII-only

big bruh

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only No and no

ASCII-only

@pxeger and this is why english is the fifth worst language in existence

Redwolf Programs

They're just ugly when you expect one and get the other

ASCII-only

a bit of an exaggeration

pxeger

21:22

@RedwolfPrograms this is what I meant, yeah

ASCII-only

anything using chinese scripts are arguably worse

Redwolf Programs

k and c aren't ugly on their own; they're ugly when you see words like kloak and cill

ASCII-only

@RedwolfPrograms only if you're used to english spellings

Redwolf Programs

Which we are :p

ASCII-only

and english spellings are objectively cringe [citation-needed]

to put it another way

Redwolf Programs

21:24

But I'm fine with sticking with k, a bijection between spelling and pronounciation is a nice feature and k, though an acquired taste, does look kinda good in place of c

ASCII-only

no sane person would use english as an inspiration when making a conlang

Redwolf Programs

Not an inspiration, but if you're designing a language for english speakers to use, you should keep in mind what's familiar to them

pxeger

@RedwolfPrograms in that case, I'd like k to be an uncommon letter

ASCII-only

@RedwolfPrograms you should keep in mind that webster attempted to make english spellings more sane

a couple hundred years ago

pxeger

because many of its current uses are still a bit ugly to me

Redwolf Programs

21:25

We need to use d more, it only shows up 4 times

@ASCII-only Wait what

ASCII-only

also, the question then is: is this language aimed primarily at english speakers

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms How is this relevant

Fmbalbuena

@RedwolfPrograms how to learn katlani

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only TNB has exactly one common language

@Fmbalbuena I'd start with the phonetics and alphabet, then the grammar

pxeger

well, I can think of a few users who don't even really speak english...

Redwolf Programs

21:27

@Fmbalbuena Feel free to ping me (or anyone here) with any questions you have!

ASCII-only

ok well idk

like

if you want a language that's similar to english

Redwolf Programs

here's the phonetics

ASCII-only

at that point just extend english

Fmbalbuena

@RedwolfPrograms hello in katlani

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms and here's the grammar

ASCII-only

21:28

and of course, there's the issue with english cs (the other sound) being replaced with s

Redwolf Programs

@Fmbalbuena Hai! (pronounced "hi"), Haia! (pronounced "hiya"), or Hiya!

ASCII-only

and i'm not quite sure how that's any better than cs being replaced with k

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only We don't

It's just that if you're used to seeing c in certain contexts, seeing k there seems ugly

ASCII-only

2 mins ago, by ASCII-only

and of course, there's the issue with english cs (the other sound) being replaced with s

Redwolf Programs

That's a lot less common though. It's not really the default for an s-like sound to be c

ASCII-only

21:31

????!??!?!

Redwolf Programs

But most of the k sounds in english are cs

So if a word ends in iak, iac looks a lot more natural to me

But there are few contexts where a c looks more natural than an s to me, aside from english words I know have cs

ASCII-only

it's true that it's less common. but

Redwolf Programs

But I reallt don't see why you're wasting both of our time arguing something I agree with you on

8 mins ago, by Redwolf Programs

But I'm fine with sticking with k, a bijection between spelling and pronounciation is a nice feature and k, though an acquired taste, does look kinda good in place of c

ASCII-only

on this page:
sinse
pronunsiation
nise
plase
replase

Redwolf Programs

Yep, and about those specific examples look wrong to me. But if you changed those up into non-english-words, they'd look fine.

Four of those have silent es

And that's the main place I expect a c

Pronunsiation actually looks better to me

Fmbalbuena

21:34

@RedwolfPrograms world

Redwolf Programs

We don't have a word for that yet

You can make one if you need it though

ASCII-only

ok i mean

Redwolf Programs

In other words, I only like c to replace s to make up for other weird english spelling stuff. In almost all contexts, s looks better to me.

For k, that's not true.

Fmbalbuena

WR: wodl world

ASCII-only

well another question

does c really look worse than k

isnt o already taken

by cat

Redwolf Programs

21:36

@ASCII-only That sort of implies there's an objective answer

ASCII-only

to u

Redwolf Programs

This is entirely subjective, based on what you're used to

ASCII-only

i looked through the current vocab

but by inspection

Fmbalbuena

@RedwolfPrograms Now i can post to Hello, world! using Hai, o!

ASCII-only

for the vast majority of the words based on english, the original word was spelt with a c

soooo

Redwolf Programs

21:37

@Fmbalbuena Nice! I like wodl more than o though, o is a cat :p

ASCII-only

for the vast majority of the other words that resemble an english word, the corresponding english word is also spelt with a c

e.g.
matiks vs matics
klok vs cloc (clock)
mak vs mac

Redwolf Programs

mak and "mac" have no relation

ASCII-only

1 min ago, by ASCII-only

for the vast majority of the other words that resemble an english word, the corresponding english word is also spelt with a c

Redwolf Programs

Ah, missed "resemble"

@ASCII-only Now try the same with s

I can't find any that have c in english

Fmbalbuena

0

A: "Hello, World!"

Katlni, 10 bytes Hai, wodl! This conlang...

Redwolf Programs

21:41

lol

ASCII-only

@RedwolfPrograms would that not strengthen my point (that every instance of k could be replaced with c, and it would be more sensible for english users)?

Redwolf Programs

But c would be ugly to me

ASCII-only

re: wodl

@RedwolfPrograms but my point is, it's not ugly to english speakers, no?

Redwolf Programs

What makes you say that?

ASCII-only

since they're actually spelled with a c in english?

Redwolf Programs

21:42

I'm an english speaker, no?

@ASCII-only Not necessarily related

I think quite a bit of english's usage of c is also ugly

ASCII-only

well at that point

why use "it's more familiar to english speakers" as an argument...

anyway re: wodl

l isn't a thing, no?

Redwolf Programs

But anyway, I'd rather not argue this anymore. I think what we're arguing is deeply subjective. If you can gather a few more supporters for changing k to c, we can do that. But I'd rather stick with k.

ASCII-only

same with w

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only it is

Oh, but w is not

So vodl maybe?

ASCII-only

ok so phonetics is missing l

uodl imo

1 min ago, by ASCII-only

why use "it's more familiar to english speakers" as an argument...

this was my main gripe in the first place. but ok sure

Fmbalbuena

21:46

BYE

ASCII-only

there are probably more productive things to do

like suggesting new words

Redwolf Programs

WR: konso (v): To argue, disagree

ASCII-only

o_o

Redwolf Programs

A word with both a k and s :p

ASCII-only

evil

Redwolf Programs

21:48

WR: krao (a): Final, last

ASCII-only

assuming i'm using it right... would nokrao be "not final", or "initial"

Redwolf Programs

I don't think no really makes sense for that sort of thing

But I suppose if it did, that's what it'd mean

ASCII-only

what's no- for then

Redwolf Programs

WR: ndod (a): Far, distant

@ASCII-only I would only use it for obvious opposites, but I don't think we ever really agreed

I'd say do it democratically. If you like no- with a word, use it with that word.

All the stupid combinations just won't get used.

WR: spod (a): Close

ASCII-only

:/ :/ :/

mfw inglish is a thing

i'd personally probably do something like shor my ingl (assuming ingl/angl/anglo was a thing)

Redwolf Programs

21:52

Or possibly shor my maki do (ingland OR britania OR angl[something])

"The language of the people from England"

ASCII-only

do doesn't seem to be in vocab.md??

Redwolf Programs

Oh yeah, the discussion on id/ud/do/vi never made it there

ASCII-only

@RedwolfPrograms this is ok but... idk man seems pretty long

Redwolf Programs

kailan ma pat fara o/

ASCII-only

o/

DLosc

21:55

@Wezl-acautionarytale no gust :P

@ASCII-only haia

Redwolf Programs

fy aksi ma lia isa isplo

ASCII-only

hai dilosk

Wezl - a cautionary tale

@DLosc ama ma. no gus makai su niny.

Redwolf Programs

mogusi ito kib [minutes]

ASCII-only

ok i still dont know how to grammar

ok yknow what

i feel like english would be inglani or something

Wezl - a cautionary tale

21:57

no kata imi su inglish!

DLosc

@Wezl-acautionarytale gus ma su [pineapple]

ASCII-only

no gust >:(

DLosc

Speaking of debates: Can someone summarize for me what our current procedure is re: GitHub, HackMD, and word proposals?

ASCII-only

i'm assuming just chat

Wezl - a cautionary tale

@DLosc ama ma. gus maka su [pineapple]. no gus maka su [pineapple] manvi [pizza]

ASCII-only

21:59

and/or a hackmd for new proposals

and the bot would read hackmd instead of chat or something

Wezl - a cautionary tale

;)

ASCII-only

asciionly's temporary WR hackmd

Wezl - a cautionary tale

gus ma su pasny asi onion

DLosc

@Wezl-acautionarytale sy gust

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only I was thinking more like the bot still reads from chat, but posts in the hackmd

ASCII-only

22:05

ah

does bot look at history btw?

otherwise we might need the temp hackmd anyway. idk

Redwolf Programs

That also means we can use better subdivisions of types of words, or orderings other than alphabetical in the GH

Since handing those with a bot would be annoying

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms The longer our word lists get, the better an alphabetical order sounds to me

Redwolf Programs

Not for stuff like pronouns though

DLosc

We can have a table of pronouns somewhere else too

ASCII-only

well tbh

DLosc

22:07

since there's only a few of those and they're not likely to change [fingers crossed]

ASCII-only

i'm not quite sure if alphabetical order has any advantage

DLosc

BIG advantage

ASCII-only

maybe if it was english -> katlani

Redwolf Programs

Oh, good point...maybe vocab.md shouldn't have any part of speech categories

DLosc

I can scroll down the list and see if a word is there or not

Redwolf Programs

22:08

And just alphabetical for the whole thing

ASCII-only

you could also ctrl+f

DLosc

even if I can't remember exactly how to spell it (so I can't just search it)

ASCII-only

ctrl+f the english meaning maybe?

but fair i guess...

but the issue is, if you forget whether the second letter is an i or a y

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms I think it should. They're words, after all. Just the grammatical words should also be listed in the relevant section of the grammar description

ASCII-only

those are going to be pretty far apart

DLosc

22:09

@ASCII-only So I scroll some more

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only I think dlosc is talking about looking up a word you don't know

DLosc

Or if you don't remember exactly which English word was used as the translation, which is an issue somebody already ran into

(looking for "have" and oto was listed as "own," IIRC)

ASCII-only

well... i have a terrible alternative

hackmd's regex search

e.g. /k.+l/

@DLosc i think this can be solved decently enough by adding enough synonyms

esp. "is" and the like for "to be"

DLosc

@ASCII-only Probably, but we just haven't been doing that

ASCII-only

ah but see, we haven't doesn't mean we can't

DLosc

22:11

I think, especially if we're adding words manually, it should be easy enough to keep them alphabetized, and I don't see a reason not to

ASCII-only

especially considering we're currently discussing possible solutions, yeys?

well... alphabetized is great for dictionaries

Redwolf Programs

I support alphabetical ordering as well

ASCII-only

not great for learning a language

Redwolf Programs

vocab.md is a dictionary imo

DLosc

^

ASCII-only

22:12

i'd probably like an alternative vocab

or even better

the reference dictionary, so to speak, would be a json

DLosc

@ASCII-only What do you have in mind? Starting with basic words you need to learn first? Might be a good idea for a separate document.

Redwolf Programs

We can put particles, pronouns, and important basic words in a tutorial or separate md file

ASCII-only

which both vocab.md and an interactive page would be generated from

hot take time: i think a json of words -> tags would be a good idea

Wezl - a cautionary tale

who wants to make an english->katlani dictionary?

maybe later after more words?

DLosc

Later, yeah

ASCII-only

22:14

cough json as source of truth

DLosc

Too much is in flux at the moment

ASCII-only

{
  "<duck in katlani>": ["<definition>", ["<tags>", "pos:noun", "animal", "bird"]]
}

Redwolf Programs

I'd be fine with you or someone else making the json file, but imo it's not needed

DLosc

@ASCII-only That has some advantages, definitely. My main question is will we stick with it?

It might work

ASCII-only

3 mins ago, by ASCII-only

which both vocab.md and an interactive page would be generated from

imo it would be an excellent resource for new speakers, or just in general

Wezl - a cautionary tale

22:16

more elegant IMO to have {"tags":{"duck":["pos:noun","animal","bird"]},"definitions":{"duck":"a duck"}} but not very important

Redwolf Programs

Seems like a solution to the wrong problem

But I'd support an interactive site I guess

DLosc

@ASCII-only How about this: can you put together a working proof-of-concept? Then we can assess how easy it will be to use & maintain.

Wezl - a cautionary tale

gus ma su JSON

ASCII-only

@RedwolfPrograms in what way is this a "wrong problem"

time to do some livecoding??? :o???

jsfiddle

Redwolf Programs

WR: alfabit: Alphabet

DLosc

22:30

Oh also: I'm in favor of either using k everywhere or using c everywhere. Let's keep the writing system simple.

user

Have y'all been conlanging nonstop since yesterday?

DLosc

Collectively, maybe. I was away for at least a 12-hour stretch and then some more during the day today.

ni fara ma a kaminar. baia!

Wezl - a cautionary tale

WR: kaminar (v): to walk

lyxal

@user there was a few hours of break yesterday

user

Ah

Redwolf Programs

22:44

@Wezl-acautionarytale VTC as dupe

That was the first word I proposed IIRC

Wezl - a cautionary tale

yeah I'm re-proposing it for searchability

Redwolf Programs

Ah ok

WR: yg (conj): So, then, thus

Wezl - a cautionary tale

[pineapple] manvi [pizza] vaiksal yg no gus ma su niny

ASCII-only

@DLosc status update: i think it's working now...

Redwolf Programs

Can we stop using vaiksal? Lyxal has said he and the other vyxal maintainers dislike the "vyxal bad" joke, so we really shouldn't incorporate it into our language.

6

ASCII-only

22:55

jsfiddle permalink

Transcript for