TNB Conlang (katlani)

ASCII-only

02:01

i mean... not like "izl" and "biter" aren't both two syllables

if the suffixes are still a thing though

hyper-neutrino

wait have we abandoned verb-first

also what does kailan mean

ASCII-only

i dont think so

a chinese vegetable

Redwolf Programs

Did we ever have verb-first in the first place?

Unrelated String

i thought we did

ASCII-only

*to need

Redwolf Programs

02:02

@hyper-neutrino I proposed for it to mean "to need"

ASCII-only

well hackmd says verb first

im not sure what are the actual strict requirements

Redwolf Programs

The order doesn't matter, that's half the point of noun casing, right?

Unrelated String

^

regarding nouns that is

Redwolf Programs

Verb first is a good default, but for emphasis you should be able to rearrange things

ASCII-only

~~who needs noun casing anyway tbh~~

Unrelated String

02:03

i feel like having strict verb first could make subordinate clauses easier

but yeah rearranging for emphasis isn't a bad idea

Redwolf Programs

Sure, so do verb first then

ASCII-only

hackmd currently says "verb first always"

Redwolf Programs

But rearranging is great for adding emphasis or varying things up

Unrelated String

could just change to strong tendency to verb first

ASCII-only

so if the actual restrictions are clarified that'd be nice

hyper-neutrino

02:04

i mean it's not a problem to say you need to have verb first and then just break grammar rules for artistic license

ASCII-only

i guess it's just

kinda a soup of verb + cased nouns (?) rn?

hyper-neutrino

like i'm pretty sure we break english rules all the time when it serves a particular purpose to communicate something? or maybe not, idk

Redwolf Programs

English doesn't really have rules though, the "rules" are just observations about how we use it

ASCII-only

ok re: the -i suffix. i feel like it'd be nicer as a suffix for plurals, like it used to be in an old version of the vocab

Redwolf Programs

And if multiple speakers of katlani agree verbs don't always go first, then it's hardly a rule that they go first

@ASCII-only It is

Unrelated String

02:05

english does have rules and if you break them it ceases to be english

ASCII-only

but thats probably just me thinking latin is quirky and exotic

Unrelated String

it also has suggestions

Redwolf Programs

@UnrelatedString I don't know about that...

You can do some pretty weird stuff with english and have it still be considered english my most people

Unrelated String

if i rolled my face on the keyboard and said that was a sentence in english i would be wrong

Redwolf Programs

Unless it made sense in the context of other english, or people decided it was english

hyper-neutrino

02:07

@UnrelatedString that's not just "breaking the rules of english" tho

Unrelated String

like arguably there are degrees of grammaticality

ASCII-only

eng  ha  ru
lish ve  le

 no  is  no en
rule     glish

hyper-neutrino

if i uses the wrong pluralization it's still english, just objectively wrong

ASCII-only

amazing baba map amirite

Unrelated String

okay yeah fair enough

there is a difference between ungrammatical english and not english to begin with

Redwolf Programs

02:08

But anyway, I don't think verb-first-always was ever a part of katlani since we introduced noun casing

@UnrelatedString But it's deeply subjective

ASCII-only

well see

Unrelated String

which is why i neglected that distinction in my initial statement

ASCII-only

you could just redefine katlani

as "katlani is whatever it is, as currently spoken"

hyper-neutrino

i think we introduced noun casing to allow VSO and VOS and dropping either of them, etc

Unrelated String

6

^

hyper-neutrino

02:09

but the reason I pushed for either verb-first or verb-last is to avoid ambiguity with relative clauses

TBF if we use joiners like the english "who" in "the man who ate the apple ate the fish" then we can sidestep that to some extent

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only That's exactly what it is

Who said it isn't that?

ASCII-only

nobody?

Redwolf Programs

Oh I misread what you said lol

ASCII-only

but i don't believe anybody said it is that, so...

._.

hyper-neutrino

but like in japanese the way you say that is リンゴ(apple) を(obj) 食べた(eat, past) 男(man) は(subj) 魚(fish) を(obj) 食べた(eat, past) which i think is a lot less clunky / nicer to follow than relying on joining relative clauses like in english with "who"

(also avoids the issue of needing different joiners, like "who" doesn't work for non-animate objects, and then you have like, which, that, who, where, etc)

ASCII-only

02:12

ok so i'm kinda nerd so... i just prefer pretending this is a programming languge

and, well

there's a reason programming languages do verb(noun1, noun2, noun3)

or noun1.verb(noun2, noun3). or noun1 noun2 noun3 verb. but rarely (if ever) a mix of them

Redwolf Programs

Indeed there is, but this is not a programming language.

If we have particles indicating the purpose of every word, why would we restrict them to specific places (when it doesn't create other issues)?

ta ma is always the subject, so whether it's before or after the verb doesn't matter

ASCII-only

ok well see

programming languages also have "particles indicating the purpose of every word"

also known as, keyword arguments

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms Now, if the subject is komy pat fara vy lia casa my makai a nimak (warning: half those words are just made up), then you should put it in the normal order

ASCII-only

i guess the main point is, it's a lot nicer when a reader/listener can expect what comes next

Redwolf Programs

Well that's the point of the casing particles

When you hear ta, you know what's coming up. You instantly know the sentence will be SVO or SOV

ASCII-only

02:17

e.g. when a spanish speaker sees ¿ they know a question is coming next.
when an english speaker sees a noun at the start of a sentence they *know* a verb will be next (right?)

hm

i guess..

Redwolf Programs

@ASCII-only Not really...pigs dogs dislike dislike dogs pigs dislike has a lot of nouns followed by nouns

And even verbs followed by verbs

hyper-neutrino

oh i hate that

ASCII-only

well idk man

as i've said before

english sucks

Redwolf Programs

Well this system is very non-englishy

So we're in agreement ;p

ASCII-only

well see

non-englishy, and non-suck

are completely different things

Redwolf Programs

02:19

Ik, ik

That's what the ;p was for

But if we have consistent VSO, noun casing is useless

So a major (and very interesting) aspect of the language is gone

ASCII-only

but see

if we have VSO and VOS

noun casing is still required

Redwolf Programs

But if we have those particles already, why not allow putting the verb in other places?

ASCII-only

c.f. keyword arguments in the programming language analogy.

ok going off on a tangent

but i just had a shitty proglang idea based on that

Redwolf Programs

ta ma fara lia casa is perfectly easy to understand IMO

ASCII-only

a language where the function itself is denoted by a special sigil or keyword (argument) or something

so u can have infix functions, basically for free: (1 ~+ (2 ~+ (~+ 3 4 5)))

Redwolf Programs

02:23

WR: abail (n): House

ASCII-only

> Interjections
> - `aaaaa` - I am in pain

nice.

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms (Since we have no place-words)

WR: ogig (N): Park

ASCII-only

oh also

what's the difference between bai and baia, and hai and haia?

irl the difference would be formality

baia and haia being more informal

Redwolf Programs

Formality, yeah

Or just personal preference

haia/baia are more of a compromise between hai/hiya and bai/biya

lyxal

"Hey so what languages do you speak?" "oh you know, just a farmstead in south Africa"

Redwolf Programs

02:26

Since hiya and biya make no sense with katlani's phonology

ASCII-only

ok yknow

itd be nice to make up mythology for katlani

but otoh thats completely different from making a language so i guess not

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, maybe that can be a later side-project thingy like other orthography

ASCII-only

important question:

what does lani mean.

Redwolf Programs

Words

hyper-neutrino

oh yeah things that cultures or populations have would be interesting as a side-project when this is a bit more stable

ASCII-only

02:29

h m

what is intensification suffix anyway

Unrelated String

i

ASCII-only

i guess it does double as a plural suffix?

no i mean what is intensification

is it like just superlative

Redwolf Programs

lani is plural, lanii is a lot, laniii is a frick ton

ASCII-only

on that note

there should be a word for "frick"

Redwolf Programs

I proposed pxeger when he wasn't looking

ASCII-only

02:30

on another note

there should be an opposite of -i

Redwolf Programs

NOOO we discussed this

ASCII-only

i-

>:DDDDDDD

Redwolf Programs

Pls no -u support...oh wait that's worse

ASCII-only

my genius knows no bounds

Redwolf Programs

aaaaa

ASCII-only

02:33

ok yknow what

Redwolf Programs

WR: srikod (v): To write code

ASCII-only

i have an even better idea

-noi, -noiii etc

Redwolf Programs

WR: golfkod (v): To golf code

ASCII-only

golf as in the sport?

lyxal

@ASCII-only what are those? Language flags or something? :p

Redwolf Programs

02:34

WR: isoshor (n): Esolang

WR: kod (n): Code

lyxal

WR: hyp (n): nerd

Redwolf Programs

WR: kodshor (n): Programming language

ASCII-only

@lyxal random thought: get djmc to implement -v, -vvv etc.

Redwolf Programs

WR: golfshor (n): Golfing language

And I'm done for now :p

ASCII-only

idk tbh

like

whats the point of compound words even tbh

lyxal

02:35

Could someone put the hackmd in the room info

ASCII-only

kod shor spoken quickly vs kodshor

Redwolf Programs

It's pinned

@ASCII-only Well, shor kod

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms can't easily see pins on mobile

Redwolf Programs

Wait no

shor my kod?

Roughly "language of code"

room topic changed to TNB Conlang (katlani): Discussion and usage of katlani, the official™ TNB constructed language (hackmd). (no tags)

Frick

It parses right in the message, but not in the description

room topic changed to TNB Conlang (katlani): Discussion and usage of katlani, the official™ TNB constructed language (hackmd: hackmd.io/@somebody-cares/HJPHsHcht/edit). (no tags)

lyxal

How do you pluralise a word?

ASCII-only

02:37

ah... might want to explain how my works in the hackmd

Redwolf Programs

-i

@ASCII-only One step ahead of you :p

> - Possession is indicated by appending my and the possessing noun after the possessee (e.g., o my ma is "my cat")

ASCII-only

stupid idea time

lyxal

And finally, how do you append something like -ing to a word?

ASCII-only

ny for my except reversed order of possessor and possessee

@lyxal tense particles

~~the one thing this shor did right~~

tbh

why is the language called "chat words"

when there's a word for "language"

i guess we'll never know

Redwolf Programs

Okay changed it to kod (noun for code), iso (adj for odd/strange), and golf (noun and probably verb, meaning "to try to make short", we can say stuff like kod my golf and [sport] my golf)

ASCII-only

02:41

hm.

is lia = to?

Redwolf Programs

Roughly

Usually to or for

ASCII-only

implying, it can be applied to any verb (where it makes sense to apply it)?

lyxal

@ASCII-only so how would you turn frick into fricking? pxegersu?

Redwolf Programs

Well, ni pxgr, if pxgr was frick

But pxgr is taken

So I guess frik maybe?

lyxal

7 hours ago, by Redwolf Programs

WR: pxeger: "frick"

I'm just going off that.

ASCII-only

02:43

btw

is there even continuous tense yet

-ii should be for continuous tense tbh

Redwolf Programs

No, but without any tense it's close enough to continuous

ASCII-only

pasii, niii, fyii

ok but then

what about past and future continuous

Redwolf Programs

Who needs those? :p

ASCII-only

;_;

Redwolf Programs

We'd decided on a very simple tense system for now

hyper-neutrino

02:44

i forgot to mention this explicitly but ^ we do need things like continuous as explicit tense modifiers or adverbs or whatever

Redwolf Programs

Why?

hyper-neutrino

well otherwise how do we do past continuous

or do we just not

ASCII-only

just not

i guess

Redwolf Programs

We could add a continuous adverb I guess

ASCII-only

we could do the big overkill

ok nvm

Unrelated String

02:45

yeah i feel like aspect isn't mandatory

ASCII-only

i just realized pasii would be distant(x2) past

Redwolf Programs

Six tenses seems like it'd be plenty

lyxal

WR: rgksp (v): frick

Redwolf Programs

pas, ni, fy, pas [c], ni [c]/[c]/, fy [c]

@lyxal No x

ASCII-only

pasc

rgkp?

all consonants

Redwolf Programs

02:47

It'd need to be rgksp maybe

ASCII-only

not hard to pronounce at all

reksh?

i guess that's missing g...

Redwolf Programs

And no e

ASCII-only

riksh*

idk. what's the difference between i and y anyway

Redwolf Programs

rygyksp maybe?

@ASCII-only One's ee and one's the german one

WR: rak (n): Place

lyxal

Is <noun> kai my equivalent to y'all are <noun>?

Redwolf Programs

02:50

No, si kai su [noun]

fara [imp] ka lia rak sos forli

ASCII-only

i had another bad idea!

i should just see how many pop culture references i can fit in

lyxal

Well this is probably incorrectly arranged, but I've been meaning to say this for several hours now: si kai su rgkspi hypi

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms (Go to someplace sad)

@lyxal no gust. si ka su baka susi.

lyxal

That's not what I wanted to convey

Redwolf Programs

Oh, sorry. no ka sus

lyxal

02:54

I wanted to convey that y'all are fricking nerds

Redwolf Programs

That's what you did

lyxal

Making a conlang instead of code golfing smh :p

Redwolf Programs

I was replying by saying I didn't like that and you are a very sus baka

hyper-neutrino

are negative nouns just "prepend no"

ASCII-only

hm

tbh

i feel like i'd have preferred if nerd was an adjective

Redwolf Programs

02:55

The way lyxal used it it actually is

lyxal

Welp I'm done with katlani. That's all I wanted to say lol

Redwolf Programs

A better translation would've been "Y'all are nerdy fricks"

Which is uh...

ASCII-only

o_o

Redwolf Programs

We need an imperative adverb

ASCII-only

well

rgkspi is the verb, no

wait no

2 verbs???

Redwolf Programs

02:57

If it's a verb the syntax would need to be much different

I don't think we even have syntax for that yet

ASCII-only

@lyxal ok how about a conlang that is also a proglang

Redwolf Programs

WR: imi (adv): Imperative

fara imi ka lia rak sos: Go somewhere

fara imi ka lia pat rgksp kai su nimaki: Go frick yourselves

fobl imi lia ma ta ka su o my ka: Give me your cat

But anyway, it looks like there aren't many people left, so I'll hold off on making up more stuff until tomorrow when there's more people here

I might've gone a little overboard with adding words and stuff

Unrelated String

no such thing

pxeger

07:50

@lyxal that's my name backwards.. is this karma for the vaiksal thing? lol

lyxal

@pxeger perhaps... :p

pxeger

room topic changed to TNB Conlang (katlani): Discussion and usage of katlani, the official™ TNB constructed language. github.com/tnb-conlang/tnb-conlang (no tags)

sorry about the GitHub permissions confusion everyone, I thought you'd be able to edit it by default

anyway now we can use it properly

lyxal

08:08

@pxeger they do be hard to configure lol

Ginger Industries

13:10

hello :)

Ginger Industries

13:24

fobl imi lia ma ta ka su abail my o my ka

@RedwolfPrograms For the word list updating bot, should I make a new one or just use GingerBot?

Wezl - a cautionary tale

13:43

fobl imi kai lia ma su lan my o my kai

si lan my o my ma su "l*nna"

gus o my ma su marbli

Ginger Industries

"give [direct] yall [indirect] me [subject] you [direct] word [owned by] cat [owned by] yall"
You want to give us a word that our cat made up for us?

we have a cat?

Wezl - a cautionary tale

the o should be oi

give me your cats' names

Ginger Industries

oh

Wezl - a cautionary tale

but I used lan for name because I don't have another word for it

Ginger Industries

@Wezl-acautionarytale si lan my mi ta "Ginger Industries"

I am amused by the fact that the adjective for "slow" is nogolfy

Wezl - a cautionary tale

13:49

si/su not si/ta btw

How do I say "My cat likes to eat plastic"?

I can't say "to eat"

Ginger Industries

@Wezl-acautionarytale hmmmmmmmmmm

we do not have a word for plastic

one sec

Wezl - a cautionary tale

do we have a word for trees?

Ginger Industries

@Wezl-acautionarytale plastic is izl ktomish

@Wezl-acautionarytale abail my komy

Wezl - a cautionary tale

because my cat specifically likes to eat plastic Christmas trees

Ginger Industries

tree = "house of monkey"

Wezl - a cautionary tale

13:51

@GingerIndustries nice :)

Ginger Industries

plastic = "dangerous food"

Wezl - a cautionary tale

we should probably have a single word for tree, but I like that phrase

Ginger Industries

Game of Thrones ft. the House of Monkey

WR: and (pt): and

Wezl - a cautionary tale

but my cat specifically likes to eat non-dangerous things, like dead packaged cat food and paper

@GingerIndustries we already have "a" for and

Ginger Industries

@Wezl-acautionarytale huh

it's not in the docs

what part of speech?

apparently conjunction

Wezl - a cautionary tale

13:55

I can't find it in SE search because a and and are both too common

Ginger Industries

so if si is si [thing1] [thing2] does a work the same way?

Wezl - a cautionary tale

14 hours ago, by Redwolf Programs

WR (old): a (conj): And

Ginger Industries

well si is is, which makes it a conjunction as well IG

Wezl - a cautionary tale

we use si as a verb

Ginger Industries

so "me and my cat" would be a mi o my mi?

Wezl - a cautionary tale

13:57

15 hours ago, by DLosc

Proposal: "and" should be similar to "too"

Ginger Industries

I can't find "too"

Wezl - a cautionary tale

I assumed it would be ma a o my ma but that makes sense

16 hours ago, by Redwolf Programs

WR: ama: Too (in the meaning of "me too" or "in addition")

Ginger Industries

oh

my rgksp laptop's bottom keeps unscrewing

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