last day (16 days later) » 

15:29
59
A: Extracting work from people who are on PIPs but who we also cannot fire?

Matthew GaiserYou want favours from those you tried to get rid of but couldn't. You openly admit that these people would be out the door but for company hiring rules. You know it. They know it. Everyone knows that a PIP is just paperwork collection for future termination, so in their position I would be puttin...

PIPS are not always paperwork collection for termination. I've used them several times to turn employees around successfully. You're right, though, a PIP without actionable consequences is pointless.
It comes down to very honest conversations, and it requires significant trust on the part of the person going on the PIP. When I execute a PIP, it's with specific measurables and deliverables with checkpoints along the way. When it's successfully completed, it's delivered as a clean slate, and the importance is adhering to that. It can't be used against someone in the future (emotionally/mentally). I make my PIPs about a changing of habits rather than just a "return to productivity". It's easy to tell half way through a PIP what the end outcome is going to be.
@Hilmar: No doubt. It's a common practice. My comment was a suggestion that it's not universal.
@JoelEtherton Its so close to universal that the difference isn't worth considering on the receiving end. If you get a PIP its in your best interest to just put all your effort into finding the next job.
@GabeSechan: That's a very cynical viewpoint. I'd love to see any case studies or metrics you could cite as evidence of your assertion. Also, nothing will change unless people act to change it. This isn't how I treat PIPs, and I would encourage anyone faced with a PIP to evaluate it fully in their own own best interest. Even if it is being used as a mechanism to put someone out of an organization, it's still an opportunity to learn and be better.
@JoelEtherton It's a realistic viewpoint. The company just said they don't think you're good enough. At best, they think you need extreme improvement. At worst, they're just documenting the reason they're going to fire you. Why would you fight an uphill battle rather than join another employer who will be more appreciative of your time and energy? If they really wanted to make the relationship work, it would have been feedback rather than a formal PIP.
@JoelEtherton The fact that they felt the need to give you a formal notice that they don't think this is working is sufficient in and of itself that your immediate priority is to find a place that respects your contributions. Move on. Because even if you get through the PIP, odds are you'll have a stigma in that company at least until you get a new manager, if not permanently.
@GabeSechan: Because uphill battles are the ones that actually grow you. Running to a new employer just drags your problems along with you. I've executed a good number of PIPs successfully, and those people still work on my teams. It doesn't always work out that way. A person gets out of it what they put into it. This is becoming a chat worthy back-and-forth. I'll gladly have a conversation with you to change your perspective on the topic.
15:29
@JoelEtherton A person's goal isn't to work at a place to "grow". It's to make money to live. If they agree that there's a failing on their part, they can address it just as easily at the next place, with lower stress, fewer risks, and a much greater chance of success without an organization biased against them. There's no conversation to be had here- it is NEVER in a person's best interest to stay once PIPed. They may have to financially if they can't find a new job quickly, but they should still leave as quickly as possible even if they make it through the process.
@JoelEtherton If I was your employee and you gave me a PIP, I'd stand up, shake your hand, and say I quit effective immediately. Of course I have significant savings. But the PIP process is NEVER a help to the employee. If you actually want to help the employee, a frank conversation and talk about how to improve works. A PIP means that their career there is as good as done. The fact you felt the need for a formal process rather than a conversation just seals the deal.
@GabeSechan: No it doesn't. If you were my employee we would already have had that frank discussion several times. The conversation would begin with the statement that the PIP is a clear indication in a failure of leadership combined with an inability to meet expectations. The PIP is a clear setting of expectations for both sides of the conversation, and the items are there to hold leadership just as accountable for the progress of it.
Our paperwork is always kept up to date. If I feel an employee will not be successful in completing a PIP, we don't need to execute one. We only execute a PIP when we believe the employee is worth saving because it is a massive time investment on our end. I only work places where I feel I can grow. Every engineer on my teams can work just about any place they want. They're here because they're growing in skills and opportunity.
 
3 hours later…
18:20
If we had the conversation several times, then why the paperwork? Just fire them already. Sorry, the PIP just means you're looking to legally cover your ass about it. 99% of the time, the PIP isn't meant to be fixable. And in that small percentage it is, you're still always better leaving. You may not want it to be this way, but it is. You've actually more likely chased more people away with them than you've helped, even if you mean them in the best possible way.
PIP is just firing a person in slow motion. And an employee has to treat it that way for his own sake.
And "a failure of leadership combined with an inability to meet expectations" is bullshit. Would the leadership be fired if the employee fails to achieve the PIP? Of course not. So its not a failure of leadership in your company's eyes.
 
3 hours later…
21:19
@GabeSechan Gabe, you are extremely stubborn. You've got completely stuck with your imagination of what a PIP must be, instead of trying to hear about some real world experiences. Have another example: I was on PIP for a while, I pulled through, and have stayed successfully for a while afterwards (I left the company soon after for unrelated reasons, so hard to tell how it would work long-term). It wasn't really a bad experience, having well-set experiences and a short feedback loop.
@GabeSechan: You get out what you put in. To be frank, if someone behaved as you described when I was delivering a PIP, I'd let you go immediately without any qualms.

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