Creationism vs. ☐

BeatMe

12:23

@dancek, what has probability to do with macroevolution?

TRiG

@BeatMe The whole concept of "microevolution" and "macroevolution" as distinct processes is ridiculous.

They're the same thing. Exactly the same.

BeatMe

don't tell that me ;)

wax eagle

I'm not qualified to argue this (I haven't looked at biology very hard), but i think the issue most of us have is that we don't see adaptation (microevolution) leading all the way to speciation (macroevolution)

BeatMe

you don't see a big difference between a baby and an adult? (my example from that question)

wax eagle

@BeatMe certainly a big difference, but those are different states within a species. The question in my mind is whether its possible for a creature to make so many adaptations that they are actually a new species.

BeatMe

12:31

it's the same with species

El'endia Starman

@BeatMe: Do you know about gene duplication?

BeatMe

if you would take a picture of each of your father and his father and so on, you would see a minimal change of each ancestor

evolution does not say that someday your grandgrandgrad....father was suddenly an ape

there is a minimal difference (or sometimes none) between each generation

Caleb

← 12 messages moved from Christianity

BeatMe

and if we look at our 400th, 401th and 402th ancestor, the change will be minimal

but if we take our 1st, 100th, 1000th and 10000th, you'll see a lot of differences

Caleb

→ 1 message moved to Christianity

BeatMe

12:36

and I don't know the exact numbers, but at one point you'll have another species

wax eagle

@BeatMe my question from a few week ago still stands, "Has this been observed?"

BeatMe

but you can't pin it down to a last one of the neanderthalers and suddenly a homo sapiens

you can't observe it

there is nothing but small change to observe

wax eagle

@BeatMe doesn't this claim to be science? how is something that is unobservable fall into the category of anything other than faith?

BeatMe

the same you can't observe at what time you are a adulescent and when exactly you became an adult

wax eagle

@BeatMe I'm not asking for observation of each step along the way. I'm looking for observation at specific points. If I take a picture of myself when I am 5, 15, 25....and every 10 years there will be noticable differences. We should be able to do the same with observations about an isolated population

El'endia Starman

12:40

I thought the question here was not when the change happened, but if it happened?

wax eagle

@ElendiaStarman exactly.

BeatMe

how are the fossils not observations at different stages in time?

wax eagle

@BeatMe do you have evidence that those species did not exist at the creation of the world and are just extinct, not ancestors of current species?

BeatMe

well, that might be one explanation ;)

wax eagle

@BeatMe also not saying its mine

BeatMe

12:47

but I don't think we need to use supernatural powers to explain the modell of different species if evolution if we can explain it a natural way thats well proven ;)

especially if several different branches of scientist support this theory (for example dna analysis)

we share most of our dna with our parents, sisters and close relatives

the more far you go back, the less difference you can observe, but it still less than 1% among all humans

if you compare other species you'll see a difference too, its bigger, but still species we think evolved from each other share more dna than other species that are unrelated

you can say that this is intentional made, but evolution actually explained it

BeatMe

13:13

And I don't know if you have seen it, but this picture is my absolute favourite, as it does show the transition from one to another species (say our ape-cousin to human)

wax eagle

@BeatMe I understand that whole idea of transition. I'm more looking for evidence of snap shots along the way. I can pick out a red word, a purple word and a blue word from that text.

BeatMe

where is the purple?

wax eagle

distinction is purple to me

the point is not where it starts, its that it changes and that we can observe a distinct change over time

my point is that if at some point there is a change, then over time we should be able to observe distinct change through snap shots

and we should be able to do it in an experiment, and it should be repeatable with identical environmental factors.

BeatMe

do you agree that wolves and dogs are different species?

wax eagle

@BeatMe not by the definitions given here of species. (they can be bred)

BeatMe

13:28

so according to you and this domestic dogs and foxes on the other side are not different species, because they can be bred?

macalester.edu/~montgomery/GrayWolfExtra.html

wax eagle

@BeatMe was that not the definition of species used earlier in this very room?

BeatMe

i don't know of any definition

if you look at that we can see that bears can be bred from the common ancestor of a dog or fox

and cats can be bred from their common ancestor

wax eagle

how about wikipedia

> A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.

BeatMe

well thats evolution?

i don't think dogs can interbreed with wolves or foxes and produce fertile offspring

TRiG

@waxeagle People, get Plato out of your heads. There is no "ideal wolf" or "ideal dog" or "ideal fox" or "ideal bear". Ideals don't exist. The real world is messy. All categories -- all categories -- have fuzzy edges.

2

wax eagle

13:32

@TRiG not sure what you mean by that....I'm not suggesting there is an ideal wolf...

BeatMe

altough both dog and foxes share the same common ancestor

TRiG

@waxeagle But you're trying to find a neat and tidy definition for "species". There isn't one. Fuzzy edges, y'know?

BeatMe

;)

wax eagle

@TRiG i see what you are saying. I'm content with "can breed together and produce fertile offspring"

TRiG

@waxeagle And even that isn't neat and tidy. What does "can" mean? Will bread in captivity but not in the wild? Won't actually bread, but can reproduce by in vitro fertalisation?

Different breads of dog could be different species by some of these definitions. Irish wolfhound + chiwawa, anyone?

And what about ring species?

wax eagle

13:37

@TRiG good point :) biology is a seriously challenging subject, lots of complexity...one of the reaons I didn't touch it in college :)

BeatMe

Ring species

In biology, a ring species is a connected series of neighboring populations, each of which can interbreed with closely sited related populations, but for which there exist at least two "end" populations in the series, which are too distantly related to interbreed, though there is a potential gene flow between each "linked" species. Such non-breeding, though genetically connected, "end" populations may co-exist in the same region thus closing a "ring". Ring species provide important evidence of evolution in that they illustrate what happens over time as populations genetically diverge, an...

lol, didn't knew that before ;)

@waxeagle it's just that the common ancestor of wolves and foxes did have fertile offspring that bred with each other and formed our known wolf and fox, altough these two cannot breed together

that all is small change (microevolution) that produced two different species (you might say macroevolution to it ;))

wax eagle

@BeatMe intriguing

@BeatMe and this common ancestor was? We seem to have a lot of end points and not many middle or starting points :)

BeatMe

it's extinct

wax eagle

@BeatMe understood, fossil?

BeatMe

;)

fossilation is a different topic, we don't even have fossils of the common ancestor of chimps and homos

wax eagle

13:44

@BeatMe doesn't that make you go hmmmm

BeatMe

no, i mentioned DNA earlier

and everything we know about dna and evolution does support each other

wax eagle

provided fossils form over time, shouldn't we have fossils from at least some of these common ancestors?

@BeatMe right I understand that, common genetic code etc. those things I understand

BeatMe

Evidence of common descent

of living things has been discovered by scientists working in a variety of fields over many years. This evidence has demonstrated and verified the occurrence of evolution and provided a wealth of information on the natural processes by which the variety and diversity of life on Earth developed. This evidence supports the modern evolutionary synthesis, the current scientific theory that explains how and why life changes over time. Evolutionary biologists document the fact of common descent: making testable predictions, testing hypotheses, and developing theories that illustrate and descr...

thats long article about that

wax eagle

@BeatMe good deal :) will take a look

BeatMe

fossils not only form over time but only in special cases, thats the crux ;)

and here is the description of dna studies of dogs

but after reading it again the paragraph above might be better ;)

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