@BruceAlderman You said "I'm left believing God can't stop [evil]." but do you somehow believe that he still can destroy body and soul (presumably of someone evil at his discretion and time of choosing), or do you believe that He could send legions of angels to this Earth and destroy what is evil (as that is supposed to happen in Revelation at the time of the end)?

@svidgen I get what you're saying and I've heard and read it plenty. Been a studious Christian my whole life, until now. What I'm saying is that I no longer buy it. In hindsight, which is 20/20 they say, I felt no more alive then, when I believed, than I do now. In fact, the reverse is true for some issues. I feel like I have more control of my life on some things now then I did before.

@svidgen But this does sound nice. That's why I've always admired the pageantry and ceremony of the RCC. I would want to do those things to feel closer to my God, but that has never happened. I have bemoaned for more than ten years that God is not real in my life. I'm tired of waiting for God to be involved in my life. I give up on waiting for that and now I'm moving on.

@fredsbend that gets back to the dark night sort of thing. An overarching spiritual state that can encompass a symphony of doubt. Largely why the saints and the Church are so strict on detachment from feelings. The spiritual life has nothing to do with feelings at the core. They're decoration at best.

Also why it's so strongly advised to have a spiritual advisor or mentor. These states are normal. Most folks pass through it much better on the other side. Very few remain without consolation to the end.

A good advisor will keep you focused and reminded of the fact that most of your spiritual growth happens when you feel abandoned.

Or When the very existence of God feels like a sick joke.

@svidgen I'm still very receptive to God. I suppose I might come back one day, but it will take an event of some kind.

@fredsbend had you a spiritual advisor, I have a feeling they'd ask, "receptive to God as He is? Or God as you want Him to be?"

@fredsbend If you have not found what you are looking for maybe its time to start looking somewhere else. I know a guy who goes to a church that everyone makes fun of and makes up all kinds of terrible stories about that are not true. He tells me it is nothing like what those other guys say it is like and that it is awesome.

I think you know what church I am talking about. If mainstream Christianity is not giving you what you need, maybe its time to look outside the box. There is more out there, you just have to give it an honest chance.

@Nelson Plus one for guts to try it, but I'm very familiar with LDS, have attended two services in the past, read a good deal of literature and Mormon scripture, and still do not find it appealing. Sorry. Converting to LDS would only complicate my current issues with Christianity.

@svidgen I'm receptive to any god that seems real, and I don't think that's too much to ask.

@fredsbend Hmm ... depends what you mean by "seems real."

This is a good opportunity to slowly segue back onto topic, though, because it gets at the heart of original sin: Attempting to possess divinity. Attempting to make God and godliness yours, rather than to be who you are and let God do as God wishes.

The fall brings to light man's innate tendency to forgot God as God is and render unto himself the criterion for good and evil. To take godliness for himself. It's disobedience to God and dissatisfaction for God's way and being.

Regardless of whether you read creation as literally history, it's at least also a poetic allegory. It defines God on a primitive level for us. He is the creature of both the primordial chaos (water) and the final order (land). And He is the giver of life (life).

And it shows on a primitive level how God seems to fuel the world with chaotic energy, and prunes it in stages into something beautiful. A process that's repeated through the Bible repeatedly. God spreads His spirit in abundance and trims the fat.

A process that's mirrored everywhere. It's how evolution works. It's how chaotic matter forms stars, which eventually form heavier stars, which form solar systems, and galaxies, and eventually life.

It's how thinking happens -- a massacre of inputs and signals get filtered into a single signal that we perceive as "a thought."

It's how learning happens.

It's all the same thing. Over and over with different materials.

And it all requires a lot of selfless energy be thrown at every "possibility", with the knowledge that some "possibilities" will fail the test.

And there's more to it (creation) than that. Genesis reveals a great deal. God doesn't become God by conquer other "gods" as the pagan gods were believed to. God doesn't create from pre-existing stuff. He creates from nothing. He created not only the matter of the world, but the very light. He created the heavens themselves; He doesn't just dwell in them. Etc.

And after God creates everything, establishes perfect order, He creates a creature in His image. A creature with freedom. A creature that's capable of love. ... And that creature says, "nope. not good enough." ... And that's where we've been ever since. When we're not directly trying to be God, we're trying to make God operate on our terms.

Genesis is the story of who God is. And who we are.

... and finally, back to the topic, I think it's a mistake and a distraction to think the creation accounts in Genesis accounts have anything to do with literal history.

The spiritual truths stand strong, and possibly stronger, without pretending Genesis is about science or history.

It's simpler to let the Biblical creation accounts tell us the spiritual truths they're intended to reveal than to fuss over whether it informs our astronomy or biology or prehistory, or whatever. And it's simpler to let scientists, historians, astronomers, biologists, and archaeologists fuss over the details of creation and prehistory than to worry about infracting upon religious beliefs.

And, it's not only simpler this way, it's more free and truthful. We're not stuck trying to contort or compromise our understanding of Truth in any field to fit our understanding in another. Truth is what it is. And by recognizing Genesis as a religious book with pretty loose ties to history, we're free to extract the spiritual fruit from it without conflict from other areas, areas that are also within the scope of God's truth.

And the other "areas" are not only within the scope of God's command, but the study thereof actually reveals, mirrors, and pays homage to God's creation process in their own processes when we're not trying to contort one or the other.

@BruceAlderman I'm skimming the wiki on UMC, and I've gotta say, with a handful of exception ... you guys are just Catholic.

Skimming through this, I didn't quite catch what the apostolic link to the Anglican? Church was? Other than that, most of the other beliefs I had a chance to glance at, if they're accurate on the wiki, sound Catholic. The only major point of contention, other than the lack of direct communion with the Church, would be the Eucharistic beliefs, which is admittedly the most important aspect of Catholic belief.

Cool.

@fredsbend What are some of your reservations about the LDS faith?

@Nelson 1st, I don't believe Smith's testimony. 2nd, I don't think certain theologies can be reconciled with certain Biblical texts and certain historical facts. 3rd, I don't like the culture that emphasizes cookie cutter, do gooder personalities.

A little more than reservations, I think.

What do you mean by cookie cutter, do gooder personalities?

It's hard to describe. From what I see, there is a very predictable life path that a good Mormon should take.

I don't mean the go to church stuff and all that jazz.

It's more like just the aspects of your life.

First, good Mormons are expected to be intelligent and do exceptionally well in school.

After school, they are to do their mission.

After that, they are to work hard to be successful in business, where the primary goal is ownership and wealth.

After that is marriage to a good Mormon woman, who has had a hum-drum life of basically waiting to be married and pregnant.

After that is the expectation to get started on kids and have a good deal of them too.

The LDS sub-culture greatly encourages these things, not that their bad. I'm just not terribly interested in a 1950's-esque thing where my peers judge me based on them.

However, I have contemplated joining for the business connections, but that just seems wrong.

Plus, I don't think I could get away with it for too long.

My wife is sitting next to and she, liked your marriage statement. First of all the things you said are all good things that it would be wise if everybody strived to do them. Wouldn't you want all of those things for your kids? Positive pressure is not a bad thing.

@fredsbend Many people believe that we are forced to do many of those things (missions, tithing) My parents wanted me to serve a mission because they new the growth that comes to someone who serves, but it was still up to me if I went or not. I have friends who never chose to serve a mission and they are still faithful members of the church. In hindsight most of them wish they had gone.

I live in Canada and was sent to Wisconsin on my 2 year mission and learned the language of Hmong. (I had never heard of Hmong either) I have been home for 10 years now and have not used the language once since returning. Most people would say that that was a waist of time, becoming fluent in a language and then never using it again. Serving mission was the best decision of my life and I would not change a thing about it.

Some members of all faiths, I would assume do things to be seen of men. We are human and I believe that is part of our nature, wanting people to think we are good. However we are taught not to do them to impress others but to do them because that is what God wants you to do.

@fredsbend Would you rather belong to a church with extremely high achievable standards, an unpaid ministry so that the members lead the church, that make us stretch to improve our lives and the lives of others? Or a church that does not require anything from its members, just come and put a little money in the plate and all is good? Every aspect of my faith helps me be a better person. It is all there but it is still up to me and the choices I make. It changes lives.

On a side note on the topic of Creation. In your reading of some of the LDS standard works of scripture, did you take to time to read the Peril of Great Price? It contains the Book of Moses and Abraham, both of which go into greater detail on the creation account and the happenings in the pre-existence. I could shed some greater light on what you are looking for. Here is a link

The last part of Chapter 3 and all of chapter 4.

Also the beginning of the Book of Moses, speak of the creation specifically.

@Nelson Actually, no, I never read any of PGP; only a few things about it. I read the first four or five of BoM and other selected parts and maybe a 1/4 of D&C, here and there, at people's suggestions.

That does sound quite interesting though. The pre-existence was always interesting to me. I'm also quite interested in creation myths of any variety.