12:05 AM
2 hours later…
2:09 AM
same functions & usage as the other house. Chemistry may be a function sourse for actiions & reactions. How they were identified, selected, placed to properly function at correct times or to not function (1000s to billions of switches). Nothing man has created has been done w/o having the ability to identify a purpose for it, knowledge & understanding of potential uses & limitations regarding your pupose & knowledge & understanding of all thats needed to make & assemble it for it to function
@fredsbend but you're operating at a physical, finite level. If Christ crucified does indeed divinize man's own suffering and death, it completely reframes them. It reduces the true scope of evil to only those things with eternal implications.
Categorically refusing God becomes the real scope of evil. All other evils, while still evil, may be construed in the divine plan of love for good.
properly. Now maybe if there were only 2 or even 5 body types for species with several subspecies each in existence it might by some huge stretch of our imagination it could have been possible by Ev processes. However, multiplied by millions of extremely diverse species, not possible. Essentially, Ev is akin to blind new-born babies getting together & creating houses, care, ships, airplanes, space shuttles & stations, engines, etc. simply by throwing things around. It would never happen, period
2:40 AM
@fredsbend : God lays out reasoning for whats happening on earth in the Bible. 1st, good & evil always existed. However, to be & remain perfect He couldn't allow evil to exist in Heaven (why the devil was thrown out). If God took us directly to Heaven He could explain what evil is but we would not be able to fully grasp the true danger of what comes with evil. So God made earth separate from Himself do that man could experience both good & evil. Then God wrote the Bible to tell us why He did all
@fredsbend I should also add, the concept of omnipotence is generally misrepresented. It presumes that God can do an unqualified "anything", be that anything in the realm of reality or not. This is especially problematic in pondering the "problem of evil."
It's fairly easy to spot if you're talking about physical anti-realities and nonsensical phrases in general: Can God create a rock which God cannot lift? Can God create a square circle? Peel off the layers and you find these phrases devoid of meaning. They're self-contradictions. Demanding that God be able to circumvent himself or His rationality is meaningless, like demanding that God be able to make 3 more like 4.
Or knit, in the literal sense, the forms of dog and cat together. Doesn't make sense. The english is grammatically correct and the sentence is fully parseable, but it's meaningless.
I often suspect we encounter the same problem in insisting that a loving God would create a world without evil. Without evil, what is goodness? Without pain, what is pleasure. Without suffering, what is joy? Without vice, what is virtue?
And these high-level comparisons may be weak at some obvious level, but they illustrate the point of the mystery. If our God is love, as we believe Him to be, He's not bound to devoid the world of evil if said evil is necessary for His love, our good, to be manifest. It's a possibility of which we, lowest of God's spiritual creations, must confess ignorance.
that He did, including why He chose certain people, while letting many go their way to show the wise whats wrong with the many paths that man takes. You might say God is looking for a few good wise men whom will turn & learn from God instead of man, not to say He won't save others, but only under certain circumstances, judging by their hearts. The point is experience is the best teacher. However, if the world was a nice place or paradise hardly anyone would turn to God. Most like most would say
leave me alone, I feel great. I'm busy enjoying myself. Why are you bothering me? Even as evil as the world is few ever genuinely turn to seek God, let alone seek to get to know Him on a personal level. Instead, you find that many laugh at & make fun of anyone who believes God exists & even moreso they mock those who devote their lives, time & energy seek to know God. There are many here who think that life is but a joke & they won't be changing any time soon. And, God does interact on behalf of
those who believe in Him at times of His choosing. The people living on this earth are living on borrowed time. He who started it all has every intention of ending it all on His terms. All the signs given 1000s of yrs ago in the Bible are now in line with & point to what the Bible has said all along will be the end=times. Again, God can't make a mistake & He never will. God is calling all men to Himself but only a few are going to answer & fullow Him. The mob rules now but it is God who rules
3:22 AM
over His chosen (those who will know that God's righteousness is far better to live for than anything the world could offer) forever at the end of all evil on Judgment Day. God is saying through Jesus, "Do you want to live in this mess with no hope or do want to live in the most perfect place that could ever exist, never to see evil ever again, a place where even rooms are larger than a universe? Its up to us but we are 1 day closer to death & it can end at any moment w/o notice for each of us.
3 hours later…
6:46 AM
@fredsbend The problem of evil is probably the greatest challenge to the Christian faith. There are many academic solutions to this problem, but I'm not sure there are any real answers. This is something I've struggled with from time to time.
@svidgen I don't understand this sentence: When we permit evil, we're "rightly" respecting each other's freedom. In what sense is it ever considered "right" to permit evil to respect others' freedom? Isn't the very notion of justice rooted in the the idea that we don't permit people to use their freedom to commit evil acts?
We have laws forbidding people from harming others. We have a court system to punish those who don't follow the laws. We have prisons to keep people out of society if they show they can't be trusted.
3 hours later…
10:06 AM
@BruceAlderman : For over 45 yrs I studied the entire Bible, parts many times. I read this verse: (ESV) Prov 30:5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. So I kept asking Jesus to show me how this is so. 1 day Jesus showed me how to find out if its true & how to prove it. Little by little I realized the whole Bible goes together, woven like a seamless garment, so much so that it made my hair stand on end & like I was hit by a truck. While the
Biblie writers were inspired by God He had to have been the author through Jesus just as it is written in Jn 1:1-5. In the Bible God has declared the end from the beginning (Is 46:10) which is impossible unless you know everything that will happen, not only when specific prophecies were written for the future but for everything that happens btwn the prophecy & its fulfillment 1000s of yrs later. Jesus didn't have access to the whole OT when He was here but He knew the whole OT (shown in
His teaching & by what the Apostles wrote in the other books & the NT didn't exist when Jesus was here. Jesus is the only 1 in history who stated, "I am the way, the truth & the life & no can know God w/o Him. Either was just plain crazy or He came from God. I found that He was telling the truth). Since this is true then everything He said is also true & from God. No one else in history ever spoke like He did. Again, He couldn't do what He did unless He knew the whole OT (not only did He not
10:26 AM
have access to the whole OT but there were no research tools or concordances, etc. like we have now).Neither did the Apostles have access to the whole OT nor did they have the research tools that are now available. However, the failure of many is that they never nor do they follow Jesus & the Apostle's directions for knowing Jesus on personal level & for understanding the Bible nor how to follow it. Those of whom do not follow the directions will mostly see little evidence that can convince them
10:50 AM
to me (and i am sure, to others), words are just words - the more time since they are written, the more interpretations and biases that affect them. You have to understand, I am skeptical of God, heaven and hell - I see the Bible as a very valid historical text (on the level as Newton's Principia for sciences).
4 hours later…
2:26 PM
@BruceAlderman I meant to clarify that and forgot. The original line should have been more clearly contrasted with God's permissiveness of one's own liberty: when our parents, friends, neighbors, colleagues, government, etc infringe on our liberty, we call this evil. We call it "good" when they leave us some liberty to do evil. Precisely the opposite of our expectations of God.
We attempt to prevent egregious evils, to take away liberty in some extreme cases. But we do this not by restriction, but by punishment. We find the thought abhorrent to prevent an evil by imprisoning folks who might do wrong. And doesn't God take similar measures? He dangles hell and heaven in front of us. He values liberty. As we do.
Maybe that's not much more clear. But I think it's clear we have a double standard. We want liberty. We demand privacy. And when we get caught in this "problem of evil" dilemma, I think we tend to think it wouldn't harm us or our liberty, prestige, power, individuality, etc for God to have just made a world without sin.
Even though we can see the things we crave are clearly infracted upon when any other power imposed strict restrictions.
Similarly, a "nature" without decay and death is restrictive. It's prison before the crime. It's a lack of liberty. It's giving the kids in your classroom an assignment on which none of them can fail or do poorly. If there's no liberty to fail, there's no point. And we'd rightly see it as an outrage.
3:32 PM
@Amaterasu Part of that Historical record is the account of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1000's if not more witnessed his death. There were over 500 witnesses who saw him as a resurrected being. In any earthly court of law, one witness's testimony is all that is needed to convict any one of a crime. Over 500 witnesses in this case. There is evidence of divine intervention all around. One just has to have a little bit of faith, and they can see.
Holiness requires the possibility of unholiness. A possibility necessarily realized in human and angelic liberty.
So can Jesus, frankly. As odd as that sounds. But the forty days in the desert were precisely that. The death other cross was also that.
@svidgen What you say makes sense. And I'd rather have liberty and the possibility of evil, decay, and death than to not have free will at all. But when I see the suffering of innocent people, it's sometimes hard to justify.
I have a 4-year-old that we adopted through the foster care system. His biological parents were heavy drug users. His father was killed in a fight with the police. His mother and her new boyfriend abused him physically (and probably sexually).
He's a sweet and smart kid, but he's already experienced more trauma than most adults ever will. He's always on his guard, ready to fight back in self defense at the smallest provocation. He gets into a state where he tries to, in my wife's words, "rip your face off," and it's hard to know what triggers will push him into that state.
3:48 PM
@BruceAlderman A lack of real encounters that aren't easily explained by something natural. Not to attack yours, when you were a kid in your room, but that really doesn't mean anything and you have no real evidence that it was the Christian God or even anything at all. Further, such feelings have many natural explanations.
3:58 PM
@svidgen Since we're already so far off topic, I'll go ahead and answer this. I grew up in the United Methodist Church (sort of--my parents weren't regular attenders, but we always went on Christmas and Easter). I drifted away from organized religion after some bad experiences in college, but then wanted to find a church home after I was on my own. The UMC seemed the most comfortable fit.
Fortunately, he's still quite young. The child is a resilient thing. He'll come through just fine, so long as you are there to love him.
But I know what you mean. Just reading your post fills me with rage. God help the child molester who's face-to-face with me!
4:16 PM
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known …
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known …
4:23 PM
4:46 PM
@fredsbend I think "omnipotent" is a strange concept. If you take it at face value, it seems self-evident that even God can't be omnipotent--there are things that even the most powerful being cannot do (e.g. make a rock so big he can't move it). So to make omnipotence meaningful at all means carefully redefining the word. If that's what it takes, then why use the word in the first place?
5:03 PM
5:21 PM
6:06 PM
6:29 PM
@BruceAlderman maybe he can't, according to the power he has given the addict, and the devil before his fall, prevent the evil. Or perhaps it's not a matter of power at all. Perhaps, and in many cases I find it more likely, we simply don't understand love. Or we fail to see things to their end in God.
Going back to a finite example though, we permit and endorse many things which are evil at the face of it, such as "cutting off a person's limb", when seen in a certain fuller context, such as an amputation to remove dead flesh.
Not that it's necessarily so simply, or in some ways that it's so complex. But, on a core, philosophical level, if God is eternal and perfect, He needs nothing from us. As such, everything He does is necessarily selfless. And if He is transcendent, He's active everywhere for the sake of everyone but himself. That's by the book love: action for the good of the other, of no self benefit
And on a Christian level, a more important level really, God condescends to suffer with us. He thereby blesses our suffering. He grants us the power to make suffering and evil work for good.
2 hours later…
8:37 PM
@BruceAlderman So now you worship a God that has no power. Do you still fear Him? He supposedly has the power to destroy body and soul. He supposedly has legions of angels that can and would destroy this world with a single command.
9:03 PM
God is unchangeable. He is today the same as He was yesterday, as He will need tomorrow, etc. Glory does Him no benefit. It benefits us.
9:34 PM
> 9 For my own name’s sake I delay my wrath;
for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
so as not to destroy you completely.
10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another.
for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
so as not to destroy you completely.
10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another.
9:58 PM
@fredsbend two things. Firstly, I reiterate the previous point: God demands we glorify Him for our sake (good). He necessarily uses strong language to communicate this: we're simple folk. When we reserve "all glory for God, for His sake", we're "fully alive" as God intends.
Secondly, nothing in history or scripture can be understood "fully" outside the context of Christ crucified. Revelation 5, I think. The "lamb as though slain" unlocks the scrolls that no other can.
So, it's all for the glory of God. But, in the end, "the gory of God is a man fully alive." (Saint Irenaeus, I think)
10:23 PM
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