For perspective: haaretz.com/jewish/…

You do realize that most of the world does not consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization, right? Including the UN.

On a similar note, I do have to say that I think that the label of "terrorist organization" is unsuitable for governments, and that is what Hamas is. Their militaries may use terrorist tactics (and Hamas certainly does, a lot), but if terrorism is not most of what they do, the term becomes misleading. For instance, by most accounts the majority of Hamas's budget is dedicated to social programs, administration, and other non-terrorist things. They have a legislature and a governmental structure. And so forth.

@forest groups that employ suicide bombers to specifically murder civilians are terrorist organizations.

@tim Perhaps, but then if so, is carelessly bombing a civilian population with disregard as to who will be killed considered terrorist activity as well (e.g. Israel)?

1) that's not what's happening (Israel employs a number of measures to try and reduce civilian casualties, such as warnings via phone calls) 2) there is a difference between targeting civilians as a tactic to instill terror in the population (ie terrorism) and civilian casualties resulting from attacks on military targets (a sad but common thing in war).

@tim Those measures are largely ineffective and are more of a token gesture due to international pressure... pressure which is applied exactly because the civilian death rate is so high (much higher than the civilian death in Israel). Your 2nd point is only valid if the first point is correct (i.e. the attacking force is being careful).

@JBently The Gaza Health Ministry is an arm of Hamas, and thus liable to distort the civilian death counts. Specifically, an estimated 1/7 of Hamas rockets fell within Gaza; the numbers coming out of the MOH may have been inflated; and the MOH may prefer to label militants as civilians for better PR and to arouse world sympathy. AFAICT this information cannot be fact-checked -- there is no free press in Gaza, and foreign journalists are severely constrained by the regime in their movements and what they are allowed to report.

@JBentley From the "Spirit of the IDF" (the IDF code of values): The sanctity of life in the eyes of IDF troops will be manifest in all of their actions, in thoughtful and precise planning, in astute and safely conducted exercises and in proper implementation, in accordance with the mission, with the appropriate level of risk and caution, and with continual effort to restrict the loss of human life to the extent required by the mission.. While the code was first distributed only in 1994, it's development doesn't seem to have been in response to any sort of international pressure.

@JBentley Another factor to consider is that Hamas deliberately places military targets in civilian areas and structures, hoping to maximize collateral damage.

@ZevSpitz It is a complicated issue and my intention wasn't to get into a debate of all the factors. But since we are doing so, it is worth also considering whether any civilian deaths are justified when a large part of the reason for the conflict is settlements which are viewed as illegal by just about every country in the world aside from the attacking force (and even their courts have ruled that they are illegal).

@JBentley A day after the declaration of Israel as a state, all surrounding arab countries decided to invade. Saying that the settlements are the primary reason for conflict is ridiculous and putting blame solely on one party.

@forest Canada, the EU, Israel, Japan and the US consider it a terrorist organisation. Australia, NZ and the U.K. consider the military wing to be a terrorist organisation.

@forest plus the whole literal mission being that of genocide of my people: “In order to annihilate those Jews. ... O Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. O Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.” “The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. ... Throughout history ... Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth—the Jews must be behind it.”. It’s weird you defend..

Curriculum is shaped by what countries consider important. And "important' is very subjective, specifically history.

@JBentley To expand on tim's point: If in 1947, when the UN adopted the partition plan, the Arab people & nations had said, "We recognize Jewish historical claim to the land, we accept the Jewish state in principle, we have significant reservations about the partition, but are willing to resolve them to enable a 2-state solution", everything would have been very different. If post-1949 Arab leaders would have said, "We tried & failed, we accept the state's existence, everyone who left should go back & file property claims against the Israeli government", things would also be very different.

@JBentley If in 1967 the Arab population of the West Bank & Gaza had said, "We've been defeated in battle, we now accept the state & commit to complete demilitarization as a protectorate of Israel," (a la Japan post WW2) both the West Bank & Gaza would be flourishing today. Without going into the question of legality of the settlements, they are just a thin excuse for violently-minded Arab people to persist in fighting instead of cooperation.

@ZevSpitz I'm not trying to justify the actions of the other side. I deplore violence in all forms. But Israel cannot claim to be innocent at all in this either. Remember, my original comment did not disagree with the initial assertion but rather pointed out that the same standard ought to apply to Israel as well. The actions of half a century ago do not justify illegal settlements today.

@ZevSpitz If, today, Israel made a serious effort towards returning land that doesn't belong to them, instead of teaming up with Donald Trump to produce silly maps that are obviously not going to be acceptable to anyone, then perhaps peace might have the tiniest of chances of being achieved. There would still be many challenges but it would at least be a step in the right direction.

@JBentley You have to see how that's kind of ironic. Israel withdrawing from the Gaza strip even-though there were Jewish settlements there before 1948 and evacuating all Israelis from that land is how we got thousands of rockets fired at Israel in the first place. If Israel didn't return contested land we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.