The Ink Spot

Wolff

15:58

This room has been mute for 2 days. Feel kinda bad about it. Was it something I said? :)

PieBie

@Wolff yes definitely :D

Wes

lol!

i actually read your messages but forgot to reply :P

PieBie

no, sometimes it happens *shrug *

Wolff

I've seen some (maybe 4-5) questions from programmers who need help to generate something they can feed to their learning algorithm. I don't mind helping but I can't help wondering if I'm helping them to make my profession obsolete. I think that design as we know it will eventually die (like many other crafts before). Maybe we should try to make some money helping tech companies kill it instead of giving it all away for free? :)

Wes

what was it about? like landscape generation or something?

Wolff

16:16

We have this guy who wants to be able to read receipts. We've had a few "which font is used for receipts" questions lately and I asked this last one what he needed it for. Didn't ask the others though.

Then we have this one where it's about creating images of 3D objects from all possible angles.

I've seen a few more, but I can't find them right now.

Sometimes when a question seems somewhat strange it's because the OP don't tell what it's used for. We assume "web or print", but it seems that it can also be for training a computer.

Wes

> I mean, if the input will be scanned physical receipts, shouldn't the training material also be in the same form and not clean digitally generated receipts?

basically by generating the "fake" receipts himself, he will be able to train the program automatically @Wolff

when you train a program you need to have the question (the image that needs to be "interpreted" by the program) and the answer (the plain text equivalent of such image)

normally you need actual material to train ai

but if you can generate the material you are going to use a massive shortcut

because you don't need to scan the receipts, feed them to the program, etc

basically he is writing a program that generates fake receipts, meaning also with faded ink, with poor scan quality, not squared, etc. programmatically

so he can train the program very cheaply

Wolff

16:31

@Wes OK, that was what I meant. I was just curious about how to give the images the right wear.

Seems like a lot of trouble. The input receipts might come from many different sources in many different "distorted" qualities.

Wes

yeah you can do that programmatically. there are command line tools that can emulate 90% of photoshop

like image magick

Wolff

But you need to know what to do.

Wes

no it's not. it's extremely cheap to actual real data training

@Wolff yes of course, if you write a program that combines all kinds of defect of a receipt, you can generate millions of realistic examples in literally minutes

Wolff

We've had quite some questions about how to make digitally clean artwork look like it comes from an analogue source. It's not always so easy.

Anyway, isn't this just OCR (as I asked)? Why treat receipts any differently than any other kinds of text?

Wes

in fact you can generate them as you train the program and verify the training as you generate new ones

depends on what he is doing. but yes. there are AI based OCR i reckon

Wolff

16:36

The programmer basically needs to convert pixels to text. When he/she has the text it's straightforward to analyze the content from there.

@Wes Isn't it always "AI" based. I mean it's not a well defined phenomenon. Any program which "learns" from inputted data could be said to be an "AI". Or what?

My brother experimented with this in the 90's. The computers have just become faster. :)

Wes

ocr doesn't normally learn is what i meant. can be improved with ai for sure

Wolff

@Wes Maybe not when you get your hands on it, but during the production phase the programmers must've "taught" it how to read the text.

Wes

sure

but afaik ocr is not like ai

Wolff

Ongoing learning collected from all the users might be the new thing.

Wes

ai is basically "dumb recognition" while ocr is a well thought set of recognition rules

(i don't actually know how ocr works, i could be wrong)

Wolff

16:42

As I said, my brother was working on "AI" back in the 90's. They called it "neural networks". I remember watching him training the program by feeding it with lots of very pixelated "hand written" numbers which it tried to read.

Wes

you could be right

/me googles ocr

Wolff

I'm not unimpressed with new technology. But I just think talking about "artificial intelligence" is quite a stretch. I would call it "advanced database search". :) But I'm not a programmer - just a hobbyist.

@Wes You also might be right about that.

Wes

"dumb recognition" is far less efficient but given the speed of modern computers, you can get good results provided enough training data. actual sensible statistical analysis is obviously better but much more complex to implement

ocr doesn't seem to be a one way only to perform the task

there's a variety of techniques that are used

including modern "ai"

Optical character recognition (OCR) – targets typewritten text, one glyph or character at a time.
Optical word recognition – targets typewritten text, one word at a time (for languages that use a space as a word divider). (Usually just called "OCR".)
Intelligent character recognition (ICR) – also targets handwritten printscript or cursive text one glyph or character at a time, usually involving machine learning.
Intelligent word recognition (IWR) – also targets handwritten printscript or cursive text, one word at a time. This is especially useful for languages where glyphs are not separated…

anyway regarding feeding the training data automatically. that's genius, because you can get the program to learn indefinitely until the program itself is happy with its own performances :P

Wolff

17:01

@Wes Yes, I understand and I think it's smart. But I can also imagine a sci-fi movie showing how humans weren't able to predict every single case beforehand. :)

Wes

1- if you wrote actual algorithms manually not necessarily you would catch that single case :D
2- therefore needs to be just as good as if you wrote the algorithms manually :P

and that's entirely possible

speaking of which, that is probably how our own brain works. there is no design. only "previous experiences" and the ability of recognizing them

Emilie

18:04

@Wolff weekends happen ^^

Happy Monday room

@Wes did you figure out your opacity masks stuff?

Wes

i am still dubious on the reason it works like that.

i mean it's not wrong, i just find it odd. but my opinion might be biased by the experience on other programs

Emilie

I'm still not fully sure I get what you were trying to do

You can apply to groups if I recall correctly

I never used those much since I mostly worked in layout, but I used to give an assignment in an introductory course to AI where they were useful. The students had to create an illustration of a tropical fish, based on an existing photograph

It was a fun assignment, daunting at first though

Wes

essentially i wanted the opacity value to be functioning also in the opacity layer/mask itself

but it's not something i cannot do, i can set the path to "screen" and have that

thing i did

people keep telling me i am in the wrong career. i am normally a programmer

Emilie

18:37

@Wes Well that's a cool thing :)

@Wes You're in the wrong career if you don't like what you're doing.

Wes

i like way too many things

Emilie

Otherwise, being a multipotentialite isn't a bad thing

@Wes Oh I can totally relate to that :)

Wes

or rather, i like doing always new things

wait that didn't translate well... i like new challenges

Emilie

Same for me, the problem is sometimes getting things finished without being sidetracked by another new shiny thing

Wes

yeah :D

Wolff

19:56

@Emilie I feel the same way. Maybe graphic design isn't such a bad choice for people with "too many talents". It is a very broad profession.

Wes

for me it's "too many only barely decent talents" :P

Emilie

@Wolff Or even if you feel restricted, you can still find a nook to fit in somewhere

Wolff

@Wes Uargh it's the story of my life. I've always been "promising" in many fields, but never really exceptional at one thing.

Wes

same

Emilie

Like sometimes less creative students will be able to apply systems more consistently (e.g. layout, brand guidelines, etc.)

Wolff

20:01

@Emilie True. A third parameter can be the ability to socialize.

Emilie

@Wolff Client management lol

Wolff

@Emilie Yeah and plain old salesmanship.

(not what I'm best at)

Emilie

There was one exercise I gave once that was really revealing. I think I stole it from The Education of a Graphic Designer... Basically, works were being presented by students other than the ones who actually created them

I had one student specifically, she could argue every choice the original student had made and she was really convincing at it too

It was uncanny that the student himself hadn't even put that much thought in his choices (from his own admission afterwards)

Wolff

Oh, I think I've tried something similar. It's not only about selling, but also about analyzing a project objectively.

The uncanny thing is that people without a care in the world often are able to sell themselves better than the more thoughtful and worried type (who might be "better").

Emilie

@Wolff Thoughtful + worried = forced into humility maybe :)

Wolff

20:31

@Emilie Yeah. I don't know if I'm humble, but I sometimes feel run over by people with no skills, no consciousness regarding the craft, cool clothes and lots of "friends". :)

Emilie

@Wolff Well I think the good part is that the work typically speaks for itself, so talented folks can still find each other even if they're not being as vocal about it than others :)

It's sort of like all those discussions of designers who rant about fiverr and stuff...would you really want those clients anyways

at that moment, those people are not ready to pay for more than basic design services, and that's ok

someone needs to take care of the ephemeral stuff anyways

Wolff

@Emilie Nice of you to put it that way. :)

Emilie

You still sort of need to get your stuff out there...At least nowadays it's sort of easier to share

Word-of-mouth too...

Wolff

That's the thing. I think my humility/modesty lies in not wanting to do mediocre stuff. Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist. You see so many people online who are just spewing out designs with nice finish, following the latest trend. I could easily copy it (like they do), but I don't want to! It's not cool, you know?

Emilie

20:48

@Wolff Well the challenge also comes with actually doing it for a client...

A lot of people design incredibly cool things when not bogged down by a variety of constraints, but is it design?

Wolff

@Emilie When I started out (ten years ago) I was very quick to criticize every design I came across. Today I know that every job comes with many constraints and compromises. The design might be mediocre, but the designer could be very skilled to be able to achieve that under the given circumstances.

Emilie

@Wolff Yep

I was having a chat with someone from UX recently about ethics

We have a packaging class for which we have an environmental component that I've updated recently

and the amount of "innovative" packaging design that gets showcased on blogs for being sustainable is really disheartening

Wolff

How do you mean?

(I'm not sure what it means for a class to have an environmental component)

Emilie

wired.com/2014/08/…

@Wolff Like when we teach packaging design, we try to touch on how to design in ways that are more responsible for the environment

reduction of materials used, making things reusable, etc.

since packaging is one of the more wasteful areas

Wolff

Ah. Well there so much "hot air" when it comes to doing something for the environment.

Emilie

20:55

re: the link above...those pearls were all over the place back in those days

Wolff

Never seen them before

Emilie

theguardian.com/environment/shortcuts/2018/apr/09/…

Wolff

Is it disheartening because it's so hi-tech and out of reach? Or am I misunderstanding?

Emilie

I'm mostly concerned that they get publicity but they seem to sort of be riding the wave of looking cool

like what about transportation...safety

who drinks just one sip of water?? :P

labeling?

Maybe I can use the same process on vodka? :P

Some of it is cool, but a lot of it is just wind...

Wolff

Oh, where to start. Everything about global warming is depressing. It concerns me deeply (for many years - it's not a new thing), but what people are doing right now is trying to find out which product to buy so they can get their indulgence.

Emilie

21:00

Oh and by ".those pearls were all over the place back in those days", I meant getting online publicity from blogs saying how cool it is there's no packaging

Wolff

Lol.

Emilie

Talking about getting interested by anything new and shiny

I made a bowl out of mycellium maybe 2 years ago

Wolff

When we produce print we work on doing it as environmental as possible, but clients seem to forget that it would be even better for the environment if they didn't produce anything at all.

@Emilie It's used in molecular gastronomy right? Think I've seen it before.

Bubble tea!

Emilie

You can take molds, fill it with waste product that mushrooms enjoy (not too acidic) and the thing will grow

@Wolff Might be, not sure

I've dabbled in molecular gastronomy (that too lol...) but it was more about spherification back in those days

Wolff

@Emilie Just googled it, no that wasn't what I thought it was. This looks all thready.

Emilie

21:03

I haven't updated myself since then

I wouldn't eat it lol

Wolff

@Emilie I thought that was what you meant.

Emilie

it's the state before mushrooms

Wolff

Like mushroom roots?

Emilie

@Wolff yep!

it has really cool properties too

Wolff

For packaging?

Emilie

21:05

anti-fire (whatever the word is), super light, sturdy, biodegrable

Wolff

Let's produce billions of those and save the world

Emilie

I think IKEA said they'd switch their (eeeeh what's the word?) polystrene(?) to this mycellium stuff

@Wolff lol maybe not but it seems like something worth considering

Wolff

In Denmark we have this conception of ourselves as being very good at reducing CO2 (and the smartest and friendliest and happiest etc.). But we seem to forget that we don't really produce our own goods anymore :)

Emilie

@Wolff I don't think that perception is limited to yourselves, I think a lot of the world holds Danemark in high esteem

Wolff

Well, it seems a little bit hollow.

Emilie

21:10

Does anyone ever really produce all of their own goods anymore?

Wolff

China?

Emilie

@Wolff I think my province exports a ton of chicken to China...would need to double check that though

Wolff

A new way of sorting our garbage was introduced not very long ago. Among other things it means that food must be separated to produce biogas.

Emilie

My kid is up, will check chat later :)

Nice talking to you!

Wolff

But the problem is, that a part of our heat comes from burning garbage.

OK, bye.

Zach Saucier

22:21

What are you mods thinking related to the big chain of moderators stepping down in light of SE's policies? @Emilie @DᴀʀᴛʜVᴀᴅᴇʀ @Ryan @PieBie @Wrzlprmft?

Emilie

23:48

@ZachSaucier I'll reply later when the kids are in bed. Are you looking for something specific? Because we're not free to share specifics. There isn't a whole lot that can be said over what's already being written on moderator resignations all over the network

Zach Saucier

Just curious about your thoughts & if any mods on GD are considering stepping down.

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