The Hangar

Farhan

01:56

@rbp Probably he wasn't talking about non-directional beacons, but something else. Either way, it is No Big Deal. :)

voretaq7

02:52

@rbp Which revision should it be? :P

casey

@rbp you probably aren't too far off with that theory

When I was instructing we had two FO's from SriLankan Airlines come to us for an ATP checkride (in a seminole)

voretaq7

@casey . . No Good Can Come Of This Story.

casey

they had essentially been flipping gear and using the radio and no real flying experience at all

to upgrade they had to get an FAA ATP as some kind of weed-out program or something...

these guys did pass (not on the first try, but you don't need an instructor recommendation to take the ATP the first time)

voretaq7

"Knows flap handle from gear lever" is pretty high on the FO knowledge exam list I assume...

casey

but I told myself I'd never fly that airline after seeing firsthand how one of their new captains flew

voretaq7

03:03

Just tell me these guys were lacking instructor ratings so i can sleep at night :P

casey

@voretaq7 true, but at least we fly half the time here, these guys were right seat on some big airbus and had never touched the sidestick from what I could gather

@voretaq7 no instructor ratings :)

voretaq7

ok :)

rbp

04:34

The gear is te flat one or the round one???

@ndbtaq7 yes must be

Anonymous

05:59

sup @voretaq7 how's everything doing at Slack?

voretaq7

07:13

@PatoSáinz Terrible. Wesley clawed all the furniture (and I think he pissed in some of it!)

Christian Rau

11:21

Hello aviation enthusiast and fellow SEers. A while ago I asked a question over on Sports about the reasons for a rule change in the Red Bull Air Race:

1

Q: Why have the vertically passed air gates been abolished?

In the past (up until the new 2014 season) a Red Bull Air Race track consisted of 3 different kinds of gates, requiring different fly through procedures: Pylon pairs to be flewn through horizontally. Pylon pairs to be flewn through vertically. Single chicane plyons to be crossed on alternating ...

But it's sitting there now for a while without much response. I wanted to ask, if you would deem it on-topic here and if you think you could provide some insight into it. If yes, I'd ask the Sports mods to migrate it here. If not, then maybe you still have ideas you want to share on the Sports question.

DeltaLima

12:44

Check out these guys: youtube.com/watch?v=iGM2G0IXbRk

Taxiing to the gate with four blown tires ...

forum.contatoradar.com.br/index.php/topic/…

SentryRaven

13:14

meow :)

ratchet freak

woof

rbp

13:41

@DeltaLima given how much FOD it generated, i'm surprised they let it taxi at all.

CGCampbell

14:27

@voretaq7 very awesome engine answer :c)

rbp

15:38

very awesome javascript ATC simulator. the issue with these ATC simulators is that most long-distance traffic is already spaced coming into TRACON and headed for arrival gates, not random headings. zlsa.github.io/atc

as per the meta topic, please have a look at some of these mew edits/answers to old questions and upvote if you feel its warranted: aviation.stackexchange.com/search?tab=active&q=helicopter

Stack Exchange

Uncontrolled Airspace: General Aviation Podcast: "Gear Door Wedgie" UCAP #371

posted on January 07, 2015

747 landing gear problem... Interesting turboprop jump plane... ETOPS Redux... AirAsia Airbus probably down in Java Sea... All this and more on the Uncontrolled Airspace General Aviation Podcast. Recorded December 30, 2014.

rbp

i was missing a green light on a t-tail Arrow with an instructor for my commercial. tower was very cooperative but couldn't say jack about gear position, and they cleared me to land 'any runway'. we landed uneventfully. the instructor (for commercial airplane) had just a few hours in pipers, but i had over 200, so he let me handle the emergency. when we got on the ground, he almost got fired because he didn't take control from me.

was the CFI right to let me handle the emergency? or his boss?

ratchet freak

that's one for the site

casey

@rbp you are the PIC on that flight

rbp

15:53

i'll post it

casey

the argument could be made that you let him fly while you mess with the airplane since you presumably know the systems better

and flying is the easy job in an emergency (barring flight control/hydraulic issues)

rbp

16:05

0

Q: Who should handle an emergency when there's both a certificated pilot and a CFI on board?

While practicing for my commercial certificate in a T-taili Piper Arrow IV, I put the gear down on downwind, and one green light didn't come on. In the right seat was a CFII/Multi, who had less than 10 hours in Pipers, whereas I had over 200, having done my PPL in stiff-legged Cherokees. As a ...

flight-training emergency general-aviation

voretaq7

16:39

@rbp Pretty much what @casey said -- IMHO "the most qualified person" should be doing each job, and since you had more time in PA28s it makes sense to me that you'd be the one to do the landing.

rbp

i felt really bad for the instructor

voretaq7

@rbp Me too, it sounds like the school he works for is a bag of dicks

rbp

and if the landing had gone awry, he probably would have been fired

not for the emergency itself, but for letting me handle it

voretaq7

They shouldn't be second-guessing the emergency decisions being made in the cockpit (frankly even if the instructor had more Arrow time and "took command" for the emergency if he decided you're the right person to fly the plane to the ground nobody should be second-guessing that!)

@rbp so...was it a burned-out lamp? :)

rbp

they were vague about it to me

voretaq7

16:43

(the cause of something like 90% of "three...er... two greens. Fuck.")

rbp

we swapped the bulbs, of course

turned off all the lights. rotated the irises

voretaq7

probably the switch then - that's probably about half of the remaining problems :)

rbp

did some yawing

voretaq7

did you have fun with the manual gear drop lever?

rbp

decided not to cycle the gear, for fear that it would get worse

voretaq7

16:45

@rbp also a sound decision.

I'm 50/50 on whether I'd suck the gear back up and cycle it or use the emergency drop

rbp

@voretaq7 arrow gear is held up hydraulically, so the only thing that the emergency gear thing does is dump the pressure

voretaq7

but if the tower told me it appeared to be down I'd probably have done what you guys did - leave it alone.

rbp

the question we had was only whether or not it was locked down

voretaq7

@rbp I know, but the gravity drop lets them fall pretty quick, sometimes that will thump them into place hard enough to lock them if the normal extension doesn't work

(or hard enough to shake the switch and make the stupid light come on like it's supposed to)

rbp

agreed, that's why I yawed away from that wheel

voretaq7

16:47

but like you said, that involves sucking the gear back up, and introduces the uncertainty of "Will it come back down?"

rbp

hoping the slipstream would pressure it into place

honestly, we did a really good job

voretaq7

yeah, from where I sit you did pretty much everything the manual says to try

rbp

and I think we made the right decision, but i felt really bad for the CFI

even landed on the crosswind runway, with the bad wheel downwind

voretaq7

@rbp that I probably wouldn't have done - I would have gone for the sweetest, softest, most-normalest landing I could make and yes please have the trucks sitting there even though a gear collapse is probably just going to embarrass the hell out of the maintenance department

rbp

you and me both

voretaq7

16:54

depends how much faith you have that the gear was locked though, I've read about them folding up after a beautiful landing because the turn onto the taxiway was enough to make them shift so I'd have a pretty high level of paranoia :)

rbp

i'm OK with it folding during taxi :)

voretaq7

(I like my straight-leg cherokee. Big heavy cylinders bolted to the spar. Very unlikely to fold up or fall off :-)

rbp

what model? you said its really old, maybe a Cherokee 180?

voretaq7

@rbp and ruin the beautifully-executed emergency landing? Bad plane! BAD! You get the tow of shame from the grottiest looking tug on the field! :P

@rbp 180C (1965)

Officially 50 years old now

rbp

take me for a ride this summer!

voretaq7

16:56

we've actually got her mostly back together, the guys are doing the final paint now

That was yesterday. (Notice anything missing?)

casey

@voretaq7 the tow of shame...

rbp

pretty!

voretaq7

@casey what would you call it? :)

rbp

@casey in high-heels and a short skirt

casey

I landed the EMB-145 in IAH once and noted that spoilers and reversers would not deploy and the handling was a bit odd

voretaq7

16:57

@rbp Leopard print wheel pants.

casey

we got it off the runway and found we had no nosewheel steering

rbp

how's the rudder authority on the ground?

casey

so we swung it wide into one of the pulloffs and told them to send a tug for us. not going to try to park it with just the rudder pedals and differential thrust

voretaq7

@casey 0_o What did the maintenance department do?!

rbp

oh yeah, diff power, too

casey

16:59

@voretaq7 the air/ground logic board fried itself, so everything locked itself into "safe" settings

rbp

<<< no multi time

casey

so no thrust reverse, since it didnt know if we were on the ground

no nosewheel steering, etc

voretaq7

@casey and no nose wheel steering because they don't want you to land with the damn thing sideways I guess?

casey

they don't want the wheel to move when it isn't down and locked

rbp

@casey the nosewheel steering is somehow electronic?

voretaq7

17:00

@casey ahh true, that could be "problematic"

casey

@rbp nosewheel steering is hydraulic, actuated by the tiller

in the EMB-145 you had +/- 7 deg of rotation from the rudder pedals and +/- 30ish with the tiller

rbp

@casey if hydraulic, how is it integrated to the logic board?

casey

the tiller is an electronic control, that talks to the hydraulics, but it is locked out unless the airplane is on the ground

rbp

got it

casey

normally you have 4 a/g switches and you need 3 of them to vote the same way to determine "air" or "ground".

(in the EMB-145/135)

voretaq7

17:03

@casey <pokes head out of avionics bay with a soldering iron in one hand and wire cutters in the other> How many? :)

rbp

L-39 has a free castering nosewheel.

there 's a valve controlled by the rudder pedals which determines how much proportion of hydraulic power is sent to each wheel brake

Farhan

@voretaq7 It looks very nice. Since you are painting, is this also a possibility?

voretaq7

. . . . hmmmmm

How about I just put the swimsuit edition in the seatback pockets instead?

casey

we had 2 systems, 3000 psi. powered brakes, ailerons, rudders, nosewheel steering.

rbp

@casey i assume you had a company policy about taxiing without the tiller at an airport with appropriate tugs

casey

17:09

no policy. we could have gotten into some gates, but it wasn't worth the trouble when they could just send a supertug out to get us

rbp

@voretaq7 without the wingtips, you can really see the symmetricality of the airfoil on the old cherokees!

voretaq7

@rbp Without the wingtips you can really see the flimsy pressed aluminum section that makes up the outer spar :-)

rbp

i really love those planes, with the stabilator and the mechanical flaps.

voretaq7

(don't ask what you can see without the tail :P)

rbp

heh

voretaq7

17:11

It's one thing to read the maintenance manual and know your vertical fin is held on by a couple of bolts. It's an entirely different matter when you pop those bolts off and it comes off in your hands!

rbp

i never flew a 140 or a 180, but I flew all the rest of the singles -- archer, warrior, straight and t-tail arrow, dakota

voretaq7

The T-tail Arrow always confused me

"So...basically marketing beat up the engineers, locked them in a closet, and wouldn't let them out until they made it 'pretty'?"

rbp

it also has a weird motion with full elevator. once you pull the yoke all the way back, you can get another 1" of yoke travel by pulling the yoke up. until I figured this out, I found the power-off 180s unpredictable.

voretaq7

and I always thought the Dakota took the "Well just strap a bigger engine to it!" PA-28 mantra a little too far :-)

rbp

oh, the dakota was great for flying into the sierras! 235hp and a constant speed prop.

voretaq7

17:15

@rbp I assume this is more than the usual "up" on the yoke that the rest of the Cherokees have?

rbp

yes

voretaq7

…Designed for airline captains. (Yoke must clear beer gut!)

Farhan

17:30

@rbp Fort Leavenworth is the semi-circle, not that oddly shaped cutout which OP mentioned.

I added a picture.

rbp

@Farhan yes, i just wrote that

voretaq7

@rbp hmm... I'm usually pretty good at figuring out these little "WTF" airspace things, but I'm stumped by this one

rbp

@voretaq7 i made another guess. i'm usually pretty good at this too. i even looked at the approaches plates for MCO

here's the turf strip Elton Field. pretty hard to make out: goo.gl/maps/eZdTi

voretaq7

Yeah I thought Elton but I would have expected them to do the usual circle around it rather than cut that wedge so close to it

rbp

@voretaq7 that's why i threw in the reporting point for good measure :)

voretaq7

17:40

Might be for VFR traffic using the reporting point though - that sort of makes sense

(though it doesn't look like there would be a lot of VFR traffic through that particular corner of the airspace?)

and really is it so hard to key a damn radio? <shakes fist at bright yellow cub from the cheap seats in the 737>

rbp

17:57

have a look at this approach: 155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1413/00152VDA.PDF

notice that the segment from MCI to MCI DME5 is 296 degrees?

@vortaq7 that skirts the cutout perfectly

CGCampbell

18:09

@voretaq7 :c) My father, in his 'bright yellow cub' has no radio to key

voretaq7

@CGCampbell Buy the old man a handheld for Christmas! :)

rbp

@voretaq7 i found it. there's an unmarked field that's at the other end of the cutout. see my updated answer

voretaq7

@rbp wow...

Former FAA administrator live there?

rbp

18:24

@voretaq7 dunno. i typed in "platte city aviation" into google maps, and it popped up :)

"Platte Valley" came up, and once I zoomed in, the turf strip was obvious

Farhan

@rbp Good find. I was thinking it was because of that VFR reporting point only.

This is a nice document.

voretaq7

@Farhan "What does this big gray shaded circle on the chart mean?"

rbp

is PSP the only TRSA left?

Farhan

@voretaq7 Surface area ... ?

Oh man, are you joking :P

voretaq7

@rbp I think there's one in NY somewhere too

@rbp yup, BGM is still charted

rbp

18:36

i see elmira too

voretaq7

and elmira too apparently

...and a QR code in the chart margin, because "why the fuck not?"

Farhan

Terminal radar service area

In United States aviation, a terminal radar service area (TRSA) is a delimited airspace in which radar and air traffic control services are made available to pilots flying under instrument flight rules or (optionally) visual flight rules for the purposes of maintaining aircraft separation. TRSAs are most often encountered surrounding busy U.S. airports. In recent years many of them have gradually been replaced by Class C or Class B airspace. Terminal Radar Service Area was established as part of a program to create Terminal Radar stations at selected airports. Because these were never subject to...

List is there ... ^

fooot

@Farhan Beat me to it, they list 28 of them.

voretaq7

@fooot @Farhan That's cheating. You're supposed to play Chart Whack-A-Mole with them!

fooot

@voretaq7 Now that you know where the mole holes are, go right ahead :)

rbp

18:42

I did my first PPL student XC to PSP, from Brackett Field in the LA basin. on the flight over there with my instructor, it was pretty smooth and easy. on my own, of course, it was in the afternoon, and i got the crap kicked out of me going through the wind tunnel known as the Banning Pass, a 737 landed behind me ("cherokee 3-1-H, please taxi off the runway"), and the sun in my eyes with smog reducing visibility on the return.

voretaq7

@fooot that's no fun - it's unsportsmanlike!

Now we'll have to go back to hunting for "Balloon on tether to 10,000 MSL"

...or 14,000 MSL apparently

Farhan

19:19

@rbp I modified your answer. ~~Don't indulge in edit war.~~ Please rollback if you don't like it.

casey

@rbp FYI (just in case) I wasn't trying to be aggressive / pushy with my comments on the college w/flight school q&a. I've just seen too many people buy in to those schools (namely ERAU, the dream is an easy sell) and get loaded in debt. My biggest issue with them is that they'll happily tell you that some specific degree will set you ahead of your peers when the reality is no one cares as long as you can check the box and you end up paying a lot more for the piece of paper than you need to.

I don't have anything against people that go to the schools, I just want them to be informed that it isn't the only way and certainly not the cheapest way

voretaq7

20:08

@casey some of the "aviation management" programs are useful if you don't want to go the airline route (e.g. if you want to work in the small FBO/Flight School/Charter arena)

Dan Hulme

20:18

Is it my imagination or are pitots quite unreliable?

they ice up in the slightest provocation, and the ports get bunged up

and then they under-read in warm air or high altitudes

Farhan

@casey it isn't the only way means that there are other ways to become a pilot or does it mean that there are other careers in aviation besides becoming an airline pilot?

casey

there are other careers, but if your only aspiration is to sit in the left seat of a 777 until you turn 65, the topic of your degree wont matter

Dan Hulme

@casey have I understood this correctly? these flight schools are offering a pilot's licence plus a degree in "airline operations" or the like, when airlines just want you to have a licence plus any degree?

casey

@DanHulme correct, for US airlines at least

a degree in underwater basket weaving and an ATP with a class 1 medical with no waivers will do just fine

Dan Hulme

cool

might find another use for my computer science degree if programming doesn't work out, then

casey

20:31

I didn't get my degree until after I left the airlines in fact

so its not even a 100% hard requirement

Dan Hulme

might make a nice cover note: "I have a compsci degree and I've written C to JSF standards, so if the flight computer goes wrong, I'll just fix it while airborne"

... by turning it off and on again

Farhan

Computer Science degree always works out :)

Dan Hulme

@Farhan I dunno; I don't really like computers that much

they always go wrong

Farhan

Although, I'm sure underwater basket weaving is a lot more harder than programming.

Dan Hulme

it depends how long it takes you to weave the basket

one minute, you're OK

an hour, that's quite hard

Farhan

20:37

@DanHulme Oh, then it is easy for you.

My dilemma is that I love Software Engineering, and I love airplanes, and I love Lego.

SentryRaven

Write software for Lego Airplanes, @Farhan...

Farhan

... and everything is soooo expensive :(

@SentryRaven Will that bring $$$

SentryRaven

Unlikely....

voretaq7

@Farhan Airplanes cost less than a Lego addiction.

. . . frankly cocaine probably costs less than a Lego addiction.

@DanHulme Pitot tubes are pretty reliable. So are AOA vanes.

When they ice up it's usually because some dumb shit forgot to turn the heaters on :)

Farhan

21:21

@voretaq7 That can be true. Luckily I'm not that much addicted. :)

rbp

21:57

@casey @farhan no worries

@farhan technology is a gateway drug to flying

Dan Hulme

yeah

just ask Andy Hopper

or the Wright brothers, I suppose

rbp

@Farhan this box doesnn't enclose the runway i.sstatic.net/D6zwU.png

the blue box is the runway

Farhan

22:13

@rbp Ah, I couldn't find the runway, so I highlighted the entire field.

voretaq7

@rbp I thought it was just a way to get the money you need? :P

Dan Hulme

aww man

why did nobody warn me that flying planes is a gateway drug to looking at photos of planes?

rbp

@vortaq7 heh, remind me to only fly with you to runways with REILs :)

voretaq7

22:30

@rbp Why? You like the Pop Pop Pop Pop noise they make in the headset on short final? :)

rbp

@voretaq7 cause you couldn't find the damn runway!

voretaq7

@rbp oh, I didn't look too close to be honest :)

I do have a distinct preference for pavement. Gophers don't dig holes in asphalt.

rbp

@voretaq7 thanks for making my point ;)

Dan Hulme

what do you do when your precious wheel brakes fail? ;-)

voretaq7

Grass strips are easy to find if you're looking for them :P

@DanHulme Cut the engine, leave the flaps down, and pull the yoke back to my chin - plane slows down pretty well without 'em.

rbp

22:34

@DanHulme never use them in tail draggers, they're notoriously ineffective, and they'll nose you over!

Dan Hulme

well, that's my point

my tail-dragger doesn't have them anyway

rbp

+1

Dan Hulme

if you land on tarmac it just doesn't stop

voretaq7

@rbp very effective - they flipped you on your nose :-)

rbp

well there's that, too

voretaq7

22:35

@DanHulme Sure it does. Physics says it has to eventually. (Perhaps not in the available runway though...)

but hey that's why we're trying to get EMAS beds at the ends of the other runway at FRG :)

(for you grass strip folks, that'd be the hay bales at the end of the runway to stop you from rolling into the farmhouse...)

Dan Hulme

23:05

@voretaq7 we don't have those, just a ditch before you get to the perimeter fence

voretaq7

@DanHulme I'm not sure what kind of arresting system you call that, but it sounds effective :)

Transcript for