The Hangar

voretaq7

02:23

Not directly related to my answer, but it's worth noting that things get a little more murky in terms of logging PIC time - I'm not sure where that would fall from a regulatory standpoint. (You are rated for the aircraft which means as sole manipulator of the controls you would normally qualify for logging PIC time, but you don't have a current medical which means you can't technically act as PIC. My gut says you can't log PIC time in this situation (and to be legally-safe you definitely shouldn't) but I'm not sure what reg or counsel opinion to cite to back that gut feeling up up.) — voretaq7 1 min ago

If nobody has a convenient front-of-the-brain answer to that bit of murkiness I may post a question about it later :)

casey

02:46

@voretaq7 there are plenty of examples of logging PIC without acting PIC, but for this one I'd just skip logging it, log dual received and be done with it.

voretaq7

@casey yeah but all the ones I can think of except one you're still fully qualified to act as PIC

& the exception is checkrides which are an odd rabbit

casey

What about an instructor w/ no medical giving instruction to a rated student?

I know you can instruct w/ no medical if the student can be PIC and I know you can log PIC when instructing. I don't know if they mix.

voretaq7

@casey I'm not sure how that one would work - kinda the same as this situation: You're allowed to log PIC for dual given, but it's strange because you're not legally able to be PIC

casey

yea, its a situation I'd try to avoid in practice :)

particularly if my medical was on OK city in the hands of the FAA

voretaq7

the regs don't address it AFAIK, I may wind up posting the question (maybe there's a counsel opinion letter)

my feeling is log it as flight time and dual received (the safe/wuss way :-)

casey

02:50

its all shady stuff. Like the practice of putting two IFR students in a plane XC, the acting PIC under the hood and the legal PIC the safety pilot, both logging PIC. something like that anyway, its been some time since I was familiar with those details.

voretaq7

@casey that one the FAA has actually deemed kosher apparently, It seems funky though.

casey

and its rampant at flight training "acadamies"

I imagine they are collectively behind the FAA interpretations that it is kosher

voretaq7

@casey probably :)

casey

what really made it shady were the pairs of students that you knew weren't respecting the requirement that one be under the hood the whole time except takeoff and landing, and that you probably shouldn't both be logging PIC if the safety pilot isnt required...

voretaq7

@casey yeah. I can see swapping off the hood but really I think you can only log as much PIC as your buddy logs simulated instrument (legal definition of PIC notwithstanding)

its a letter-vs-spirit thing :)

casey

03:01

yea. Funnily the pilot flying would log the whole time and they would subtract .2 as the sim instrument time and the safety pilot PIC time. Every time.

:)

my chrome tabs have really been messing with me today. Earlier the site favicon finally changed to the airplane in that tab but this one hasnt, so I am looking at both versions next to eachother

Lnafziger

03:41

@voretaq7 The no current medical means squat in relation to logging PIC. As you said, you can't be the PIC, but there is no requirement to be the PIC or even to be qualified to be a PIC in order to log PIC time. Sole manip of an aircraft in which you are rated. Period. If you meet that then you can log it as PIC.

@voretaq7 Same thing with the instructor logging PIC without a medical or even if they aren't qualified to act as PIC (perhaps they aren't rated in the aircraft). As long as someone else is PIC and they are giving instruction, they can log PIC.

casey

@Lnafziger there was a time when I knew this stuff cold...

probably lost it sometime after my last hour of dual given in 2005

Lnafziger

@casey Yeah, I have to revisit some of the things that I used to know too from time to time. :)

voretaq7

@Lnafziger I agree with you from a "strictly what the FARs say" standpoint, but I'm wondering if there's a counsel interpretation out there that contradicts that (along the lines of "Your certificate is a pumpkin dude, what the hell do you think you're doing?!")

Lnafziger

@voretaq7 No, I've seen letters from the FAA backing that up.

And the regs are very clear, it would be hard for them to "interpret" them another way.

voretaq7

It's very easy for them to interpret anything any way they please (witness some of the ACs) :)

Lnafziger

03:49

That being said, most airlines won't let you count it towards the PIC time that you put on an application for them. So now you need two columns. "PIC (per FAR)" and "Dispatched as PIC".

(which is what they are looking for)

casey

FAR 1 PIC :)

Lnafziger

Yeah, they rarely blatantly contradict the regulations though. :)

voretaq7

the only counsel opinions I could find with respect to logging & medicals were re: instruction "If your CFI's medical has lapsed can they still instruct / give you a BFR" ("Yes, as long as your current flight review hasn't expired")

@Lnafziger or they revise the AC pretty quickly after someone points it out :)

@Lnafziger my insurance company asks for PIC and "sole manipulator" time, presumably aiming at the same thing

"We don't care if you were just a lump sitting in the right seat the whole time, how much actual flying have you done?"

casey

I don't even know if I could come up with that number anymore. I logged my time in the jet by day and we switched every 2 legs.

Lnafziger

@voretaq7 Oddly enough, neither one of those would be the same as what the airlines want.

casey

03:53

but I can definitely tell you how many hours I signed the dispatch release :)

567

Lnafziger

You can be "sole manip" and not even be rated in the aircraft (as an SIC in an aircraft requiring a type rating that you don't have).

voretaq7

true

Lnafziger

@casey How long did you fly as PIC?

casey

I was released to the line in mid Dec 2007 and lost my seat in a displacement bid effective 1 Oct 2008

so 9.5 months

and the entire time the second most junior reserve captain

maybe I was a few numbers higher than that, but it felt that way

voretaq7

Can I just say I still don't get the airlines

they seem bound and determined to make sure nobody wants to work for them :)

casey

03:57

I got in a bid earlier than I should have since people were holding out, then on the next 2 bids people realized get in now or it will be a long time to upgrade and no one junior to my class got upgrades

voretaq7

(and they're the only industry I know that seems to go out of their way to irritate (or allow others to irritate) their passengers

casey

I would have been more dissapointed with losing my seat if I hadn't seen it coming well before I even upgraded. It was more of a "bid for it and make the most of it if I get it" thing

Lnafziger

@casey cool

@voretaq7 Well, the union auto workers -vs- management are very similar... I think it's more of a union thing.

voretaq7

one would think the union would want to do things to encourage new workers to want to enter the industry, thereby securing new members.... I'm just sayin' :)

Lnafziger

Oh, they usually do. In fact, there are usually death threats when a vote is coming up on whether or not to make a new plant a union plant.

voretaq7

04:04

@Lnafziger don't get me started - I still have issues with the VW plant voting down the union (seriously, even management wanted the union because unionized auto workers tend to be less miserable and produce better cars!)

but large unions these days tend to bring the suck - it's kinda depressing

Lnafziger

yup

casey

the airline unions have their ups and downs, but have done a lot of good for the industry. ALPA is largely the reason we have TCAS in our planes and a few other expensive safety features

voretaq7

oh.... oh dear....

casey

But a union is only as good as its members and leadership.

One of the worst paid and most terrible of all regionals was a union carrier. The best ones were too.

@voretaq7 yea, I saw that from a tweet of a picture of the plane and the text "yep, my plane just crashed"

from wherever the evac people were gathering

voretaq7

@casey I'm not a fan of the A320, but I don't think it deserves that...

casey

04:12

I bet flying out of PHL was fun tonight!

only one runway open...

I've been waiting for the first Q about that flight. I'm a bit surprised it hasn't come in yet

voretaq7

Everything about PHL is always fun....
and by fun I mean "dear God, if you love me you'll let me get sucked through a jet intake - it would hurt less than this punishment."

@casey Well, we know where that plane is. :-)

casey

haha

I had an FO tell me a story about PHL I find hard to believe, but I want to.

He says during pushback, he sees one of the wingwalkers drop something and stuff it back into his pants, shiny metallic and gun looking.

voretaq7

@casey "I was taxiing to the gate and I saw this dude pushing a 707 up to a jetway, but every time he would get it there its brakes would let go and it would roll back out onto the taxiway..." <--- ?

casey

The call the ramp to return to the gate and tell them they need a redcoat (CAL CS person) at the gate for a pax

voretaq7

well it's Philly.... everyone's got a gun :-)

casey

04:15

and then the redcoat gets security to detain the ramper, who explains he needs the gun because the PHL ramp is a dangerous place and he didnt want to get robbed

voretaq7

@casey "Dude, those baggage handlers are vicious!"

casey

I hated going into PHL, my least favorite airport. BWI a close second due to guaranteed delays back into EWR due to its iconvienent location in the flow. And I say this as someone who loved EWR :)

fun trivia: EWR has no taxiway lights

voretaq7

@casey Jersey.

casey

:)

it was much more convenient to drive to than the other NYC area airports coming from PA

voretaq7

I object to calling EWR "NYC Area". Any airport where the tolls to get into Manhattan cost more than my airplane ticket isn't "NYC Area" :)

I always find it amusing when the NTSB briefs on pipeline incidents.

(I also can't disguise my amusement that Robert Sumwalt looks like Mad-Eye Moody from the Harry Potter films)

casey

04:37

@voretaq7 you can always take the PATH out of Manhattan and connect to whatever train takes you to EWR :)

voretaq7

@casey . . . 0_o

methinks all that time at altitude has affected your mind, sir! :)

casey

perhaps :)

I have put a lot of pressurization cycles on it

though I have done the public transit via rail from EWR to the PATH to the manhattan subway a few times :)

its not so bad

voretaq7

...I'm having trouble reconciling "PATH" and "Not so bad"

casey

I've also walked across the GWB (jersey -> NY) and through upper manhattan to the subway (new years eve 2005)

voretaq7

@casey I've done stupider things while drunk :)

casey

04:40

:)

Danny Beckett

hi guys

voretaq7

@DannyBeckett ohai

Danny Beckett

hey! hows it going mike?

"Airspace Rebooted" - A visualisation of European airspace returning to use after being closed due to volcanic ash

voretaq7

►

Danny Beckett

yeah I've seen that. First one I've seen of EU though

voretaq7

04:54

@DannyBeckett I'd like to see the EU shutdown video after the volcano erupted

Danny Beckett

funnily enough, I'm hoping to make some money off that damn volcano :)

youdelaywepay.co.uk

:p

voretaq7

pfft

nevar.

Danny Beckett

eh?

voretaq7

Acts of Dog are expressly excluded :P

Danny Beckett

nooooooooop

let me get you a link

Ryanair ash cloud case: EU's top court rules against airline

voretaq7

04:59

The EU is so nice to the plebes

Here they just say "Act of God."

if you're lucky you get a ticket refund

Danny Beckett

someone was paid about £1100 by Ryanair recently

voretaq7

and maybe a stale sandwich and some water.

Danny Beckett

lol I'm seriously hoping to make some money here :p

that's why I haven't been around much lately... working on setting up this company

help people claim some money... hahaha

I don't think the airlines will like me very much if I pull it off, lol

voretaq7

@DannyBeckett I believe airlines feel the same contempt for passengers as sysadmins do for users

i.e. "They couldn't possibly hate you more than they already do" :-)

Danny Beckett

lol

take a look at this, what do you think that "fast plane" might be? switch it off after 1 minute. It's just some conspiracy theory bs or something after that..

►

voretaq7

05:08

@DannyBeckett ...a plane? If he clicked on it he'd get its identifying information

Danny Beckett

yeah I'm trying to pull it up myself now...

[redacted... i'm dumb]

x

voretaq7

flightradar24 can be jumpy like that, especially in weak coverage areas

Danny Beckett

ah ok...

KAL672 was the plane flightradar24.com/2014-03-07/16:55/12x/MAS370/2d81a27

voretaq7

Clearly the Koreans have developed spatial displacement engines.

(What? Everyone else has a crazy-ass conspiracy theory! Why can't I have one?!)

Danny Beckett

:D

I'm gonna ask the question...

Danny Beckett

05:29

0

Q: What was Korean Air 672 doing during the Malaysia Air 370 disaster?

In the first part of this YouTube video, you can see KAL672 supposedly rocket across the ocean: You can replay this on Flight Radar 24 at this link. Essentially, my question is, what is this oddity that FR24 is showing? (to ward off conspiracy theorist nuts).

roe

06:25

3k3 visits/day? damn

Stack Exchange

07:48

This Day in Aviation: 14 March 1908

posted on March 14, 2014 by Bryan Swopes

14 March 1908: Henry Farman makes the the first flight in his modified Voisin-Farman I bis, an airplane built by the Voisin brothers. The airplane was a biplane with a canard configuration, meaning the elevators for pitch control are mounted at the front. It was 44 feet, 2 inches (13.45 meters) long with a wingspan […] The post 14 March 1908 appeared first on This Day in Aviation.

roe

08:19

@roe I'll ask DFS on monday — DeltaLima 1 min ago

@DeltaLima Cool :)

Checking the NfL, it appears I'm mistaken. It must've been a remnant of old phraseology or something on the test. I've deleted the question.

roe

09:38

@DeltaLima there you are :) see my previous post

DeltaLima

@roe I was just looking for the question :-)

I have a meeting with DFS on monday and I'll try and get an answer. We're a bunch of techies though and no OPS people in the room, so I am not sure if I can get the info.

roe

It was during phraseology (BZF) course/test; I'm guessing it was simply old phraseology, since he had his paper he was reading from

I'm guessing he'd been using the same stuff for years and years

DeltaLima

I think I have heard it occasionally but I can't remember where. Might be in Germany indeed. End of next week I might meet with more OPS folk. I'll ask around during the coffee break.

roe

@DeltaLima Ok, cool. If it turns out it is indeed in use, perhaps we can undelete the question, just to keep it on the site.

DeltaLima

I'd rather delete the use of it :-) I agree with you it seems unsafe

roe

09:47

@DeltaLima oh yeah, definitely. It got me confused even in a classroom setting (although not as confused as the guy, who had difficulties with even semi-rapid English, when I went off his script and answered with at-or-above)

DeltaLima

@roe I might be able to answer in minute. I'll call a LH pilot :-)

roe

:)

DeltaLima

10:13

@roe According to my friend at LH, At or above is used in germany as well.

He didn't recall hearing not below

roe

@DeltaLima Cool, thanks for checking! Yeah, according to the NfL (as I mentioned), it's supposed to be that way.

DeltaLima

That is very strange, must be a mistake.

roe

@DeltaLima I meant according to the NfL it's supposed to be at-or-above/below (actually "at <altitude> or above/below"), so that all adds up. The phraseology course/test though was broken and/or outdated it appears

DeltaLima

@roe, understood. I meant the test is wrong. Happened to me once as well, I failed a test for access to the ramp because the test was wrong. After complaining they agreed and passed me. But subsequently they failed a college who answered differently to the same question :-)

roe

10:28

@DeltaLima What kind of test was that?

DeltaLima

When you need access to the airside part of the airport without being a pilot on his way to his aircraft, you need to obtain clearance. For this you have to take an exam to make sure you understand the dangers of walking between aircraft, the rights of security personnel, who to call in case of emergency etc etc etc. Nothing difficult just a long list of rules.

The question was about the right of way of a fire truck. It was not stated that the truck was using sirens or flashing lights, so in that case it is just a normal vehicle, and I answered accordingly.

shortstheory

@roe:

in this video: youtube.com/watch?v=7P9OAng32F0

why the heck are the runways so bumpy!

DeltaLima

@shortstheory nice video. Due to the zoom it looks like a vertical landing in the beginning :-)

shortstheory

thanks lol, but I didn't find it! IIRC roe posted it in the chat transcript xD

roe

10:54

@shortstheory They're not, they're just very long, using the telescopic lens the depth gets 'squished' so the elevation changes down the runway look very abrupt. As @DeltaLima it also looks like the landing is vertical when they're (usually) coming in at a 3 degree glideslope

roe

11:42

5 hours ago, by roe

3k3 visits/day? damn

@BretCopeland See, being an optimist sometimes pays off ;)

ratchet freak

or we just need more crashes so people remain interested

roe

12:45

@ratchetfreak Aha! I see, so @voretaq7 intercepted the Malaysian B777 with his PA28, and made it disappear to drive up the stats? Nice move!

Martin Vegter

13:44

can somebody please recommend a website, where experts talk about the missing Malaysian plane. I am confused by the conflicting and contradictory news from regular news sources. These reporters don't know what they are talking about

roe

@MartinVegter avherald.com is a good starting point, just don't read the comments :)

I also like liveatc.net, but as a general rule, forums are bound to have a rather poor signal to noise ratio in cases like this.

Jay Carr

@roe I just re-asked the Flight Radar 24 question in a far more general way. I did editorialize just a bit (though not about 370), just so people could see what kinds of errors Flight Radar 24 is prone to. But overall I think it's on topic now.

Plus, it's a question I've actually had for a while, which is nice.

Aaron

@MartinVegter pprune is also a little better than the vast tracts of the internet

Jay Carr

I do watch FR24 just for fun at times...those planes just kind of jump all over the place on occassion. It'd be fun to know exactly why.

Aaron

airliners.net is not a place for educated discussion on a topic, though

roe

13:56

@JayCarr Cool, thanks.

@JayCarr My guess is that someone is simply feeding it old data

Jay Carr

@roe To be honest, I'm not sure where the data comes from to begin with. It's always been magic to me.

The other answer made it look like volutneers with radar are doing it?

roe

@JayCarr It's volunteer ADS-B receivers

Jay Carr

Ah, that's the new standard, right?

roe

so they're listening in on the transponder responses of ADS-B-equipped planes

no radar involved, just an antenna

@JayCarr there's a thread on liveatc.net on how to build your own

well, sorta new

But considering that most aircraft are decades old, it's really new :)

Jay Carr

lol, fair enough. Is there going to come a point when all aircraft have to have ADS-B?

That works out over the ocean as well, doesn't it? No...that doesn't sound right...

roe

14:01

no international rule, but the US requires it from 2020

EU is 2017 I think

but there might be restrictions (like only commercial or something) don't know

@JayCarr Well, the "B" part means broadcast, which means it doesn't need an interrogator, it'll simply periodically transmit regardless if anyone's listening

so if you have a receiver on a boat somewhere, it'll work

Jay Carr

So if we just put a few pylons out in the middle of the ocean with maybe some solar panels and an ADS-B receiver we could easily track planes across the ocean? (By easily I mean "feasibly" I suppose).

roe

@JayCarr you'll need to forward the data somehow, and the ocean is huge..

Jay Carr

Mmm, true. I wonder how the horizon would play with that as well. If a commercial flight is, generally, going to be over FL300, I wonder how many bouys it would take to give the entire ocean coverage with a redundancy for every area as well...

"A lot" is going to be my guess.

casey

Yea, you'd need a sat uplink and and a geostationary satellite. Plus buoys can move over time, so you need a good gps and a motor to track the satellite transmitter to the satellite. it would be complicated.

roe

I honestly fail to see the benefit

casey

14:08

And we can barely maintain the buoys in the pacific that monitor ENSO, so good luck getting that money

roe

it'd cost a lot more to set up and maintain, than to search for downed aircraft (which, luckily, are very few)

Jay Carr

Benefit of this system (which, yes, this system is dubious) or fail to see the benefit of tracking flights more accurately over the ocean?

roe

both

but primarily the first :)

Jay Carr

Yeah, to be fair, my mind is straining to see a need either.

Except for the nerd part of me that just wants accurate tracking so I can watch the planes and know I'm looking at real data ;)

roe

:14282431 up-arrow in the chat edit-box let's you modify a previous line :)

Jay Carr

14:10

There, thanks :)

Yeah, from a safety perspective, it's not like knowing the exact moment a plane crashes is really going to change much (sadly). And, concerning flight 370, I somehow doubt planes completely disapearing is going to become a common enough problem to warrant monitoring every movement of every flight.

roe

@JayCarr In this case though, I really doubt that an ocean sprinkled with ADS-B receivers would've made any difference whatsover

Jay Carr

Right, the transponder was off anyway, right?

roe

@JayCarr We don't know

Jay Carr

Are there any real facts at the moment? Other than we know that we can't find it?

roe

It was obviously within radar range, so for some reason it stopped transmitting. Could've been a bird strike taking out the transponder antenna for all we know :)

Jay Carr

14:21

True enough... The US is saying that the plane may have flown another 5 hours. Any idea why they think that?

roe

@JayCarr That pretty much sums it up, yes. The facts are they stopped transmitting a lot of stuff (transponder, radio, ACARS), they didn't arrive at their destination, and they would've run out of fuel by now

They have found debris and oil-slicks all over the place, but nothing to indicate whether they are related to the incident aircraft.

@JayCarr they may have flown another 5 hours, because that's how much fuel they had on board

Aaron

did that 777 have the optional in-flight refueling package?

roe

@Aaron :D

ratchet freak

maybe it had a refuel probe installed and a refuel plane was nearby

it could be all over the world with that

roe

@ratchetfreak or maybe, aliens!

Jay Carr

14:29

Nah, time traveling Leninists.

Don't know how it's going to help with the revolution, but it will.

@ratchetfreak Thanks for the edit there, I'm such a dunce sometimes...

ratchet freak

15:20

should we remove the mas370 tag?

it seems to invite only crud

0

Q: remove mas370 tag

there are currently 6 mas370 questions (of which 2 are closed). However each of these could be asked without referencing the missing plane. I suggest removing the tag from these and removing the tag entirely

discussion tags

voretaq7

@ratchetfreak Absolutely.

mas370

I'm not against the idea of accident-specific tags, but none of these are really accident-specific

roe

@voretaq7 Agree, that was the point I was trying to make in @DannyBeckett's question

2

Q: What was Korean Air 672 doing at the time of Malaysia Air 370's disappearance?

In the first part of this YouTube video, you can see an aircraft supposedly flying 4x faster than the surrounding aircraft, at the time the Malaysian 777 went missing. After replaying this on Flight Radar 24, KAL672 departs Kuala Lumpa a short while before MAS370. It then does a 180, flies back ...

accidents radar

Stack Exchange

0

Q: Why do we need electronics?

From Wikipedia: Avionics are the electronic systems used on aircraft, artificial satellites, and spacecraft. Avionic systems include communications, navigation, the display and management of multiple systems, and the hundreds of systems that are fitted to aircraft to perform individual func...

discussion tags tag-synonyms

2

Q: remove mas370 tag

there are currently 6 mas370 questions (of which 2 are closed). However each of these could be asked without referencing the missing plane. I suggest removing the tag from these and removing the tag entirely

discussion tags

voretaq7

15:36

@StackExchange Now the "Why do we need electronics?" question is a bit more interesting :)

AsheeshR

15:47

@voretaq7 aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2278/…

Without the specific context, the last two questions are pointless.

voretaq7

@AsheeshR I don't think so - Is an ACARS standard on all commercial airliners? (I've never seen a recently-built one without ACARS, but is that because the manufacturers bolt them in, or because the customers ordered them? ; Similarly what can you collect from the ACARS (I know they can downlink engine parameters and text messages from the crew, but what else can they send?)

so rather than being focused on just MJ370 it's focused on ACARS and its capabilities

Manfred

16:09

just wondering, can i send a private message to somebody on SE?

i've been looking around but i don't seem to have found anything

DeltaLima

I think you can start a chat room together, but I am not sure how private that is.

voretaq7

@Manfred not really. You can create a chatroom for them

Manfred

needed to send somebody a dropbox link which i didn't want to be visible to everybody. i told him to post his email here instead.

Aaron

SE on purpose does not have any way to have private communications between users

If you find a friendly mod, you can put something in chat and then have it be super-deleted

DeltaLima

@Manfred third year flight dynamics slide maybe :-) ?

Manfred

16:17

no, i'm still first year :P judging by the content he was showing it was better than nothing i think

DeltaLima

Ok, cool. Introduction to flight? That's where the love starts

AsheeshR

@voretaq7 So, if I actually want to know about ACARS on 777s in the context of 370, I should post a separate question?

voretaq7

@AsheeshR like "What kind of data did we get from the MAS370 ACARS system before the plane was abducted by the aliens?" - yeah I think that'd be a separate question (but the answers is "nobody's really told us anything authoritative yet" :-)

I like your existing question - it's a great "What the heck is ACARS good for?" question

DeltaLima

Hey ACARS is great! It's like the SMS text messaging system of aviation!

AsheeshR

@voretaq7 I was thinking more like "What data does Malaysian Airlines collect from their planes' ACARS? What do they collect specifically from 777s?"

voretaq7

16:22

@DeltaLima ohai2dspch hv beerz w8ing 4 us. pax was terrible. KTHXBAI

DeltaLima

You can send things like "Hey I just found the other pilots Rayban glasses here in the cockpit, they look really cool on me. If he wants them back I'd expect a good bottle of wine" to the AOC :-)

voretaq7

@DeltaLima what do you think about re-adding mas370 & accident-investigation to aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2149/…

DeltaLima

@voretaq7 I think accident-investigation is one we definately need

voretaq7

that seems like the most "only about this specific incident" question (though there was the Fosett search way back when too...)

DeltaLima

And having accident specific tags, although each would probably not get a 100 questions, helps as well

Well, add a Fosset-crash tag to it too.

voretaq7

16:25

@DeltaLima yeah we definitely need that one. Accident-specific tags kinda makes sense, but they'll be a sea of closed questions if the investigations are ongoing ("What happened to the plane?" style)

AsheeshR

@voretaq7 You may want to edit the title then. The current title doesnt really tie in with the body, and I cant think of something that summarizes the question well.

DeltaLima

Yes, the good thing about accidents is that they create a lot of traffic to this site, the bad thing is the low quality of many of the posts.

voretaq7

but then you've got ones that have been analyzed in depth like UA232 or ValuJet, etc.

DeltaLima

Oh, and the fact that an accident happened is bad in itself as well of course

roe

@DeltaLima "We need to generate some more accidents!" :)

voretaq7

16:27

@AsheeshR "What kind of data is sent back to base via ACARS?" sound reasonable?

@DeltaLima "It sucks that the guy had a heart attack, but his results are such an interesting data point!" -- Actual quote from our medical research team.

DeltaLima

@voretaq7 The way I see it is that as soon as an accident happens we create a tag. We than tag all related questions, which makes it easier to monitor the crap that will be flowing in. If the accident reports are published we can look back and laugh at the stupid questions that were asked.

voretaq7

@DeltaLima tags are created by using them (which means we need to monitor the crap because newbs don't have the rep to create tags), but other than that I generally agree

the only reason I untagged that stuff is it wasn't really specific to this incident - that's what made them ask, but the questions themselves are general how does x work / why does it work like that

Danny Beckett

what kinda stuff was tagged with mas370?

(I know DL added it to my KAL672 question briefly)

DeltaLima

I tagged every question that mentioned MAS370

voretaq7

@DannyBeckett that one (which I may merge with the other FlightRadar24 question), the ACARS one, the transponder one

the FDR one which I'll probably delete later today

and the satellite one which I'm really leaning toward putting the tag back on unless you guys think we can genericize it

Danny Beckett

16:42

I can genericize my FR24 question if you want.... that's essentially the info I was after anyway

DeltaLima

Or we migrate it to space exploration to do them a favour :-) (They provided us with the skydiver didn't they)

@DannyBeckett I think I answer your FR24 question here. aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2269/…

voretaq7

@DannyBeckett Jay beat you too it :)

Danny Beckett

sure... but it's basically a dupe

voretaq7

I'll probably dup yours to that one - having one specifically about MH370 isn't a bad idea

Danny Beckett

ok sure

Jay Carr

16:49

@DannyBeckett Sorry Danny, didn't mean to steal your question there. I just had several other FR24 questions I was hoping for answer as well. So rather than suggest edits I just spun up a new question.

Danny Beckett

hey no worries :)

I like FR24 too so I'm looking forward to seeing the other questions you ask!

Jay Carr

It was basically a multi-part question on why data on FR24 is so screwy sometimes.

@DeltaLima did a great job of answer it in some detail.

shortstheory

does anyone have an opinion about decompression on MH370?

Jay Carr

lol, I've decided having an opinion at this point is probably dangerous.

Danny Beckett

@shortstheory There is an outstanding AD related to it, but nothing is known yet

shortstheory

16:51

My dad was telling me about it, but I find it unlikely that the pilots would be rendered unconscious because of the O2 masks up front

Jay Carr

My only speculation is that the Bermuda Triangle took a short vacation to S. East Asia this year.

3

shortstheory

and the time of useful conciousness isn't that low at FL350 either

Jay Carr

@shortstheory Pretty much. Everyone should have had auto-deployed masks...

shortstheory

they would probably have at least a minute to down the masks

Jay Carr

There's a question on here somewhere that addresses useful conciousness specifically.

shortstheory

16:52

*don

Danny Beckett

@JayCarr ah cool, that sounds interesting! This was the only other question I had about it:

17

Q: I just saw a plane drop off online radar; should I do anything about it?

I was watching Flight Radar 24, positioned near my house, to see what planes I could spot, and noticed a Cessna 550's transponder just dropped off @ 5,325 ft in a high-speed descent! Is there something I should do about it? Or do I assume somebody in ATC has seen it? Is there anything anyone sh...

air-traffic-control safety emergency radar

Jay Carr

It was something like 2 or 3 minutes.

DeltaLima

@shortstheory Decompression is my #1 suspicion

shortstheory

yeah, about that much

but there would certainly be enough time to get the masks back on

Jay Carr

@DannyBeckett I remember that one, had some good answer I thought.

shortstheory

16:53

plus the plane would still be transmitting data!

Jay Carr

@DeltaLima Why?

Danny Beckett

@JayCarr We should probably make flightradar24 or online-radar

DeltaLima

I find a terrorist/hijack situation unlikely because there have been no distress calls

shortstheory

if a window cracks on the 777...would closing the outflow valves be enough to maintain cabin altitude?

like on the Concorde?

Jay Carr

@DeltaLima - But wouldn't they have masks and such for depressurization? Or are you saying it would be part of a larger systems failure?

@DannyBeckett I like it!

DeltaLima

16:55

The aircraft is not found on the place where it was last observed by ATC surveillance, so apparently it did not crash immediately

shortstheory

um yeah

but even in event of decompression, it would still be transmitting data

Jay Carr

So, you're thinking along these lines?

1999 South Dakota Learjet crash

On October 25, 1999, a chartered Learjet 35 was scheduled to fly from Orlando, Florida to Dallas, Texas. Early in the flight the aircraft, which was cruising at altitude on autopilot, quickly lost cabin pressure. All on board were incapacitated due to hypoxia — a lack of oxygen. The aircraft failed to make the westward turn toward Dallas over north Florida. It continued flying over the southern and midwestern United States for almost four hours and . The plane ran out of fuel and crashed into a field near Aberdeen, South Dakota after an uncontrolled descent. The four passengers on board...

shortstheory

unless all the transponders got ripped out

hmm

Danny Beckett

@DeltaLima apparently two comms systems were disconnected separately

DeltaLima

Explosive decompression at that altitude, during night when most people are sleeping might prevent people from putting their masks on

ratchet freak

16:57

pilot O2 masks don't deploy automatically

shortstheory

@DannyBeckett

Danny Beckett

not sure exactly what the reporter was referring to... possibly transponders

shortstheory

could you give me the link to the AD article?

Danny Beckett

@shortstheory I heard it on ABC News. I'll try to get a link

shortstheory

@DeltaLima: but the pilots would surely be able to get the masks on

Jay Carr

16:57

@ratchetfreak But wouldn't you get a warning? And who wouldn't put a mask on after the warning?

DeltaLima

Damage to the aircraft front roof area in the forward fuselage might take out a number of comms systems

shortstheory

having unconscious pax might actually be a good thing :)

ratchet freak

there is a warning when the cabin O2 masks deploy but that already means there is lower O2

shortstheory

rather than a horde of 200+ screaming pax

ratchet freak

and pilots might not react properly

Jay Carr

16:58

@ratchetfreak but in a case of rapid depressurization... It seems like you'd know in time.

What if it was CO2?

ratchet freak

Helios Airways Flight 522

Helios Airways Flight 522 was a scheduled Helios Airways passenger flight that crashed into a mountain on 14 August 2005 at 12:04 pm EEST, north of Marathon and Varnavas, Greece, whilst flying from Larnaca, Cyprus to Athens, Greece. A lack of oxygen incapacitated the crew, leading to the aircraft's eventual crash after running out of fuel. Rescue teams located the wreckage near the community of Grammatiko, from Athens. All 115 passengers and 6 crew on board the aircraft were killed. With 121 fatalities, this was the deadliest aviation disaster in Greek history, surpassing the 1969 cras...

Jay Carr

Or do I mean CO?

DeltaLima

@shortstheory The pilots should be able to get their masks on, but did they work? Perhaps not. Empty o2 bottles have been there before

shortstheory

@ratchetfreak

Danny Beckett

abcnews.go.com/International/…

shortstheory

16:59

thanks!

i was looking for that crash!

Danny Beckett

There's a mandatory ad unfortunately

shortstheory

thanks Mr Beckett!

Danny Beckett

Two systems turned off.. one at 01:07. One at 01:21 @DeltaLima

it's in that video ^

ratchet freak

that crashed because the cabin pressure wasn't regulated and pilot were (presumably) suffering from hypoxia

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