TRPG General Chat

Jonn_Underwood

22:01

Ok I'm back my iPhone has 3G Internet

BESW

I'll be erratic most of the day.

[so what's new? everyone wondered]

Jonn_Underwood

@BESW that idea sounds good

For editing

But what did you think about the writing?

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

I wonder if there's a SE site where I could discuss TCG game design.

BESW

22:18

@William'MindWorX'Mariager boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…

Does that do it, or is it not designy enough?

Oblivious Sage

William'WindWorX'Mariager?

oh, haha, that is his full username

chat was just showing me William

i was like, "where did all that extra stuff come from?"

BESW

@ObliviousSage It's especially amusing if you adopt my D&D group's convention that excess apostrophes in names should be pronounced "boing."

2

In our last campaign we had Daeboingeravin and Takboingthaboing.

Oblivious Sage

b'ut i't's n'ot q'u'al'ity f'an'tas'y wi'thout ex'tra ap'o'str'a'phes!

BESW

@ObliviousSage Obviously.

shatterspike1

aww, for a second there I thought his name was ObviousSage

Which would have made that line a whole lot better

Oblivious Sage

22:22

obviously not

and to the author of xkcd, who i normally agree with: I liked Anathem.

LitheOhm

@BESW very nice. I was just quoting the movie Finding Forrester myslef but your explanation is nice

Oblivious Sage

it was slow, yes, but it was good

BESW

@LitheOhm I live with a professor of writing education.

LitheOhm

@ObliviousSage isn't Anathem the one you brought up during the Aristotle discussion days ago?

Oblivious Sage

yep

LitheOhm

22:24

@BESW golf clap I wish I could be so lucky

BESW

I can just barely hold my own in literary theory, but when it comes to practical writing techniques and theories...

LitheOhm

oh, right. Asterisks. Oops

Oblivious Sage

it's not quite as good as some of Neal Stephenson's other stuff, like Snow Crash or Diamond Age, but it was still good

LitheOhm

@ObliviousSage it looked like a fiction to me, how does it relate to Aristotle?

@BESW I spout grammar well. But it's not intuitive - my first drafts require a lot of trimming still, even after online writing for at least two months straight

BESW

@LitheOhm I know nothing about Anathem, but I'd guess that question is like asking what Notes from the Underground has to do with Soviet rhetoric.

Oblivious Sage

22:28

it's sci-fi, but Neal Stephenson likes to pick a couple theoretical technologies and really extrapolate their effect on society; i won't spoil which technology that is in Anathem (it doesn't become clear until quite a ways in), but one of the things a lot of the people in that book talk about is the idea,

BESW

Fiction, especially speculative fiction, is ripe soil for sociophilosophical explorations.

Oblivious Sage

which I believe is from Aristotle (though it could be Plato) that everything that exists is sort of a shadow/hologram/representation of a perfect concept of that thing that exists in a higher, purer reality

LitheOhm

@ObliviousSage k

BESW

[composes a *Flowers on the Wall* parody]
*Countin' shadows on the wall / That don't bother me at all*

LitheOhm

Sounds Plato to me, but I've already had to stick foot-in-mouth on the topic of philosophy a few times in here

Oblivious Sage

22:30

@LitheOhm: i'd go into more detail about how it's relevant, but that would be spoilerific

LitheOhm

haha. Alright

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: bonus points for Pulp Fiction reference

BESW

Theory of Forms

Plato's theory of Forms or theory of Ideas asserts that non-material abstract (but substantial) forms (or ideas), and not the material world of change known to us through sensation, possess the highest and most fundamental kind of reality. When used in this sense, the word form is often capitalized. Plato speaks of these entities only through the characters (primarily Socrates) of his dialogues who sometimes suggest that these Forms are the only true objects of study that can provide us with genuine knowledge; thus even apart from the very controversial status of the theory, Plato's own v...

LitheOhm

Allegory of the cave. Yeah, that's the one I thought

all we see are shadows of what the world truly is

BESW

@ObliviousSage I haven't seen Pulp Fiction, though I'm aware the song is in it.

LitheOhm

22:32

my monitor is not a perfect square, it's just as close as it gets to the perfect square, the pure form of what is "square"

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: you should remedy that

LitheOhm

agreed

BESW

John McClane makes a reference to it in Die Hard as well. It was enough of a cultural highlight in 1966 that it still works its way into various works.

@LitheOhm If your monitor is a square to any degree of perfection, your monitor is weird.

Oblivious Sage

i don't recall that, but it's been a while (too long, in fact) since i've seen the first Die Hard

@LitheOhm: what BESW said

LitheOhm

@BESW haha well yes. The screen is what I meant

BESW

22:34

@ObliviousSage Ah, my bad, it's in Die Hard with a Vengeance. It's how he describes his retirement.

@LitheOhm Ditto that.

LitheOhm

it's a flat screen? As close it it can get to a perfect square?

Oblivious Sage

it should be rectangular

BESW

@LitheOhm A typical computer screen's sides are a ratio of about 3:4.

LitheOhm

fair enough

Oblivious Sage

16:10 or 16:9 unless it's quite a few years old

Jonn_Underwood

22:35

Parked outside somebody's house waiting....

LitheOhm

yeah, no leeway here :P I was incorrect

Oblivious Sage

actually the 3:4 ratio is pretty old, most monitors these days are widescreen

LitheOhm

@Jonn_Underwood did you bring my pizza?

this is an old monitor

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

BESW

@ObliviousSage If he's mistaking it for a square, it's not widescreen.

Oblivious Sage

22:36

@Jonn_Underwood: ...waiting to murder them? Are you in a horror movie? I have popcorn!

LitheOhm

my laptop lcd got messed up. I'm working on an external one we had lying around

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: he could be almost blind

LitheOhm

Those HP minis are freakin' tiny

Jonn_Underwood

Waiting for my mother to get a sewing machine

Oblivious Sage

@Jonn_Underwood: Oh. I would settle in, maybe take a nap. That's the kind of thing that can take a while.

LitheOhm

22:37

@Jonn_Underwood oh, not my house then. Although there's one around here. Darn, I thought I was actually somebody.

Jonn_Underwood

But murder would work too, what's your preferred method?

LitheOhm

@Jonn_Underwood bludgeon. With a sewing machine.

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

LitheOhm

Gotta love that circumstantial irony

Oblivious Sage

@Jonn_Underwood: Seconding LitheOhm's suggestion.

BESW

22:38

@Jonn_Underwood I am reminded of a story about a princess who releases a particularly nasty genie.

LitheOhm

hehe

Jonn_Underwood

Which story?

BESW

Depending on how long he'd been in the lamp when you released him, he'd grant you wishes, or kill you.

LitheOhm

Sort of like depending on how long my fiance's been asleep. I dig it

Jonn_Underwood

Well that's quite a risk rubbing on that lamp

Lol

BESW

22:39

He popped out and told the princess her only choice was the manner of her death.

She promptly said "Old age."

LitheOhm

haha

Jonn_Underwood

That's a terribly boring way to die

LitheOhm

Yeah, but long-lived

it's the PC outwitting the DM

Jonn_Underwood

I would pick falling from above the stratosphere

BESW

It soon turned out that the genie was fudging with his dates, because it was rather shameful in his community to grant wishes instead of killing whoever frees you.

Oblivious Sage

22:40

@BESW: isn't that from Patricia Wrede's Enchanted Forest Chronicles? (hilarious if you've never read them, meant for young adults)

BESW

@ObliviousSage Yes.

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

BESW

So they compromised, he gave her and her companion a wish each, and they'd die in they way they'd requested eventually, so it was win-win.

LitheOhm

what did her companion request? The same?

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

I don't think "of old age" would be a valid answer

Oblivious Sage

22:43

and they also repaid him by putting a big sign on his lamp/bottle saying "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL (some date well past the point when he was allowed to start killing people)"

BESW

@LitheOhm Oh, she'd been speaking for both of them ("Thou and thy paramour") when she requested old age.

Jonn_Underwood

If i was the genie

LitheOhm

ah

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood The genie tried to clarify that they had to die before the sun set, or something like that, but Cimorene is far too savvy to fall for that junk.

LitheOhm

I'd twist it but putting them into some sort of scenario where they'd rather not live. Ie. Aladdin's "you'd be surprised what you can live through" genie motto

BESW

22:44

@ObliviousSage Oh, right. I'd forgotten that.

Oblivious Sage

Cimorene is too savvy to fall for anything, really; that's what makes the series so funny, she sees through & defeats all the tropes.

BESW

The Enchanted Forest Chronicles had a strong influence on my DMing style.

All the side characters are fully developed with believable-yet-ridiculous motivations and agenda of their own.

Gypsy Jack showed up in several of my campaigns.

Jonn_Underwood

Only other person I've seen DM besides myself is Chris Perkins

Oblivious Sage

I forget Gypsy Jack, is he the wandering merchant?

BESW

@ObliviousSage Yes.

Jonn_Underwood

22:46

That sounds like a good read what is it called?

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood First book is Dealing with Dragons.

Jonn_Underwood

The enchanted forest chronicles?

Oooh

BESW

Jack was perfect for equipping a party that was wandering in the wilderness with wealth to spend and no place to spend it.

Jonn_Underwood

I'll see if my library has it

BESW

He'd wander up and start pitching not-quite-the-right-item sales.

The party loved him. They got him a dog to keep him company on his travels, and later on set him up as the center of a lucrative trade deal between the local gnome city and the nomadic jann.

Jonn_Underwood

22:49

Lol what a ridicules scene "as your supplies run low you see a strange man on a cart in the distance, he stops and waves towards you through the sandstorm"

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood Pretty much.

He never had exactly what you wanted, but he'd always have something close enough.

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

BESW

And you could ask him to keep an eye out for specific items on his travels, if you didn't mind waiting a while.

The main danger was that he'd try to sell you anything he had, and would also try to buy anything that looked resalable.

Silver-tongued man that he was, he could talk the boots off your feet.

Jonn_Underwood

"Do you have a a fishing pole" "nope, but I've gots one of dem fancy harpoons"

BESW

"I don't have a flying carpet in stock right now, but these seven-league boots are hardly used!"

Jonn_Underwood

22:52

Lol funny character

Do you think having my gaming sessions on my blog would be interesting?

BESW

I ran him as a gnome (expert class) in a brightly colored caravan. He had no magic himself, but he often traded goods for protection spells with his wizard clients.

Jonn_Underwood

That's exactly how imagined him a gnome.

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood Actual Play blogs are a mixed bag. Generally you need to be very gifted to tell them in a way that appeals to people outside the immediate group.

Jonn_Underwood

You sure like huh?

Gnomes

You sure like gnomes huh?

BESW

I usually ignore them. In that particular campaign I'd given myself a specific goal of developing them in interesting directions.

Jonn_Underwood

22:55

Oh ok

LitheOhm

@BESW agreed

Jonn_Underwood

Are anime style drawings any good?

BESW

Typical D&D 3.5 gnomes are stretched too far: they're nature-oriented and mechanically mind, mischievous individualists and community-oriented thinkers...

@Jonn_Underwood Not for your purposes, not now.

LitheOhm

there's a clear distinction between "recounting my story for enjoyment" and "retelling this story for your enjoyment"

BESW

Learn to draw from life before you stylize.

Jonn_Underwood

22:57

That's true

Ok

LitheOhm

@Jonn_Underwood if it's what you like to draw then go for it. Otherwise develop your own style first

Jonn_Underwood

I like the pictures in pathfinder rulebooks

BESW

@LitheOhm He needs to develop a discerning eye first; drawing from stylized images doesn't help your eye see what's there instead of just seeing of your brain's shorthand for what you see.

Jonn_Underwood

If I could make sketches like that it would awesome

BESW

Draw from life and from da Vinci's sketches.

Jonn_Underwood

22:58

Yes I will stick to that for now

LitheOhm

@BESW hm

@BESW You have more expertise than I here, I believe

BESW

@LitheOhm I've got him on the most basic "hao i draw" progression.

LitheOhm

haha

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

BESW

But it holds true.

Look at Picasso's blue period; he learned how to make things look real before he went off the deep end style-wise.

LitheOhm

23:00

Da Vinci and from life?

Jonn_Underwood

I think tomorrow ill try something a little more complicated

BESW

@LitheOhm Aye. Draw every day. Carry a sketchbook, draw during the few minutes of free time that add up during the day.

LitheOhm

does it also vary with what/how you want to draw? Like from my angle, I'd rather be able to draw distinguishing facial features than perfect body proportions

Jonn_Underwood

Was the writing interesting?

BESW

@LitheOhm It honestly doesn't. You'd focus on what you want to specialize in, but any drawing from life is going to train your eye and hand.

LitheOhm

23:01

k

BESW

Don't draw from photos or illustrations (except da Vinci's sketches).

Jonn_Underwood

I won't, I put my d4 on the table and drew it then tried to copy the shadow that formed

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood Yes, it's a good pair of sketches; each focuses on something different.

LitheOhm

when I was most in the groove of it I was just drawing from mental image. At a certain point I could nearly see the image on the paper, before I drew it. Know of any way to hone that? I'm a lot more of a rapid visualization drawer than not

BESW

@LitheOhm Draw from life. Honestly, it's the best way to improve.

LitheOhm

23:04

lol k

Jonn_Underwood

It looked better after I took a picture of it

BESW

Drawing from your head doesn't give you new skills so much as it ingrains your existing habits.

Da Vinci's sketches are about learning techniques from a master: he'll teach you about line variation, shading styles, important vs unimportant lines, and redrawing.

LitheOhm

got it

Jonn_Underwood

@LitheOhm BESW has this down.

He knows what he's talking about

BESW

There are also some specific exercises that can be helpful, but they can be brought in at any time.

LitheOhm

23:05

heh. Yeah. I'm quite novice.

BESW

Draw with a white and black pencil on grey paper, for example.

Jonn_Underwood

@BESW what did you think about my writing?

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood You've got a good sense of movement and progression, and you're not bound by many of the taught conventions which restrict most beginning authors. On the other hand, you've got some strong cliches; particularly tired words and phrases. Your sentence structures are varied, which is good, but you tend toward run-on sentences, which is not.

Commas are not your friend, whatever they whisper to you in your sleep.

Jonn_Underwood

Have to fix those run on sentences

LitheOhm

this link changed my life

damnit

well, regardless

Jonn_Underwood

23:10

You have it to me earlier

BESW

Nearly every time a beginning writer (including myself) uses a comma, it would be better served as a period or removed entirely. Occasionally it should be a colon, semi-colon, or dash, but those are tricky.

LitheOhm

no, that was semicolons

this is comma splices

Jonn_Underwood

Oh ok

Pat benatar=awesome

LitheOhm

this link work that time?

BESW

Apparently an entire generation was taught in elementary school that commas go where you breathe. [face/palm]

LitheOhm

23:11

ah ha, had them backwards

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

LitheOhm

I was among those.

and now I have the lifelong battle of run-on sentences.

BESW

 [text](link.com)

LitheOhm

the brackets go first

Jonn_Underwood

I have to fix it if I'm going to be a writer

BESW

23:13

@Jonn_Underwood Here's the thing: there's no right and wrong way to write, except for the conventions which accompany certain fields, contexts, and disciplines.

LitheOhm

I just have to be sure to stay on top of them. After I finish a paper, for instance, I edit once looking specifically for comma splices and run-on sentences

@BESW yes

BESW

Talented authors ignore the rules freely, because they learned them and now know that they're more like guidelines and should be broken as appropriate.

It's about control, not obedience.

Jonn_Underwood

Like DMing

What did you mean by clichés?

LitheOhm

Definitely. Some rules are broken when it's convenient but also to make a point. The word "and" is usually not used to start a sentence, but it can be to emphasize a point. And that's how that works.

BESW

What's important is your ability to communicate clearly. Learn rules of style and grammar so you can use them to aid in communicating. And learn to recognize when they are actually getting in the way.

@LitheOhm See example A.

@Jonn_Underwood Specifically, or generally?

Jonn_Underwood

23:15

Both

BESW

One moment.

Read this while I look for a Google service I haven't used in a while.

Jonn_Underwood

Ok

LitheOhm

@Jonn_Underwood on that note, I'll be back to comment later. I don't plan on being a writer, I am a writer. How good I am at it or how popular I am is up to time and effort. Helps to see yourself in the position you're wanting to attain instead of putting it off as something to go for.

Jonn_Underwood

That is a good point to make

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood So, phrases like "howling wind" and "the cold nipped at my bare skin" are there because you've read them so much that they're firmly embedded in your brain as the way to describe such things.

As a writer you will constantly be struggling to recognize this when it rears its head, and again it's a matter of control: sometimes cliches are okay to use, but usually you should be working to say thing in your own voice.

In terms of voice, you've also got a small issue with consistency; "large predators" doesn't fit with the voice used in the rest of the piece.

This is mostly nitpicky at your current level though. You've got a sense of place and atmosphere. I feel like I know something about your narrator; the kind of person he is, the kind of relationships he has and the challenges he faces daily.

And when you voyage back, you'll see that fur blankets, nipping cold, and a chill wind giving him the shivers, are all almost the same thing.

So you'll think about what's important here; how can you say "it's cold" such that it also contributes to the scene or story in other ways, and does the repetition of the idea have value?

It might have value or it might not; this is again a matter of control: if you say "it's cold" three times in two lines, you should do it on purpose and for reason. And again, do this in the voyage back, not the voyage out. In the voyage out, just write and don't worry.

Oh, another thing you do well: when you vary your sentences, you do it well. For example, after a paragraph of ideas expressed in extended form, you have the abrupt "No" as a transition, followed by a short declarative sentence before slipping back into your regular long-form style.

LitheOhm

23:52

yay metacomposition

one step nearer to full-fledged editor status XD

BESW

Grats!

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