TRPG General Chat

Aether

14:45

Are we going to end up with a mass of "What is the origin of [D&D Monster]?" questions?

wax eagle

@Aether those questions should be limited to iconic brand monsters, (beholders, chromatic dragons, etc). If someone asks "what is the origin of D&D orcs" that should get thrown out as "honey badger doesn't give a s**t"

(that's an inside joke, reference here: twitter.com/codinghorror/status/85134439906152448)

Aether

What constitutes "iconic brand monsters"?

Jonn_Underwood

@Aether Monsters that were made specifically for the game or monsters that were altered in a way to make them specific to D&D

Aether

If they were made specifically for the game - isn't that the origin?

I mean, there might be a bit more interest in the whole "this person made it up for this edition", but...

Jonn_Underwood

Lol good point, but then the question would be more about what inspired them

wax eagle

14:51

I find rpg.stackexchange.com/q/24682/1084 to be off topic/nc/tl/narq/uninteresting

Aether

I assume NARQ = Not a Real Question... What are NC and TL?

Oh, too localised...

wax eagle

dire is rather generic to....fantasy?

@Aether NC = not constructive

Aether

Ah, thanks.

Jonn_Underwood

Dire wolves were real but they went extinct

I think there may have been a few other "dire" creatures that also went extinct

Aether

@waxeagle I'm slightly interested in the origins of "dire", but I agree.

wax eagle

14:54

@Aether it's interesting say in a biology/etymology sense, but not in the RPG one

Aether

@waxeagle Right. Exactly.

We've had a few questions over the last week about the origins of various monsters, with varying levels of relevance.

wax eagle

flag ship monster origin: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/24654/…

considering the duration of presence this is probably iconic: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/24615/…

Aether

And also: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/24542/…

Jonn_Underwood

Maybe we should have an Origin tag

wax eagle

@Aether that's an odd one I think. but it passes as it's invented for the game

Aether

15:01

I think given the presence and use of the [history-of-gaming] tag, that's on-topic?

@waxeagle I'm more ok with that, as it's along the lines of "I'm looking for lore on this, but have nothing before this - is there anywhere I can go to get more info?"

wax eagle

@Aether essentially, yes

Aether

With the implication that such information would be useful for his or others' campaigns.

wax eagle

but like: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/21254/… isn't interesting for us

Aether

Yeah, much less so

Jonn_Underwood

15:49

Is a 21 AC overpowered for 1st level 3.5 paladin?

Aether

@Jonn_Underwood I don't think so. Sounds about right.

Paladins, Clerics and Fighters can easily start out with Full Plate (+8) and a Heavy Shield (+2). Given 12 Dex, that's AC 21.

Although... hmm... Full plate is 1500gp, so :/

How much gold does a Paladin start with?

wax eagle

@Aether $12.87?

Oblivious Sage

16:15

@waxeagle: That buys you like 1/5oz of gold, so less than 1gp.

wax eagle

@ObliviousSage not even, like 1/100th

Oblivious Sage

@waxeagle: Isn't it something like $70 an ounce right now?

I don't actually pay any attention to the price of gold, except when it gives me an excuse to mock people that think we should go back to the gold standard.

Aether

It's about $50/g, about $1500/oz

Oblivious Sage

/shrug

gram, ounce, same difference

Jonn_Underwood

16:58

Right now the 24karat gold is going for $1506.80 per ounce

Which translates to $24,108.80 per pound

Which make a D&D gold piece worth in USD $482.17

Thats of coarse if the gold piece is made of the finest gold

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

You're forgetting the inflation of adventurers.

Compare the price of a gallon of milk in our day and a gallon of milk in most D&D settions.

shatterspike1

I wonder why there aren't aluminum pieces...

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

Or tin pieces

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

Or iron pieces. Iron is valuable.

Jonn_Underwood

Or uranium pieces

William 'MindWorX' Mariager

17:05

Maybe there were. Maybe we have explained how magic came to be. ;)

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

shatterspike1

Well, Aluminum used to be really valuable, though

Jonn_Underwood

I'm starting a new campaign about a gnome who believes the world would be better if automatons ruled everything

wax eagle

@Jonn_Underwood ooh, cybermen!

Jonn_Underwood

Lol sort of

The pilot session is tommorow

And I have nothing made yet

shatterspike1

17:09

How long do campaigns in your group last?

Jonn_Underwood

Usually not very long

shatterspike1

I wonder how common that is?

wax eagle

@Jonn_Underwood the first david tenant special is actually potentially right up your alley

Jonn_Underwood

But this time I'm gonna try a full bottom to top 1-20 game

Yeah I wonder how common that is too because I feel like I've failed when I dont get to level 20 with my group

shatterspike1

In our group, the good times are when only two of our ADD as hell DM's are running one campaign each

wax eagle

17:12

no, it's not that one...which one is it.

shatterspike1

Usually, it's 3 or 4 of us, and one or two of us is running two campaigns at once

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

shatterspike1

So I would not consider a single dm, single campaign a failure by any means

Jonn_Underwood

For us its me as DM and three of my little brothers as characters

wax eagle

ah 2008 christmas episode

amazon.com/gp/product/B003KUZSWW

shatterspike1

17:13

Ah, for me it's a group of friends from my old highschool

Jonn_Underwood

How do I post an image?

shatterspike1

Upload, I think?

Jonn_Underwood

No how do I post it here in chat?

Frozen mangoes are awesome

wax eagle

@Jonn_Underwood the upload button, or if it's already on the web just a link to the image on it's own line or as the sole text of a reply

Jonn_Underwood

@wax eagle how did you post that picture?

Oh cool

That's my drawing of a d4

wax eagle

17:17

@Jonn_Underwood amazon product link

Jonn_Underwood

Oh ok

wax eagle

there are a small number of websites that automatically one box, amazon is one, XKCD is another

Jonn_Underwood

Well I have some adventure building to do before tomorrow gets here so I'll be back in a bit.

wax eagle

17:47

(sites that onebox: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/57287/170797)

StuperUser

18:12

With the close votes and downvote, I get the feeling my dire question (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/24682/…) is borderline, if I take out the historical part and make it only about the in game significance of the term, will that be best?

wax eagle

@StuperUser I dunno, it's worth asking about on meta I think though

I don't think it's a good question because I don't find the "dire" prefix interesting in an RPG sense. Dire wolves were named in 1858, I think the predates RPGs by a decade or two...

damn SE is good at google. search "dire as a creature prefix" an the first hit is your question :)

StuperUser

@waxeagle Yeah, well in the bestiary and podcasts about DnD I come across the term a lot and I'm not sure if there's any significance past it being a common prefix.

Wow. That's quick indexing!

wax eagle

@StuperUser I'm just a guy though. Seems that Dire as a 3.5 template is a thing...maybe focusing on that would work?

and you've got it couched mechanically enough that it's probably fine. I'm just being....I dunno. I think I'm probably wrong on a couple of re-reads

StuperUser

A guy with 30k rep, so you know the community better than me. We'll see what answers we get with the meta. I think that my wording was so focussed on the history and it was prima facie an idle curiosity off-topic question.

wax eagle

@StuperUser That's where I'd go (and I'm not even to 20 yet :)). that 30 is network wide (though over half is here)

StuperUser

18:26

A wild meta question appeared: meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/2864/…

wax eagle

@StuperUser ooh, ask the more general question "how do we deal with creature origins within a system"

StuperUser

or even more general - literature, historical, natural historical influences

wax eagle

@StuperUser yes. I'd encourage folks when you ask on meta, ask questions that will set a precedent using your question as an example.

StuperUser

StuperUser used edit: meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/2864/…

it's super effective

hopefully

The Oracle

18:46

0

Q: How to deal with questions that relate to off-topic influences to on-topic principles?

With the close votes and downvote, I get the feeling my dire question is borderline, with some parts on topic and some off-topic. How do we deal with questions about the influences/sources that are off-topic (literature, historical, natural historical) but are the source of rules other aspects o...

discussion

DForck42

@waxeagle any news on what's going on with brian? have we completely dropped the en guard game?

wax eagle

@DForck42 He's been around on the overnight shift lately, but still seems insanely busy. I don't think we've dropped it, but I'm guessing we don't hear for a few more weeks

DForck42

@waxeagle ok

LitheOhm

19:39

@StuperUser hopefully. If not the 'PP' doesn't ever run out here, no need for a stackacenter.

wax eagle

I'd write up an answer, but I've gotta head out here in a couple of minutes and won't be back til wednesday. Y'all have fun

BESW

20:12

@Jonn_Underwood Coins are never pure gold. Gold is soft and malleable, and a pure gold coin would be rubbed away in your pocket.

You always mix gold with something else if it's going to be used for anything except sitting on a shelf.

LitheOhm

perl.com/pub/2000/12/advocacy.html excellent article on polarization, veiled psychology within programming language discourse

found it on the meta

"If you approach PHP with the idea that it has to be destroyed or shut out, that Perl is Right and Everything Else is Messed Up, you aren't going to find out what PHP's advantages are. You aren't going to be in a state of mind that can recognize that PHP has something good that Perl doesn't."

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood Cool.

LitheOhm

"Any Other Problems?

I'm glad you asked. Us-versus-them is not a way to be an effective advocate. Says Nat: ``Passion doesn't convince. Passion makes you look like an idiot or an asshole.'' Telling someone that Perl is great and their thing sucks isn't going to persuade anyone of anything. This style of advocacy may be fun and easy, but it isn't effective. You have to lead people, not drive them before you.

Conclusion

I don't really hate advocacy. I just hate the way we do it most of the time. We do it in a dumb way. And I think the discoursive habits we pick up as a result are going to …

BESW

20:35

@LitheOhm This is true of nearly any discourse or choice we engage in.

LitheOhm

@BESW absolutely agreed. My research paper for English this term goes on a similar tangent relating it to something else.

BESW

We're taught that we need to take sides in every choice, every debate; and that each position is mutually exclusive of any other.

LitheOhm

yeah. Competition instead of collaboration

BESW

We see it in RAW/RAI and edition wars all the time.

Phil

Yep

LitheOhm

20:40

edition wars aye, not sure on the RAW/RAI. I haven't seen advocacy on either, I don't believe

BESW

@LitheOhm I have.

LitheOhm

k

and @Phil you have also?

BESW

Early in my days on SE, I ran into someone who'd been so traumatized by an IRL group that felt RAW was an absolute truth, that he lashed out at an answer in which I simply said that understanding RAW is important in order to have context for RAI and houserules.

I will always remember it, because "shmoo" is the best insult I have ever been called.

LitheOhm

lol

BESW

Polarization is taken to such an extreme it's totally ridiculous, but it's pushed on us so universally that we don't even notice it anymore.

LitheOhm

20:44

Yeah. Phrases such as "why can't we be friends" are viewed as so sentimental and sometimes even behind the times. False dichotomy and all that, it's been the norm for a while I imagine. Hence the desensitization

BESW

Mac or Windows, emo or hipster, Wordpress or Blogger, liberal or conservative? Brands of clothing, choices in music, everything is framed as a polarizing choice.

Oblivious Sage

i'm not sure it's framed as a polarizing choice (well, politics maybe) but that the rise of the Internet makes it easy to associate primarily with people who agree with you, so you get the echo chamber effect going

LitheOhm

Identification with the label contributes, I believe. The article from earlier put it that way and I'm inclined to agree

@ObliviousSage yeah, definitely. Even if it's not framed by the speaker then it's too easy for a listener to take it as framed

BESW

@ObliviousSage It's not the Internet's fault. If any single phenomenon can be blamed, it's consumerism.

LitheOhm

I definitely see the echo chamber effect amplified by the internet

BESW

20:48

@LitheOhm Definitely, but... Calvin said it.

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: I'm not sure I agree. Communications technology in general, and the Internet in particular, have increasingly made it easy to self-segregate. More and more people can, and do, surround themselves with people that are as much like them as possible, which makes it harder to see other points of view.

BESW

@ObliviousSage I strongly disagree. That's the tendency, but you're correlating tool with cause.

The Internet makes it just as easy--if not easier--to integrate.

LitheOhm

I dig the Calvin/Hobbes cartoon

Oblivious Sage

i don't see any link, correlational or causal, between consumerism and polarized politics

BESW

Communications technology puts you in touch with a vast array of people. The choice to remain with the like-minded is not a factor of the technology; it anything, it's a perversion of the technology.

LitheOhm

20:50

It appears the majority would segregate. If that's the case then any tool would better serve polarization than integration

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: it's a bug in human software, a cognitive bias

BESW

@ObliviousSage Consumerist economies are rooted in polarization, because otherwise your choice of product is not tied to your identity.

LitheOhm

lol

Capitalism ties to polarization, especially after the marketing era. Label-making breeds itself

BESW

The cult of the individual (which is really the heart of the consumerist philosophy) feeds on us vs them mentalities.

Don't confuse capitalism with consumerism.

LitheOhm

I'm volunteering capitalism as an entity with ties to polarization.

Oblivious Sage

20:53

i still think political polarization in particular is much more strongly rooted in things that were done in the past 50-60 years rather than in consumerism

LitheOhm

Even as my eco book touts capitalism above socialism it's difficult to shroud it's downfalls

BESW

@LitheOhm Oh, sure. I don't think any single entity or process is solely responsible.

Oblivious Sage

in particular, a couple decades ago several groups deliberately tried to radicalize segments of the US population to increase voter turnout

LitheOhm

I don't know enough about political polarization to say

@ObliviousSage how so?

BESW

@ObliviousSage It's a feedback loop; that strategy wouldn't have even been tried if there wasn't a strong sense that getting people to identity with a political party emotionally (through a sense of identity) instead of rationally (though a sense of justice) would work.

Oblivious Sage

20:58

primarily on the conservative side, the Dominionists (the Christian equivalent of Muslims who think Shari'a law should be the basis of the government) have been striving to make evangelicals more radical (check out the documentary Jesus Camp) and more well-financed conservative elements deliberately created the echo chamber of conservative talk radio and eventually Fox News

BESW

bbl

Jonn_Underwood

Hey guys

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: perhaps so, but that again has nothing to do with consumerism, it has to do with the fact that the system is set up in such a way that only a political party capable of attracting 40+% of the population can achieve any level of success

howdy jonn

LitheOhm

@Jonn_Underwood hey Jonn

it's why some candidates receive no coverage at all

I'm very poorly versed in politics. It's simply the fact that it's always changing. What I learned about the recent presidential election doesn't benefit any other facets of my life other than during that choice.

Jonn_Underwood

Is BESW here?

LitheOhm

21:05

they were a bit ago, likely had something else to do

Jonn_Underwood

Oh ok

BESW and Brian had me start a blog

Oblivious Sage

@Jonn_Underwood: he went AFK literally right as you came into the chat

Jonn_Underwood

Oh lol

LitheOhm

lol yeah

@Jonn_Underwood how's that going?

I was there too :P

Jonn_Underwood

I started it last night at like 12:30am

it's here said it would help with writing and drawing

BESW

21:07

I didn't mean to say that consumerism was the sole cause of polarization, simply that it get the lion's share of the blame for perpetuating and reinforcing the cult of the individual as a marketing strategy.

LitheOhm

@ObliviousSage do you like Big Eyes Small Mouth?

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood Woot, I'll look at that ASAP.

Jonn_Underwood

Lol cool

I drew a d4

Oblivious Sage

it's entertaining, but my group didn't play it more than once or twice; the optimizers among us were a little disturbed about how powerful the point multiplier options were

LitheOhm

lol. My op friend adores it

Jonn_Underwood

21:09

I gotta go eat dinner I'll be back in a bit

LitheOhm

Have you played with the Uresia: Grave of Heaven setting?

KRyan

@NiteCyper: Curmudgeon has a... very odd relationship with the rules. Particularly when Rogues (and major Rogue tactics like Hiding) are concerned. He is very smart, and very knowledgeable, but not nearly as objective as he claims to be (believes himself to be, most likely).

Oblivious Sage

i think it we got it to where you were getting something like 17 points to spend on powers for every 10 points you earned

LitheOhm

hey @kryan

KRyan

hi

Oblivious Sage

21:10

@BESW: i absolutely agree with that, but i don't see that as a major factor in current political polarization in the US

LitheOhm

Dawn_of_Worlds is a great game/tool - played two games and it was fun even with two people

Oblivious Sage

@LitheOhm: yeah, we've really enjoyed Dawn of Worlds

LitheOhm

Compared to sitting alone at a desk and PC making a world, that game is way more interesting

have you found a city creator which functions similarly?

BESW

@ObliviousSage I don't want to get into a discussion of partisan politics; it's rarely constructive. Let's just say that I think the us-vs-them assumptions inherent in partisan politics is founded firmly in the idea that the individual is superior to the community --and that this is an attitude enforced and disseminated by modern marketing.

Oblivious Sage

no, although i suspect you could adapt Dawn of Worlds for that purpose with a bit of work; alternately, there's always Microscope

BESW

21:15

I'm not advocating a conspiracy between the two forces, simply a mutual feedback effect caused by taking advantage of and proliferating an unhealthy attitude.

KRyan

@BESW wut.

how do you go from "individuals are more important than community" automatically to "us-vs-them"?

some communities can and do strongly support "us-vs-them" mentalities

LitheOhm

ah, I have seen the Microscope page before. Aye I was thinking of changing it up and adding some guidelines from 3.5's DMG2 and The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook

BESW

@KRyan I didn't make that generalization.

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: I'll certainly agree that modern marketing strongly encourages the "us v them" side of individualism, but it's hardly the origin of individualism or of polarization;

individualism has a very long history in America, and political polarization has in a lot of ways grown out of a belief that the other side is not just wrong about what's best for the community, but dangerously wrong and pushing things too far, which in turn is often the result of fear-mongering by those who derive power from the resulting polarization.

BESW

I'm talking specifically about the "cult of the individual," which holds the privilege of the individual as sacrosanct, at the expense of the community's wellbeing.

LitheOhm

21:20

there's a new Uresia setting out

Oblivious Sage

And again, that's probably a contributing factor, but it's not the origin of the problem; and of course that "cult of the individual" in many ways grows out of the idea that that is ultimately best for the community

KRyan

@BESW still calling non sequitur

Oblivious Sage

("that" being individualism)

Jonn_Underwood

Ok I'm back

LitheOhm

@Jonn_Underwood think you'll be able to write consistently?

Jonn_Underwood

21:22

Yeah definitely I have nothing but time

And it's a lot of fun

Oblivious Sage

Individualism does, in fact, have its benefits as well as problems, and only a really, really good sociologist/historian can convince me that they can definitively answer the question of whether the pros outweigh the cons, because it such an enormous societal impact.

LitheOhm

Good - make it something. Time's worth investing, especially where skill is concerned.

KRyan

anyway gotta go

LitheOhm

That's cool :)

Jonn_Underwood

What did you think?

BESW

21:23

@ObliviousSage I'm neither arguing consumerism as the original source of the idea, nor am I claiming that the rights of the individual should be compromised for the sake of the community.

LitheOhm

I'm a critic lol. But I'm interested in seeing more of both drawing and writing.

Jonn_Underwood

Was the writing any good?

LitheOhm

Don't worry though - I'm almost always a critic where writing is concerned. People in my English class last term more-or-less cussed me out for editing their work (as I was assigned to)

BESW

@ObliviousSage I'm saying that the extreme to which individualism has been taken, such that the privilege of the individual holds the basic wellbeing of the community hostage, is clearly unhealthy.

Jonn_Underwood

Lol

LitheOhm

21:24

@Jonn_Underwood it wasn't bad. I'd have to see more if I was to give any kind of constructive feedback

Jonn_Underwood

Well constructive criticism is always welcome

BESW

Anyway, I must dash. Back later. If this conversation has to continue, it should do so in a different venue.

LitheOhm

@Jonn_Underwood noted, and that's good.

Jonn_Underwood

Ok I'll write some more in a bit

LitheOhm

I don't learn much from my teacher assigning homework to write papers. I do learn much from editing others' works because I don't just rely on what I know. If I find a grammar issue I do research to back up my criticism

Grammar Girl is a godsend

Jonn_Underwood

21:26

Have a link?

LitheOhm

I do dig the sunset/horizon cover photo

yeah, one sec

grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/semicolons.aspx

Oblivious Sage

@BESW: and i agree, but again, i question the extent to which that's responsible for our current political polarization (which is something you mentioned way way back at the start of this argument; if you're dropping that then we're in agreement on all relevant points and should drop the matter)

Jonn_Underwood

Cool thanks! I've been reading oatmeal that Brian showed me

LitheOhm

I like d20 systems because they're both creative but also very math-centric. I like grammar because it's math-oriented, in a sense. Few exceptions exist to a plethora of rules but there's still logical guidelines most English will follow

BESW

@ObliviousSage I mentioned liberal and conservative attitudes as one element in our culture of polarization. Nothing more. I avoid partisan politics as a matter of principle.

LitheOhm

21:28

TheOatmeal.Com ?

Jonn_Underwood

@BESW let me know what you think when you get a chance.

Ohm yeah

Do you study physics?

LitheOhm

I like that site. Have you seen the Tesla comic?

BESW

@Jonn_Underwood So far so good, havent' had a chance to look at it as closely as I'd like.

LitheOhm

When I get time. I'm reading through my college physics book now and then. It does interest me greatly

Jonn_Underwood

Yeah physics as awesome

LitheOhm

21:31

Agreed.

Jonn_Underwood

@BESW ok let me know what you think when you have inspected it

Do those pictures seem blurry?

LitheOhm

A note on editing: Don't edit as you write the first draft. Not for conventional errors, do so only for content. Otherwise you'll sort of make your own writer's block. The whole second-guessing thing and all that

the top one does a little

Jonn_Underwood

Good to know

I am going to get a sewing machine with my mother, I will be back soon. Thanks for the web link and your input!

LitheOhm

cool

@kryan good edit

BESW

21:53

@Jonn_Underwood Following up on @LitheOhm's suggestion about editing, there's an idea in writing (not everyone agrees with it, and it's called by many names) which I like to think of as "voyage out" and "voyage back" (I think Peter Elbow --yes, that's his real name-- coined it thus).

"Voyage out" is where you write. Just write, don't worry about consistency or style or even necessarily making a lot of sense. Just write everything you can about the subject/scene/person/whatever until you feel dry.

"Voyage back" is where you cut away what doesn't work, and edit down what does.

You take a machete (or sometimes a chainsaw) to the dense sprawling jungle that you wrote, and you hack it away and shape it until it's a lovely topiary.

Then you voyage out again.

This process gives you both unfettered creativity and total control, by not creating the desire to have both at once.

And yes, your photos look a little fuzzy. Can't tell if it's the base quality of the equipment or if you're too close for the limitations of the equipment.

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