TRPG General Chat

Zachiel

00:07

don't target high level people. Target the low levels who might know something.
I once won the trust of a doppleganger who was posing as the guard of a noble because he didn't want to risk reading my mind. I convinced him his noble suspected of him for some unknown reason and promised to hide him and help him escaping the city, then I had a fight with him in a pool (I told him it was an access to the sewers) while I had freedom of movement on myself. Greatest fight ever.

BESW

01:26

@Melon Thanks for the testimonial.

LitheOhm

03:01

@Zachiel that's true. Guess it's not low power, in that light - simply more strategy-oriented

BESW

@LitheOhm It's a good GM nemesis strategy too; the party might be full up on anti-scry, but the innkeep, the swordseller, and the scroll-maker aren't. What do they know?

BESW

03:29

@LitheOhm I believe there are also a number of divination spells that are more passive, and can be used without alarming those near the scrying sensor.

LitheOhm

07:01

@BESW scrying on a location, I suppose

BESW

07:13

Are there any fate questions on this site that are particularly valuable for a player or GM who are soon to begin the group's first-ever experience with the FATE system (DFRPG)?

Simon Gill

10

Q: How valid is lying to players about the rolls they are making in The Dresden Files?

In last weeks Dresden Files game, the players followed the bad guy using a tracking spell, and found him in the projects at an apartment that they knew little about. Seeing his car, they decided to set it aflame to get him out of the apartment (and to identify it). The wizard's spell was a bit ...

8

Q: Creating encounters for a DFRPG party

I've got a 2-person party and i'm having some difficulty with balancing encounters for them. It seems that what i'm making is either way too easy, or harder than i really want it to be (ie, they're either not using much of their stress tracks or they're taking higher consequences). I didn't see...

gm-techniques fate dresden-files

12

Q: Are we doing mild consequences and stress right?

After reading through the book and reading up on consequences, i can't help but feel that we might be treating stress and mild consequences the wrong way. Say we've just been in a fight, after the fight ends that's considered, for the most part, the end of a scene right? And if i recall correct...

dresden-files fate

Do those help?

BESW

I think so!

Related to the "lying" one, and possibly to the question I'll link after I'm done typing this, what are some good strategies for providing mystery and orchestrating surprises without removing the cards-on-the-table collaboration I so love about the system?

8

Q: Do you have to reveal your NPC's aspects?

Important NPCs may have hidden aspects that PCs are supposed to assess somehow before using them: can such a NPC invoke one of his hidden aspects without the GM revealing it to the players? Example: Let's say that Lenny is a drug-dealer working for a local crime lord that PCs are trying to take...

gm-techniques dresden-files fate

(Both I and my players really like the "oooh" moment of a good Mystery Revealed scene, and it's best for us when the players are as surprised as the characters.)

Simon Gill

There is a notion in Spirit of the Century of discovering aspects.

two secs

BESW

What DFRPG calls assessment?

Simon Gill

Not quite. Assessment is slightly different

The Information Management chapter is here faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html#information-management . Doesn't have everything but it's helpful.

BESW

07:28

I can see how an NPC's aspects could be crafted so that they're accurate without giving away some plot point the GM wants to hold back; but how kosher is that? IE, if Harry doesn't know whether someone with the Loose Cannon aspect is on his side, should the player?

Simon Gill

ah, here we go - faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html#guessing-aspects

I knew I'd read it somewhere.

@BESW An NPC with the Loose Cannon aspect? That should probably come through in the NPCs actions and the player should be wondering whether they are dangerous.

BESW

Okay, so secret aspects are kosher. Which means non-aspect secrets are also kosher. Excelllent. [rubs hands together]

I guess I'm still having trouble getting a firm grasp on what information is and isn't given out up front.

Simon Gill

@BESW You're allowed to slowly reveal things.

@BESW Don't give out all of someone's aspects at the start of a conflict. When they need to use it, that's the time.

BESW

Okay.

I'm specifically thinking of a plot for my first story in which many many secrets are being kept on all sides. By the end of the story, I expect the players to have learned most if not all of them and been instrumental in deciding which NPC gets to learn what.

Simon Gill

Yeah, that's fine.

BESW

07:38

(This is still the "garden gnomes are terrorizing changeling children" plot, which I think I've mentioned here before.)

Simon Gill

You have. It sounds like it's going to be lots of fun

BESW

I hope so. I tried to come up with something that has reasonably high stakes, but is Dresden-style wacky and appropriate for a Feet in the Water game. I may have to adjust it drastically depending on the PCs I'm given, though.

Simon Gill

How many players are you going to have for this now?

BESW

Probably 2.5, eventually dropping to 1.5 at an unforeseen future date.

If the extra +1 PC winds up being more physical, my plot may have to change significantly.

Which is fine. I'm just having a hard time not planning things in advance. Old habits.

Simon Gill

@BESW Yeah, it's a habit you might want to modify. The players have a lot more agency in this game.

BESW

07:46

@SimonGill I'm really looking forward to exactly that.

The sessions I've always loved best are the ones where everything's off the rails and I have to just roll with things.

But I usually put a lot of prep into worldbuilding so I have a sandbox to roll around in, and I can't do that ahead of time in a system where worldbuilding is part of the first session.

Simon Gill

@BESW That planning habit will stand you in good stead for helping build all the NPCs that exist in the locality though. The more people that can be interacted with, the better ;)

BESW

Hope so.

I'm just gonna have to learn to bend in new directions and hope the players are patient.

Heh. My NPC improv is going to suffer because one of my players reads most of the same books I do. Can't crib from most of my usual sources anymore.

Simon Gill

@BESW I'm sure they'll give you the space for it.

@BESW Uh oh :P

BESW

...oooh. He doesn't read Allingham. Yessss.

That consequence question was very helpful! I was understanding it wrong.

Simon Gill

@BESW Glad I could help :)

BESW

07:57

@SimonGill I am so glad I've got you guys to bounce ideas off of.

Simon Gill

And I like helping too :)

BESW

@SimonGill You're quite good at it!

Simon Gill

@BESW Thank you :)

BESW

@user27035 Hi!

BESW

08:17

@SimonGill Got any suggestions or links for physical/digital aids to running DFRPG? Like how to keep track of all the many aspects that are going to be flying around?

Or is that specific enough to justify a site question?

Simon Gill

@BESW I think that's a good site question

BESW

Excellent! I'll get on that later tonight.

My Q:A ratio is definitely out of whack.

Simon Gill

@BESW Is there really a "normal" Q:A ratio?

BESW

@SimonGill of course not! but 10:42 seems excessive.

Simon Gill

@BESW Seems fine to me.

BESW

08:24

Then maybe I'm just neurotic.

Simon Gill

@BESW Perhaps :P

BESW

(One of my 4e players is only truly content with his PC when all four of its defenses are equal, or relate to each other in a clear mathematical progression.)

Simon Gill

@BESW That's an interesting expression of the need for neatness.

BESW

@SimonGill You should see his M:tG decks.

Simon Gill

@BESW A perfect 30:20:10 ratio of lands:creatures:spells?

BESW

08:28

No, silly.

Land distribution obviously depends on the mean/median/mode mana cost of the spells and creatures.

Simon Gill

@BESW I never quite "got" the land distribution or numbers of gold holdings in M:tG or L5R.

BESW

Actually he usually does a lot of playtesting to fine-tune in practice after getting it mathematically ideal.

But he does run by the axiom that if a card is worth putting in, it's usually worth putting in four times, and he optimizes for Likelihood Of Drawing Needed Cards.

Simon Gill

@BESW There are very few exceptions to the "Take as many as you can get" rule.

BESW

He's built at least two decks on the idea that at least 80% of the time you could mulligan no more than twice to have the cards you need in your opening hand, which would then allow you to set up the mechanics to access whatever card you happen to need at any time for the rest of teh game.

This is the guy I was concerned wouldn't be interested in FATE.

Simon Gill

I'm sure he'll do fine. Probably end up wizarding actually (since thaumaturgy looks to be the crunchiest of the systems).

BESW

08:37

Yeah....

I was describing the system informally to him yesterday before D&D, and said something about how casting was the most complicated bit with the most subrules, and I think I saw something gleam in his eye.

I think he's already enamored of the idea of shifts.

And nobody makes shifts dance like a wizard.

If I'm starting at Feet in the Water, can he begin as a Focused Practitioner and turn into a Wizard after a story or two?

(I guess that's two questions: how many stories do PC usually go through to hit the next power level, and how easy is it to switch from a low-powered template to a high-powered one?)

...are those more site questions?

Simon Gill

@BESW Not sure about that, exactly.

BESW

By a quick reading of milestones, you'd jump a power level roughly every "book".

Simon Gill

@BESW Yeah, there's nothing I can think of that would stop you. There'd be a few advancements you'd need to do, most importantly, getting the Refresh up high enough for it.

BESW

(5 Significant and 1 Major seems to roughly equal a power level.)

Simon Gill

08:55

hmmm..... this looks more complex than I thought at first.

BESW

Oh?

Simon Gill

Might just be the lack of sleep overnight.

BESW

A wizard is a -7 min cost, and there's a sidebar about allowing PCs to be rebuilt from the ground up if narratively appropriate and they're still clearly the same person.

Simon Gill

I've also not delved into the DF templates much yet.

Well, you'd have to go up to Chest-Deep, so that's 2 major milestones.

And along the way, if he's picking up the wizardly skills then it'll make plenty of sense.

BESW

Hmm. So, like, he could trade out Channeling [-2] for Evocation [-3] after his first milestone.

Simon Gill

09:11

Yeah, once per minor milestone, you can do some swapping around.

BESW

09:53

@SimonGill I'm putting together the game aids question, and I'm wondering if it's too short and vague. Mind taking a gander?

Simon Gill

Sure

BESW

I'm going to begin running a Dresden Files Roleplaying Game campaign in a group that has no FATE or Fudge experience (myself included); we've largely been running D&D 3.5 and 4e. What are some physical or digital aids that might help the smooth running of DFRPG? I am particularly interested in suggestions about how to track the many aspects that will be flying back and forth.

[I'm also having trouble composing a title that doesn't include the system.]

Simon Gill

"How can I keep track of Aspects and Powers?"

BESW

OF COURSE!

Simon Gill

hehe

Maybe you could add some details about the game aids that have helped you during your D&D games.

BESW

10:01

Good call.

...that paragraph will be longer than the one with the question.

Simon Gill

But it will help people see a link between the systems you start with and those in the accepted answer.

BESW

As an example of the kind of things I'm talking about, in D&D we've found some of these useful: A small whiteboard for tracking initiative and conditions (with a magnet we slide to indicate who's currently up in the round); the [inCombat][1] program so I can track everyone's hit points in one place; an index card box to hold power cards (printed and put in TCG sleeves); and two binders, one to hold character sheets and handouts, and the other for my own notes and reference pages.

Simon Gill

That should help focus the mind when people answer.

BESW

Cool, thanks.

One last look-over and I'll post.

Oh, tags. Um... gm-tools tools fate dresden-files?

Simon Gill

yeah, they're all valid

BESW

10:11

My question isn't showing up on the site page for me, but I got an upvote.
....

Simon Gill

I'm still amused by question about using a salad fork to shift to the Prime Material plane.

@BESW Heh, it's got weird timing. I saw it off an update and gave it an upvote. When I went back to the main page, it wasn't there again.

BESW

@SimonGill I know! In my group, it'd make more sense for a salad fork to take you to Limbo.

Simon Gill

@BESW Wouldn't it be a salad spork to get to Limbo?

BESW

@SimonGill My players have this weird thing about calling slaadi "salads."

Simon Gill

@BESW haha, giant frog salad.

BESW

10:15

@SimonGill It got especially strange then the fighter's battle taunts started being about vinegar.

Simon Gill

@BESW Of course, that probably made perfect sense to the chaos beastie.

BESW

@SimonGill I'm sure it did.

But as nobody there spoke their language, we'll never know.

Simon Gill

@BESW Maybe if it walks out of the NeverNever?

A bit of meta when it comes out in a different game and says "HEY! I just got that. I'll give you vinegar!" (cue obscene gesture)

BESW

[snerk]

Unfortunately, that player is now in Nashville.

(I have never before or since had a player more talented at mad-yet-coherent rambling.)

Simon Gill

@BESW You should mention it to his new GM then. That'd give the other players he's with a bit of a "Huh?" moment.

BESW

11:24

@Pureferret Hi!

@Tynam Fancy seeing you here.

Tynam

HI BESW. You ordered some reassuring first-time-GMing-Dresden notes, so here they are...

BESW

Much obliged. I'm looking at those character sheets in the link, and loving them... and deciding I'm going to have to write the GM-side myself or I won't be able to read anyone's handwriting.

Tynam

A) Aspect tracking: some aspects turn out to be either permanent-or-long-term (through assessments or injuries), in which case they go on the NPC or site notes or character sheet (and an index card if the PCs know about them).

The majority are short-term creations in encounters, however...

...and my experience is that those get remembered fine without help, since they've usually been manoeuvred into place just so someone can tag immediately next round.

Scene aspects, likewise, are usually either in your notes already or created by players for their own advantage... in which case they rarely forget them!

B) FATE economy - this pretty much handles itself; the players will gain the points when they can and use them when they want. When in doubt, hand out more - it's very hard to break the game by accidentally handing out too many. Compels create character drama, and bad guys handing them out are setting up their own downfall later while making the group hate them now... it's win-win.

BESW

Am I wrong in thinking that maneuver aspects usually remain for the rest of the scene, or is it just that once the free invoke is used they're generally ignored?

Tynam

They remain until counter-maneuvered away or rest of scene, yes. But they're usually created for the free tag, so yes, they're often ignored afterwards.

If they're being tagged heavily after the free one, the character probably should be maneuvering to get rid of them.

BESW

11:38

Gotcha.

Tynam

C) Story immersion... it's really hard to describe how much Dresden character creation makes players get involved in their backstory. Even when just using the preconstructed adventures, players who normally hesitate on character creation were coming up with complicating, deep, interesting backstory interactions.

...which created character traits that turned into Aspects and mattered heavily during play.

Simon Gill

Slight digression - the [Darths and Droids shownotes today](http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0834.html) are great.

"Handling in-game romance when the players are not romantically involved can be challenging. But ultimately it's just like acting. And we know that actors never end up getting into convoluted romantic entanglements with other actors...

On second thought: Handle these sorts of situations very carefully."

Tynam

(I ran the pregen "Neutral Grounds" for my first game, and it's amazing how much more the Dresden pregen characters came to life and got personalised by their players compared to pregens for most games.)

Oooh, thanks Simon - I'd missed that that was out.

(Probably because all the pregens have blank aspects and backstory links to be filled in just before play. It is totally worth the fifteen minutes to get your players to create their how-we-influenced-each-other links, even in a convention one-shot, much more a regular group.)

OK, that's about all I had to say for the summary. Any questions?

BESW

Waugh, sorry. Internet has been spotty all day.

[reads]

@Tynam Sweet. I've got players who really like developing well-rounded characters, but are also mechanically-minded so usually create a fun interesting character around an effective mechanic. I'm hoping DFRPG will kinda cut out the middleman there.

Tynam

Yep, it does that a lot. Note that for a regular campaign, having players create their PCs together is much more important in Dresden than in D&D.

BESW

11:53

@SimonGill I once had an IRL couple who explicitly went out of their way to always create PCs who could never, ever, possibly, in any way have any kind of meaningful friendship or relationship outside of "professionals working together" for that exact reason.

(It seemed like overkill to me, but apparently they'd had Bad Experiences in previous groups.)

@Tynam Yeah, one of my challenges is not prepping very much because I want everything to be put together with the players in that first session.

Tynam

...interestingly (and tying both threads together!), the married couple in my Dresden group created a much more complicated, potentially-romantic-potentially-student-potentially-enemies relationship between their characters than the simple professional relationships they usually allow themselves.

Advice on prep: Prep your locations and major NPCs stats thoroughly, but leave everything else very loose. Your players will create backplots and character traits that you want to weave in; Dresden is the second best system I've ever seen for making characters have interesting backplots, and the best for having those tie in to play in interesting ways.

BESW

Hrm. I'm trying to visualize what the table might look like.

(Specifically, I'm trying to figure out the contrast between my GM-only notes and the way/extent I present scene/NPC information to the players.)

@Tynam And what's the best system for making characters have interesting backplots?

Tynam

At one end: me, GM screen, notes behind screen. Around edges: players, each with 1 character sheet and small stack of poker chips. In middle: some loose index cards with NPC research or Aspects that PCs have discovered, and some blank paper with scrawled maps of other relevant notes. Dice are scattered liberally everywhere, of course.

...and it was Everway.

(Although if you want whole countries to have interesting backplots, go with Microscope.)

...that should be maps OR other relevant notes, of course.

BESW

Heh. I've never made a GM screen work for me. Not sure if I just sprawl my notes out too much, or if it's the psychological us-vs-them thing that makes it fail.

Tynam

Dresden certainly doesn't need a screen; I just like having rules ref handy. On the subject of GM-only information: the biggest transition for me from D&D / WoD GMing to FATE GMing is how much you should share with the players. Keep the plot to yourself in advance, but when in doubt share everything.

..everything that's going on right now, at least.

Example situation: the players are rescuing a hostage. There is a magical fire trap that will blow up if they touch him.

Correct D&D GMing answer: Say nothing. If they think to search, roll Search. If not, check passive Spot at penalty. If not... let them touch him. Boom.

Simon Gill

12:09

@Tynam What would you say the correct FATE answer is?

Tynam

Correct Dresden GMing answer: As soon as they even *think* about interacting with the hostage, let the *players* know that there's a trap. Find the character with trouble Aspect "No Idea How Bad This Could Get" and compel it to make her charge in and grab the hostage. Now the player has an interesting mechanical and story choice: *spend* a fate point to stay in control and Assess to spot the trap, or *gain* a fate point for advancing interesting story... at the probable cost of the hostage's life.

3

The FATE point economy then self-corrects into interesting stories: players who always do what you compelled gain massive fate point reserves with which to make things go their way in the climax.

Players who never go with the compel get to live safer, happy lives... until they run out of Fate. Then, not so much,

In practice, players rapidly learn to ride the line between the two.

Note that this economy is also a key part of game balance: supernaturals with heavy refresh cost powers will have to get into trouble. Mortals get much more choice about when to get into trouble, and when to spend points to get out of it.

Simon Gill

@Tynam And this is why we trust Evil Hat to design good games. They think about things like this.

BESW

Yes, I am very interested to see Refresh cost balance in action.

Tynam

It takes a session or so for the players to really start to use it to full potential, but it works for gameplay almost from the moment you hit the table.

Can't emphasize enough: during character creation, good Aspect choice is Aspects that will help you AND get you into trouble. Every character needs some of each, and the best Aspects are often those that do both equally often. If your aspects are all so nice that they're always good for you... you won't have the fate points to use them. The Trouble aspect isn't just a defining character flaw; it's how you get the points to pay for using the others.

As a GM, it's almost never wrong to hand out fate for NPC use (the typical bad guy should only have about 1 fate, but he should use it at some point!) and really never wrong to compel. You're feeding the fate economy, and the players will love you for it even as they agonise over whether to take the point. If you compel something in every major dramatic conflict, you're not overdoing it.

BESW

@Tynam I know at least one of the players understands that already, and based on D&D PC experiences I think everyone will enjoy coming up with character flaws.

Coming up with the actual pithy phrases will be a challenge, though. It's a mindset I haven't fallen into yet.

Tynam

12:22

Don't be afraid to let them leave an aspect blank for later definition, and the same with a few skill points as well. When running one-shots with pregen characters, I've often found cool stuff comes up during play.

BESW

I'm quite sure pre-gens won't be used for this.

One player is already pretty much dedicated to the idea of a changeling who starts play with no supernatural powers, and picks them up as he discovers his true heritage: final choice of human or fey to be determined by play.

Tynam

I didn't mean that you were using pregens, only that I've learned from it that if you're completely stuck for a fifth aspect... leave it blank. It'll fill in during play.

BESW

Ahah.

Tynam

...pithy Aspect phrases is an art that I'm still learning. One tip so far: when a player Aspect describes a skill or mindset, try rephrasing to describe how they got that way. (Allow players to rewrite aspect phrasing in the first couple of sessions if something better comes up.) Example from play: "Muscled and charges in" on our white council apprentice got way better once we changed it to "I was the college quarterback."

Simon Gill

@Tynam Ahhhhhhh, that makes a lot of sense.

Tynam

12:26

"Nervous tic" is OK, "Always Watching out for THEM" is good, but "defected from the CIA" is golden.

BESW

@Tynam BRILLIANT.

Suddenly the really troublesome aspect from the experimental PC creation session I did with a friend falls into place.

Tynam

Also, don't forget that Aspects can be significant objects... again, the aspect shouldn't describe the object itself but *why it matters*. The key word in Harry's "My Mother's Silver Pentacle" aspect is 'mother'.

(One of my character had "My Mother's Wedding Ring" for similar reasons. BAD reasons, once you add her other aspect "Still Hears the Bullets".)

You don't need to do this every time, but make it personal. Our retired cop had a simple "I Know Trouble When I See It." But the character high concept gives it context.

The advantage of this approach is that even drama-and-crisis-based aspects stay relevant in non-combat situations; they tell you something about the whole character.

BESW

The practice PC's Aspect "Killing is Messy" or "Everyone is Connected" or something like that, could just be "I Got a Man Killed."

(He had a backstory in which trying to get a biker gang out of his neighborhood through nonviolent trickster-type actions accidentally sparked a firefight in which one of the bikers died... but the gang left the neighborhood afterward. His sister, who was dating one of them, now hates the PC.)

Tynam

...yep, sounds good for me. Other aspects that could follow from that off the top of my head: "My Sister Won't Forgive Me", "No More Gunfire!" or "I Prefer Public Transport, Thanks." Depends what part of the guilt trip your player wants to emphasize, of course.

...could even lead to a Trouble Aspect; something like "It's So Easy To Start A Fight... So Hard To Stop One."

BESW

12:42

That last one is more in line with the player's goal, I think.

Tynam

I've got to get to work now; hope that helps. Have fun!

BESW

Something about making sure you're okay with the consequences before you start something.

@Tynam Thanks so much! Lots of great insight here.

+1 experience, +1 analysis.

Tynam

"Don't Start Anything You Can't Stop" perhaps... needs better phrasing though.

...my pleasure. See you around.

BESW

15:13

[blink]

Pureferret

16:00

@BESW Yo

BESW

@Pureferret Heya. How's it going?

Pureferret

Good

yourself?

BESW

Not bad, considering I'm up at 2am fiddling with layout for a client.

Lord_Gareth

16:34

>.> Not sure if I should comment on new answer to monk thread or not.

'Cause on the one hand, just downvoting the answer is perfectly okay

And on the other hand one of the other comments is sorta missing the point.

And on the third hand that's growing out of my chest, the guy who made it is a mod.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth The mod has an excellent point.

The question was "How can the monk be made awesome?" and most of the megaposts are dedicating a needless amount of text to "why it can't be."

Lord_Gareth

He would, if that was the thrust of the objections we're bringing up. It's not about "megadamage". Huge amounts of damage are just gravy, really. The problem with Monk is that he is use-impaired, bordering on use*less*.

Monk's problem isn't that he doesn't do damage, it's that he doesn't do anything

BESW

[shrug] I think a careful reading will see that he didn't limit his point to that exclusively, and at any rate he's right that many of those answers are in essence just as much irrelephant soapboxing as the new answer. They're just more eloquent about it, and sprinkle some relephant information in alongside the soap.

Lord_Gareth

"You can't" is about as legitimate an answer to that question as you get. Some classes just don't optimize. Monk and Commoner are on that list. Note, though, that @KRyan and I did try to offer resources to do SOMETHING with it

BESW

16:50

Yeah, when I see twenty-seven-hundred-plus words explaining in painstaking detail why things that no one in the thread has said yet are wrong, I'm going to assume the poster is continuing an argument he's got a horse in rather than answering the question.

Just like Steve's 'answer' responds to claims and concerns that haven't been raised, the ultimate result is an answer that says "This person isn't interested in answering questions, but rather in giving lectures."

(I say this as a person who tends toward long-winded answers myself. I often find myself writing great missives, and have to take out the chainsaw before I post.)

Lord_Gareth

Gotta go to work

See ya'll around.

BESW

Ta!

KRyan

17:09

wait what now?

my answer goes into great detail about what (little) you can do with the Monk class

it concludes by saying "it's not worth it and there are massively better ways to achieve the concept"

and explains how to use those

@BESW Grappling, Mageslaying, and Vow of Poverty absolutely were brought up in answers or comments; not sure what you're referring to

@Lord_Gareth what comment now?

BESW

@KRyan That whole answer post is gone now.

KRyan

yeah, I kinda figured it would be; it was mostly just a rant about how I'm a terrible person for saying what I said about Monks, so far as I could tell, and the grammar and spelling were atrocious.

BESW

First off, I never said your name. You're not the only person with 20k+ to his name in that thread.

KRyan

is that so?

Oh, Noctani

...I forgot about that post

sorry about that

BESW

Second, yes --your eighth and ninth edits made the answer much more constructive and actually related it to the question being asked. It's still a somewhat bitter read, but it's helpful.

(It's still got a couple incorrect book citations, but that's neither here nor there.)

KRyan

17:17

yeah, those were made after those criticisms were made to Noctani and I realized that I had a bit of the same

oh, yeah, Fanged Ring

it just seems like something Savage Species would print

but the Unarmed Strike section always had optimization advice

and that's honestly the only thing in Monk you can optimize in any meaningful way

maybe the Bonus Feats

BESW

Never said it didn't.

KRyan

@BESW was there anything other than Fanged Ring, while I'm fixing that one?

@BESW well my point is that even in the initial incarnation, it answered the question about as well as it could be answered; I just didn't explicitly point out that the crappy features cannot be optimized.

BESW

Hurf, my Internet is failing.

KRyan

well that's annoying

sorry to hear that

BESW

mmm. A lack of competition means that service industries can get away with a lot here.

KRyan

17:31

frankly, that's equally true here, though probably not to quite the same extreme

telecoms don't actually compete with one another, and have no incentive to do so

classic example of a monopolistic oligarchy

and they certainly do abuse it

BESW

There are two Internet providers here. One is the government telephone authority, which controls the lines in and out of the island. It is by law required to sell access to those lines at cost to other providers, of which there is one.

KRyan

that sounds irritating

Zachiel

18:10

How abaout biclassing rogue and getting ascetic rogue?

And unleashing one amongst telephonic line managers, of course

Carolina Loza

22:22

hullo y'all

C. Ross

23:21

@CarolinaLoza hi :-)

bah, the gaps ...

Carolina Loza

what gaps?

C. Ross

@CarolinaLoza in time: I mean when you ask a question in chat and no one responds for an hour.

Carolina Loza

23:39

@C.Ross what question did you ask?

C. Ross

@CarolinaLoza I didn't, Zachiel did ...

Carolina Loza

oh yeah.. i have no idea he knows more about that stuff than i do

i go to him for functional ideas xD

C. Ross

@CarolinaLoza yeah

Carolina Loza

@C.Ross any chance you know how to play l5r?

C. Ross

'fraid not

D&D 3, 3.5, PF, 4e (but not an expert), FATE, Savage Worlds (a little)

a few others ...

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