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01:29
1
Q: Bug when saving an edit: I made my post disappear

Thomas MarkovWhen saving an edit, I am asked if I want to abandon the edit: Then, if I choose cancel, the post disappears: It works on questions too: This is on iOS Safari. Meta.se report here: Editing a post leads to weird behavior

01:39
"Kickstarter moves annual ZineQuest initiative to August, but indie designers have different plans" article by Chase Carter for Dicebreaker. ZineQuest is dead; long live ZineQuest.
Best Left Jellied by Chris Bissette. A Brindlewood Bay mystery
Kickstarter: Adorablins by Tim Devine. The Adorable Pocket-Size Storytelling Game!
Matthew Dunstan wrote a twitter thread about "how long it takes a board game to get made, from initial idea to final product, and what to expect as a designer." (Not specifically about TRPGs but the industries have overlap and I think many of the insights are applicable)
Terrible Friends: A Breakfast Cult Expansion by Weird Age Games. An expansion for the Breakfast Cult RPG.
game(s) jam hosted by will jobst. the game(s) jam is an experiment to see what happens when you put two games together.
Jeeyon Shim announced on twitter The Snow Queen RPG, an upcoming two player fantasy game that uses chess as its mechanical engine. You have one goal: take as many of your opponent's pieces as you can to ensure that your world stays whole.
Probably a good time to re-share this, too:
"The Annotated Archive of Game Design Resources" a collection curated by Liminal Horror.
02:43
@Exempt-Medic I see you and raise you six answers (though the number there is partially/also due to them wanting to give each team menber an answer of their own)
03:05
@bobble I, also, seem to have lost my jaw somewhere on that page.
03:24
@bobble This is crazy, I love it.
 
2 hours later…
05:47
Hypothetical: let’s say I’m trying to figure out the physics of magic (lost a bet with a friend, now I’m writing the magical additions to a certain physics book) and I have a unit name but no useful thing to use that unit to represent.
I want to have the thaum as a unit of magic (its symbol is going to be the thorn) but I have no idea what it’ll represent. Does joules*meters make any sense (the thaum would be the ability to produce one joule of energy over a distance of one meter using magic)?
06:08
@nitsua60 does sheep jaw have tasty meat?
@BardicWizard Hmm, it really depends on how your magic works. What important thing differentiates magic from physics in your setting? Make thaums measure that. Barring that, I'd be tempted to introduce it as a measure of some esoteric energy (caution: European esoteric energy theories almost always turn out to have ties to Nazis or something similar).
One fun option: have the study of magical be in early stages where they're like "Okay we call this thing thaum because there's something we can measure that we can't explain, but we have no idea what it IS yet which is why we can't explain it."
"If we plug Þ into this equation here and here, the math matches the experiments. We don't know what Þ is but there's SOMETHING there."
@BESW it started from using math/physics to figure out how the damage a d&d fireball spell does correlates to joules of energy, actually
Maybe Þ is a universal constant of magic, like the speed of light or Planck's constant. Or maybe Þ is a variable, and its value is unique to a caster or magical object or place, and you can plug that person/object/place's Þ value into equations for strength, distance, energy, etc to figure out the maximum and minimum possible things they can do with magic.
It involves something like either megajoules or kilojoules of heat by the way. We think
Then you could just make Þ be the caster level, or the size of the dice?
06:15
@BESW the thaum is an idea for measuring magical strength, yeah
@BESW I’m guessing a thaum is actually a constant of sorts - like a coefficient of friction but for people
Magic available to power something
You could probably backgineer some fancy math to make Thaum a constant that defines spell slot access.
“We don’t know what a thaum represents, but it seems to be an integer between 1 and 20, and have some linear connection to power available”
@BESW if I ever had free time I would
06:56
@BESW I need a better line of best fit but based just off the wizard and a really simple thing (slots for a given spell level times level of slot, add together for each character level), the constant of spell slots would be about 4.56 per wizard level…
 
1 hour later…
07:58
[heaves sigh] Okay, because mainsite is Having A Good One. For anybody who needs to hear it:
Racism is an ethical and moral subject, not a scientific one. Even when used to debunk racist positions, bringing up topics like genetics, husbandry, or taxonomy in discussions of racism is granting legitimacy to the racist idea that science is a valid tool for determining morality.
3
08:31
People mean well when using statements like "humans aren't different species like dogs and cats," but while technically true those stances fail as anti-racist arguments: even if humanity were composed of different species we'd all still be people who deserve dignity, respect, and equity. Instead, by reducing a moral issue to an issue of taxonomy, such arguments imply there are situations in which it WOULD be permissible to treat people monstrously.
And so the D&D corollary that "elves and orcs are different species" is equally irrelephant, as is "it's just fantasy" -- even if D&D's implementation wasn't reifying real-world racist psuedoscience, which it absolutely is, and thus must be considered connected to reality.
yeah
I mean if there were suddenly a portal to another dimension where real elves and orcs and ect existed those arguments could be used to treat them like not-people
and in the real world they can definitely be traced back in some origin to an alegory for people who do actually exist
Aye.
I mean I already know of countless examples in media where non-human people are treated as not people by the setting and the story not just say, humans or whoever
I'm not trying to call anybody out, this is a very common rhetorical stance in conversations around race and I just want to point out that it's not an effective position because by using science to argue against racism in the particular we legitimize racism as 'scientific' in the general.
yeah making a strictly scientific argument against racism unfortunately opens the door to some very,.... unfortunate possible arguments that literally have been made already
GcL
GcL
08:38
@BESW You mean biology? Because I'm pretty certain that social sciences are very much concerned with sorting out what is moral especially in terms of access to justice and knowledge.
@trogdor Yeah. So, "are orcs a different species because they can breed with humans" is just... not a useful place to stick a flag.
GcL
GcL
@BESW Eugenics is scientific racism. It's crap science, because it's based on faulty assumptions, but it has falsifiable claims. As far as I know, those claims have all been pretty well falsified.
the point is that if your only argument against it is scientific, you leave out the morality part
GcL
GcL
Regrettably, eugenics isn't a thing entirely relegated to history. There are modern rehashes of it. It's one of the reasons we are careful when doing genome wide association studies and why access to linked phenotypic data sets is limited.
or the classification of people as people if you focus on the fact that humans are still all the same species as your main argument
just because it's true doesn't mean it entirely deflects some of the sneaky pseudoscience employed by certain arguments
@GcL oh believe me I'm well aware that it hasn't been completely thrown in the trash where it belongs
GcL
GcL
08:48
@trogdor The sciences aren't amoral endeavors. Plenty of learning health systems models and projects, for example, that include a broad set of antiracist arguments and actions. In many cases, because they underlying systemic racism that has been baked into many aspects is opposing the stated goals of building better health systems.
but it doesn't always play out that way
I'm not trying to say science has no place in this argument
I'm saying that the point is to not let science stand as a sole argument for moral imperatives
moral imperatives have to be treated as what they are
something that can and should stand on their own feet when required or even at all times
GcL
GcL
I would expect a moral imperative to stand on the strength of evidence of what is or has been underpinning a model of what a better "should be" looks like.
ok well I will posit this then, if your moral imperative only defines humans as creatures that deserve the respect of a person, what if there were other people who weren't humans who that didn't cover? IE the earlier example of orcs. elves, ect.
and what does that say for the way people can treat animals?
what I'm saying is, if the only reason to treat other humans well is the argument that humans are all humans you miss the moral imperative to treat all people with respect, or even to be more extreme to treat all living things even animals or plants or bugs as if they deserve to exist
a purely scientific argument misses some of the moral argument
that's all that is being contested here
GcL
GcL
@trogdor I suspect we disagree about what science encompases.
09:05
I have to assume we do at this point
because I don't think science as it stands is nearly flexible enough to tackle every moral issue on it's own merit
I'm not even talking about the concept of science itself which is another beast in itself, but science as it is currently applied
I believe science, while important in it's own right, does not encompass every field of universal understanding
morality, and spirituality, culture, just to name three fields off the top of my head are not encompassed within science and don't deserve to be treated as subservient to science in any way
this isn't to say science isn't important at all, but it is not the be all end all master of all categories
not to mention that even if it were, our current understanding of it is not and never will be completely perfect
so using it to judge other categories of understanding is folly
at least to a certain extent, without using other factors as weight
there isn't anything wrong with debunking scientific arguments for racism or that kind of thing, but there is something wrong with thinking that is by any means even close to all we have to do
I think science is great to be fair and honest about it, but it always has to be kept in mind that our current understanding of it is going to change because that's just how it works
because our understanding of it is never going to be perfect at any time, and in fact we are better for it if we keep an open mind about that
we make science better by the very act of questioning it, but that doesn't work if it's the only metric we have by itself
other avenues of thought are great levers to force our frame of thought to examine science by other angles and see if we missed anything
not to mention I think it's a little unhealthy to hold Science as a higher ideal than other modes of thought
both for us and for Science itself
basically I believe our understanding of science is and should be subservient to the Truth, and not the other way around
that means that science is itself less perfect than the Truth, but that's fine as long as we can acknowledge that
there is certainly an ideal of science that it should always deal in the truth, but in practicality we don't always know if our science is right, and that uncertainly serves us badly if it is our only pillar of understanding
now some other categories can be,.. a little misty as well, morality is not entirely objective in that people can disagree on points of morality and still have points, certain religions even within the same religion can still disagree on key points, cultures can have different ways of doing things even within the same macro culture
but if you make any of those things subservient to science all you do is magnify those disagreements or differences in a negative way
when instead all of those things should be applied but not in an intrusive way
I won't say science is the only one that has been used intrusively, religion is a big one that has itself even intruded on science, but science has intruded on culture and morality in negative ways sometimes, even if not intentionally
09:40
Upcoming: Settlers of the Dead God Play as a fearless insectoid adventurer in Settlers of the Dead God, the OSR fantasy adventure roleplaying game (CW: bugs)
sorry about the wall o text everyone
 
1 hour later…
11:15
@bobble Supposedly, but I'm not from the part of norway where it's a delicacy so can't speak to it personally
11:57
@trogdor naw your're good
I'll turn it on its head. The *effects* of magic are *largely* observables in the real world. Pushing something, freezing something, changing something's location, creating something of nothing. Those are already represented by physical units.
But there are things that magic does that *don't* have physical analogues: charm, necromancy/healing, illusion, e.g. I'd be tempted to have the thaum tied into all those things.
The way I explain it is this: Faith is belief without proof, and Science is proof without belief.
You need both, science doesn't/can't cover enough
On a similar topic, in the game-without-a-name-or-plan I was thinking of Splitting starting character choices into 'heritage' and 'origin'. So for instance, Carrot from the discworld might have - Heritage: 'Dwarf', Origin: 'Unrealised King'.
12:16
@AncientSwordRage eh honestly I would classify science and religion a lot more closely together than that
They take a different kind of faith but they both take faith in something
Science just takes faith that what you have observed is real and repeatable while religion takes faith that what you believe is true
On a completely separate topic: I'm trying to figure out what salamanders eat in D&D 5e. What sort of food exists in the Plane of Elemental Fire?
@nitsua60 Arguably those have physical analogues; charm and healing would be specific manipulations of biochemistry, and illusion either neural or creation/manipulations of light/sound. They'd be way more intricate and there's less net energy but you could construct explanations
Throwing my own idea into the mix, you could have thaum be a fundamental unit (similar to coulomb), with thaums measuring the thing (field, maybe) which makes the normal laws of physics break (allowing the creation of energy and/or the reversal of entropy)
"The laws of thermodynamics of course assume a constant thaum-field, similar to how the Newtonian laws assume non-relativistic speeds"
@BBeast Do they need to eat, aren't they elementals? Or do you have a specific use for which they need to eat?
@BESW Is this resurging, or just a note prompted by the previous conversation?
@Someone_Evil The MM conspicuously lacks the usual line on salamanders not requiring food.
@Someone_Evil Sure, but they're also so complex/inexplicable (we don't even know if illusions are external or internal to the subject!), that a thaum would be a likely intermediate step. Like the positron or the neutrino =D
12:32
@nitsua60 I suspect I don't want to get myself entangled with arcano-quantum-mechanics
Salamanders are still very much elementals, so their diet probably doesn't resemble that of fleshy creatures.
But they have otherwise normal-looking life-cycles
@trogdor That seems to be taking a pretty broad interpretation of the word faith, something along the lines of 'not solipsism'. While that's a useful category in some contexts, it seems very far from the scope that usually discusses comparisons/differences between religion and science.
@BBeast If you're specifically looking for a canonical answer, that would probably work as a mainsite Q
@Someone_Evil It probably would.
@Someone_Evil The action's probably spooky =D
12:41
Until then, I could just claim that there is some unspecified food chain in the Elemental Plane of Fire and the salamanders in the volcano I'm making can go on hunting trips back to the Elemental Plane. Doesn't answer what food they'd stash in their lair, though.
Do they have to hunt on the plane of fire? Could they hunt flail snails on the plane of earth for instance?
Salamanders are explicitly native to the Plane of Fire. If their food all lived on another Plane they might have some trouble getting food (even if the Elemental Planes are connected)
With them being fiery and egg-laying, I'm enjoying the idea of their diet including a fair amount of calcium rich rock and nitrites
Hmm TIL calsium nitrate is called Norwegian salpeter, so I guess I have to use that idea at some point
Though it doesn't seem to have any natural mineral forms, so shrug
13:01
@nitsua60 The mainsite question is still active and I finally had an extra spoon to talk about the kinds of pitfalls I see people hit with that topic regularly.
@BESW Extra Spoons are rare, I think you used it well
@trogdor I do sort of agree
I don't call trusting what I observe faith, but I do see what you mean
@BBeast ghost peppers are about the only thing hot enough to eat on the plane of fire, and rocks of some sort.
rpg.stackexchange.com/q/195189/48827 Posted an official question
@BBeast Ignoring the tedious humdrum of D&D literalism, salamanders in folklore and mystic traditions are described at least as far back as Aristotle, but it's the Talmud which gives them a fiery nature and by the 1400s Leonardo da Vinci wrote that it "has no digestive organs, and gets no food but from the fire."
This question should be good to reopen.
13:16
@BESW Sounds like something for me to consider.
It was originally associated with water by the Greeks (salamanders come out during rain) and they said it could quench any fire. Later European sources also grouped salamanders with the poison-breathing lizards like the cockatrice.
@BBeast Frost salamanders hunt warm blooded creatures.
I'm not aware of any specific dietary notes outside of "lives on fire" but the poison-breathed version was reported to climb fruit trees and enter wells which suggests it may have had a more mundane diet.
(Side note: Europeans would sometimes describe Chinese asbestos-fiber clothing, which could be cleaned with fire rather than by washing, as "salamander wool," complete with descriptions of salamanders bred for their cocoons like silkworms. It's unclear how much of this was genuine confusion with silkworms, Chinese guides having a joke, or clever marketing.)
"asbestos fiber clothing" eye twitches nervously
(Asbestos cloth was a popular party trick in a lot of places. Charlemagne may have had a tablecloth made of the stuff.)
 
1 hour later…
14:41
Are mathematical axioms like Pokemon games? - question at math.se exploring the possibility of "trade offs" in mathematical axiom selection.
@TheOracle Apparently I didnt save my spreadsheet from last year, yay! I'll get the analysis on this up some time this week.
1
Q: Is there a way to blend hex and square grid for battle maps?

SuperzI'm new to hexes and not too experienced with map-making in general, and I want to expand my understanding of them. While I was figuring out how radiuses would work for things like spells on a hex map, I was a little stumped when it came to cubes and squares. I have a few questions about getting ...

16:08
@ThomasMarkov Talk about underpromising and overdelivering... "some time this week" = "in about five minutes" =D
16:28
@nitsua60 well I wasn’t wrong.
17:19
@ThomasMarkov that comment looks super confusing, so I'm removing it.
I just noticed that is looks like I'm talking about questions.
@Akixkisu lol what were you talking about
@ThomasMarkov My brain was going through comment threads closed and moved to chat.
@Akixkisu Ah
Which kind of lets me track how much my comment flagging habit change impacted site activity — to a degree.
We had a notable decline in unprotections in 2021, unprotections were down 77,500%.
17:24
@ThomasMarkov The anomaly of no anomaly.
 
1 hour later…
18:34
@ThomasMarkov I keep meaning to run this on sci-fi
Hello World! Kto bym tut pogadal po-połsku?
18:55
@HennaGaijinuser199525 not sure if anybody here speaks polish?
 
1 hour later…
20:01
@ThomasMarkov compared to... 2022? Compared to the first hour of 2022?
@Phoenices In 2020 we had a user unilaterally unprotect over 700 questions.
In 2021 a total of 9 questions were unprotected.
wait, but that still doesn't add up. That would mean that about 7000 questions were unprotected in 2020, unless you're talking about total change in number of protected questions.
@Phoenices Ah, you are right, that whole column was wrong on that chart. It's been updated.
Only a 99% reduction in unprotections from 2020 to 2021
@Phoenices it's a 2020 to 2021 comparison
 
1 hour later…
21:26
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica that's fair, I'm just trying to illustrate how the thoughts people have about an avenue of thoughts and ideas can be more similar at least in concept than they tend to assume
there are people who take scientific discovery and understanding just as much like Gospel as religiously inclined people
even though the point should really be "this is our best understanding right now" rather than "this is exactly how it is because science says so"
@trogdor Yeah, that's definitely a problem, especially because such dogmatic followers are easy to confuse for scientific individuals.
I'm not literally trying to say science is a religion itself, or that it's ultimately tied to faith automatically, I'm just saying that sometimes people treat it that way despite not having literal proof in front of their faces
and then sometimes even go so far as to mock people who do that in any other context
such as religion or culture
not accusing anyone here at all, but I have witnessed that behavior in other online spaces and even in person before
@trogdor Oh yeah, that definitely exists. So long as it's not assumed to be the only way, it does seem to be an accurate observation.
'How would you know had things been different than how you're currently saying they are' is a question that, I think, is pretty important to ask a lot of the time, because it can be tempting to rush past it without considering it.
yeah I don't mean it to sound like the only possible approach
but to some extent you also do have to have some faith in scientific discovery
you can't test literally everything yourself all the time XD
in fact I would say it's kinda stupid to say, test which mushrooms are poisonous yourself if you already have established knowledge to that effect for example
or which snakes you don't want to be bitten by
21:44
@trogdor yeah that's true, I see how my earlier statement wasn't as helpful as I'd intended
no I mean I don't expect people to immediately know what I'm talking about
I think I was trying to get across that with science you should be able to provide evidence/logic/arguments. And yeah we have to have 'faith' what's presented as scientific knowledge is accurate, and only a current understanding, but unlike religion/belief the chain of proof ends somewhere different... I guess?
@trogdor Seems like that one has to do with needing some degree of trusting other individuals to function, heh.
@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica hmm I would once again make a mysterious comparison between that statement and religion
@AncientSwordRage there are definite differences
@AncientSwordRage Probably. A common choice for philosophical and scientific chain-end is 'if these axioms turn out to be untrue, then we would be so lost than all our related search for knowledge would be entirely hopeless'. (Solipsism and/or Boltzmann Brain turning out true is an example of such a 'catastrophic' assumption being mismatch.)
@trogdor Similarities and differences.
I'm not sure whether discussing the differences I've witnessed is . . . well, worthwhile, from the PoV of writing something new for the local audience (vs. repeating something everyone in the room already is thinking about).
22:04
Part of the trouble with Science is it doesn't prove anything is true, just things that are false. Do that enough, and you gain confidence in an assertion because you've tried many things that would demonstrate it false, and they all failed.
Mathematics is different, in that you give it some assumptions and it tells you what's definitely true, definitely false, a contradiction, or unknowable from the assumptions. It's then up to you to try applying any of that to the real world.
They have good synergy because you can use a mathematical model to produce falsifiable statements that science can chew on, giving you better confidence that your mathematical model is correct, or how far off it is. You then add in an error term to your model, then start looking for explanations for that term.
You run into issues applying science to things like religion, spirituality, and culture because it's extremely difficult to make a repeatable, refutable claim from them.
It's easy to develop faith-like views of science on the grounds that you don't know anything about it, but someone (or a collection of someones) is an expert and does know this stuff to a high degree of likelihood.
22:42
I think it's useful to remember that concepts like "faith" have wildly divergent definitions even within outwardly coherent "faith communities."
The originating concept of this conversation, that science is not a wellspring of ethical knowledge, was the simple observation that science doesn't claim to make value judgements. Scientific endeavors should be undertaken ethically, and their learning can inform ethical decision-making, but scientific investigation cannot itself define morality; we must find our ethical touchstones elsewhere.
(There is a peculiar brand of Christian atheism which treats the body of scientific knowledge as a replacement for sacred texts; this is usually built on the condescending misconception that the purpose of religion is to explain things.)
22:57
Yeah I'm not trying to say that science is a religion
I'm saying that we still rely on faith as a property of not having tested every scientific fact we know
And in the original context of using science to debunk racism, I think Toni Morrison's observation at a 1975 Portland State speech is relephant.
> The function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being.
Somebody says you have no language and you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn’t shaped properly so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing.
Yeah
This can in fact apply to basically every form of bigotry
But anyway, my point isn't that science is inherently a religion
I was actually just trying to point out at first before the topic took a spin that some people actually erroneously treat it like it is
One of the important ethical choices in the application of science is being careful about what we spend time doing science at, like debunking pseudoscience instead of making moral arguments which show the very premise that science is applicable to racism.
Even to go so far as to either raise science as thier religion above religions similarly to how some people treat religion they personally believe in
Or alternatively like they should be fighting science because it points out something that they assume contradicts thier religious beliefs
Which isn't helped by the first point for sure

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