TRPG General Chat

TheDragonOfFlame

00:32

I’ve played free form: not for me.

@bobble at this point I’ve given up hoping to play and just want to learn a new system, prep a short adventure and make a few character sheets. Maybe do a test combat or something.

GcL

@TheDragonOfFlame There's always Ars Magica... you could get an associates degree in medival history!

BESW

@TheDragonOfFlame have you considered solo games?

Hot RPG Questions

00:49

2

Q: Do these metamagic options function by RAW?

Yeah I need a list to help me unravel this abomination, found in the spoiler dropdown. Uber Damage Spell fusion: Lesser Orb of Acid (1d6/level-> 9d6) Metamagic applied: Energy Substitution-> force Braid spell + Twin Spell + Dual Spell (base spell X 16) Heighten Spell (goes from level 1 to level ...

Shalvenay

@TheDragonOfFlame yeah, I don't think I'd want to go back to full-on freeform play myself

TheDragonOfFlame

01:13

@BESW I’ve tried. It’s never really worked too well for me.

AncientSwordRage

Hi BESW

BESW

[wave]

AncientSwordRage

yay

BESW

?

AncientSwordRage

just in that mood of enjoying people waving

BESW

01:27

[wave]

AncientSwordRage

:D

BESW

BJ Games wrote a twitter thread about "what I did exactly for #SinaUna"

Note to self: read Ironsworn, specifically to see how it manages to support GMed, GMless, and solo play.

@AncientSwordRage I get the weirdness around playbooks. My first encounters with them were... not very well written? And I bounced off hard and took a long time to give it a second try.

They're, like, bespoke a la carte? and that's a wild conceptual space to exist in.

But I also super love how having a mechanic that's unique to a particular context, means it can be off the wall bonkers without worrying too much about how it might interact alongside every other mechanic that's ever been written; you just have to consider with the other things on the same page. And that gives a lot more potential for variety at the table not only because each playbook can be dramatically different... but because it encourages people to write their own playbooks.

Writing your own playbook for a PbtA game is much less Serious Business than writing a class for D&D, because it's a self-contained object. And that's why PbtA games have so much third-party indie self-pub content.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I'm glad you said that, because I think I came across them from you first, so I sort of think of you as their spokesperson (rightly or wrongly 🤷‍♀️)

BESW

Another thing is that while mechanically there's not a big difference between Apocalypse World playbooks and Lady Blackbird playbooks, they straddle the difference between archetypes and individuals in ways that make comparing them in action difficult.

But archetype playbooks, to my mind, are very very similar to D&D classes in concept: You wanna be a ranger? Here's a list of things that are common for "rangers" to have/do/be. Some of them you just get, some you have to choose between in order to distinguish YOUR ranger from others, and some things you'll get access to as you play.

@AncientSwordRage Oh gosh. I like the idea of playbooks, and especially their role in normalizing indie self-pub, but playbooks are also weird and can be done very badly and a lot of the most famous games with playbooks are... not the ones I'd point to as really awesome examples of how I like playbooks.

Which is kinda what I was saying in the first place about jay dragon's thread: that writing lists (and playbooks are basically just curated lists) is easy to do but very VERY hard to do well.

I think the first time I ran into playbooks I clicked with at all, it was Aeon Wave (the adventure module is $3 but the character sheets are free).

AncientSwordRage

01:50

absorbs information like a plant on an especially sunny day

BESW

The way I see it, playbooks and classes are both ways for the designer to make a statement about the game and how they expect it to be played. A ranger class and a ranger playbook both say "This is a game that has rangers and this is the range of what I think they're like and what I expect to be important about them if someone plays one."

AncientSwordRage

hmmm, maybe they can be viewed as top down/bottom up approaches to the same thing

BESW

Aeon Wave has the Six Dwarves of Cyberpunk: Shooty, Tricky, Snipey, Hacky, Sneaky, and Tinker.

AncientSwordRage

that feels very fate-esque

BESW

Aeon Wave is built on Fate Core.

It tricked me into liking playbooks with its version of partly-pre-made characters.

I used it as inspiration for my Doctor Who character sheets.

AncientSwordRage

02:08

oooh

BESW

I probably wouldn't write strictly Aeon Wave style playbooks now, but it was my gateway into reconsidering the idea of playbooks.

Then Lady Blackbird sold me on the idea as a way to curate a very narrow vision without putting hobbles on the players.

I've seen so many wildly different versions of the Lady Blackbird characters, each totally congruous with the playbooks.

Playbooks are also valuable as tools to speed up the time from "I have never heard of this game" to "I am playing this game," because a new player doesn't need to choose between learning the entire game's character creation mechanics, or using a character someone else made for them.

Adeptus

@BESW I've only skimmed the rules... and that was from a "do I want to play it? can I convince my group to play it?" point of view, not a design/research point of view.

BESW

They can choose from a small list of archetypes, answer some simple narrative-focused questions, and be ready to play with a solid sense of what their character is like.

It's kinda like how a game like Masters of Umdaar makes character creation easier by giving guided questions for each aspect.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, a more playbook-focused approach would have helped me avoid the trajectory towards epic-fail I ran into with one of my current characters

BESW

Playbooks don't eliminate trap choices, because playbooks are often poorly written, but they isolate traps and make it easier to recognize, recover, and excise.

Playbooks are also kinda cool for me to consider, design-wise, because they can be fractal like Fate characters.

You can have playbooks for places, groups, items, anything that it makes sense to treat with the attention and complexity of a character.

Sorry, dating myself with that term. The Bronze Rule is "In Fate, you can treat anything in the game world like it’s a character. Anything can have aspects, skills, stunts, stress tracks, and consequences if you need it to."

BESW

03:02

@AncientSwordRage I will happily talk about Primeval, because it's such a silly show that regularly stumbles over itself, but it's also got some absolutely brilliant conceits holding it together. If I were to make a TRPG about time travel I'd crib heavily from Primeval.

2

(But, ah, nothing from its notions about romance or gender please, I see nothing to salvage there.)

AncientSwordRage

11:12

@BESW I think that kind of TRPG would be great, and you could easily leverage the timetravel aspects to rachet up tension when appropriate

BESW

In Primeval there are two core tensions in an average story of the week: (a) creatures from another time are in modern Britain and that's causing problems; (b) we don't know how likely it is that this is going to rip space/time apart.

Together these make the give-and-take of decision-making in the episode: the goal is to de-escalate the current crisis by returning the creatures safe to when they came, but "de-escalate the current crisis" would be a lot easier if "return safely" wasn't also a priority.

Yes there's an allosaurus trapped in a shopping mall and it would be VERY easy to just shoot the thing, but we've gotta tranq it and find the portal it came through before it closes (because we don't know how to open portals yet).

And if you do accidentally muck up history? Well that's a great excuse to swap characters, drop boring plots, reshuffle the backstories, and sidestep away from any tedious continuity.

AncientSwordRage

11:33

@BESW it sounds like you need a system that lets you juggle two separate success criteria

it sounds like it could make good reskinning of Arkham Horror (or which ever board game has the horror track?), but I don't know how you encapsulate that within an RPG

BESW

11:58

Off the top of my head: the portal has a countdown clock, and the crisis has a value which successful actions cumulate to meet, InSpectres style.

Or maybe Danger Patrol style?

The trick is, in Primeval things rarely escalate so much that the masquerade is unfixably broken.

that’s a cap which is trickier to enforce in a game.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW seems like it to me

sounds like it would be fun regardless

In other news, I am now being medicated for my ADHD!

BESW

12:14

Grats!

Good luck on getting the right Rx quickly.

AncientSwordRage

thanks! Already have questions because my email says not to take after 4pm... but the doctor said some people take the last dose of the day at home...

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast We just edited an answer at approximately the same time, but it looks like my edit (which came after) had most of the same things yours had plus a few more.

OP deleted this question right after it was closed, keep an eye out for a repost, we will need to undelete and dupe target if that happens.

(Ive already voted to undelete, it's a good question, I think, it just needs one last detail.)

doppelgreener

12:30

that said, if they repost it except notably better, then all's well and we don't really need to do anything

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener This is probably the most utilitarian take, though some may prefer a more procedural approach where the close-improve-reopen process is respected.

doppelgreener

yes but that's creating added work and frustration for everybody

Thomas Markov

I mean, it probably doesn't create frustration for the people who prefer that approach, I imagine you suggestion creates some measure of frustration for them. I dont much care either way.

I did leave a mod flag asking them to suggest that the question really is okay, it just needs that one last detail. I'd like to see it reopened with a target level, I think it's a perfectly workable question for us.

doppelgreener

having to go through the steps of undeleting, then closing, requires added work. it's frustrating and makes a worse experience for the querent if the second version is just fine.

historically we deal with that scenario by telling them "hey, this is better, but please don't do that" and if there's still outstanding issues, we re-close and ask them to clarify those but we don't disturb the original because there's no need at this point.

if they repost with no changes then that just warrants telling them off :P

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener Eh, depending on who's around to work the curation we have quite often undeleted the original and dupe targeted the repost, and then edited the improvements into the original, and asked them not to do that. But again, that's when there are those around who are happy to do the work for the sake of procedural correctness.

doppelgreener

12:38

i think prioritising the procedural correctness in the situation is not the right way to go

2

Someone_Evil

And I think that's also been when it's been very close to just reposting, and as I recall a fair few of them would be closed in the new state too

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener Youre probably right, unless, as you said, they are obviously just circumventing closure by reposting the same thing without fixing the issues.

Someone_Evil

But it's often a lot of effort and just asking them not to do it in future is totally fair, and often better

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov i mean, even in that situation i would not undelete and dupe it

i'd just call them out for reposting the identical question with problems and close the new one for the same reason the original was closed

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener But if the original happens to get undeleted the new one can be closed with one vote instead of five.

doppelgreener

12:41

oh, yes

if it's already undeleted

we're talking about the "it was deleted" scenario

in that scenario, the most efficient way to get the new question closed is just to close it for the same close reason

if you can find two people to undelete with you, you can probably find four to close vote the new one

a moderator can trivially do the undelete, close as dupe thing

Someone_Evil

The main thing you're preserving by undeleting the original is votes and comments

Votes are a bit maybe, because if the question is now much better, keeping the old downvotes is less of an issue. Similarly a lot of the comments would probably be obsolete.

Medix2

Unless it's a repost and the comments were asking for clarifications

But I suppose you can always copy paste them all into a mega comment

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Oh look, its someone who participates with me in undeletes and dupe closures :P

Someone_Evil

If it's just a repost, the question is not "now much better"

Akixkisu

I think there is no harm in casting four undelete votes, and leaving it at that until more happens.

Either they age out or become useful.

Medix2

12:50

I definitely think flat out undeleting the OP's post when a reposting doesn't exist yet could come across very poorly

There aren't any answers under it that warrant saving with with undelete

Akixkisu

@Medix2 sure, but it doesn't look like that is anyone's intention.

So really a non-issue.

Medix2

Oh, I thought you just said to do that

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu I mean, it was my and at least one other person's intention

Someone_Evil

Yup, querents are allowed to retract questions without answers.

@Akixkisu 3 undelete votes for a post, and I don't think they ever age out

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil my bad then, I misremembered.

KorvinStarmast

12:53

@ThomasMarkov A different version of a help pile, I suppose. 😊

Akixkisu

Having undelete votes there isn't an issue, undeleting without further action would be, I suppose I agree with that.

Medix2

> Votes to delete or undelete never expire.

Someone_Evil

I do generally disagree with casting undelete votes on things that shouldn't be undeleted, though

Akixkisu

Why?

BESW

The thing about delete/undelete votes is, they're one per user per post.

Thomas Markov

12:54

@Akixkisu That was kind of a tautology lol

Medix2

Voting for something to happen while believing it shouldn't happen seems... strange

BESW

And we've got a small enough contingent of active voters that a contentious post just... runs out of people who can vote on it, after it's been deleted and undeleted a couple of times.

Akixkisu

There is a difference between an undeletion/deletion vote that we don't act upon since they are threshold votes. All votes until the last vote only expedite the process of action once an action is warranted.

BESW

So overeager voting on a question that's in flux (so the need to delete or undelete keeps changing) eventually kicks it to the mods for resolution when they wouldn't have been needed otherwise.

And that's not to mention the fact that votes attract votes.

A vote to delete or undelete is, itself, seen as an argument for that action by other voters who might otherwise be on the fence.

Someone_Evil

@Akixkisu Because all you're really doing is upgrading someone else to undeleting it on a single vote, when they don't have that privilege. And you're doing that on a whim that it might be reposted.

Medix2

12:59

@BESW >There is no system-imposed limit on the number of times you can vote to delete or undelete a post: if you voted to delete and it was subsequently undeleted, you can vote to delete again, and vice versa. Note that some sites, including Stack Overflow, have community-imposed limits on voting to delete or undelete a post multiple times.

BESW

So casting the vote doesn't just expedite the action "once it's warranted," it actively encourages.

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil I have best faith in the community.

I generally assume that they will not act to vandalise.

BESW

@Medix2 That's changed since I last encountered the issue, then.

Someone_Evil

Your trust is admirable, but this is at best generating a really noisy signal around undeletion

BESW

Vandalism and other bad faith aciton isn't even the issue here?

Akixkisu

13:02

I'm comfortable with relegation of power to other trusted members. The votes attracting votes argument is a good point, I'll have to think about it.

BESW

That's a weird thing to pivot to, when Someone is talking about whether or not one person should be given the power to make that choice at all regardless, and I'm talking about how seeing four votes makes a person inclined to trust those voters and cast the deciding vote.

Akixkisu

You need 10k rep to cast delete votes.

BESW

A vote that isn't the deciding vote is still a vote that has weight and should be made thoughtfully. Being NOT the deciding vote doesn't absolve users of the obligation to vote thoughtfully and deliberately.

Akixkisu

Not anyone can do that.

BESW

I fail to see how that's relephant.

Everyone in this conversation knows that.

Everyone in this conversation also knows, many from bitter personal experience, that 10k rep is not any guarantee of... anything except dogged persistence.

Akixkisu

13:04

Any user with 10k rep should be aware of the effects of the action, and helping out to expediate the process when action is needed is a valuable good.

KorvinStarmast

OK, so I cast an undelete vote (possibly my first ever on a question?) on the question.

BESW

That applies to users casting all votes, not just deciding ones.

Akixkisu

Sure.

BESW

"This question might need to be undeleted later" is not a valuable good.

It is speculation.

KorvinStarmast

And now it's deleted again, so never mind.

BESW

13:06

Voting that way undermines the basic idea that the choice should be made for the current state of the question.

Shall I go cast undelete votes on every question that might be worth undeleting someday?

I'm not doing anything else with my votes this week.

Thomas Markov

I voted to undelete because it's a good question that needs a single detail to make it answerable. OP literally has to say a single number and we can answer it.

Someone_Evil

But even with that number, if the querent doesn't want it asked anymore it would be fine to be deleted

Medix2

Well, yeah, but we can't tell the difference between "Somebody downvoted my question and it is CLOSED: delete" and "I no longer wish to ask this: delete"

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil Sure. That's why I flagged it for you, it looks like a misunderstanding, so thanks for leaving that comment.

BESW

Right, and the signal for that would be... the edit.

Akixkisu

13:10

@BESW When a trusted community member has good reason to vote - and one amplifies that vote but leaves up the decision to a third voter, then I call that valid voting. No one here is going around randomly casting votes.

BESW

It's not like we leave questions to languish in the editing queue for days, or even hours. Our review turnaround is very good.

Thomas Markov

@BESW I love it when I go to other stacks and have flags age away. /S

Akixkisu

Sometimes that ends up in a worse decision - that is also fine.

BESW

It seems like a strange solution to a non problem, is all.

And it's being stated as a generalized principle that feels quite shaky.

Someone_Evil

@Akixkisu I disagree that there was a good reason to vote to undelete in this case. It could hypothetically be reposted is not a good reason to undelete a post

Akixkisu

13:12

But after all, it is a collaborative effort. Not some sort of rogue user going about to vandalise, but an honest motivation behind it. I have no issue supporting that initiative.

Medix2

@BESW I don't think you can edit self deleted questions

Akixkisu

@Medix2 you can't.

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu It's funny you should say that, I almost exclusively where t shirts with "ROGUE" printed across the chest. I own 9 of them.

BESW

@Medix2 Then either they un-self-delete (if that's possible) or they make a new post that is fine and there's no reason to go through all the hoopla of undeleting and dupe-closing because nothing of value was lost except somewhere a policy wonk's monocle popped.

Akixkisu

Other users can edit self-deleted questions.

BESW

13:15

This all seems wildly overcomplicated.

Medix2

So I can see a point of "they deleted the question, and it only needs a small edit, an edit they cannot make unless we undelete the question". But like... we could just wait for a repost as well and avoid the possible feeling the OP gets when something they wanted gone was uncontrollably, against their will, made not gone

Thomas Markov

@BESW I think the depth to which we have discussed the philosophies here makes it seem more complicated than it really is.

BESW

Just... wait to see what the user does and respond to the reality of the situation.

@ThomasMarkov I fail to see how discussing the principle being the praxis is more complicated than the fallout of implementing praxis without principle.

Of course when we talk about the right course of action we'd talk about the reasoning behind the choices. That's... not some artificially added complexity, it's just part of responsible reflection and consultation.

Medix2

I think Markov was saying that the amount that many of us have already talked and discussed these sorts of things, the sheer number of things we're thinking about, makes it complicated? Or I misread it entirely

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Yeah, that's it.

BESW

13:20

Yeah, no, that's not the complexity I'm talking about. I'm literally saying that speculating on possible scenarios and voting in anticipation of them is more complex than waiting to see what happens.

The only justification I've seen for taking pre-emptive action is expediency, which (a) we're already one of the fastest review queues in the ~~West~~ Stack Exchange and (b) being poised to push the button we think is right, makes us more likely to push it even if it turns out to be the wrong button--that's a basic principle of false efficiency.

Medix2

Well, as mentioned earlier, if we wait to see what happens and then undelete and dupe close the new one (thus preventing the old one from being deleted, btw), we've potentially become more complicated

BESW

If we wait to see what happens and then act based on that information, it will be whatever seems fitted to the reality of the situation at the time and that's quite the best we can hope for.

Complexity is not bad where it is warranted.

Medix2

I definitely think I'd rather wait in these sorts of scenarios

Thomas Markov

Ideally, OP would just pick a number between 6 and 20, but that's neither here nor there for this conversation.

BESW

There are situations where pre-defined plans are necessary because rapid response is vital. There are very few of these on a Q&A site about games.

Medix2

13:26

I also laughed when I read "that's a basic principle of false efficiency" (a thing I had never heard of). I image it is like when non-math people read "thats a basic principle of Hausdorff spaces"

BESW

Hahah yes.

Basically we can fool ourselves into thinking we're being efficient but actually doing a lot of extra work. One way we do this is by having the wrong action be the one it's easiest to enact. This feels very efficient until we have to clean up afterwards.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 I've got this book called Counterexamples in Topology, and when I was first working through it, there were several toplogical spaces described where I read the construction and was like "of course this is going to be hausdorff" and then it wasn't even hausdorff.

BESW

It's part of why a lot of PRESS IN CASE OF EMERGENCY buttons have a latched cover: not just to keep you from pressing it during a non-emergency, but to give you an extra moment to be sure it's the right emergency for the button.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Gosh that sounds hilarious, and painful

Thomas Markov

Like I'm sitting here thinking, this is probably a normal space, and set about proving it was normal, and it wasn't even hausdorff. Like, come on man.

Medix2

13:29

@BESW And to be sure it's the right emergency button

When work has FOUR emergency buttons....

BESW

I assume that these are hausdorffs.

AncientSwordRage

I am using my new found powers to post meta questions

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage You have new powers?

Medix2

@AncientSwordRage Do we warn people when answering closed questions even?

Akixkisu

@BESW I think there are two cases here, the initial and the second undelete vote, and their compelling reasons are distinct. We shouldn't conflate the reasoning. A second undelete vote makes choosing a third undelete vote more persuasive to a degree, but the stakes of all three votes aren't equal, and only the third vote undeletes the question. Decision-making for all three votes and the onus is distinct, even when undeletion is a collaborative effort.

Someone_Evil

13:39

@Medix2 If your client knows it's closed, it won't let you answer it

Medix2

Yeah, but it doesn't always know that which... we probably can't do anything at all if that happens

Someone_Evil

In which case it isn't in a position to warn you either

Thomas Markov

And it's possible to bypass closure on purpose.

AncientSwordRage

1 hour ago, by AncientSwordRage

In other news, I am now being medicated for my ADHD!

Medix2

@Akixkisu Well, except in the, I would assume, quite rare case where votes are cast and the page isn't refreshed and more votes are cast with people thinking they are a different number vote than they are

Someone_Evil

13:42

@Akixkisu I don't think you should decide to cast undeletion votes based on whether others are there. Or in a different way, I don't think you should cast the first one, if you wouldn't have been willing to cast the last one

3

Medix2

Which, oddly enough, happened to me on this very question. I was going to vote, refreshed the page, and, upon seeing that my vote number changed, decided not to vote

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 what Someone_E said, but there's a small window apparently where you can answer a closed Q

Medix2

Despite having literally just done something that goes against what Someone_Evil said. I agree with what was said, and will try to internalize it more

Can low rep users see close votes? I forget

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil I think it should go into my reasoning. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't reflect, but any kind of vote will affect my decision-making.

Somtimes that leads to bad results.

But more often than not it leads to good results.

Medix2

36

Q: Tell answer-author when the question is being voted to close

When I am in the editor writing an answer to a question, the system will notify me (in real time!) when another answer has been posted. This is presumably so I can see if the new answer may have rendered my post somewhat redundant. Can we extend that same feature/courtesy to authors when a ques...

feature-request vote-to-close closed-questions low-quality-posts notification-bar

Is that the same @AncientSwordRage

Thomas Markov

13:50

@AncientSwordRage This small window is 4 hours.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov oh wow

@Medix2 looks close enough to me

not sure whether it's better to close mine in as a dupe and not get the feature or if it's worth revisting?

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil You will notice that I will occasionally ask here in chat about why someone made a specific choice. I often do so when I don't reach the same conclusion as the user, and I think they often make valuable contributions - they might see something that I miss.

Someone_Evil

That's fine when done nicely. We sometimes have to do something similar around flags. But it's very easy to misstep and appear as though you're asking someone to walk through their own mistake. I'd sorta assume everyone has (at least one) experience of a teacher or similar doing that

Akixkisu

I think it is generally a good idea to consider the choices of other experts, and let them affect your decision-making, even when it sometimes has bad results. But yes, the approach to those questions is another matter.

Medix2

Gosh MSE gets a lot of questions it seems

Someone_Evil

14:01

Compared to our meta? Yes

If you want a real stream of a lot of questions, drop by SO at your own risk

Medix2

14:11

Yeah, it's terrifying over there

What is the Anonymous Feedback privilege?

Supposedly it is at 10k, but the link I found goes to a page I don't have the rep to view, and the RPG.SE 10k page doesn't mention it at all?

Someone_Evil

rpg.stackexchange.com/tools/post-feedback/summary

It's in the links part of the 10k tools

Medix2

Weird that the page doesn't mention it at all

bobble

I think it's also on SEDE

Someone_Evil

There's some interesting stuff in there, but not exceptionally useful and I don't think there's anything too surprising

@Medix2 Which page?

Medix2

The 10k page

The supposed list of 10k features

Thomas Markov

14:17

It's at the bottom of this page

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 Huh, feature req?

Medix2

I don't follow

Someone_Evil

Make a feature request suggesting it is added?

Medix2

I have found the tool, and see that it is there. But, for some reason, the page that I would most assume should tell me about this ability, does not tell me anything

Ah, yeah, I will probably do that

Anybody know at what rep I gained access to question close stats and protected question stats?

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 There's an upper bound of 60614.

Medix2

14:27

I really hope the upper bound is 25000 XD

bobble

@Medix2 10k

Medix2

Apparently protected is 15k

bobble

Well, being able to protect questions is separate from seeing stats on protected questions

Medix2

Apparently not, as the page states:

> You may review the full list of protected questions to see which questions are being protected or identify questions that may benefit from being unprotected.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 I didnt say it was a good upper bound. But it's definitely an upper bound.

Medix2

14:30

Though... it could say that and still have given access at 10k, and just be a reminder, hmmm

bobble

I could see the list of protected questions on Lit before I could protect them

(That's the only site where I've hit the required rep for such things)

Thomas Markov

@bobble That's pretty lit.

Medix2

Interesting, guess I've got three feature requests to write XD

Or just put them all together into one, hmm

Akixkisu

/help/privileges will show the common ones, I think these are uniform.

Medix2

Yes, and I'm saying it doesn't list the ones I'm talking about

anonymous and low rep post feedback
question close stats
protected questions

Does anybody have 10k (but not 25k) on a site and can check if "site analytics" is part of the tools page links?

Akixkisu

14:35

@Medix2 I'm not sure whether it is the same word, but that is the 15rep one.

Medix2

@Akixkisu I don't follow?

Akixkisu

Anonymous Feedback

Is what you get a 15 rep.

bobble

15 rep is when you get the right to upvote, before that your votes are anonymous feedback

Medix2

Are you sure Akix?

Oh 15, yes, but I'm asking about looking at them not using them

Akixkisu

25k

Expanded traffic.

Medix2

14:37

This tool is a 10k tool

Well, if you can open it, Akixkisu? Can you?

Akixkisu

I can.

Medix2

Yeah, and my point is that nothing ever indicates that you gain access to that tool or the two others I mentioned earlier

Thomas Markov

For what it's worth, I've never even seen that post feedback page until today

Medix2

Exactly

Akixkisu

@Medix2 ah, so it is phrasing thing - this is the 10k one.

Thomas Markov

14:40

And I thought I had been pretty thorough in my review of the tools i had access to.

Akixkisu

The moderator tools one.

Medix2

They are all three, 10k tools, none of them are mentioned in the 10k tool description page

Oh Akix, does your Tools page include a "site analytics" link at the bottom?

Akixkisu

nope

Medix2

Akixkisu

That is not part of the moderator tools.

Yes, I have those.

Medix2

14:43

I take it it looks like that, with the one link removed?

Thomas Markov

thats a 25k tool

Akixkisu

Except for the site analaytics.

Medix2

Yeah, I'm just checking how it looks for those between 15 and 25

Okay, it's feature-request writing time

bobble

Any references you'd be interested in? I can dig up meta posts on specific topics if you'd like.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 And this is how MSE gets a lot of questions :p

Medix2

14:45

@Someone_Evil A lot of MEDIX... horrifying

Akixkisu

So you want to make "various lists and statistical reports" more explicit?

That is the exact wording from moderator tools.

Medix2

There is a lengthy bulleted list that mysteriously skips three and only three things

Akixkisu

One of my favourite things is reading the question close stats.

bobble

@Akixkisu on Lit they're incredibly boring due to the smallness of the site

Akixkisu

It also currently highlights something extremely funny.

Medix2

14:56

Okay I did laugh at "I’m voting to close this question because you need to grow up."

bobble

On Lit, all but one of the displayed custom close reasons are mine

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 wait is this an actual close reason somewhere?

Cuz Korvin wrote it in here on a post last week

Medix2

Apparently scroll to the bottom

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov yes, but(t) there is more to it.

Medix2

Oh by "actual" you meant non-custom, in that case, no, it is not an actual close reason

Thomas Markov

15:02

Ah, I guess that page records custom close reasons given

Ive never seen that page either

Medix2

Exactly

Akixkisu

I guess I'm more inclinded to look at what is available to click on.

Medix2

I think I just trusted the page telling me what I've gained access to to tell me what I've gained access to XD

Akixkisu

Make sure to share that feature-request, so I can upvote it.

It is unfortunate when people miss out on these tools.

bobble

1

Q: Some tools are not mentioned on the moderator tools information page, please add them

The only site on which I can view the 10k tools page is RPG.SE, so I'll be quoting and providing links and screenshots from there. The Moderator Tools informational page states: Access moderator tools You now have access to various lists and statistical reports, giving you a broad overview of ac...

feature-request privileges 10k-tools

Thomas Markov

15:08

Feel free to use me as a case study in your feature request. Something like “our most active user had no idea these pages existed.”

Akixkisu

How have I never asked myself whether Registered Feedback turns into votes proper once you reach the thresholds? (The answer is most likely no, but maybe partially?)

G. Moylan

I don't have 10k, need me to check something?

Medix2

There is a recent Meta on that, I think...

bobble

58

Q: Once I reach 15 reputation, will my old votes be taken into account?

Users below 15 reputation can't effectively vote. It says: Votes cast by those with less than 15 reputation are recorded, but do not change the publicly displayed post score Does it mean that they will take effect after I reach 15 reputation or because they were cast before, they're recorde...

support reputation voting post-feedback

Medix2

> This doesn't prevent the user from voting on the post later on when they have sufficient reputation to actually vote and it doesn't automatically count that vote once the user reaches the reputation necessary to cast real votes.

It's also apaprently, complicated... reading this and the comments might help

G. Moylan

15:15

what is the point of accepting votes if they don't "count"? What does the system do with those votes?

Medix2

Well, you can't vote, because it's locked away, but they probably also want anonymous feedback, though apaprently SE doesn't actually even use that, so it's purely for the enjoyment of stats people??

G. Moylan

"I get to click a thing!"

~ E N G A G E M E N T ~

Medix2

> "Anonymous feedback" is from unregistered profiles... so, someone created a profile but didn't actually register it. They can't ever vote, even with sufficient reputation... So the difference isn't "not logged in vs logged in" it's "registered account" vs "Unregistered account".

That might not be right, but it seems like it is

> Ironically, anonymous visitors can't give anonymous feedback.

bobble

It was used as part of a justification for why a post was good here

Medix2

The fact that you found that is astonishing, I'm glad they have a use

bobble

15:19

I definitely didn't trawl SO meta during last year's remote school lectures

Medix2

I'm still baffled at "anonymous feedback isn't feedback from anonymous users" ngl

bobble

And in a sense all votes are anonymous feedback, since the intention is for people to not connect voters with votes.

G. Moylan

@bobble damn, very nice find. also interesting.

Akixkisu

@Medix2 I feel validated.

AncientSwordRage

people seem to like to use it say they don't like stuff on Sci-Fi

Thomas Markov

15:24

I still don’t know what anonymous feedback is.

Medix2

It seems to be votes that are made by unregistered (but not anonymous) users and votes that are made by registered users who do not have enough reputation to actually vote. It records what they tried to vote, but does not actually change anything

Ignore me... gosh complications are hard. Fixed now, I hope

AncientSwordRage

case in point: Pony ages in My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic - feedback: 3560 / -5302

Akixkisu

15:41

I wish I could conjure an understanding about how effective reputation cost tied to downvotes is at preventing downvotes.

Medix2

I think some of it is to prevent people from only downvoting

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu for users under 1000 I imagine it helps. Otherwise it is probably meaningless.

bobble

It never mattered to me, but then I was always unusually concerned with helping moderation efforts.

Thomas Markov

It deterred me from downvoting until I realized how easily I could hit rep cap every day. Which was like day 3.

Akixkisu

I assume a substantial amount of people who deeply care about their reputation game it anyway by using capped reputation.

Slow typer, ha.

Thomas Markov

15:45

@Akixkisu yeah, I pretty quickly figured out that downvotes were basically free if you could hit rep cap.

Akixkisu

Only high bounties should be able to make power-answers hesitate.

Thomas Markov

@Akixkisu what do you mean?

Akixkisu

In terms of reputation costs tied to actions.

G. Moylan

high bounties? you have my attention :P

Thomas Markov

Oh yeah.

I’ve gotten to the point where I’ll drop a 500 point bounty for petty reasons.

G. Moylan

15:48

is there an upper limit to a bounty size?

ACuriousMind

@ThomasMarkov The effect of the -1 rep cost for downvoting is psychological, not game-theoretic

Thomas Markov

@G.Moylan 500. But you can do it multiple times.

G. Moylan

@ThomasMarkov ah gotcha

Thomas Markov

@ACuriousMind Sure, but at some point for most users, that probably just goes away.

ACuriousMind

just like the major effect of being downvoted is psychological - the -2 is really neglegible compared to the +10 from upvotes in terms of reputation

G. Moylan

15:50

German Keyboard Alert

ACuriousMind

yeß, indeed

G. Moylan

hehe

Thomas Markov

It’s like writing Jeff Bezos a $25 parking ticket minus all the hassle of having to deal with a parking ticket.

G. Moylan

It's like Bezos paying for Amazon prime

CEO, entrepreneur.

Akixkisu

born in 1964

G. Moylan

15:53

Jeffrey, Jeffrey Bezos

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 how far are you from the legendary badge? I think you’re probably the next one to get it

Akixkisu

Probably my favourite track.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov 132/150

I have quite a lot of 19x days

Thomas Markov

Those count if you would have hit 200 without penalties.

Medix2

Oh, good to know

Akixkisu

15:57

I'm surprised that Andras doesn't have two Socratic badges.

G. Moylan

what are the possible penalties aside from downvotes?

@Akixkisu Welcome to the Internet has been rattling around inside my head for a while

Akixkisu

@G.Moylan depends on what you mean, there are two buckets.

Medix2

Perhaps deleted posts and bounties, though I don't know how those count

Akixkisu

Daily cap, and exempt.

Thomas Markov

@G.Moylan bounties, downvotes, your own downvotes, maybe voting corrections.

G. Moylan

15:58

ah I see

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