TRPG General Chat

Adeptus

00:10

Looks like the Palestine itch.io bundle is launching next week. 800 items from 700 developers.

trogdor

nice

BESW

@Adeptus Got a link for that info?

Upcoming Kickstarter: Wyrd Science - Issue 2! led by John Power Jr. Wyrd Science - Issue 2! - A magazine about RPGs, wargames, board games & the culture around them...

Kickstarter: FISK BORG by Sprinting Owl Designs and World Champ Game Co. Brutal and accursed fishing set in the somber world of MÖRK BORG ttrpg.

bobble

00:29

I GM'ed a thing! \o/ Ran RFS with two friends to see if I could do it :)

BESW

Wooo! How'd it go?

bobble

Both of them said it was great, and while I'm not sure if we did the skills right they thought their final skills were hilarious

in PSE D&D Chatroom, 13 mins ago, by Sciborg

> [6 XP]
Do Anything (1)
|
Call An Uber (2)
Grab Things (2)
Hold Onto Things (2)
Look Fabulous (2)
Look For Things (2)
Protect Boyfriend (2)
Run Away (2)
Throw Things (2) = Throw Donuts (3)

BESW

nice

bobble

(that was one of them)

It ended with one sitting in a flying car zooming off to the Great Puzzling Conference, while the other flew besides

BESW

Escalation to hilariousness sounds like RFS in a nutshell.

It looks like you were treating your 3-rank skills as subsets of your 2-rank skills?

bobble

00:38

I explained it with skill trees, though I know it isn't technically a skill tree, but I thought it would help get the game moving quickly

BESW

Makes sense.

It's not at all wrong, and it does help get things off the ground fast, but I've found that in subsequent plays it can be very rewarding to lean into the specific wording of the text that a new skill is based on what happened rather than what you were doing.

bobble

I'll probably explain later, or when we start discussing running it again.

BESW

(Since what you were doing is usually part of what happened, making it a skill tree is still within the letter of the rules--not that there would be anything wrong with deviating from the text anyway.)

In my experience a big benefit of the "what happened" angle for new skills, is that it puts a lot of focus on players describing their outcomes.

Instead of "the action succeeds," describing the success becomes a tool for controlling how you advance your character.

bobble

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

AncientSwordRage

@bobble sins like it was successful!

BESW

00:43

(Also, I usually ask the player to describe the outcome rather than doing it as a GM, it's just a personal preference in pretty much all my games. Sometimes I trade off by having the player describe PC failures while the GM describes PC successes, because that gives the players control over how they fail which in turn makes them less afraid of taking risks.)

bobble

My group leans very much towards the GM always describing the outcome, and also towards players declaring when they're going to roll (which works pretty well for RFS, and less well in D&D sometimes)

Last D&D session we had a talk about how everyone else declaring rolls was steamrolling over my character a bit, though, so that will hopefully lessen.

BESW

Ah yes.

Adeptus

@BESW playdiaries.com/palestine-itch-io-bundle-live-next-week

AncientSwordRage

@HotRPGQuestions @KorvinStarmast I see many bounties in your future

BESW

In RFS my attitude is generally "always roll."

If the players ask me a question, I have them roll to find out.

AncientSwordRage

00:48

deep grim voice ....many.....

Adeptus

ugh, Humble Bundle have changed how they display their different tiers. It's less clear and I don't like it.

BESW

@Adeptus Thanks! Let's tidy that up and make it a pin.

"Palestine Itch.io bundle set to go live next week" article by Johnny Cullen on Play Diaries. 800 games and more packaged together in bundle headlined by game from Palestinian developer.

4

bobble

@KorvinStarmast, Raise Hand is also a built-in function of Google Meet. (source: has done this in Meet)

You can also forcemute people, though I'm not sure if you can blanket-mute everyone

Ben

Mutual moot mute meet

TheDragonOfFlame

01:08

Ciao

AncientSwordRage

@TheDragonOfFlame ciao

A. B.

02:27

@Ben D&D isn't the only game that displays the dropping-absurd-things-on-the-enemy glitch. In GURPS there is a fairly cheap spell that summons a magical carriage. On the GURPS forum a while ago, somebody said that a player had struck the idea of summoning a carriage fifty feet above the boss monster's head and squashing the boss monster flat and this was massively OP and what do. The thread ended up very long, and no definite conclusion was reached.

Also:

@HotRPGQuestions 0:32: Q: How to deal with a 'soft' alpha gamer player?
@BESW 0:39: Riverhouse Games wrote a twitter thread hoping that game theory discussions can simplify their use of jargon, for example by using only the 1k most used English words.

Probably not intentional but made me chuckle.

Medix2

02:48

I wrote up a whole question only to realize @ThomasMarkov had already asked it XD

KorvinStarmast

03:22

@AncientSwordRage you are too kind. Sharing experiences at table is one of our core value propositions here.

Powerdork

03:35

What'd I miss?

bobble

drat, you've filled my head with Hamilton

A. B.

03:48

Sorry - if it was me :-D haven't seen Hamilton yet so no idea which message you mean

bobble

WHAT'D I MISS | HAMILTON - Dennis Maciel

►

Bardic Wizard

04:30

Hey, I had an rpg-related idea today while in a spinning/weaving guild meeting (the presentation was going over my head), and I wanted to know if it already existed: an rpg based around physically changing a map to represent changes to the landscape, but using found objects or craft supplies to make the map rather than paper.

Does that exist already, and if so could someone point me to it?

BESW

Hmm I don't know of anything specifically like that.

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: Can the Grave Domain Cleric's "Sentinel at deaths door" cancel the autocrit from hitting an unconscious person?

The Grave Domain Cleric's Sentinel at Death's Door class feature has the following wording: At 6th level, you gain the ability to impede death’s progress. As a reaction when you or an ally that you can see within 30 feet of you suffers a critical hit, you can turn that attack into a normal hit. ...

Bardic Wizard

It was kinda based off the presentation: Robyn Spady was talking about weaving with novelty yarns, and since I am very much not a weaver, I was thinking about her idea of changing the structure of the weave to match the changes in a textured yarn. One of her examples looked like a map of rivers to me, and I was sort of thinking about what would it mean for the world if I changed the map by changing the draft or the picks for the weave

Like would removing a river from the map remove it from the world, or would casting a spell to summon fire into the world mean you would actually burn bits of the map, or something similar

BESW

04:48

I like it!

Bardic Wizard

Basically, the physical map in our reality and the territory in the game’s reality are interconnected and a change to one changes the other, but in a physical way and in two directions rather than only changing the map as a reaction to the game

BESW

Help Pammu & Sin Sale! A bundle with content from Diwata ng Manila and Pammu. Get all our games for only 50$!! Pammu is permanently moving in with Sin, which entails a lot of logistics and costs here and there, so we need some help getting by. There are many perils to tackle, like figuring out a new place to stay, some important appliances, and helping Pam's cat, Gouto, adjust to a new environment.

2

@BardicWizard A friend's hermit crab once got loose on our D&D map, and all the players spontaneously started roleplaying how their PCs were panicking at the sight of the giant crab stalking across the room.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW Hah! Exactly like that! I’m not sure it’d work on its own, but it might, and I kinda like the idea. Maybe a game about mapping the world out… stares into space, considering

BESW

Oooh [rummages] there might be something...

A Mending by Shing Yin Khor. a solo story-building and keepsake game about two friends who have been parted for some time, using sewing, embroidery, and map-marking mechanics. In this game, you sew a path on a cloth map, and build a story using prompt cards as you progress on your journey.

Not published yet but you can see details on the closed Kickstarter page.

BESW

05:09

Remi Garreau wrote a twitter thread about "harm/injury systems and how rarely they feel like interesting engines for drama," with "three games I think do it well."

BESW

06:26

Four more days: The Web Based TTRPGs Are Cool Actually Sale hosted by Dee Pennyway. I want people to know there's more out there than just PDFs and paper, so I'm dropping the price of Beyond the Rift until the end of May. Grab a copy, read it, leave a rating and a comment to let people know that we have other options and those options are good.

A. B.

06:44

screams uncontrollably for a bit

OK done.

Ben

@A.B. Understandable

A. B.

Awww.

Thanks.

Ben

It's a shame you have to find a way to do that without attracting attention these days. Otherwise people call the police and you have to explain, "No, officer everything is fine. I understand they said it sounded like a woman screaming, that was just me... a lot of build up as I hope you might understand. I do apologize for upsetting the neighbours and making you come all the way out. I'll try to keep it down."

A. B.

Hah, I know exactly what you mean and I thought it was just me that thought that way! Sometimes screaming is just necessary to the insides. Online screaming is not as good as real screaming, but it's good.

Unrelatedly, @BESW nice to know it's not just me that thinks the Enchantment college is evil.

Ben

07:01

Catharsis in any way you can :P

Actually, I ran into the use of the word "Somatic/Somatise" in a context outside of D&D recently

Thanks to D&D, I was able to explain the meaning of the word to someone else when they asked if I knew

A. B.

Ha, yes! That's about the only non-technical place you'll see it.

"Psychosomatic" is fairly common (although many people get its meaning wrong). "Somatic" in any other context rarer still.

Ben

@A.B. true... though when you know what "somatic" means, "psychosomatic" seems like a bit of an oxymoron lol

A. B.

How's that? It seems like that, but it does happen.

Anyway, I'll leave and never come back.

kviiri

"oxymoron" doesn't mean something doesn't happen, it is just (apparent or real) self-contradiction

Ben

Oh I fully understand it. But "psycho", being "mental" or "on the inside" and "somatic" being "physical" or "on the outside"

kviiri

07:14

@A.B. Take care

Adeptus

@Ben Physical symptoms being caused by mental conditions... that's a reasonable definition, isn't it?

Ben

Yeah, it makes sense. I'm just going of the breakdown - "inside on the outside"

But anyway. Lol

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@A.B. The player-and-GM stances on mind-related magic seem to depend on differences in unspoken assumptions that are usually, well, unspoken within the scope of the game texts.

kviiri

Oxymorons don't have to be unreasonable or illogical, I think the description is apt

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Assumptions about how the magic works beside what's described, assumptions about the question of free will, assumptions about how mundane equivalents of the same effects work &c.

kviiri

07:20

Though Wikipedia's definition, now that I check it, distinguishes between antonym pairs, eg. pianoforte, as not being oxymorons because they imply the ability to be soft and loud, not a contradictory superposition of soft and loud

A. B.

It's a bit of a standard way of making compound words, especially with Latin and/or Greek ones like "psychosomatic" - mish together two relevant-in-themselves nouns, but exactly how they're connected doesn't matter. :-)

kviiri

The Finnish town of Pori (Björneborg in Swedish) has a Neo-Latin name of Arctopolis that to my understanding has been in use for a fair while

Neo-Latin... not withstanding that arctos and polis are both Greek.

The name literally means "Bear city". The Swedish name likewise means "Bear castle"

A. B.

All Latin names are Greek, except the ones that are Chinese.

(reports of my death have apparently been exaggerated, but have now terrified myself by posting and probably won't reappear for a bit.)

Adeptus

@kviiri wasn't Björneborg a tennis player? :P

Ben

@A.B. yeah. the breakdown of the compound word is the part that creates the impression of an oxymoron. But that's doesn't mean the word as a whole, is.

kviiri

07:34

@Adeptus A coincidence I assure ye ;)

Ben

@A.B. All English words are English. Except for 92% of them which are actually from everywhere else. XD

Adeptus

Ben

Precisely lol

And I'd say that the other 8% are the slang words we came up with cos we can't properly pronounce the words we stole from everyone else

BESW

[grumble] As much as English is a colonial language, I think Nicol's phrasing needs to die. He frames it as an argument against the purity of English, when what we need are arguments against purity tests at all; he frames its diversity as inherently bad--and also as purely appropriative, which erases its history of integration and cross-pollination outside colonial structures.

Adeptus

Thought Police are selling lifetime subscriptions for every game PDF they will ever release twitter.com/__ThoughtPolice/status/1397295743552077838

BESW

07:48

@Adeptus And donating to food banks and housing charities!

Update on itch.io Palestine bundle: the bundle contribution has shifted to this itch thread (similar to how the Bundle for Racial Justice and Equality worked last year) and if you submitted to the Google Form, you'll need to submit again there.

kviiri

08:04

@BESW Yeah. I am all in favor of "desecrating" language, so to say, but I agree framing the natural processes of linguistic flux as somehow unpleasant or unique to English is poor.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@kviiri English does seem to be one of the languages whose linguistic flux is done using methods that are, uh, closer to flame wars than to reforms, when compared to some other languages.

Change itself is, of course, not unique. Nor is borrowing.

kviiri

I'd especially like to see a world where people don't get mocked for speaking their native language, or local second languages, in their local dialects

4

(looking at eg. Indian English, though it's not likely to be the only example at all.)

I mean, I could name a few more at least off the top of my head but not instantly any of the same scale

SmokeDetector

08:42

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad ip for hostname in answer, blacklisted website in answer, potentially bad asn for hostname in answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer, potentially problematic ns configuration in answer (193): How can I tell my players that necromancers are not bad guys? by ravi on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

AncientSwordRage

09:27

@KorvinStarmast but this is a particular bugbear of mine

Thomas Markov

@SmokeDetector this appears not to have worked at notifying me.

V2Blast

@ThomasMarkov Why would that SmokeDetector message have notified you? 🤔

Thomas Markov

@V2Blast spevacus came yesterday and helped me set it up to notify me. But it didn’t work apparently.

A. B.

10:23

How funny, I was just reading about Indian English and its inexplicable "only" the other day, I'd never heard of that before then. It turned up on English Language Learners SE.

Weird how these coincidences happen. (As both an English person and a Northern English person (which, as any Northerner can tell you, is important :-) ), I approve heartily).

Something that's been puzzling me, though, speaking of different dialects: is "off of" now considered to be grammatically right in American English, or just wrong but widespread? I see it even in quite professional contexts.

Can't make my mind up just from observation :-D

BESW

My sense of English variations tends to be a bit scattershot, as I'm surrounded by several different Pacific and Asian variants, while also exposed to a lot of American variants both in person and through media, and several other versions (including/especially formal and/or outdated British variants) through text.

Given half the chance I'll use the Filipino "already" and the CHamoru "make/let" in the same sentence.

kviiri

11:01

Out of curiosity I Googled what are the most common mistakes (or more generally idiosyncrasies) Finnish speakers have in their English, the first list I found lists "pronouncing the 'l' in salmon" as its second entry and this amuses me

Littoral fish folk biz

BESW

Super Blood Moon Eclipse happening! @trogdor check it out, the full eclipse is in five to fifteen minutes.

trogdor

ooh

BESW

The moon's already almost totally reddened.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I have to stop myself from saying fosha (Sylheti Bangla) rather than money

18

Q: Indian English use of "only"

I am from Bangalore and people here tend use the word only to emphasise something in a sentence. For example: We are getting that only printed. What is the proper way to put it?

grammaticality word-usage adverbs indian-english adverb-position

I'm curious what those Filipino and CHamoru words are though, in a sentence

trogdor

11:30

well I went out with my father to watch it

we have just a huge honking cloud in the way now

it's far too big to dissipate or move out of the way in time to see any more

but it was nice anyway

BESW

@AncientSwordRage "Already" is used in place of na, a Tagalog time-positioning 'particle' (small words that modify the words around them to add extra meaning). So already gets added to English phrases relating to now-ness that don't exactly need it but na would be used if it were said in Tagalog to emphasize the nearness of the time being talked about. In a phrase like "You should have it tomorrow already," for example, the "already" intensifies the nearness of tomorrow to now: you will have it soon.

AncientSwordRage

@trogdor I imagined you both blowing towards the sky to shift it

would make a good scene in a kids book

@BESW thats cool

BESW

And in CHamoru English, the words make and let are sometimes inverted for reasons I don't totally understand but it's quite idiomatic in practice. So "He won't make me play video games with him," or "I don't want to go to the store but my nana let me."

AncientSwordRage

they're probably cognates in CHamoru

trogdor

11:46

@AncientSwordRage yeah no we just walked back into the house :P

AncientSwordRage

@trogdor probably wiser :p

trogdor

We came back out again only for an even bigger cloud to cover it

BESW

The angle on the clouds from this part of the island was a bit better, we got to see it unobstructed between gaps in the clouds several times.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW Briefly looking online, it looks like the closest an online dictionary has for make and let is the word for Give

BESW

That may be it, though the dictionaries are... well, the map is not the territory and that's especially true for endangered languages.

AncientSwordRage

11:55

@BESW fully agreed, it's why I specified online dictionary rather than try to imply it was something more authoritative

BESW

Oh, the online dictionary is probably as comprehensive and authoritative as any other.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW but really the language users are the final authority

BESW

Heh. Tell that to the founders of i Kumisión i Fino' CHamoru yan i Fina'nå'guen.

Spevacus

@ThomasMarkov Hmm. Give me a second and I'll see if I can't get that sorted for you.

Thomas Markov

@Spevacus Thanks mate

Spevacus

12:11

@ThomasMarkov It seems I'm mistaken. When commands aren't accepted from a room (which I think is how this one is configured) it will not allow you to use notify in that room. Let's try using that command in Charcoal HQ this time around instead.

!!/test example.com

Yeah, that'll do it. This room isn't configured to accept commands.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW give me their number and I will :p

kviiri

My teas arrived!

\o/

Thomas Markov

@Spevacus Got the boop from smokey, looks like its worked this time

Spevacus

12:27

Should be good to go then. Enjoy! Ping me once again if it doesn't work, but I'm pretty confident we're good now.

Thomas Markov

@Spevacus You got it, thanks for your help

Spevacus

No problem :)

NautArch

13:43

o/

Thomas Markov

@NautArch hola

delete @NautArch

go team

NautArch

I finally made my save against norovirus.

kviiri

Congrats!

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov I disagree with deleting NautArch

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I suggested that before I knew he was feeling better. The way he talked about his condition to me, deletion seemed the only option.

NautArch

13:49

It was a close call.

I did lose quite a bit of weight, though!

doppelgreener

Understandable

Oh dear

Thomas Markov

Also that post we deleted was just a selfie.

doppelgreener

Oh yes good move

Thomas Markov

But not technically spam.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov A photo of a newspaper or other print product.

Thomas Markov

13:56

@Trish Nah, just a selife of some person's face.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov I just looked at it (via the revision history), there is a letter on the right edge and a page-frame on the left.

but either way, NotAnAnswer

@NautArch Good riddence of the winter vomiting bug

NautArch

The first night was one of the worst illness periods i've ever had.

Trish

@NautArch similar to the first night after Moderna

NautArch

@Trish I dunno. This was much worse than after my second pfizer.

Non-stop vomiting, sweat pouring out of me, and then severe chills and diarrhea.

Trish

@NautArch Pfizer is allegedly not as tough as moderna on the 2nd... but barfing... ok, you won that price. I hate the smell of stomach acid.

NautArch

14:07

With my migraines, I've vomited a lot in my life. Nothing was like this. Do not recommend.

Trish

14:19

@NautArch Norovirus - 1 out of 5 stars: Terrible service. Hounded me non-stop and played with the climate controls.

bobble

@Trish that 1/5 or -1/5?

Trish

@bobble your choice :P

NautArch

15:38

@KorvinStarmast I dont get the downvote on your 'soft' alpha gamer answer. You literally have the only answer that's supported.

RevanantBacon

@NautArch I thought it was a good answer

NautArch

@RevanantBacon It's got two things going for it; It's a great answer, and it's well supported.

The only reason I can see for a downvote is either anti-korvin or just don't agree with their experience.

But it seriously is the only answer with actual support.

RevanantBacon

I certainly believe that it's quality advice, and anecdotal evidence of "this is what I've tried and here's how it worked" is the only kind of support you can give an answer to that kind of question.

NautArch

Yep, and they're the only one has done it :(

Axoren

17:08

Enemies Abound hard counters Sharpshooter Archer builds

I have never seen a spellcaster have this spell on their bestiary card, but it is probably THE way to limit a Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert from just wiping an entire encounter before the party gets to do anything.

However, in that light, it's TOO strong

And can lead to a TPK fairly quickly if the archer doesn't realize in time.

Also, putting it on a player Healer can result in some heartbreaking moments when Healing Word is necessary to save a party member from dying but they now have a chance of using it on upwards of 5 other targets instead.

NautArch

@Axoren ha! Was this used against you or you against the party?

Axoren

No, I just discovered its potential while planning spells for my Sorcerer Tank Grappler

I was thinking "Wow this is nearly useless on Melee enemies."

Immediately thought of archers.

I might actually use this spell in an encounter I'm planning for a future game.

There's a sect of Illusionists and Enchanters that the players can go up against.

And having just one of the casters in that encounter throw this on someone may make for an interesting encounter.

It would definitely make the party consider bringing a diverse kit going forward, which is something 5e has a REALLY tough time doing.

looking at you, Eldritch Blast spam Warlocks

Now, if a Warlock is hit with Enemies Abound, they might hit 4 of their party members instead of machine gunning an enemy.

NautArch

@Axoren Until they save

RevanantBacon

Enemies Abound is good vs spellcasters as well. Every targeted spell they cast has a chance to hit allies.

Axoren

I mean, yeah. But these characters are also the ones most likely to dump Int.

RevanantBacon

17:23

@Axoren Lets face it, anyone that's not a Wizard is likely to dump Int

Axoren

@RevanantBacon Was meant for NautArch.

But it's great against Clerics

NautArch

Just keep those pesky paladins with their aura away :P

Axoren

Easiest way to keep those Paladin's away is to make them skewer their party members and suffer trauma for the next 3 sessions.

It's only a shame that they can wait until they discover their target to decide to Smite.

NautArch

@Axoren Divine smite the warlock.

Axoren

Or wait...

Do they actually not know because of the spell?

NautArch

17:26

They 'shouldn't'

but that starts to get squirrely

Axoren

Oh my GOOOOOD

DM rolls the randomness privately. They decide whether or not they think they hit an enemy. While resolving damage, reveal target choice.

NautArch

ooooh, that could be fun.

Axoren

I think it's fine to leave the meta aspect of them still seeing who's minis are where on the battle mat.

It's just so impossible to keep that from the players

NautArch

Taking agency can be not-fun, but it's all about the table.

Axoren

I mean, dropping someone to 0 takes away agency. Enemies Abound restricts actions, but they can make different choices to avoid impacting the party negatively.

An Archer can pull out a finesse weapon. A Cleric can use Cure Wounds instead of Healing Word. A Warlock can summon something that isn't affected by the spell to fight for them.

That's why I like it better on villains, because it just makes the party play more interestingly without shutting them down.

Thomas Markov

17:52

@Axoren For me, I usually feel like dropping to 0 is my fault, so it doesnt feel like an agency issue.

Axoren

@ThomasMarkov I agree. It's not an issue, but I definitely don't have agency until someone helps me do something about it.

Thomas Markov

A lot of my own decisions went into getting knocked out, so I don't feel like my agency is violated. When I get downed by a save or suck spell, it feels like 0% my fault, which often feels less fun than almost dying.

kviiri

18:12

Earlier editions of Savage Worlds had that rather amusing feature where, if your character got Shaken (which generally happens on getting hit if the damage roll is not very minor) one had to either score a raise on their Spirit roll to act on their turn or score a normal hit (and not get Shaken again!) to act on their next turn. I appreciate the fact this was patched, it was by far my least favorite mechanic of the game.

(Especially since a player in our group who was prone to distractions in the first place had dumped their Spirit stat...)

It caused us a lot of pain before we found about the patch. I still don't like the new version (which is the same as before, except a normal hit is enough to act on one's turn when shaken) but it's nowhere near as bad.

There's also a circumvention in that the players can expend their Bennies — limited "do awesome stuff points" — to instantly recover from Shaken, but we never had a good touch for using those, some encounters disallowed them due to enemies being unlucky to be around, and there was also another (again, patched out since?) feature that rewards not using Bennies with XP.

Axoren

18:57

I think there's still a way to play off hitting a party with something like Enemies Abound way better than something like Hold Person. Enemies Abound presents a new type of encounter that makes the players have to make different choices, rather than just shutting them down. Things like an enemy caster using Windwall or hiding behind Total Cover already stops archers from using their ranged attacks, so they would naturally make decisions like this to circumvent such a similar challenge.

However, the thing about Enemies Abound that makes me so much more interested is that the player has a chance of doing exactly what they wanted to do despite failing a save.

It moreso applies pressure than a crush.

This is as opposed to things like Crown of Madness which force a player to attack an ally whenever the caster wants.

The choice is still in the player's hands as to what they do

Glazius

@kviiri Are you thinking of 7th Sea? Or maybe I have an interstitial version that patches benny XP but not Shaken.

kviiri

@Glazius Naw, this was SW.

I think the Shaken patch was first? It was published as Errata to the edition we used by what I recall

While the Benny XP, to my limited knowledge, was removed in a later edition altogether

RevanantBacon

19:29

Good grief, that homebrew "tankkiller" question though... yikes

Axoren

Just add more mobs. Add stronger mobs.

Also, most players build tanks wrong in 5e. If the Barbarians are too hard to hit/hurt, hit/hurt everything else first. Enemies don't have to attack the beefiest boi.

This is the primary flaw with retaliation builds (Armor of Agathys and Hellish Rebuke builds). Cool, it hurts when I hit you. So why should I hit you?

Eventually, things simplify and the tanks can be focused, overpowering their damage income bandwidth.

A true tank in 5e has to direct attacks and damage towards itself and away from allies. You can't just be a beefy boi.

NautArch

The tank can only really tank against attacks against it. Give that tank some saving throws. That'll learn him.

Axoren

Calm Emotions on the Barbarian. Then hit him a bunch before his next turn.

Gust the Paladin away from his allies. Throw Fireball.

Get the Mindflayers involved and have a couple of intellect devourers walking around.

Wizard tank? Grapple.

What other kind of self-mitigators are there?

Rogues? Multi-attacks.

Also, biggest weakness of Dwarf Tanks is that they lose to basic Kiting. I ran a hag fight where they took turns casting lightning bolt, going invisible, and casting hold person on the closest people. Really pushed a lot of people to their limit, but they beat it. A Dwarf Tank would be spending a lot of rounds Dashing in such an encounter.

If your players build for it, give them smarter encounters. Don't make a creature designed to kill them specifically.

RevanantBacon

19:54

This really highlights how that question is definitely an XY question. "My players are tanking really effectively, is this monster I designed specifically o beat the tanks balanced?" should be "My players are tanking really effectively, how do I get past the tanks to hit the squishies?"

Because holy cow is that thing not balanced

MikeQ

Just go around.

Axoren

^

Literally ignore the tanks. If everyone's a tank, double encounter size because they're practically asking for it.

If they don't want to risk being in danger, 5e is not the system to be playing.

Truesight 200 ft. also gave me some weird vibes.

MikeQ

Maybe it's an indirect way of killing the tank PC by encouraging the player to leave.

Axoren

One of our players is planning a post-campaign one-shot to round out his character's final arc, and he was wondering how to hide enemies from a Planetar with Truesight 120 ft. He was trying to find crazy magic items, spells, obscurement. I told him "Just hide the enemies in a cake, I won't be able to tell."

And then I gave him serious advice like trap doors, the rafters in the ceiling, and behind walls.

Upper_Case

The whole modern idea of a tank build is (to my eye) a holdover from MMOs where things like battlefield control and area denial weren't really options

Building a high HP, high AC character and then assuming you're done is trying to play the wrong type of game

MikeQ

19:59

Not necessarily. Some players enjoy that.

Axoren

In 5e, it's really hard to do those things without becoming better at being something completely different (a controller instead of a tank)

So far, the only Hard Tanking ability I'm aware of is grappling.

You can lock down 2 targets and force them to attack you instead of your party members.

Upper_Case

@Axoren I don't think that's true. It's more about the tank's stats not being enough to create a tank situation all the time. If you're on an open plain with no obstacles and no relevant support, tanking is irrelevant

If you have a situation where you can tank, like a corridor with a chokepoint, then the tank's stats come to the fore and you can get the MMO tank experience (and be really effective with it too)

MikeQ

There are some "taunt" like abilities. Compelled Duel, etc.

Carcer

the Sentinel feat is also a big one

get up close to something, makes it hard for it to get away from you

Upper_Case

For sure, and those will support that playstyle just fine. My point is that "tanking", in the way people usually use the term, is more a function of encounter design and explicitly drawing fire than just saying "I have the stats of a tank, so I should absorb most attacks)

Axoren

20:02

@Upper_Case If you have a 1-wide corridor, sure. But the big problem is that at any point, once the Tank has stopped 1 enemy, the rest of the enemies can simply walk past unimpeded.

Frighten controllers are better at handling corridors than tanks because they can affect multiple targets with a hardlined "Can't get closer"

Upper_Case

@Axoren That's exactly my point

Axoren

I see, so this is a semantic issue then. You wouldn't call someone who stops 1 enemy a Tank, but you'd call someone who achieves the Tank's Goals a Tank?

Upper_Case

A tanking strategy shouldn't be (only) about having a build that's able to take a hit, it's about locking down enemies in such a way that their attacks will be directed to you rather than elsewhere

RevanantBacon

MMO tanks work because they can force the AI to target them by design, or by exploiting targeting AI. If you're meant to be a tank, you have abilities to draw enemy aggro to you instead of an ally. In other situations, enemies will target the closest character, allowing you to tank by positioning. Neither of those tactics are viable in 5e since abilities that force an enemy to target you are fairly rare, and the enemies are being controlled by a live human, so exploiting AI simply isn't possible

Upper_Case

The ideas are conflated only due to a historical period where you could aggro a bunch of enemies and then survive while allies blast them into oblivion

Axoren

20:05

I was allowing myself to call people attempting to be a Tank a Tank.

That's another thing. People sort of assume an Aggro system in 5e, from what I've seen.

Upper_Case

I'm sure there's scope for that, but I wouldn't call a single-classed Wizard who sometimes steals things a Thief (with the capital T)

RevanantBacon

Plus, in an MMO, a "tank" will have 2-3x (or even more) the HP of a "non-tank"

Axoren

A lot of players will try to get enemies to attack them by insulting them or trying to pull aggro, but a sufficiently intelligent enemy will ignore them and simply make the right tactical choice

Upper_Case

How strategically do you play/have you seen your players play out combats in 5e? Mine usually have pretty poor tactics, even when encounters require better

Axoren

@RevanantBacon That's a very specific consideration made by most game developers to make it more obvious to the player that the character is designed to withstand higher damage bandwidth.

In many cases, the Tank doesn't need to have more than the same amount of HP than non-Tanks, but making the HP larger offers a better signal than having them have hidden resistance numbers.

RevanantBacon

20:08

@Upper_Case I see most groups develop 2 or sometimes 3 regular tactics that they employ

Axoren

I often play in a fairly serious group side-by-side with playing in another more light-hearted group. We always have a couple of parallel games going in my circles.

In one serious group, we have planned out a 5-stage assault on city which we initiated with a Scroll of the Comet to breach the castle wall, and various teleportation magicks to bypass a city-wide barrier once they began to raise it.

Upper_Case

@RevanantBacon I'd kill for that! My groups usually fight like four parties of one character each rather than one party of four. It's fine, but even modest enemy tactics would be enough to wipe them out. It probably feels more flexible to them in fights, though

Axoren

In other other group, we just decided to dethrone a tribe of werewolves and make them join us because we could and then we flew off in an airship while playing Fortunate Son.

RevanantBacon

@Upper_Case My solution would be have the enemies use obvious and easily replicable tactics to show how it's done

Axoren

Tactics were "Let Fluffy (our ship captain) 1v1 the tribe leader while we just shout cheers at him."

In the past, I played a lot of Pathfinder and played it with various groups. I was generally the reason why people survived, even if I didn't. Tactical decisions were lacking and players always put themselves in situations that should have killed them.

But often, DMs would hold back and implement their own aggro system to avoid TPKing the party.

But often, this meant that the Proud and Hotheaded Red Dragon that torched five villages would have saintly patience as our party walked into his lair for an audience with him.

And then proceeded to ridicule the size of his member

In that case, the tactic was "Form a 2x3 box in front of the dragon (within breath range) and start combat."

Upper_Case

20:15

@RevanantBacon Hasn't worked, at least so far. There isn't much discussion of synergies between PC abilities, and so they don't develop tactics in advance, and then in combat there is rarely time to do the planning and setup that are necessary. Only the druid PC does much in that vein, and even then...

But it's OK. Not everyone wants the original X-COM on hard mode experience

Carcer

s/hard/any difficulty/

Axoren

That would truly be an awful experience. That ends up being how the Pandemic Board Game is for me and my friends when we play it. It stops being about players taking their turns to work together and more like turns being decided democratically by the group.

You want players to have individual tactical goals that they can achieve however they want that lead to synergies without restricting other player's turns.

Like, if you know the Bard is going to cast Cloud of Daggers? Consider tactical objectives that lock enemies in place.

If the Sorcerer is going to cast Wall of Fire? Consider tactical objectives that push enemies through it if they breach it.

RevanantBacon

5e is a tactical game, heck, every edition of D&D and its derivatives are tactical games. If you're not playing tactically, you just aren't going to be as efficient as someone who is

Axoren

Encounters that require you to flank an enemy by Turn 2 or lose is a bit too much.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I am pretty sure that I have a stalker, and have had for a while.

KorvinStarmast

20:39

@RevanantBacon Yes, but I will caveat your observation; the team who isn't playing tactical isn't going to be as effective as one that is. I have discovered that if I play with a tactical mindset and I have four players who are not, I can do as much harm as good.

RevanantBacon

@KorvinStarmast Sounds like you need to adapt your tactics. Alternatively, "I didn't ask how big the room was, I said 'I cast Fireball'"

NautArch

Is this opinion based or am I being too critical?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch checking

RevanantBacon

@NautArch No, that's objectively answerable

KorvinStarmast

@RevanantBacon I don't think you grasped my point, it's a table style issue ... 😎

RevanantBacon

20:42

You're probably looking at it and thinking that it's really asking "Should Arcane Lock protect manacles more than they already do?", but that's not really the question

NautArch

@RevanantBacon how? The question is literally asking how should I do this? How is that not canvassing for ideas?

@RevanantBacon nope they want to know by how much. But I don't think it does, and it definitely doesn't say by how much.

So the only possible answer is if someone has seen a system in use doing that, right?

RevanantBacon

@KorvinStarmast The Fireball bit was a joke, but the adapting your tactics bit wasn't. If your table doesn't play in a manner that allows your normal tactics to be effective without also being detrimental in some other fashion, then you just need to try a different set of tactics

KorvinStarmast

@RevanantBacon And you are way out of line telling me that I need to adapt my tactics if you aren't at the table. (I am aware that the fireball bit is a joke, but in another group we have a wizard who basically lives that joke ....)

RevanantBacon

@NautArch And the objective answer to "How much does Arcane Lock protect the manacles?" is "By the exact amount it says on the spell: they make them harder to pick and force with a Str check, and that's it"

@KorvinStarmast I'm out of line for pointing out that if your tactics aren't working that you need to change them? Think about that for a minute

KorvinStarmast

@RevanantBacon Yeah, you are out of line. You make a whole mess of assumptions based on a brief remark. Maybe wind your neck in.

RevanantBacon

20:47

@KorvinStarmast You said "I have discovered that if I play with a tactical mindset and I have four players who are not, I can do as much harm as good."

Which is as much as dierctly saying "If I play with a particular tactic and the other players don;t play to strengthen that tactic, it usually ends up not working"

To which I respond "Try a different tactic"

It's not rocket science, and it's not a group dynamic

NautArch

@RevanantBacon you

Are right!

What about damage though? Arcane lock has no effect, yeah?

RevanantBacon

Exactly

No effect

NautArch

Put an up answer, I'll unring that closure bell.

But yeah, that's right. Nepene is way off base.

Nevermind @RevanantBacon

They know it may not actually affect damage, but they want a system for it does. Opinion-based.

Axoren

This is why I always cast Stoneskin on my prisoners' manacles.

RevanantBacon

@Axoren Can you do that? I thought it could only be cast on creatures

Axoren

20:53

First, I Animate them, giving them an HP.

I'm being facetious, as this would allow me to transport a Prisoner for all of 1 minute.

However, there probably could be an argument that the strength check necessary to deal damage to them is more difficult because of how they're bound.

If they're bound in front, of course they can just thwack them on something hard. If they're bound in back, it would be very difficult to do this and it would be harder to simply pull your arms apart to break them.

In the same vein, it's easy to deal damage to a straight jacket, but no one in one can just bust out.

KorvinStarmast

@RevanantBacon I think you noted previously that you have a tough time with people skills. It's happening again. Drop it.

RevanantBacon

21:09

@KorvinStarmast I don't believe that I've noted that previously, I think you're thinking of someone else.

Either way, just like, try not getting upset when someone points out something obvious to you next time.

Axoren

Where's Thomas and his enchantment spells?

Someone_Evil

I'll suggest dropping it either way. The two of you aren't conversing well atm

@Axoren Why not tiny servant?

Axoren

@Someone_Evil Easier to hit and kill than regular manacles, it looks like.

Someone_Evil

But you get 8h hours and cute little legs!

Axoren

But then you've given your prisoner a cute little hostage.

Upper_Case

21:29

That sounds like a fun homebrew creature, especially for someplace like Mechanus

The manacle-pede

Axoren

My group is so far out-of-character at the moment, we're discussing luxury bidets.

Upper_Case

Bidets alone, or are Washlets on the table?

Axoren

Toilet seat bidets.

Upper_Case

Mmm, Toto makes those too but they just aren't as impressive. I really, really want a/3 Washlet(s)

Axoren

water filtration, heated seats, mp3 player, temperature control, adjustable angle

ball sauna

I think we're using our break without realizing it, lol.

Just sitting here listening to EVERYONE be so well-informed on the topic while we should be long-resting and doing downtime.

I was not prepared.

Upper_Case

21:36

If you had a high-end bidet, you'd probably have more time to dedicate to things like this

2

BESW

22:13

"Mörk Borg supplement Fisk Borg introduces fishing mechanics to the doom metal RPG" article by Chase Carter for Dicebreaker. Bait your hook with blood and misery

Physical + PDF for sale: GUN&SLINGER by Nevyn Holmes. An RPG geared for short, episodic sessions about a weapon and a wanderer. A Maestro and two players (Gun and Slinger) set out into a dead planet mutated by a god's forgotten child and hunt strange bounties, investigate the world and unlock hidden powers.

"New Agon supplement Realms of Khaos is less The Odyssey and more Thor: Ragnarok" article by Chase Carter for Dicebreaker. Adventure beyond the Vault of Heaven.

KorvinStarmast

Table style issue ... learn to read and comprehend. Both of them.

BESW

TheSheDM tweeted "gossip rags are a great source to pull #dnd campaign ideas from," with an example.

Trish

current cellar project: a Gunbai.

BESW

burst0fhope wrote a twitter thread about the "fine line btwn representation & tokenism" in gaming streams.

The Freeplay Independent Games Festival will have several RPGSEA designers in talks and panels.

Kozmik Objects & Entities by Highland Paranormal Society. A collection of strange things and places in deep space

Hot RPG Questions

22:33

3

Q: Is the Bardic College of Spirits "Tale of the Renowned Duelist" melee spell attack limited by your reach?

The Bardic College of Spirits, published in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, has a feature called "Tales from Beyond": You reach out to spirits who tell their tales through you. While you are holding your Spiritual Focus, you can use a bonus action to expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration a...

dnd-5e class-feature bard reach

Transcript for