Though, without getting into a deep & meaningful about the bible, I am of two sides about Judas' "position" in the whole thing

@BESW [adds to playlist]

Lol

[grin] Probably not the best song on that album (that'd be "And Then There Was Silence," obviously) but it's not like there are BAD songs on A Night at the Opera either. That album was a staple of my college-era soundtrack.

Basically my position is that Judas was basically pre-destined to cause this whole event, but then that implies that someone higher made that happen. Judas is only human, yeah he might have given in to his baser desires, but at the same time, that may have just been what was needed in order for it all to happen.

Thus pinning him as the "bad guy" is a little unfair.

@Ben even Jesus Christ Superstar leans this way

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There's a lot of doctrinal debate over the role and culpability of Judas Iscariot, and it gets into the particular sect's understanding of free will and the plan of God.

Just figured that "challenging beliefs" might not be topic of conversation that everyone would enjoy being privy too lol

@BESW Yeah. those two last parts are the main paradox in the argument, the way I see it

Judas' Death lyrics from JCSS

I personally think that "if God knew it was going to happen then God made it happen" is a cop-out. God can know what we're going to choose without forcing the choice.

@BESW that's my view as well

Although I don't think Islam details Judas in anyway that I'm aware of...

Fair argument. It was Jesus's skill to see the true nature of a person, so that could be why he was seemingly "determined" for it to happen.

Skill? Ability? God given gift? Lol

I'm also of the opinion that God uses what we give Him to achieve His plans, but our free will determines the specifics of the journey and the details of the outcome. All of us can make choices that make humanity's path easier, but none of us is the Only Person Who Can Make God's Plan Happen At All. If Judas hadn't betrayed Christ, the path to Christ's redemptive sacrifice would've looked different but wouldn't have been prevented entirely.

That comes across as very "cogs in the mechanism"

Not really. Cogs don't get to choose their role in the machine.

Well, no. The analogy is too defined.

So the destination is predetermined, but the route is free choice?

I guess you could say that the machine is still being built, and it doesn't matter which cog is used, they'll all fit. God is just waiting for the right one af the right time.

Roughly. The destination is determined in broad strokes, but the specifics of the journey AND the specifics of how the destination is implemented, are ours.

I feel like Judas's betrayal gains more dimensionality when it's held alongside the Denial of Peter.

Interesting train of thought: some say that if Jesus wasn't been martyred, the plan wouldn't have worked. But that then doesn't mean it would have either...

Yeah, it's... interesting... to see how we look at history (even outside religious events) as seeming inevitable after it's happened.

And you might say it kinda didn't. If anything you might argue that the lesson was not about "right or wrong", but about the choices you make

Specifically "why" rather than "what"

If Peter hadn't repented after denying Christ, he wouldn't have been one of the Pentecostal Apostles and the shape of Christianity --and especially the shape of the Catholic Church-- would be dramatically different, and that would in turn have influenced all European and colonial history.

Details of Peter was the 3 crows of the rooster, right? (Its been a while XD)

Denial*

Aye, yes.

And Peter was the Rock on which Christ founded His church.

If the rock of the church had denied Christ, we can faintly imagine a dramatically different evolution of the faith's relationship to centralized authority.

Was Judas given the chance to repent, or was he immediately condemend?

(Or self-condemned)?

Judas conspired with Christ's enemies, (probably) received payment, and then followed through on the conspiracy. The details are... sketchy, beyond that. Matthew says Judas repented, Acts does not.

@AncientSwordRage Some Islamic sects have vastly divergent accounts of Judas and the Crucifixion, compared to the account broadly accepted in Christian sects.

One of them is that Christ was assumed bodily into heaven prior to the Crucifixion, and that Judas took his place on the cross.

What does the Book of Judas say?

These are, so far as I know, not supported by Qu'uranic texts or any Traditions that are widely accepted as authentic.

@Ben That Judas's betrayal was done out of obedience to explicit instructions of Christ.

So, circling back to the "You told me I would so I did, now everyone, including God and Jesus hates me, just because I obeyed"

(Although a second translation of the same text reads it as saying Judas was a Literal Demon.)

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the Gospel of Judas, honestly. It's a bit suspect, what with the whole "Christ lied to all the other apostles and only told Judas the REAL meaning of His message."

"let he who is free of sin, cast the first stone"

@Ben I think it might be important to drill down to specifics on the nature of Judas's condemnation. There's... not a lot of explicit commentary about it in the canonical texts.

For sure.

I mean, even then, the Gospels are not exactly literal either. That's why there's 4 of them (maybe more, unfinished/not as complete), each learned and took the same lesson through a different perspective.

The gospels indicate that Judas was enacting God's plan, and that Christ could have stopped him if He'd wanted to (what with being, you know, the Son of God and all; I think it's an important doctrinal note that Christ could have stopped His crucifixion at any time; the voluntary nature of the sacrifice gives it power). They also say "woe is upon him", and he would "have been better unborn," but honestly that could just be describing how awful he felt about it afterward?

@BESW A pastor friend of mine taught a lesson on this, and focused on what they do after the fact: Peter goes back to the disciples and tries to reconcile with them, but Judas can't do it. He just walks away. (And in that sense does condemn himself.)

@MarkWells I think that's a really good point, just in general: bad deeds do not condemn us so much as how we take responsibility for them.

There's a number of parallels in the early history of the Baha'i Faith.

@MarkWells Denial vs involved in the plan to kill are a bit different, and each of us deal with different things in different ways.

@BESW exactly

And the gospels are, as Ben says, inconsistent about how Judas tried (or failed) to take responsibility.

(Pastor friend works mostly in addiction recovery, and willingness to face up to the people you've hurt is a pretty major theme of his teaching.)

I'm of the opinion that close line-for-line reading of the Biblical texts is a lot less useful, in terms of spiritual insight, than studying the broader strokes of the principles and examples they set for us. The words are human, but the shape they make is divinely guided.

I see in Judas's story that God can shape even evil acts to good ends, but that this doesn't make evil acts good.

@BESW Yeah, it's not like you don't know what you're doing.

Comparing Judas to Peter I see that responsibility and reconciliation are important, and that they need to be focused on those harmed (Peter went to the other disciples, Judas tried to give back the money).

And I also see, in both Peter and Judas, that God won't stop us from making bad decisions, that's on us.

@MarkWells It's always good to hear of people that aim to better other people's lives. I do it where I can, but I can honestly say I personally am never devoted to the cause, more the person.

But, you know. Christ knew that both Peter and Judas would betray Him, and He welcomed them to His inner circle anyway, traveled with them and broke bread with them and taught them His message. I don't think that was any less genuine for knowing that they would have moments of weakness.

I think maybe there were gaps in my religious tutelage, since my brain keeps snapping back to "God controls all, we are all just his playthings", but then I think, "no, God was angry that Adam and Eve didn't do the one thing he asked". I.e. free will was always on the table

Heh. That's a supposed contradiction which many religious scholars from many different backgrounds have struggled with for a very very long time.

I mostly settle on "I'm not gonna understand this but I don't have to." That's faith, isn't it? God is unknowable in His essence and the spiritual nature of reality is beyond the understanding of physical perspectives. Some stuff is just gonna blow our brains out if we actually understood it.

May I share a passage from the Baha'i holy texts that I find relevant to this, when I contemplate it?

@Ben I'm not religious, I just try to follow the Golden Rule - in the words of Bill & Ted, "be excellent to one another". (note try - I don't always succeed)

@BESW For sure lol. I personally see it more as a book of morals "Do the right thing", less so about "faith in God" and all the extra bits. I see no issue with either approach though

@Ben The implications of the Adam and Eve story are huge and defy simple interpretation.

@BESW I'm open to it :)

@Adeptus That's the least we can do :)

@MarkWells Very much so

@MarkWells one of the ones I like are "how would you recognize Adam and Eve when you arrive in heaven?" Some people answer with things like crowns or significant wear, or potentially lack thereof; but the "intended" answer to the riddle is "no belly buttons" haha

@MarkWells My ability to understand the story, again, is boiling it down to very basic principles. Setting aside all the trappings and contradictory details that such an ancient story has accrued, it's the story of the first humans to understand that there are Right Things To Do and Wrong Things To Do, and that God's message will guide us in figuring out the difference between them.

@BESW I see what you mean. It kinda comes across as a chicken and the egg conundrum, in a literal sense... but it doesn't work like that.

This is the foundation on which all subsequent Prophets and Messengers are building.

@BESW As my boys put it "bad makes people sad"

Indeed.

On a sidenote: had a :proud dad moment" last night. The boys have had issues with waking up in the middle of the night, and getting up to mischief. So we decided to implement the rule of "bedtime doesn't necessarily mean sleep time"

BTW, I think some of y'all would find this interesting/useful. I certainly did:

Last night, the youngest had not only entertained himself until he fell asleep, but also decided that he was too tired to continue to entertain himself, and packed up before passing out

Grats!

I was very poroud

@BESW Will definitely give that a look

At any rate, to walk this alllll the way back to the beginning, Dracula 2000 doesn't care at all about theological soundness.

What's the one by Takei? The sharehouse of vampires?

"What are we? Werewolves not swearwolves"

You mean the 2014 film What We Do in the Shadows by Taika Waititi, I think.

@BESW That's the one. Whoops

Ohh myyyy...

"Who Actually Gets to “Escape” Into Fandom?" by Stitch for Teen Vogue.

@BESW that's a twist I didn't expect