TRPG General Chat

HellSaint

18:00

@Medix2 I have included the fact that the original question does not even include the full name of the book.

Medix2

@HellSaint I'm actually wondering what the "and many more" goes to... I'm looking for more XD

HellSaint

So, basically, someone guessed the system and the book, and then edited both into the question. Then @AncientSwordRage read the name of the book there and thought "oh but this is a 5e book", but even that wasn't clear before someone guessed stuff

30

Q: Is '5e' a clear enough statement of game system by a question asker?

As a community we have a long established policy of not guessing game systems. In cases where the game system is unclear we require question askers to clarify, before answering their questions. This is a policy that I support, and is more generally well supported among longer-term site users. Ho...

10

Q: What to do when encountering a non-system tag that describes a system?

This discussion is inspired by Magus Spell Scars. The question doesn't clearly state which system it uses in the text, which is normally a case of Don't guess the system. But the author tagged the question with magus, whose tag wiki excerpt reads: Pathfinder class that blends martial prowess...

discussion tags game-systems

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint fixed the book issue.

Well unfixed?

Reverted.

Medix2

@HellSaint That one doesn't exactly apply... it (as far as I can tell) was an unusual circumstace of a bad tag. Much like the "unearthed arcana" tag

We do have"Is it acceptable to append the “dnd-5e” tag to questions that lack it but are about Adventurers League?" but that's also exceptional in that there were a series of edits and yeah...

AncientSwordRage

@HellSaint I changed my name on the stack that's linked to chat

Thomas Markov

18:08

This question kind of made me say "awww, thats cute"

AncientSwordRage

@HellSaint good spot

Thomas Markov

18:26

I found zero candidates for reposting.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I found seven... all already re-asked

Thomas Markov

The pattern I saw was that people who ask good questions tag them or at least come back to tag them.

Someone_Evil

And that with a lot of abandoned questions getting deleted

Thomas Markov

Hey @Someone_Evil how long should one wait before reposting a closed question with proper tags?

asking for a friend

Or is that an appropriate meta discussion to have?

Someone_Evil

What a fun question that is. IIRC it takes a month for closed questions with a score of 0 or less(?) to be deleted, so at that point you'd absolutely be good.

Rubiksmoose

18:41

@ThomasMarkov definitely appropriate for meta.

Someone_Evil

The system doesn't actually care about who asks and so on, but anything less than 24h seems rude to me an even then. We said 72h for homebrew-review iterations so maybe that's a pace to hook onto

Rubiksmoose

not sure if I have any idea how to come up with a reasonable one aside from the roomba date that @Someone_Evil already mentioned

Someone_Evil

I'm not sure you're gonna get a firm answer, or at least not until it becomes a problem and we need to enact a policy

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil Im trying to get a policy before I make it a problem :p

but thinking through it, I can anticipate some issues it may cause which ill bring up in the meta.

Someone_Evil

We do get querent coming back weeks later and specify the system. Not often, but I'm not looking forward to explaining to an asker "Sorry you're question was reasked by someone else, closed as dupe. But you do have an answer now..."

Thomas Markov

18:45

if they waited weeks did they really want the answer? :p

Medix2

I don't think you're going to get any agreed upon answer to "How long do I have to wait before stealing a question"

If you do ask this I'd honestly just say "Link to the supposed-duplicate so it can receive the upvotes and make your own question a community-wiki so you can't"

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 At least with good questions, there comes a point where "stealing" benefits the community.

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov yes. I had to wait a year for an answer to a question once ..

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 community wiki is a great idea.

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov At the moment we seem to be jumping towards doing a meta override, so let's not throw multiple, incompatible approaches at the same time :)

Rubiksmoose

18:46

@Someone_Evil We might be able to merge the questions in that case.

@ThomasMarkov I'm not sure I actually see how CW helps at all here.

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov Note that CW q automatically have CW answers

Thomas Markov

@Rubiksmoose "see, thomas didnt steal your rep"

Medix2

@Rubiksmoose Removes most things you could possibly be considered to be stealing (reputation). though not views

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil ah, nvm then.

Medix2

@Someone_Evil Welp, TIL

Rubiksmoose

18:48

@Medix2 I don't see "stealing" as the big issue here necessarily. But maybe to other users it could be.

Medix2

You could technically give any reputation you make off the question away with a bounty...

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose Not sure explaining merge will be any easier.

Thomas Markov

I think the biggest concern here is something like "new user optics"

Medix2

@Rubiksmoose If stealing isn't the big issue... Then shouldn't I just reask the chronal shift question right now? (I think I am genuinely missing something since that's the whole reason I wouldn't re-ask it)

Rubiksmoose

I should say rep gain isn't the big issue.

Thomas Markov

18:49

@Medix2 that would be stealing in principle from me :p

Rubiksmoose

The issue is that the question is being reasked by someone else. Not gaining rep wouldn't fix that issue at all

@Someone_Evil Probably wouldn't have to as long as we merged it into the original question

Medix2

Hmmm, I suppose I'd be stealing ownership as much as that's possible on this site, fair

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose Oh, I see. Hmm...

Rubiksmoose

Not that I want to have to deal with merging, to be clear.

Someone_Evil

Could we see how using meta overrides works out a bit first?

Rubiksmoose

18:51

It's kind of a difficult tool to use and can only be done by diamond mods.

I was posing a hypothetical solution to a hypothetical issue. Not trying to derail the current line of thinking. We have one meta going on fixing the question, I agree we should see how that goes first.

And heck, OP may come back 5 minutes from now and make this all moot anyways.

[fingers crossed]

Thomas Markov

Im still going to ask the meta

seen lots of good ideas and discussion here, id like to see some of it recorded there.

Medix2

@Someone_Evil What's a "meta override"?

Carcer

it's great that we all know exactly what the question is but have to do shenanigans like reask it just to be able to answer it.

Medix2

@Carcer Well seemingly people agree with that state of affairs

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 Meta question which overrides the no-guess policy for a given question

Rubiksmoose

18:57

@Medix2 Well, at least not enough of them disagree ;-)

Medix2

@Someone_Evil I mean... the policy says to do them (in edit 15 or something I'm sure)

Thomas Markov

@Carcer an upsettingly poignant commentary on the drawbacks of the policy.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 Fine, overrides the general rule.

Thomas Markov

specific beats general :p

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov I was trying to not actually say that :)

Medix2

18:59

@Someone_Evil Oh oh, I see what you mean now, sorry about that

Carcer

we've agreed this is the price we have to pay so that people who should be less confident about whether or not they've positively identified the right game don't make mistakes

Thomas Markov

kids in comments on untagged posts be like...

Shalvenay

hey there @JohnP, how've things been going?

also: FR question: circa 1372 DR, what religious sects would be considered "recognized" in Amn?

Thomas Markov

19:24

my meta question has the tags tag.

so meta.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov MSE has the tag meta-faq because they needed a way to talk about the faq

TIL the adjective attendant

Thomas Markov

meta.meta.se seems like a quality april fools joke.

@Medix2 I used it several times in my thesis because it was the canonical adjective for describing the relation between two different structures and now i cant stop.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov There is a post on that too XD

Thomas Markov

My post has two upvotes, and only 1 view, which I assume is myself.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov Probably refreshing is your friend. *cache noises*

Thomas Markov

19:47

How did this question get to 3k views so fast?

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov HNQ my friend

Medix2

@Someone_Evil Is there a way to see if a post you're looking at is on the HNQ?

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 There might be a userscript...

Medix2

@Someone_Evil Ah, it's in the timeline... as helpful as that is XD

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 It's in the timeline when it joins, but there's no note made for leaving

Medix2

19:50

@Someone_Evil Oh that's... interesting

Someone_Evil

So I didn't find anything like that (doesn't look like SOX includes it either), but I did find

6

Q: Would it be possible to create a script that could be run manually to unprotect questions that meet certain parameters?

One of the sites I use has in excess of 10% of their questions protected. It's a small site but this seems like a huge amount, largely due to questions being on the HNQ regularly and attracting many low-quality answers. If the site decided on these parameters (likely based on either question age...

support questions scripts protected-posts

On the other hand, I have a pythonscript which grabs the HNQ list and filters for the rpg questions. There's max 5 so the check is easy (and you can kinda get an intuition for whether a question is on HNQ if keep an eye on things for long enough)

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil Nice find!

I use a userscript which puts an icon next to questions that are HNQ

I think it does a bunch of other stuff as well.

Someone_Evil

@Rubiksmoose Link pls

Hot RPG Questions

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Q: Are there any monsters with hypnosis-like abilities and what type of saving throw do they force?

I am wondering if any monsters have a hypnosis-like spell or feature, and if so what is the ability used in the saving throw? What I mean about "hypnosis" is that it falls short of complete mind control. I.E. they person conducting the hypnosis can control the person except they cannot make them ...

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Thomas Markov

would you look at that.

its 110 views at this moment

Someone_Evil

20:02

Yup, just passed the 8h mark which is why it when on now

Rubiksmoose

@Someone_Evil Lets see if I can figure out which one it is lol

@Someone_Evil Looks like it is SOX

The Oracle

20:33

3

Q: How long should one wait before reposting a question that was closed per "don't guess the system"?

Some times valid questions come through that do not explicitly identify the attendant rpg system. Usually, the querent returns to clarify in a timely fashion. But what if they don't? How long should one wait before reposting the question with the appropriate tags? The idea here is that we have a ...

discussion tags

HellSaint

@ThomasMarkov As I mentioned earlier, the one time I asked a question on someone's else behalf, I got closed and ultimately got like 2 mods and 3 high rep users telling me to not do that ever again :v

Thomas Markov

do you remember where it was?

Rubiksmoose

lol I don't recall what that was about. Though I do have vague memories of one time a question was re-asked without sufficient clarity.

HellSaint

@Rubiksmoose you weren't a mod back then haha

it was mxyzplk

Rubiksmoose

ahhh back in the "old days" eh?

Thomas Markov

20:44

@HellSaint I think its this one

HellSaint

@Rubiksmoose Although one of the comments was yours... rpg.stackexchange.com/q/121224/43856 :P

@ThomasMarkov Yeap.

But I really thought SSD had also thrown a comment there saying something like "eh bad idea"

Seems I misremembered

@ThomasMarkov and yeah not really hard to find. It seems I have two questions that have been closed haha

Thomas Markov

two closed and two dupes

this one seems to have been a small kerfuffle too: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/122236/…

KorvinStarmast

@HellSaint That is one of those questions where I think KRyan's comment was correct, for all that he and I disagreed on the original ...

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint ahhhhh that one. A spinoff of the question that killed designer-reasons lol

HellSaint

@Rubiksmoose Yup!

Rubiksmoose

20:50

It might have been bad luck that that happened to be the one you tried given the significant heat (pun intended) around it.

Thomas Markov

@Rubiksmoose we might need some damage control on that witch question

HellSaint

@ThomasMarkov well that one is actually simple to explain

the question for which it is linked as a dupe did not contain my question, previously

we then edited the original question and the answer

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov I'd like the OP to hit chat and do some brainstorming . that is what chat is for.

HellSaint

and then it was peacefully closed as dupe

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov OP has the rep

Thomas Markov

20:53

@KorvinStarmast like when we brainstormed find greatest steed. good times.

Rubiksmoose

@ThomasMarkov I see.

Thanks for the heads up.

Thomas Markov

Things seem to be getting a bit tense.

Rubiksmoose

A bit.

I'm not actually sure witches are a race in HDM. Though I've not really thought about it before.

(sidenote)

KorvinStarmast

Outta here for a bit, question IMO still needs a bit more focus.

Rubiksmoose

And they definitely aren't the same as Calypso from PotC...

Someone_Evil

20:57

@Rubiksmoose Pretty sure they are just a people

HellSaint

yeah, Witch as a race is a very confusing point of view for me haha

We might need to help the dude though

Thomas Markov

Witch seems more like an occupation tbh.

Rubiksmoose

The idea that witch means something universally is confusing to me as well. Like Pratchett witches and Harry Potter witches would not play well with each other lol

Thomas Markov

Or in RPGs, commonly referred to as a class

HellSaint

Their last posts that I have seen all got like 2-3 net downvote score, and they may be getting a little frustrated

@Rubiksmoose Agreed

Thomas Markov

21:00

American Horror Story Witch or Wizard of Oz witch? Who's to say?

HellSaint

In D&D we have the Hags, which are probably the closest we can get to a "witch"

Thomas Markov

@HellSaint in the classical or gothic sense, yeah.

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint Indeed and we're forming a bit of a help pile.

HellSaint

And isn't a Warlock just a male Witch? In Portuguese both words have the same translation, just different genders

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov Yeah, while it's a look time since I read HDM, Book of Dust is really making them out to be a people (with queens and all IIRC)

Thomas Markov

21:02

In the Scooby Doo cartoon movie Witch's Ghost the villain described himself as a warlock.

Rubiksmoose

@HellSaint In some contexts I think it can be.

Though I don't think universally true.

Thomas Markov

An instant classic if you ask me: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooby-Doo!_and_the_Witch%27s_Ghost

Someone_Evil

@HellSaint I think the general conclusion is that most of the "class" names don't make consistent sense outside the game

MikeQ

I suggest easing up on the asker a bit. Most of the comments seem to object to their perception of witches and tieflings.

Rubiksmoose

I agree. We just need more details about what they actually want mechanically.

MikeQ

21:04

The question is closed because it's an opinion poll with vague criteria. Let's focus on improving that, instead of challenging the asker to prove that one fictional thing can be another fictional thing in a fantasy setting.

Thomas Markov

That comment section is looking much better

GcL

Some witches aren't witches at all! They're Miracle Max's wife. Humperdinck! Humperdinck! Humperdinck!

Hot RPG Questions

21:39

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Q: Are there any melee alternatives to Power Word Kill?

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Medix2

22:14

Hmmm I hate unknowable statistics...

GcL

Like the proportion of the lyrics that you sing incorrectly during your entire life?

Medix2

Sure

GcL

I'd like a stats page for life that was miraculously tabulated. We could make up some crazy achievement badges.

Hot RPG Questions

22:28

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Q: Does Cunning Action: Aim affect a Scout Rogue's skirmisher ability?

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Thomas Markov

@HellSaint According to your answer 18 of my 21 posted questions shouldn’t have been asked.

HellSaint

@ThomasMarkov That might be a feedback to you then :P

Thomas Markov

Or maybe I’m not understanding what you’re meaning by “actual problem that you face”.

Does it count as an actual problem if I’m reading rules and am not sure how I would rule something were I to encounter it in play?

HellSaint

@ThomasMarkov Is it likely that you are actually going to encounter it in play? Do you imagine you having to actually rule it any time soon, in any table you are currently running?

If yes, then yes, it does count.

The problem with a theoretical maybe I will have to rule it some day in my life is that it may depend heavily on your players, on the table you have set up, on your session 0, for example.

If you don't even have a table where that may happen (e.g. you are asking about a warlock feature but you don't even have a warlock in any of your tables), then how can we get the clarity about what playstyle that warlock is aiming for when he got that feature?

Thomas Markov

@HellSaint There’s a meaningful sense in which RAW rulings should be independent of those things.

HellSaint

22:43

@ThomasMarkov Sure, but it also means it only applies to a table playing by RAW. Which from my experience is actually a negligible number compared to all the tables running crazy house rules, homebrews and RAF.

Thomas Markov

Sure, but a RAW ruling at least helps to set a reasoned guideline for those other tables - a jumping off point to move on to a ruling that fits their style of play.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts here.

HellSaint

Except if those other tables have any of these problems, they can come here and ask about it, and it will be a way better question tailored for their own table.

BESW

@Medix2 Wildcards are awesome!

HellSaint

The point is that the SE system by itself is made with that in mind: we want to help people having actual problems. In general, we do not want to waste our very precious time answering a question that may not ever turn into an actual problem.

BESW

HellSaint

22:47

One of the reasons I really hate discussing coffeelock. People talk about it so often, about how much it is broken, and if they should or not allow it in their tables, and yet I have met like 1 player that actually wanted to play the cheese build in my life.

GcL

@HellSaint Speak for yourself. A bunch of question here are ones that people are unlikely to actually run into. Some of the interesting ones likely arise from reading the rules and thinking, "hey... does this make an edge case with that other thing i was just reading?"

HellSaint

@GcL Not speaking "for myself". Speaking for what is literally written in the very foundations of stack exchange and stack overflow itself.

GcL

I must have missed those foundations during the tour.

HellSaint

You must have, because it is written in the tour.

Like, literally: "Focus on questions about an actual problem you have faced. Include details about what you have tried and exactly what you are trying to do."

Thomas Markov

Is that part of the tour written generically for all stacks?

GcL

22:51

@HellSaint Being confused or unclear about how rules interact sounds like a real problem I've come across when reading the rules.

Carcer

@HellSaint look, sometimes people are gonna ask questions that are purely theoretical and that's fine. SE is most helpful when finding solutions to people's specific real problems but it also works as a venue for questions that are simply about satisfying curiosity

stacks like puzzling and code golf exist for those very kinds of questions

HellSaint

@Carcer I am not saying they won't, and I am not saying it's off-topic. I'm saying they are most likely going to be worse questions.

And when it's a question about a problem that someone is actually having, asking that very same question on other people's behalf is a bad idea, because then you are not allowing the person actually having the problem to have a better question answered.

Carcer

they are less likely to be useful questions but sometimes people just enjoy theorycrafting

BESW

Salty Sweet Games released "a small note about transparency, expectations, and the goals of Salty Sweet Games." (twitter link)

HellSaint

@Carcer For context, this is why this is being talked about rpg.meta.stackexchange.com/a/10091/43856

Medix2

22:55

@ThomasMarkov I've given up on having people agree what questions should exist. Between optimization, tool recommendation, and what level of description is required for character generation... I gave up

HellSaint

What may have happened is that people might be understanding my comment as a more general "never ask theoretical questions" than I wanted it to be.

Carcer

okay, this makes more sense now

BESW

Bolt RPG has a new logo! (twitter link)

Glazius

Yeah, RPGs are a little weird in that regard. Even with codegolf, you can compile and run people's solutions and verify they do what they should. But with RPGs you're often expected to teach the rules and make rulings at the table so you can run into a problem during prep rather than during play.

MikeQ

@GcL A real problem doesn't need to be a real world problem. If someone is reading a system's rules, and they come across something that raises a question for them, then the problem is sufficiently real.

Medix2

23:06

Code Golf is also notably unusual in that it has a sandbox that many posts are recommended to go through before actually being posted

GcL

@MikeQ I concur.

BESW

There's a conversation on twitter about designing games so GMing isn't such a burden (and of course GMless games are a revelation).

Medix2

I should play more Microscope... Unless there's some reason I shouldn't that I'm unaware of

BESW

We also need a culture of GM support, which is almost harder to do because so many big-influence games give the GM social authority as well.

Medix2

@BESW Could I get a translation on that one? Not really sure what "GM support" or "social authority" mean there

BESW

23:11

Basically? We need to treat GMs as co-equal players of the game.

HellSaint

@MikeQ I agree that it is a problem to that person and they are free to ask the question. I won't even downvote a question like that, and I have made such questions before (this one I guess for example). But again: making rulings is something largely dependent on the table playstyle and expectations.

A ruling question on "we were playing and this scenario showed up and this is how I ruled but this problem happened, how do I rule it right?" is frequently more upvoted, receives better answers, and is overall better quality than "I was reading through the rules and I imagined this very unlikely scenario and I'm curious how this should be played out"

BESW

Don't expect the GM to host, don't make it the GM's job to convince everyone else to be invested, divest tasks like initiative and condition tracking among the group, don't make the GM be the only creative voice for the world...

HellSaint

Just take a look at our most upvoted questions, they are about problems people have faced playing. Tbh most aren't even rule-based, because it turns out most likely a rules problem can be solved by the DM ruling whatever and people having fun lul

Exceptions being that one question about why the hell are gorgons metal bulls that breath petrifying poison in D&D?

BESW

Anybody can host, everyone should be responsible for their own and each other's investment, there are lots of mechanical tasks given to the GM which anyone at the table can do, sharing creative authority makes the world more dynamic and reduces GM cognitive load and prep time. And please please PLEASE don't expect the GM to be the person who handles interpersonal problems at the table just because they're the person who handles the game.

3

GcL

@HellSaint Thanks for that. My favorite so far is about flipping off a mother-in-law

BESW

23:16

One of the reasons I started GMing was that D&D gave me, as DM, social authority over the space. I was interested in making a compassionate, drug-free space for my friends and being DM gave me an extra oomph of authority to do it and kick out people who weren't complying, even though we played in other peoples' houses.

It worked out okay for me, but it would have been BETTER, and much less stressful for me, if I'd known how to make that a group goal everyone was invested in and everyone enforced.

ACuriousMind

@BESW I feel like these are very different demands - everything except the "creative voice" is about social aspects, but the matter of how creative control is distributed is a matter of system and play style. I've enjoyed - as player and GM - many tables where the GM having creative control was crucial because the thrill was in discovering, not inventing, aspects of the world as a player.

BESW

Because that translated into so many pressures it's one of the reasons I kinda burned out years later.

HellSaint

@GcL That one is new haha. As I mentioned in the meta answer, theoretical optimization are a clear exception to this idea and are usually well received in the site

Medix2

@HellSaint That was a really good response to my comment, thanks for that

BESW

@ACuriousMind Counterpoint: as a GM I like to be surprised too. There are plenty of systems where we're all surprised to discover the world because everyone contributing elements means none of us could possibly predict the shape of the whole.

HellSaint

23:20

@Medix2 That was just parapharsing a criticism I have received when I have done the very same thing I am telling people not to do ;P

Medix2

@BESW I find myself quite glad that the groups I play with actively avoid and discuss avoiding those things (that might have been worded wrong... negatives are hard to track)

BESW

So, no, I don't think it's a category difference because I'm not talking about in-game and out-of-game categories; I'm talking about "how we treat the GM as different from other players when we don't have to" categories.

The simple idea that the GM is the one with control and authority, extends inward to the game and outward to the social space, and separating those two kinds of control makes it harder to diagnose the origin of the symptoms.

ACuriousMind

@BESW Yes, that can be fun too! I just think it's a matter of preference ( in contrast to the other issues you brought up. That is, I would unequivocally agree that all the other things you mentioned always make a game or its social dynamics better, while it's not always strictly better to share authorship over the world

HellSaint

@BESW +infinity for "Don't make it the GM's job to convince everyone else to be invested"

BESW

@HellSaint Oh. my. gosh. this is one of the things which drove me away from WoD games and back into the exclusive arms of D&D for half a decade.

D&D is designed (usually poorly, but designed from the ground up) on the assumption that a single player cannot succeed at the meaningful tasks the game will set for them; they must have a group of characters with multiple complementing talents and hit points to share.

Medix2

23:25

@BESW My brain went "50 years of D&D? BESW can time travel?" and I was a lot less surprised at that conclusion than I thought I'd have been

BESW

WoD, at least the way it was played with me, gives you characters which are extremely self-sufficient mechanically AND have internal and external motives not to trust other people or share with them (because of the paranoid nature of the setting).

Thus in D&D the "we're a team" dynamic is baked into the premise and its implementation, while in WoD the idea of being a team has to be actively found by the players or Storyteller without support from the game's own material. This usually results in the ST bringing in one of the strongest NPCs in the setting who forces the PCs to cooperate with each other on pain of pain.

(Of course, then you get alignment and D&D throws all its tenuous teamwork infrastructure out the window at the slightest hint of "my guy," there are much much better systems for this. But when I was an itsy baby BESW gamer, D&D and WoD were the choices in front of me, and GMing a party in WoD was clearly going to be about as fun as nailing Jello to a tree.)

MikeQ

I too got burned out of DMing after being expected to write up a full campaign, flesh out the setting details, also allowing for unpredictable player choices, also while acting as a game designer, hotelier, and event planner juggling everyone else's schedules, and doing all that on top of real life obligations

BESW

One of the things which made me latch onto Fate with both hands was the ability for aspects to get players to write, quite consciously, "This is why my character cares and is working with the others." And then you've got currency to explore it.

HellSaint

@MikeQ Yeap, especially the "event planner juggling everyone else's schedules" annoys me.

BESW

Heh.

Eventually I was just like "I'll be here on Saturdays. Anybody else who can come, we'll play a game together."

HellSaint

23:32

I have had a group that literally begged me to DM to them. Then they would make infernally hard to actually meet and play.

Then they complained my story-driven adventure was "not funny" because they didn't care about the story. Side note: they asked for an open world, story-driven campaign.

Then complained it was not a railroad dungeon crawl /facepalm

BESW

("Whoever shows up, we'll play a game" works a lot better when you're not tied to a system with massive sunk costs that can take hours to make a character and expects months-long campaigns. We just pick whatever game those people feel like that night.)

HellSaint

Then I stopped DMing to them :)

MikeQ

Another downside of solo authorship is that it can't really account for players' goals and expectations

BESW

Yeah, that's very true. My most successful games as a solo author were successful because I spent many hours with the players outside of the game, sharing lots of other activities and also listening to their conversations with each other about the game.

I had to process all of that and figure out what it meant for the game, which (a) only works if you're spending all your time with the same people and (b) is exhausting.

I was h*ckin' good at it but I never want to do it again.

HellSaint

@MikeQ I think that's more of a problem with pre-planning rather than with solo authorship?

If you are building your world kinda on the run while listening to your players' goals, that's less of a problem, I think

BESW

23:43

@HellSaint Not really, because players are rarely communicating goals and expectations at the table either, unless specifically prompted.

MikeQ

Yes, but what if the players don't give you goals, and instead approach the campaign like a video game, expecting a complete product

HellSaint

I see, I am usually very clear in asking them what the hell they want from this game haha

MikeQ

Oh, so was I. And the answer was always "whatever. monsters and stuff."

BESW

A lot of players say what their character is doing without explaining what they, the player, hope it will accomplish.

Sometimes they don't have the training to express it clearly, often they've been burned by antagonistic GMs so they think expressing their wishes is giving the GM information to use against them and the only way to "win" is to trick the GM into letting them by not disclosing their win conditions.

@MikeQ This so much. Recognizing what you want and expressing it clearly is a skill set and most of us don't have a lot of practice with it.

MikeQ

Since I was DM, I was supposed to create everything, while having no idea if a particular character/encounter/location/plot point was something the players even wanted. They wanted to be surprised. And then whenever they surprised me, they'd act like it was my fault for not considering every possible outcome.

BESW

23:46

Even a prompt as simple as Mission Briefing can be a good tool to help develop those skills.

HellSaint

Hm, fair enough. I usually DM to new players. I find it way better. They are like pure vessels to whom I can explain that my goal is to make their goals to be fulfilled, but give them a challenge in the meantime, not to f*** them off haha

MikeQ

It was like having toddlers, and they say they want pasta for supper, so you cook them pasta, and then they're upset because it turns out they didn't want pasta

HellSaint

The table I was talking about earlier: every time I ruled something in a way that was not benefiting them, it would be an argument starter, because they thought I was ruling that way in order to kill the characters.

Dude, I can have my random Wizard cast meteor storm on your 3rd level character. If I wanted to kill the characters, I don't need to rule anything ZzZ

I never understood the concept of the antagonistic GM

MikeQ

Technically true, although that's maybe not the best explanation if dealing with players who expect an antagonistic DM

HellSaint

@MikeQ hahaha yeah pretty much that.

BESW

23:51

@MikeQ Yeah, that sounds like they didn't know how to analyze their own goals and express them clearly. "story-driven," "railroad," "open world," these are buzzwords we tend to hear and repeat without a lot of reflection.

HellSaint

"We want an open world story-driven campaign!" "Awww it's not a railroad dungeon crawl? :( "

Argh, I'm still frustrated.

BESW

I've also seen a lot of friction come from wanting a game that feels like a polished, edited Actual Play by professional actors.

HellSaint

@BESW "Aw you are not impersonating your NPCs as well as Matt Mercer :("

I AM NOT A VOICE ACTOR. I AM NOT EVEN AN ACTOR.

MikeQ

Don't even get me started on that

BESW

So we ask for the trappings of that Actual Play, the system, the style, etc. And if they don't visibly use safety techniques, we don't want no safety techniques. etc.

MikeQ

23:54

I'd bet many successful Actual Play games do have the safety techniques and extra communication, but it's just not shown to the audience

BESW

Yup. They edit out the "boring" bits which actually make the game work.

And the really high-polish APs also tend to be loosely scripted beforehand.

HellSaint

@BESW As someone who has friends that are professional actors that play RPG on live streams: loosely scripted is an understatement.

BESW

But it's not like this wasn't a problem before APs; trying to model your game after your favorite book or movie runs into similar problems.

HellSaint

idk about AP itself, or other very famous programs, but I doubt they are anywhere near as improvised as an actual game

BESW

And this brings us back to the GM: if we want a campaign that creates the feeling of a written and edited product like reading a book, watching a movie, streaming a game... that's put the players in the position of the passive consumer of creative content, and the GM gets the pressure to prep and improvise an experience comparable to professionally written and edited media.

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