TRPG General Chat

NautArch

7:02 PM

Debating about putting up another answer on this question.

But I think it's kinda got an overkill level of answers

GcL

@NautArch Your players need consequences.

NautArch

@GcL oh, they get them.

So far, things haven't been too egregious

but they've suffered for their choices, although it's also opened up some new opportunities for storylines for me.

some doors close, others open

want them to pursue their choices, have consequences, but still enjoy the path their going down

goodguy5

Saturday night was my game.

The group (who I have started calling Orphan Co. ™ - because coincidentally, more than half of them decided to be orphans) got back to town and awaited the NPC Paladin to return (Basically Alexander Anderson, if you watched Hellsing).

When he does the group looks at the job board.
Half the group wants to go check out this old farm house that allegedly has some necromantic events happening (this church views Resurrection as an abonination).

The other half goes to the slums to procure some illicit herbs and chemicals from the town lowlife, Toothy Joe.

but Players, man.

GcL

@NautArch Like, "if we hadn't been disallowed to come into town, we'd never have camped out and found this neat haunted cave?"

NautArch

@goodguy5 party splits :/

goodguy5

7:06 PM

ikr

I need to try to do something to quash that

GcL

@goodguy5 Sounds like a job for consequences

goodguy5

I've got a few consequences rattling around.

but nothing that would have been immediately useful

GcL

Having to drug the paladin in order to so something is usually a warning sign. Reminds me of the myopic heavy handed interpretations from 2e

NautArch

@GcL More like when I tried to introduce them to NPCs that were going to be friendly and helpful but they trick them and get on their bad side. So I set them up with an encounter in the middle of a city where the more violent members of the NPC group confront them.

MikeQ

@goodguy5 Why'd you let the second group go on their paladin-drugging quest? Hindsight is 20/20 but you could've had Toothy Joe redirect them to the haunted farmhouse. Then the party isn't split anymore.

NautArch

7:08 PM

The party kills them, so now they've got a mark on them from their boss.

GcL

@NautArch Sounds like a reward for murder hobos

NautArch

Boss meets them and forces them to work for him and 'rescue' a prisoner held by the town guard.

But the players were working with the guard captain. SO now they've got to balance those two relationshps

goodguy5

I'm not 100% sure. They might have even said that first.

And really, it was the one girl, and another player bandwagoned. not 100% sure.

NautArch

but eventually, they'll have to choose, and it won't go well with whomever they don't choose.

goodguy5

@MikeQ aw, dang. that WOULD have been a good idea.

GcL

7:10 PM

@NautArch If they get to fight and kill a problem, that's a win for murder hobos.

goodguy5

But I did get to sell one of the PCs "little blue fungus", so that was funny for me.

MikeQ

General advice for DMs (and parents) - It's best to say no beforehand, rather than allow them to cause havoc and then be forced to impose consequences later

NautArch

@MikeQ I'm actually generally okay with their chosen paths. At the end, I want to have fun. I can write them stories that play to their desires, but they may have trouble in this city, and potentially others.

goodguy5

I try, but sometimes things get away from me.

NautArch

I don't want them to play a certain way. I want them to have fun in my world and have the world respond accordingly.

GcL

7:11 PM

@MikeQ I prefer laying out the consequences of the action and then following through with children. With table top players, I keep it to concrete outcomes that the characters would know and the some on the nose ques about expected outcomes.

NautArch

If they want to be murder hobos, i can roll with that. But dealing with guards and royalty may not be so easy.

MikeQ

@goodguy5 I can understand that. It takes practice.

GcL

Like, you can do this, but your training/memory/experience of the fighters|monks|rogues tell you that X, Y, and Z will likely result.

MikeQ

Looking back, in most cases when I had a player do something unbelievably stupid or frustrating or gamebreaking, it was because I had allowed them to do it. A failure to preemptively say no. So the blame is shared.

NautArch

I prefer the improvisational opportunities their shenanigans give me. I mean, yeah, it'd be awesome if they did what I hoped. But that's rarely the case.

I have said "are you sure you want to do this?"

And so have the other players. But it still happens, and then whatever happens next happens next.

goodguy5

7:16 PM

I'm personally more a fan of "Are you sure you want to try that?" than "no, you can't do that."

I will even sometimes tell the player straight up, "You know this is a bad idea."

NautArch

@goodguy5 But how many times have you said that and they didn't do it?

goodguy5

pfff, like twice

NautArch

two more times than me!

goodguy5

ha!

NautArch

Heck, they made a decision that should have ended in a TPK, but they got really lucky with the rolls.

GcL

7:18 PM

Yeah, I've never had, "are you sure?" prevent action. Have had luck with expected consequences or results based on character expertise or experience.

MikeQ

@goodguy5 That's probably more effective. In many cases the player may not understand why it's a bad idea.

Things like "are you sure?" or "make a Wisdom check" come off as kinda insulting

NautArch

But even "This is a bad idea" generally gets filed by them under "I'm gonna do it anyway"

goodguy5

"make a wisdom check" seems trite to me, unless it's something that specifically would call into question character experience.

and even then, I would just tell them:
"you recall your experience as a dock hand; you know that climbing a sail is a bad idea under good weather; triply so in a lightning storm."

MikeQ

@NautArch Again, it often helps to explain why it's a bad idea. Because maybe they just don't know, or they understand the situation differently than it's been described.

NautArch

@MikeQ Yup, done that. They still always do it.

KorvinStarmast

7:21 PM

@goodguy5 that comic reminds me of a few raids where the players more or less "lost the plot"

NautArch

"you realize that the guards are standing right there and can see you easily?"

"yes, i'm going to do it anyway"

okeydoke!

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch As Iggy Pop once said: More is Better. :)

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast heh. not sure on that. And I do really like Kryan's answer.

MikeQ

@NautArch Hm. Well, is everyone at the table still having fun anyway?

goodguy5

^

that's the big thing.

NautArch

7:25 PM

@MikeQ oh yes! I think there is some frustration with decisions by the other players, but everyone is still enjoying it.

If anything, I'd prefer they either roleplay or talk OOC to resolve these decisions.

I don't want to tell them how to play

KorvinStarmast

That's a good approach, IME.

MikeQ

Yeah, that's fair. If the other players are ok with the consequences then I suppose there's not much of a reason to intervene.

NautArch

And they will come to learn that everyone lives in gray. THey're going to need to make hard decisions about choosing sides

MikeQ

I was speaking more in terms of the effect it has on the other players, rather than the effects it has in-universe

NautArch

i'ma lso trying not to 'punish', but to just be realistic about consequences and provide new paths after choosing them.

goodguy5

7:39 PM

I kind of wish I'd have taken the resurrected farmer in a different direction, but it be what it be.

GcL

@NautArch One of my favorites it the party develops a reputation as being the baddies in some region and a call goes out for heroes that can rid the land of the scourge.

MikeQ

@NautArch Good. It's a weird message when the DM allows (or encourages) some in-game decision, and then actively tries to punish the players themselves. Instead I like to think of in-game consequences as "complications" rather than "punishments".

goodguy5

@GcL I've never had that come up, but I've talked to plenty of DMs that have.

GcL

I've had fun with the party being hired to track down some baddies that did basically the same things the party did a short while ago.

Like, "hey, go kill these criminals and don't bother to offer quarter"

Also, flipping the script so to speak is a young boy comes into a tavern yelling for help as some bad guys are robbing a store. Players vs murder hobos in the street. As a way of illustrating what could happen.

MikeQ

@GcL That's a good approach. Have the villains demonstrate the type of playstyles and actions that you want to discourage.

Andras Deak

7:47 PM

Are they empathetic enough to realize that they don't want to be on the other side of the turntables?

GcL

@AndrasDeak Maybe? Do you mind TPK'ing a player group if they do something foolish?

Rubiksmoose

I could see that working the other way as well. Giving players more opportunity to muder hobo (even if it is a murder hobo) seems like it has potential to send the wrong message.

But then again, it certainly is something to try!

GcL

@Rubiksmoose It's a prompt of the people of the environment want X killed. Which is responding to what the environmental prompt and population desire is.

Andras Deak

@GcL if I played and DM'ed it would probably depend. If they had it coming then no, not at all

there's a difference between foolish and foolish

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Put one up :)

GcL

7:50 PM

I ran a short set of adventures of all rogues for my virtual table top players. It was filled with deadly consequences and it only half-jokingly illustrated how rogue like the world was.

Rubiksmoose

@GcL I mean I get the theory behind it, I'm just not sure the murder hobo-ish groups I've played with before would cotton onto what was happening.

NautArch

@MikeQ exactly! Consequences. Just like in life. It's all about the story and the story can change.

Rubiksmoose

But I'd definitely give it a try in a group now if I ever needed to.

GcL

@Rubiksmoose At least it's foreshadowing when they rob a place, and a kid runs into a tavern and a party of L10 adventurers otherwise minding their own business come out to lay down smack.

MikeQ

@NautArch I think the difference in approach is that "punishments" usually don't typically have a way out, whereas "complications" can be worked with into a fun story development.

Rubiksmoose

7:51 PM

For sure lol

@NautArch I see you couldn't resist jumping into that returning net question lol

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, the answers were bothering me.

They all tried to promote a raw that I don't think exists

MikeQ

@Rubiksmoose I think this is where the disconnect happens for me. PCs are given weapons and combat abilities, sent on some genocidal pillaging mission, rewarded for it, and then expected not to be disruptive murderhobos.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Yeah a lot of them leaned on this doesn't explicitly say this so we can can conclusively say this. Basically a lot of RAW ruling based on what isn't being said.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I actually removed my upvote to Kryan because they suggested another RAW answer was right. THey were spot on before that.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch The tricky part is where people don't consider that RAW can have multiple valid interpretations and then failing to show why their RAW interpretation is the best/higher one.

@NautArch oh, I hadn't noticed they did that. Well. Hm.

NautArch

7:58 PM

@Rubiksmoose Yup. and then the believers glom onto that and upvote and move on.

Mark Wells

@MikeQ A useful perspective on "Are you sure you want to try that?" .

6

NautArch

And disbelievers downvote and move on. But no one is moving the needle.

@Rubiksmoose I had also liked Yakk's before they made an edit

GcL

@NautArch I'm not a fan of answers that refer to other answers without linking to them. "what XYZ said was right, but ...."

NautArch

@GcL that too! If you're gonna referenc,e at least link.

@Rubiksmoose @V2Blast At what point is it reasonable to post a meta about the status of a flag? I've had one pending for several days now.

Andras Deak

@NautArch and HNQ traffic can't downvote

NautArch

8:01 PM

@AndrasDeak I did not know that!

but they can upvote?

Andras Deak

well, you need 125 rep for downvotes, and association bonus is 101

yup, 15 rep for upvotes

one of the great crimes of HNQ

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I do generally like that answer still. I think the edit to include something about whether the enemy comes with the net was something the answer lacked originally and I think is necessary for a complete answer. Not sure they did it completely enough for me.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose yeah, no upvote, but no down either.

at least for/from me

V2Blast

@NautArch Heh, we've actually been discussing that one earlier today. I think the general consensus among the mods is that it doesn't really require mod intervention (maybe a post notice at best) but it would be improved if the author talked about their experience using the linked tools.

GcL

@MarkWells I like that approach. Instead of, "GM: The building is 200 feet tall. You’ll take 20d6 points of damage if you do that." I like to put it in terms of character information. Like, "As a rogue, you know the furthest drop any cat burglar has ever survived is 100 feet. This is twice that."

Rubiksmoose

8:03 PM

@NautArch In general, really I'm not sure of any rule of thumb that I can give you there. But as V2blast alluded to we are very much aware of the flag and it is in active discussion. You are welcome to post a Meta about it if you want to have it discussed publicly (or if you are unhappy or confused with the result). But rest assured, we have not forgotten it!

GcL

@MarkWells I totally concur on the investigate guidance. "What question are you trying to answer? or what are you specifically looking for?"

NautArch

@V2Blast Honeslty it was the notice I was looking for :) I mean, I can keep making comments, but my concern was starting an argument in an area that seems fairly clear.

@Rubiksmoose I'll await the result and post if I disagree.

Rubiksmoose

Cool beans

Oh hey @NautArch you won the selected answer of the moment for the net question lol

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose "of the moment" :D

@V2Blast And it's not easy because the advice is good. Was debating about responding in comments to @KorvinStarmast about "teach a man to fish". But i'll do it here :) THis isn't teaching a man to fish. This is saying "Hey, I found a bunch of fishing poles. I don't know if they're any good or how to use them. Good luck!"

Upper_Case

8:24 PM

@NautArch Teaching someone how to fish with a fishing pole in a D&D setting is basically an act of violence against them. That's for mundane settings, D&D offers better

V2Blast

@goodguy5 I do think Google defaults to the last translated language (sometimes auto-detected ones). Because I've definitely gone to translate something, expecting google to auto-detect, but it's stayed on the last translated language until I manually select "auto-detect" again. Then again I'm only talking about the website and not anything built into Chrome (I use Firefox).

Andras Deak

I wouldn't worry about spooky prescience when using chrome ;)

Mark Wells

@GcL It takes a bit of training on everyone's part, if they're not used to thinking about "what they're looking for". I've had a player (at a pickup game) ask to "search for traps" and then get annoyed when they couldn't just roll their Investigate check and be told if there were traps.

I get the idea that's what Dungeon World is trying to teach the players by giving a specific list of questions for Discern Realities.

GcL

@MarkWells I don't mind checking for traps. Usually someone in the group has a decent passive perception and they spot all the traps or at least all the triggers for them. I usually throw in some less than great traps that would only catch the unwary. Seems to give the players a sense of being a cut above the rest.

MikeQ

@MarkWells I suspect that many players aren't accustomed to thinking from the perspective of their DM. Sure, it's quicker if the player makes rolls unprompted. But from the DM point of view, it can be distracting.

Upper_Case

8:31 PM

@GcL I just don't like players trying to make hazards irrelevant. If all dungeon traps are blandly rendered meaningless because players say "I check for traps" every time they enter a room, something has gone wrong

NautArch

@GcL I still can't figure out how to do traps well.

GcL

@Upper_Case I make the triggers obvious, but usually that doesn't always tell them what's going on.

@NautArch I've had good experience running them as combats where the trap effect does something, and the trap mechanics can be affected/interacted with

Mark Wells

@MikeQ It is distracting, but it's also unclear what they're rolling for. You're rolling because this action has a chance of success and a chance of failure. So what's success, and what's failure? What position would your character be in if they failed to spot the trap?

GcL

One of the simplest ones I did was a series of mirrors on the walls of a 40ft wide hall. three or four per wall. The trap was a rolling ball of fire. They smashed some of the mirrors which controlled how the fire sphere could move. Some were fast enough to avoid getting hit. The others broke the trap enough to get through reasonably unscathed.

NautArch

@GcL Are the traps 'obvious' and don't require finding?

Just features of the map?

MikeQ

8:33 PM

@MarkWells Exactly. I haven't specified what the roll is for, or what the outcomes could be. So a sudden unprompted roll isn't going to suddenly mean something.

GcL

I wrote the mechanics for it so it's behavior was predictable. The players figured it out in a couple of rounds.

@NautArch They notice something amiss... like mirrors on the walls with no obvious purpose or that they look like they've been heat warped. Usually only give that to passive perception greater than 12 or 13 or something at a certain tile. So advantage for putting eagle eyed characters in front.

Upper_Case

It's also true that just knowing a trap is present doesn't necessarily help you. I once failed a check-for-traps style roll, was still pretty sure a treasure chest was trapped, and then just guessed wrong about how the trap mechanism worked.

NautArch

@GcL gotcha. But what about 'traditional' traps. Just not use them?

GcL

In natural settings, anyone proficient in survival gets to notice dead falls and snares... even if they're meant for hunting. Neat little clues based on skills of the characters.

Upper_Case

So my "knowledge" of "a trap" didn't really help, and I got trap-blasted right in the face by taking the very action I thought would help me avoid it

NautArch

8:36 PM

@GcL What happens if no one is proficient?

MikeQ

@MarkWells Similarly, I don't want to reward players for blurting out "OOH OOH I GOT A NAT 20!" at seemingly random moments when a roll wasn't prompted

GcL

@NautArch I have, but only to play to the character's styles of play. The high dex guy gets to dodge some stuff. Had some fun with a Paladin who took the DR3 feat. They intentionally stepped on all the arrow trap plates because they did 1d4 damage. Just got to use their heavy armor to "disarm" the traps by stomping on them. They seemed very satisfied with that.

Mark Wells

@MikeQ In the case of traps, I usually define the stakes as "On failure, you will attempt to open the cabinet, because it's 'safe'."

GcL

@NautArch I usually only have a couple of those if the story involves, "you're out of your element"

Otherwise, it's usually more satisfying to play to the strengths of the characters. Some hurdles they can use their skills the way they wanted to build them to overcome obstacles that would be very difficult for a generalist or different specialist.

V2Blast

makes sense

GcL

8:38 PM

Like, if the players is going to spend all that time making a character feel special to them, might as well have stories where the specialness gets to play out.

NautArch

@GcL And I guess the concern of present weakness is that it's a problem without a real solution.

Also why I'vemostly taken traps out

GcL

I really found traps that do a thing and have initiative "feel more alive". Like the boulders roll slowly on their turn, or the puffs of smoke go on even rounds and the gouts of flame on odd ones.

Mark Wells

@GcL 5e Lair Action kind of stuff

GcL

@NautArch Yeah. I did too before I found the traps as opponents thing. The regular old traps just aren't that fun.

NautArch

@GcL And too hard to figure out how 'searching' for them really works.

GcL

8:41 PM

@MarkWells Yeah. But make it so they can figure them out and manipulate them. I was really entertained when they had sorted out the layout of the "minesweeper" room, then taunted/led some foes back into the room and maneuvered them so they'd blow themselves up.

@NautArch Ten foot pole trope?

Upper_Case

Do peoples' feelings about traps change much if they are around objects of interest (treasure chests, conspicuous artifacts, etc.) versus if they're just in random hallways?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Not gonna happen. I am researching Tunnels and trolls rules, and may have a question or two about spears.

Mark Wells

@GcL See, that's some sweet old-school play. The floor that belches fire isn't just an Acrobatics DC and a damage roll, it's a physical thing that you can repurpose.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast heh, sorry. Meant I put one up :)

KorvinStarmast

@Upper_Case A trap is a form of protection for something valuable, or, it is a means to slow down an intruder so that guards/etc can apprehend or slay them. That's where I start when I design a trap.

@NautArch Oh, sorry, I'll go and have a look/

NautArch

8:45 PM

@GcL So that means only the 10' around you. A 100' foot room will be annoying.

GcL

I'm always happy about it when the players surmount a problem in a way that I had not expected. Spending time discovering the feeding habits of white and blue dragons... because they listened to foreshadowing. Negotiated a 'tribute' and avoided having to fight a dragon. Coined a adage for the world about the way to a dragon's heart.

MikeQ

@Upper_Case Maybe with genre-savvy players. If the trap just seems out of place, like in the middle of a hallway that doesn't lead anywhere, then it may feel like dungeon filler.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch That's one way to look at it; the other is that once someone knows about those tools, that's all they need. ;) (My personal example being The Alexandrian's site: once the link was provided, I needed no further assistance). That said, the other answers got a lot more votes.

Upper_Case

I meant more the split between "this thing is valuable and obviously positioned, it's possible that there are more defenses than none" and "without any particular reason to think that a trap is in this specific location, you are functionally required to 'check for traps', meaning you are required to do so everywhere, forever"

GcL

Checking for traps really does slow down story telling and fun bits though.

Upper_Case

8:48 PM

The former way always strikes me more as an obvious puzzle with a (loosely) assess-able reward and possible danger. The latter is just a way to whittle down HP, and forces players to play very mechanically vs. organically

BESW

Evil Hat has a further word about Kickstarter.

KorvinStarmast

@Upper_Case 5e has a passive Perception/Investigation mechanic that takes care of some of that. @GcL part of the story includes what the characters do. Successes and failures. Falling into a pit trap is a failure that can be hilarious, fatal, dangerous, or annoying depending on what else is going on

Upper_Case

Sort of like when I got mixed up about what to do next in Silent Hill 4, and I had to go through a dangerous area over and over again to try and figure out what I'd missed. When my friend heard me say "crap, I have to go outside and I'll get shot again" in a resigned way it was clear that the impact of that danger had been blunted

KorvinStarmast

@GcL A few weeks back, we had three out of five of our party fall down into a pit and it turned out to be hilarious ... in that instance

GcL

@KorvinStarmast I've rarely experienced dumb traps as fun. Hilarious only when there's an unlikely failure with an entertaining attempt to deal with them.

KorvinStarmast

8:51 PM

@GcL I guess it all depends on who you are playing with and what attitudes/mind sets they bring to the table. So I guess the context will vary a bit.

an unlikely failure with an entertaining attempt to deal with them I think that describes our case

MikeQ

@Upper_Case Ah, I see what you mean. Traps as a means of reducing PC resources is... fair, I suppose. But yes, it may seem less fun and interesting from the player's perspective.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ If you find them and disarm them, that's fun. (Yeah, my rogue bias is showing)

(Spent waay to many years mostly playing thieves and rogues

And then there's the dismay of missing the disarm trap check and getting poisoned, and dying. Such are the hazards of poking around where one does not belong ...

MikeQ

@KorvinStarmast That's not necessarily fun for everyone. In practice it often just means waiting for the rogue's player to make a d20 roll, and that's basically the extent of the interaction.

Mark Wells

@MikeQ Yeah, if that's all you're going to do then don't bother putting them in.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ The rogue does not shine in combat though (in older editions) as much as the current one. So you might say that "chest opening and trap finding for the benefit of the whole party" is where rogue gets/got their spotlight.

It's a team sport, and the spotlight moves. Or IME, it works best that way.

MikeQ

8:56 PM

@KorvinStarmast I wouldn't say that, because I don't like running those kinds of games

KorvinStarmast

Then don't. :)

MikeQ

Er, specifically, I don't like situations where only one player can interact, and everyone else just sorta sits there twiddling their thumbs

I also don't want players to feel like they're only able to do one specific thing

KorvinStarmast

I do'nt see how that's a trap/rogue problem. That's what I seem to do a lot of (waiting) when waiting for other players to finally decide what spell they are going to use during combat.

(Particularly an issue in the very casual game I play in my brother's world... but we are all long time friends so it's not an aggrivation)

MikeQ

Hm... Good point. Still, I don't want chests/traps to be the only opportunity for the rogue's player to feel like they're contributing.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ I completely agree with you on that. Yes! No one trick ponies.

I must admit that nearly all of the 5e monks I have built, save one, had the criminal background. I think that's my thief/rogue bias again ... it pains me to have good dex and not have a lock pick 8^D

MikeQ

9:01 PM

@MarkWells I once had sort of the reverse scenario, where I had to tell the rogue's player to stop trying to disarm everything, because certain hazards were meant to be resolved as a group, and not just a throwaway d20 roll

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ bravo also a good design method

OK, break over, back to trying to figure out Tunnels and Trolls

Mark Wells

@MikeQ If you're going to use the "roll d20 to disarm this thing" method then IMO you really need time pressure, or some other sharp consequences for failure

there's a reason James Bond never defuses the bomb when it's at 07:00

Andras Deak

I thought that reason was poor writing

Mark Wells

and if the time pressure is, say, that you're under attack

or having to hold the door open by brute force while the rogue fiddles with the mechanism

then the whole group has a part to play

BESW

KiennaCon Sale! Buy any of KiennaS's games for 25% off or all of them for up to 40% off, to support their convention travel expenses.

MikeQ

9:13 PM

@MarkWells Yep. Hadn't even asked for a disarm check. The player was just a longtime 2e/3e vet and accustomed to that automatic assumed playstyle.

BESW

Fight goblin dice with skill challenges.

I really liked 4e's concept for that, but Stalker0's Alternate Core Skill Challenge System made it work a lot better; it was like Fate's challenges but with a D&D attitude.

V2Blast

9:53 PM

I need to remember to use my XP for my L5R character before my session tonight

Hot RPG Questions

10:42 PM

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One of my players is a druid who would like to be able to change their creature type so that they become an invalid target against spells that target humanoids. First party WotC content (including UA) is preferred, though items from previous editions are also acceptable that can be supported by ...

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@HotRPGQuestions be freinds with everyone who can cast any spells that do that

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