TRPG General Chat

Ben

06:00

So when you get to that point of "ohh, this is getting dangerous, I should probably do something about it", you have the option to

That's what it is currently, in a nutshell.

BESW

You might want to check back in with Cthulhu Dark for ideas about mitigating corruption in tonally consistent ways.

Once your Insight hits 5 (when 6 will render you an NPC), you can reduce your Insight by obstructing the investigation.

Ben

Uhhh… brain fart...

Trade off corruption for madness?

BESW

I think this is useful to consider in two ways: first, it forces you to wait 'til you're on the brink before trying to recover. Second, recovering requires actions which make sense for someone with a lot of Insight to do and increases the tension of the game.

It's a mechanic that advances the story, filling a role in that kind of narrative.

Ben

You can choose, at certain points to reduce your corruption/madness, by willingly denying or embracing something about your current state. I.e. you actively deny that hang on, no - you're not turning into a hellbeast. It's just this place playing tricks on your mind.

Or, hang on, no. These hallucinations are apparently real, everyone else is experiencing them, so then they must be real.

Roll dx to determine how many points you shift

This doesn't have much of a story impact though. It's simply a player choice. Sacrifice your "purity" for the sake of your sanity

and vice versa

BESW

That is, I think, the ultimate problem here.

You're designing a mechanic to determine something that's been pre-determined.

Ben

06:13

Fundamentally, this system was created as a mechanic. Narratively, it offered very little.

So I'm feeling that unless that foundation is changed, the system won't offer much in that regard.

In Cthulhu dark how much does the story rely on that system?

BESW

A lot. Because of the way it interlinks with the plot structure the GM is encouraged the use, Insight scores escalate and then hit a plateau of dread at the same time the story reaches a slow simmer of dread. And because you narrate freaking out every time you gain Insight, the story actually shifts because someone's run out of the house into the night, or smashed an important clue, or just screamed loud enough to attract the ghost.

Then when someone hits 5 and starts deliberately destroying evidence and interrupting rituals it draws out the drama even more because it serves as "yes, but" function in the improvisation.

And if anybody actually reaches 6, well then. People are freaking out and going mad, dying, running away into the woods never to be seen again...

Jul 12 '14 at 12:10, by BESW

There were scenes like one PC wrestling the other to the ground and apparently trying to saw his arm off, screaming "I'm doing this to save your life!" in a language the subdued PC understood but nobody else did.

Ben

Right. In this case, this system is simply an overlay. If there is any story impact, it's just the outcome of who's who.

BESW

The whole point of the system is that you always have at least a minor success at what you're doing, but the unintended consequences and mental strain make it almost impossible to succeed.

Ben

Without it, the game is just "you went in, fought the boss, well done - game over".

MikeQ

@Ben Another implementation of an insanity mechanic was in the Neon Genesis Evangelion semi-intrigue game, using DH, that I had played in. Higher insanity meant immunities to various eldritch fears, plus the occasional mystical dream sequence or ominous vision, but it also meant the consequences in DH

It made sense, because the system aims to reflect the NGE pacing where the characters deal with progressively more disturbing and eldritch stuff. We didn't need it by the end, but having an insanity score in the 50-75 range was desirable

Ben

06:23

The campaign obviously has it's own narrative, of course.

MikeQ

06:38

@Ben Wait, which campaign are you referring to here?

Ben

My Diablo one

@BESW is saying that this system I'm building doesn't have much story influence, when comparing it to Cthulhu Dark.

MikeQ

It doesn't necessarily change the final outcome (where corruption is required to progress), but it at least changes how the story is told, no?

Ben

I don't really see it that way? I might be missing something (I do tend to get tunnel vision, so I miss the overall picture sometimes), but basically the idea is that it simply adds something more to the game. Choices and interactions have an effect on the way the game is played. The only narrative difference is the ending. Potentially

linksassin

@Ben I think we have a different understanding of "narrative difference". To me anything that causes a character to scene to play out differently is a "narrative difference". Narrative in this sense is the description of the scene and the roleplaying done. the story of the campaign. I think you are referring to something larger like a major change or something.

Ben

Probably. I'm feeling that if anything, it just puts a veil over the story. It doesn't change anything fundamentally - you're still playing the same story. The only difference is that you perhaps view it differently - choices and interactions have a different impact now, better think about how I play

@BESW "There's this game called Legend of Ocarina, Zelda of Time" [Genuine mistake] lololololol

BESW

06:50

I've heard good things about this Ocarina of Zelda.

linksassin

Time of Heroes is my favourite Link to the Zelda game

trogdor

what about the Adventures of Red Horse that happens to carry Link?

that's my favorite

Ben

Zelda of Time, Legend of Ocarinas got a bit repetitive

trogdor

I didn't personally like 20million moon masks and annoying mask kid

BESW

> Bloodborne, a game about injecting yourself with increasing amounts of dangerous liquid

I didn't know the Souls series was in continuity with Bioshock.

trogdor

06:57

that one is

Bloodborne,.... I feel like that was one of the best parts about it

Ben

@BESW Is the bottle dirty? Or is that the actual liquid... we don't tell... you just have to guess... SURPRISE IT WAS BOTH

trogdor

it took a DS mechanic and turned it into troubling lore

V2Blast

@Ben oh my

Ben

@BESW [loud clearing of throat] BB is not DS

trogdor

@Ben it's made by the same studio and has very similar mechanics though

Ben

06:59

I get weird about the things that trigger me lol

trogdor

I feel like this undead horse gets beaten too much

@Ben that's fair so do I

BESW

@Ben So Bloodborne is in continuity with Bioshock but Bloodborne is not in continuity with Dark Souls. Don't at me.

trogdor

or in this case this horse with a troubling number of legs and arms (yes human arms)

(still horse legs though, and a huge sword)

Ben

Like my friend created a specific situational video of how to fight a boss in Sekiro based on the exact builds me and my frond were using to show that the game is not reliant on anything other than the fundamentals (aww). But the game's base language is Japanese, and he had it in English. This upset me a lot hahaha

I admit that my response comes across as obnoxious and accusatory. For that I apologise. @BESW

My intention, as hopefully explained by the "hand-wavey" and joke follow ups were to express that the mention was to show that it was unimportant. The @ was simply to respond to the message, not you explicitly

linksassin

07:21

Is it just me or does this homebrew question make no sense? rpg.stackexchange.com/q/144744/48759

I can't understand half the abilities they are asking about the balance for.

Someone_Evil

@linksassin Yes, it's from (based on info in their other Q) someone who has never actually played.. (no a bad thing fundamentally, but it shows)

trogdor

@BESW I'm only 20 minutes in but this is great

kviiri

Yes, I think it falls under the usual pattern of being hasty to homebrew...

linksassin

I feel like it needs a significant re-write before it can even be assessed for balance.

Edits have fundamentally changed the question 2-3 times. I think it should be closed and edited until it is asking a reasonable question before reopening.

trogdor

(and I am glad he is also addressing how the design philosophy of some of these games can seriously turn some people off of them too)

Miniman

08:32

@Ben There are a lot of arguments for BB and DS sharing continuity, though.

kviiri

09:03

Yesterday, we had almost tee-shirt temperatures. Today, we expect about 20 cm of snow

(of course any snow'll be highly temporary at this time of the year but still)

Someone_Evil

@kviiri Ah... Spring!

kviiri

Mar 25 at 14:33, by kviiri

Mar 25 at 14:33, by kviiri

Translation: "It is Spring! \ Well what the..."

V2Blast

09:47

just finished the first episode of Warrior.
Great start to the series. Solid fight choreography, great music, interesting story. And I love the way they showed the transition from Chinese to English :)

Can't wait to see more!

(fair warning, there's quite a bit of nudity - I imagine it's frontloading that in the hopes of drawing viewers a la Black Sails)

kviiri

@V2Blast Full-frontal loading

trogdor

10:07

@kviiri thank you for making the pun so I don't have to touch this one XD

kviiri

@trogdor The pleasure, I assure you, was all mine

trogdor

lol

V2Blast

@kviiri ayyyyyyy

goodguy5

12:07

the "return of the lazy dm" video series:

http://slyflourish.com/rotldm_videos.html

note to self across devices (work firewall)

1. Summary of the Eight Steps of D&D Prep from Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master

►

The Oracle

12:41

1

Q: Partially answered second question in old question causing dupe flagging in new question

I flagged What passive scores exist? as a duplicate of Which skills can be used passively? based on the titles. However it was pointed out that the primary question of the new Q&A was only a second question of the older one, and was only partially addressed by the answer on the old Q&A. What's t...

Rubiksmoose

13:11

Morning all!

Someone_Evil

Good afternoon!

Rubiksmoose

:)

How's it going?

Someone_Evil

Mostly fine, my headset has decided that it's charging cable is not to be trusted, which is annoying..

goodguy5

bluetooth?

Someone_Evil

yup. been very nice up until now

Rubiksmoose

13:22

:-/ that is irritating to say the least

Someone_Evil

They can only be charged only when laid down in a specific orientation, and they along with windows get wierd when they run out/low on power

Rubiksmoose

I had a phone that did this towards the end of its life. It was the worst.

goodguy5

I recently had to replace mine after like 8 years

Rubiksmoose

oh wow. that's a long time to have a phone!

Someone_Evil

I'm on a similar streak with my own

Rubiksmoose

13:30

And here I thought keeping my Pixel for 3? 4? years was good lol

GcL

@Rubiksmoose I also still enjoy my Pixel. The lack of bloatware... was refreshing.

Someone_Evil

Hm.. on a slightly related note: the original iPhone becomes 12 years old in June.

GcL

Dispel Advertisement

Rubiksmoose

@GcL like the anti-Samsung phone. I feel the same way.

@Someone_Evil woooooow.

Someone_Evil

@GcL An advantage of using a phone with Android 2.4 is they basically hadn't figured out they could put bloatware on them yet

Rubiksmoose

13:35

2.4?!?! Dear gods.

Gingerbread?

GcL

Don't walk near a malicious access point running an old OS.

Rubiksmoose

heck I'd be afraid to visit non-malicious sites almost at that point lol

Someone_Evil

Oh, sorry 2.3.4, I missremembered

@GcL Don't worry, Wifi is so slow I never use it anyway

GcL

@Someone_Evil It doesn't have to be on.

At least not in the way you're thinking.

Rubiksmoose

8 years ago I think I was on a Galaxy Nexus.

2.3.4 was released in 2011 lol

So that phone would probably be at least that old

Someone_Evil

13:44

@Rubiksmoose Told you, about a 8 years streak

Rubiksmoose

Yeah that is mighty impressive

And a little terrifying from an IT standpoint lol

Someone_Evil

Asking out of genuine ignorance: Are there any harms it can reasonably do (beyond access the info on the device, of which there is little to none)?

(I guess there is probably some stack somewhere that I should be asking this/ where this is already asked but here we are..)

GcL

@Someone_Evil Really depends on what someone is looking to do. If it's someone in a library just listening to control frame so they can use multilateralization to make a maurader's map of the stacks... no. Probably no problem at all.

@Someone_Evil If it's a more pernicious jerk that is going to exploit a flaw in the OS for giggles... like advertising so many networks that it fills up a bunch of memory on the device and eventually makes it shut down... well, that's just annoying.

@Someone_Evil Something more targeted at older lower cost devices that might be running old OS's or constituent parts of them where it's just not cost effective for the manufacturer to upgrade... well, maybe there's some evil jerk that hijacks those to do abuse telelphony networks to DoS or some other nefarious end..

The probability decline rapidly outside of major population centers. The probability of the first is basically nil unless you happen to walk by a very specific library in the midwest.

Long story short: devils and demons live in cities not in remote dungeons and caverns.

Someone_Evil

14:06

@GcL Up until I decide to cross the Atlantic I can feel safe around libraries then?

GcL

@Someone_Evil I dunno. All the Germans I know are fiendishly clever and also enjoy harmless technological hi-jinks and proofs of concept. So maybe stay away from wherever they are these days.

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose I'm always amused when questions hover at 4 vtc

Someone_Evil

@GcL Duly noted.

Hot RPG Questions

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Q: Is this homebrew feat, Beast of Burden, balanced?

I'm working on a homebrew feat for a player with a specific agrarian background. I developed the following feat based on Squat Nimbleness racial feat from XGtE. Is this feat balanced as compared to the other feats? Beast of Burden Prerequisite: Hooves (Minotaurs, Centaurs, Tiefling v...

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Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 heh, me too.

doppelgreener

14:53

I just found out Stack Overflow's Ask Question Wizard is live as of 16 days ago:

2

470

Q: The Ask Question Wizard is Live!

I'm really happy to announce that the Ask Question Wizard is now live on Stack Overflow! This is the end of a long arc of experiments that have been happening for over a year to provide structured guidance to newcomers when asking a question, and I'm so excited for everyone in the community to gi...

discussion featured ask-question-wizard announcement

This is something that could be exported to other sites, because of the code base re-unification during the redesigns.

Yuuki

Completely off-tangent Pokemon fact: Magneton is 10 times heavier than Magnemite despite being three Magnemites.

kviiri

@Yuuki I love this

doppelgreener

@Yuuki that's pretty wild

goodguy5

@Yuuki I did actually know that.... I think from pokemon snap, actually

kviiri

@doppelgreener A wild pokemon appears!

Rubiksmoose

15:07

@doppelgreener oooooooooo

kviiri

The snow never came :( just boring old normal rain

Hot RPG Questions

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Q: What are the advantages and disadvantages of running one shots compared to campaigns?

I know one shots are shorter and only last one session (hence the name) compared to a campaign where you play through an ongoing story. But besides that, what are the advantages and disadvantages of running one shots compared to campaigns? For now at least, I don't see any reason for playing a o...

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4

Q: Wild Shape Centaur Into a Giant Elk: do their Charges stack?

The Centaur player race (GGtR) has a "Charge" feature: If moving 30', the Centaur can attack against the target with its hooves as a Bonus Action. The Giant Elk beast has a similar "Charge" feature: If moving 20', the Giant Elk does extra damage and might knock its target Prone. If a Druid Cent...

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David Coffron

I just earned the feat tag badge (bronze), could've sworn I answered enough questions about feats long before now

GcL

@DavidCoffron Maybe the system just wanted to feat-ure you're shining accomplishments.

David Coffron

@Yuuki They seem to grow too (as Magneton is about 3 times the height despite the orientation of the Magnemite not being totem-pole stacked). That could account for the weight increase... maybe

Rubiksmoose

15:20

@goodguy5 XD (wrt your comment in the other chat)

goodguy5

;)

@Rubiksmoose I was actually super confused for a second, because you happened to ping me the exact moment I closed that chat tab.

Rubiksmoose

nailed it

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron You can only gain feats every third level.

David Coffron

@Yuuki So I'm level 3 then?

goodguy5

@Yuuki without more information about the edition, I'm going to have to downvote

Rubiksmoose

15:24

75

A: The Ask Question Wizard is Live!

bug The wizard shakes violently when loaded in Internet Explorer 11. This makes the wizard completely unusable in that browser and can cause accessibility issues with users with photosensitive epilepsy. I've captured an animated GIF of the issue, but it's in spoiler markup because epilepsy warn...

Yuuki

@goodguy5 Information: the edition where you only gain feats every third level.

David Coffron

@Yuuki I don't even know if any edition does that... (maybe because my edition knowledge is heavily sparse)

@Yuuki Apparently that's 3.5e

goodguy5

3.5 and I think 3rd edition
Pathfinder is every 2
5e is every 4 (ish) class levels

David Coffron

That's what it is, I always confuse 3.5e and Pathfinder (thought they were both every 2)

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron 3.5e has the caveat that you get feats at level 1 and 3 and then every third level.

That's why I didn't outright say 3.5e because there's a small exception.

goodguy5

15:30

humans and fighters get bonus feats, which makes level 1 human fighters feel really featy in 3.5/pf

Yuuki

Yeah, the fact that humans get a bonus feat is why race balance was always pretty messed up in 3.5e/Pathfinder.

Variant humans are still really strong in 5e, IIRC.

But more power in class abilities rather than feats means it's less of an issue than it was.

You lived and died on your feat choices (and equipment) if you were a martial in 3.5e or Pathfinder. Especially Pathfinder.

David Coffron

@Yuuki So you could say you get a feat every 3^n and 3^n +- 3 levels except 4

@Yuuki Kind of. The biggest thing about variant humans is that, because point buy is capped at 15, +1 is usually as good as +2 so the big weakness in variant humans (their very sparse ability score increases) is a very small weakness in practice. And some feats are really good

@Yuuki That is why I never chose to learn Pathfinder. I didn't have the opportunity to join a group that didn't have exceptional knowledge already, and didn't want to just steal character builds, so I was nervous that my character's feat decisions would make him relatively useless.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron oh man, the feat traps and analysis paralysis were super real in PF

goodguy5

ooof.

I just looked at a marker and thought it said "heil hitler" and was really upset until I realized that it said "hi liter"

WHO MAKES THE CASE OF A HILIGHTER BLACK?!

Rubiksmoose

15:45

oh man that's a bad misreading lol

goodguy5

at least I didn't say anything outloud, just you strangers on the internet

GcL

Very strange-ers

GcL

16:21

Can someone pass my question to @Xirema when he comes around if I'm not here. rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/144802/…

Xirema

@GcL Sup.

GcL

Speak of the ~~devil~~ statistician

Xirema

I prefer the term Math Elemental.

Rubiksmoose

Statistician would actually probably be a really appealing profession for a devil lol

GcL

I started to take a stab at it in R. I have an intern coming in, so I'll be working with them the rest of the day.

@Rubiksmoose Stats and psychology. I can't tell you want one man will do, but I can manipulate what 1,000 will do.

Rubiksmoose

16:27

XD

Yuuki

@Rubiksmoose Nah, poaching. The devil's in the de-tails.

David Coffron

16:56

@GcL Or you can manipulate what 1,000 "say" they do (according to how you conduct the study)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer (247): What are the advantages and disadvantages of running one shots compared to campaigns? by Jamar Maleek on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)

Someone_Evil

@SmokeDetector Well, thats the funniest spam message I've seen in a while

goodguy5

17:18

that fighter combinations one is a doozy

Someone_Evil

@goodguy5 The opposite question of how many background-race-subclass options are available is probably a much more interesting (admittedly easier to calculate) question for the broader debate in question.

goodguy5

hrm....

how many unique characters can I play?

to which my answer is "how many unique characters can you imagine?"

Someone_Evil

well, not quite. The Sailor Elf Transmutation Wizard and the Soldier Elf Transmutation Wizard are probably gonna be quite similar still, but it's gonna give you a much more interesting (/relevant) answer

goodguy5

@Someone_Evil I read that for about 30 seconds, just trying to figure out if "Sailor Elf" was a play on "Sailor Moon"

but basically comes down to some combination of:

shooty-smacky-magiky
brave-cowardly-indifferent
kind-mean-indifferent
do the ends justify the means or not
choose two stats of SDCIWC

the rest is social inflection

David Coffron

17:35

I'm interested in all edition, but the fourth edition — C.G.Hellishscythe 17 mins ago

...

Someone_Evil

Counting different backgrounds and suggested characteristics (not Specialities etc) gives some 31k which is a bit to high to be useful

@DavidCoffron Is the Lore of 4e notably different from the others, thought it only were the mechanics?

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron Are you one of them 4th editionauts?

David Coffron

@Someone_Evil Not in the least. That's why I don't understand their limiter

@goodguy5 I started D&D in 4e, but haven't played it since the D&D Next playtest

goodguy5

oh! what an exciting experience!

starting on 4e must feel really good; not having that emotional bagged of editions past

Someone_Evil

They might have picked up on 4e being very different and therefore doesn't want to include it

David Coffron

17:40

@Someone_Evil I suppose that is fair

Someone_Evil

They are also asking something that (I feel) is very unlikely to have an answer in Lore, as its more a "if you want to tell a story with that, you make something up for it"

David Coffron

@Someone_Evil The older editions did talk a bit more about the mating process of dragons from what I've heard, so it might. I just don't have the expertise(nor the wherewithal to read through my dad's old books) to give an answer myself

Xirema

@goodguy5 Whatever you do, don't try to have that conversation with a 3.5 proselytizer.

> "3.5 has way more variety than 5e! Can you play a crystal golem that sucks the life force from your enemies in 5e? Because you can with <obscure_3.5_sourcebook>! Therefore, 5e has no variety!"

goodguy5

ugh

Someone_Evil

Variety has a cost to quality

Hot RPG Questions

17:49

2

Q: Are objects structures and/or vice versa?

An interesting issue came up in a game we were playing recently: Our party was on an airship and attacked by flying young dragons. My sorcerer cast a spell that triggered a wild magic surge and rolled a self-centered fireball (at 20,000 feet, whee!). Here's the issue. Fireball says: The fire...

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Xirema

@Someone_Evil The bigger thing, I think, is that at some level, if your 1001 "unique, varied classes" all still boil down to "make a [Melee/Ranged] attack roll, roll for damage", then you haven't actually invented 1001 unique, varied classes. You've just written 1001 different flavor profiles for the game.

And I'm not disparaging the 3.5 writers, or whomever wrote those obscure sourcebooks: flavor is good.

But if you're going to make claims about how each class is "sooo different and unique", at least back it up with the mechanical impact, not the novelty of the premise.

Flavor text is cheap. It doesn't require balancing, it doesn't need playtesting, all you need to do is write whatever you want, and try not to make it racist.

Game mechanics are hard. You design a bad mechanic, it'll either go unused or require every single DM to ignore the RAW in favor of some table-specific variant.

Someone_Evil

Just to clarify; you are not disagreeing with me, right?

Xirema

18:12

@Someone_Evil I don't believe I am.

David Coffron

@Xirema The answer is yes you can. You play an Earth Genasi with crystals as a major feature of its anatomy, and run a warlock, wizard, or death cleric. Many necrotic spells are life-force-sucking effects.

Xirema

Have just had some frustrating conversations along these lines in the not-that-long-ago past, and am venting.

@DavidCoffron My first thought was playing a Moon Druid that refuses to shapeshift into anything other than an Earth Elemental, but I couldn't figure out the life drain part.

Someone_Evil

@DavidCoffron Genasi are elementals rather than golems, but thats probably ignorable (a resonable flavour-shift)

David Coffron

@Xirema Then the 3.5e proselytizer says "you can only be an Earth Elemental for 5 hours out of the day though"

Idk. I just feel like many options present in 3.5e can be provided in 5e with some flavor changes (not all of them, but many)

chill touch could easily be a life-sucking cantrip.

I mean what else does "assail it with the chill of the grave" mean

@Someone_Evil If you really want a golem, you would need to play a Warforged (the only constructed race in 5e thus far). The base descriptions of warforged is just "Warforged are formed from a blend of organic and inorganic materials." ...so in theory, the inorganic material can be crystals instead of metal

It just says "Armored plates form a protective outer shell and reinforce joints." Nothing specifies the material for the plates

You even have:

> Beyond these common elements of warforged design, the precise materials and build of a warforged vary based on the purpose for which it was designed.

@Xirema The main reason I suggested warlock, wizard, and death domain cleric is for the vampiric touch spell, which is the most fitting

But there are a number of other spells that fit the bill

I particularly like Fiend Warlock as you have Dark Ones Blessing, which kind of lets you bolster yourself with the life force of enemies you slay:

> Starting at 1st level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1).

Xirema

@DavidCoffron I prefer the Enervation Spell, but either works. (I hope that link is correct, I can't view dndbeyond to verify...)

David Coffron

18:24

@Xirema That's very fitting as a higher level option (vampiric touch is 3rd level so it comes online a bit faster)

So yeah, I'd either do an Earth Genasi or Warforged Warlock of The Fiend (probably with Pact of the Tome for some flavorful non-warlock cantrips and rituals)

Xirema

I realized recently that a Shadow Sorcerer (Hounds to confer disadvantage on saving throws) can twin out Enervation to basically guarantee 8d8 damage and 4d8 healing per round for 10 rounds. Just gotta manage those concentration checks.

David Coffron

@Xirema If you have two enemies that warrant such a high level spell slot (which happens, but not all that often)

Xirema

@DavidCoffron Fair. I could imagine a boss fight though where the DM (wisely) splits up "boss" duties across multiple creatures.

David Coffron

@Xirema Honestly, those fights are more memorable than the party vs 1

Hot RPG Questions

18:48

9

Q: What happens when a metallic dragon and a chromatic dragon mate?

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KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener heh, nice call. I was guessing on that one.

Rubiksmoose

huh I had a comment on that answer. I wonder why it got removed...

Or at least I swear I wrote one.

goodguy5

19:05

@Rubiksmoose there's a comment right now

oh, you just wrote it

Rubiksmoose

yeah I just made a new one. The old one was of limited value anyways (rereading the answer I think it might actually have been moot).

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose heh, we see once again the ephemeralness inherent in the comment system! 8^D

Rubiksmoose

I'm being oppressed!

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Either that, or you are being ephemerated! 8^o

goodguy5

a removed comment is, in fact, a super downvote

Rubiksmoose

19:08

Well that sounds much better. But can I complain about it loudly?

;)

goodguy5

yes, but only one and a half times

Rubiksmoose

excellent. well I'll make full use of it then

That being said I'm not sure that I agree that 5e lacks meaningful level-up choices (wrt my comment)

Certainly it very much depends on what you consider to be meaningful.

goodguy5

^

Rubiksmoose

But I do think it takes a very aggressively narrow definition to say that no choices in character production in 5e are meaningful regardless.

goodguy5

I was just about to say that no choices are meaningful in the sense that most characters/parties can still accomplish whatever the goal is.

And there aren't as many traps and the traps aren't as severe.

Rubiksmoose

19:12

hmmmm

certainly the latter is true, but I wonder if making all choices better make them less meaningful?

goodguy5

well.... only if some choices are definitively better in most or all situations

Rubiksmoose

For example from an RP standpoing that is good news since you can make a character fitting your character vision without worrying too much that you'll be a party laibility.

goodguy5

"better" choices means choices that have to be chosen.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 I would use the term "mechanically superior" for that definition

Rubiksmoose

Yeah I should have said "equal" not "better" per se.

David Coffron

19:15

(if I was trying to be precise)

Rubiksmoose

5e's options are mechanically almost all viable. which is way more than PF can say. Certainly some are better than others still, but I think the range is much less.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Agreed. And with some finesse on the part of the GM, even the weaker options can be made to feel important to the party and the story (to keep balance in party impact)

Rubiksmoose

[nods]

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose pathfinder was still streets ahead of 3.5

David Coffron

But that's just part of the video-game training where people assume that more is better, when I personally prefer whatever option makes the story-telling more fun for the group

Rubiksmoose

19:18

@goodguy5 that's what I've heard lol

goodguy5

Well... until it started suffering from serious splat-bloat

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron agreed. IDK it just bugs me the claim that there are no meaningful choices in 5e.

which was pretty much a self-serving claim made by that answer anyways, so maybe that is what bothers me so much about it.

goodguy5

It all depends on what one finds meaningful.

Rubiksmoose

Or maybe that it borders on One True Wayism to me.

goodguy5

fair

David Coffron

19:19

@Rubiksmoose You missed a conversation about just that not too long ago.

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron oh hey that was indeed not long ago!

thanks for the link!

David Coffron

Where we talked about how you can easily emulate many options from past, more "option-heavy" editions with a bit of reflavoring or just some understanding of the depth of options that are available

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 sure but I'm not sure I can construct any fair definition of "meaningful" that would make that statement universally true.

goodguy5

I think that "meaningful" has too much personal attachment to it.

"impactful" seems closer....

Rubiksmoose

Certainly I've felt much more connected to character choices made in other systems (Masks)

Xirema

19:22

@SmokeDetector ..... The ~~fuuuuuuu~~ fornicate† is going on in that post? Have the spambots gotten self-aware enough to co-opt Absurdism???

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Impactful how though? What is it impacting? I think it is hard to say that your mechanical choices don't impact your character mechanically for example.

@Xirema hahaha there was one the other day selling vampirism

I thought that was pretty great

No daylight downsides either!

Delioth

We talking about that "lack of customization options in 5e" question?

Rubiksmoose

@Delioth mhm

I was specifically talking about the last sentence of Is there really a lack of character customisation options when levelling up?

(which used to end in an undeclared self-promotion, but they fixed it)

Xirema

I've been trying to think about how to approach the central premise of that question.

Delioth

Eh, I can't say I disagree with the words the question says. But I must disagree with the motive behind it

David Coffron

19:25

@Delioth I just feel like whatever limit you think is there can be fixed with some deeper understanding of the rules, and some reflavoring. If not, homebrew is always an option (one that is directly supported by the rulebooks)

Delioth

When it really comes down to it, as far as concrete mechanical choices are concerned, there aren't many in 5e

Rubiksmoose

@Xirema yeah it is a tough one.

Delioth

That does not mean it limits actual character customization though

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast I have a question about an answer of yours

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/76790/34716

has a quote block:

> Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn’t tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.

Where is that from? I can't find it and want to post a question

Xirema

@Delioth Well, even that depends on where you're looking. It's fair, IMO, to say that every single spell a Wizard, Warlock, etc. learns constitutes a pretty meaningful character advancement choice.

Delioth

19:29

It might be worthwhile to note that rules in 5e are very intentional about what they say and what they don't say? And that while choices are few and far between, the choices you do make on the character sheet are super impactful compared to some other editions?

Xirema

> Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends.

Generally, evil alignments are for villains and monsters.

A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.

— Alignment in the Multiverse, Player's Handbook, pg. 122

goodguy5

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

phb. I was looking in dmg and mm
thanks!

Delioth

Wait so what happens when a Devil "falls" towards LG?

Xirema

^ Is why I've been trying to get into a good habit of rigorously citing all the quotes I post here. ^_^

Delioth

Do they become a Celestial?

Rubiksmoose

19:31

@Delioth I mean even comparing a very limited thing (eg feats) I would say 5e choices are much more meaningful than eg PF. In PF you get like 300 feats and in 5e you get less than 10?

@Xirema I need to get much better at this as well

Delioth

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, definitely. I mean, in 5e when you choose your Great Weapon Master feat, it changes how your character functions on a fundamental level. To get that kind of fundamental change in Pathfinder you need at least 3 feats

goodguy5

51

Q: What happens to a Devil when its alignment is forcibly changed?

According to PHB 122, in the section entitled Alignment in the Multiverse, for most creatures, "alignment is a moral choice." Myth says good-aligned gods created the races that are free to choose to be evil (they have free will), while evil-aligned gods created the races that are very inclined to...

dnd-5e monsters alignment

Delioth

Hell, Great Weapon Master on its own has the same effects as at least 2 feats in Pathfinder (Cleave Through + Power Attack)

Even out of the context of other choices and several prerequisites to Cleave Through

Rubiksmoose

ugh PF prereqs were a real hastle

Delioth

I'm a big fan of pathfinder 2e (that's currently still pre-release)

goodguy5

19:35

pf feats in general were a hassle.

Though I did like making a luchador

Rubiksmoose

I've certainly heard some good things. I think a lot of it from you.

Delioth

Prereqs are still around and all over the place, but at least they're in pretty defined categories (and some playtest changes were even relaxing them)

David Coffron

@Delioth I'm just not sure it offers anything I can't get from 5e (something I'm already versed in). Could be ignorance, but no one I've spoke to has convinced me to try it (not for lack of attempts)

Delioth

Yeah, I've finally gotten an actual group together to run some

goodguy5

one of my favorite characters was a monk luchador.

I managed to suplex a giant scorpion

Delioth

19:37

It's been easy on the new-to-RPG-players and fun for veterans and newbies alike

Xirema

So if I were to make an argument about 5e having a lack of advancement choices, I'd probably point to these classes:

-Cleric
-Druid
-Paladin
-Rogue

With honorable mentions to Fighter, Barbarian, and Monk in the observation that /some/ of their subclasses have less going on for them than others coughcoughchampioncoughcough.

Delioth

2e gives a ton of flexibility in that there are a TON of choices you get to make, and it's the sum of those choices that really defines who your character is

goodguy5

@Xirema hey hey hey, don't throw shade at Mr. Fighter McFighterson

Xirema

For the former 3, they don't choose spells at each level up, but instead at each long rest, meaning a single-classed version of these classes make their last real choices at the moment they decide their subclass type.

Rubiksmoose

@Xirema now that is a very interesting point...

Xirema

19:38

Rogues only have one subclass that makes real choices at level up, and that's the Arcane Trickster being a memorized spellcaster.

Delioth

I mean, by level 5 I think you get... like 7 feats? Give or take. Plus 2-5 skill proficiency bumps

Should be roughly 3 class feats, 2 ancestry feats, 1 general feat, and 2 skill feats

David Coffron

@Delioth I've heard all of this, but I don't understand the appeal (to me personally). Choosing a bunch of options can be exciting in the pre-game and tween-session bits, but it doesn't affect gameplay in a positive way imo.

Delioth

Oh and 4 ability score boosts (where a boost is +2 to one stat, or +1 if the stat is 18+, and you can't use two boosts on one stat at the same time)

The many choices is also supplemented by the 3-action system

David Coffron

I'd rather use other hobbies to fill my crunch-excitement. (like doing puzzles and fun optimization problems in video games)

Delioth

Which is super important

Xirema

19:41

Wizards are sort of special in this comparison: they are the middle ground between the Cleric/Druid "we can prepare whatever spells we want" paradigm and the Sorcerer/Warlock "we have to choose which spells we want at level up".

Delioth

And most of the choices really aren't that crunchy

David Coffron

@Delioth Even that Ability Score boost system already feels crunchy to me. There are so many optimization considerations there.

Delioth

It's not really crunchy though

David Coffron

@Delioth Figuring out what is optimal is

Delioth

You get the boosts in groups of 4 at every 5th level

David Coffron

19:43

If I want to do that much crunch, I want to feel the difference (like I do in video games). I don't see how the difference could be felt much in a role-playing game.

Delioth

So at level 1 you might be 18/14/14/12/12/10, at level 5 you get the 4 booosts and go to 19/16/16/12/12/12

It's really closer to "pick two scores that don't increase"

Xirema

@Delioth I'm torn between feeling 5th edition needed more items like Waterdeep's Oversized Longbow, and fearing that if there were too many items like that, you'd create more character advancement traps.

> This unique weapon can be used only by a Medium or larger creature that has a Strength of 18 or higher. The bow shoots oversized arrows that deal piercing damage equal to 2d6 + the wielder's Strength modifier.

—Oversized Longbow, Waterdeep: Dragon's Heist, pg. 201

Delioth

Also, feat choice in 2e is pretty solid - they're not just numerical boosts to things you already to (+1 to attack, Advantage in Z situation), they're either interesting enhancements (if you miss, don't count this attack against your multiple attack penalty)

Or they're new kinds of actions that either open up actually new things or let you combine actions for specific uses for better economy (as 2 actions, Stride twice and Strike)

goodguy5

@Xirema that's what homebrew is for, imo

Delioth

Skill Feats are almost entirely new uses for a skill, or neat enhancements otherwise (instead of taking 10 minutes to attempt to identify a magic item, it takes 1 minute)

goodguy5

19:48

^nice

Delioth

Ancestry and General feats are cool, but are generally there for proficiency bumps or simple utility things

Also class feats are used for multiclassing

And Archetypes, Prestige "classes", and Multiclasses use the exact same "Dedication" system [which we're told in full release may include non-class-feat ways to advance]

It's really nice; the only complaint I've got from a GM perspective is that the 3-action system has taken getting used to by my players and they often forget to use their last action

And Power Attack is really strong at level 1

I just let them level up to level 4 last session but haven't had a chance to do anything with that (Moving's a pain and we don't even do it 'til Saturday)

goodguy5

(something probably exists)

I'd like to see a system emulate the old UFO: XCOM where you have a number of action points.

Everything takes AP. Attacking once. each 5 feet of movement. drawing/stowing etc.

Different action points for different weapon categories (light heavy etc)

Delioth

That's one of those things that fits WAY better into a vidya than a tabletop

2e gets a little closer than D&D or pf1e does (due to having 3 equal actions, 1 reaction, and possibly free actions on triggers)

1 attack=1 action, 5' step= 1 action; ~25 Stride= 1 action, draw/stow a weapon= 1 action

but differing action points for categories starts getting really, really crunchy for a table to do

KorvinStarmast

Ben, your back and forth with BESW, trog, and link gave me an idea for your end game that fits into D&D structures, and that keeps your corruption/madness/purity triangle energized even after the end game.
The suggestions you got on the corruption scheme itself I'll not touch, there was some good stuff there.

Your end game of "one becomes an NPC" need not be how you end the adventure. Here's a different idea, and it goes off the rails to where the PC's sit before any of us knows what's in store for Diablo II.

End game: The one with the most corruption when the BBEG is defeated ends up with that red sould gem in their head or orbiting around their head like an ioun stone. It is a sentient being, and It is Attuned To The Character. Only it can break attunement. The character has not become an NPC, but has now got some stuff to deal with as a consequence of their choices in play.

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