TRPG General Chat

linksassin

00:00

@CTWind Fair enough. I've never used that rule myself. My party tend to loot the body... for parts...

CTWind

dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#MonstersandDeath

Ben

00:13

It's my birthday!

trogdor

Grats

I was gonna post a gif but, my phone isn't having that _&$$$&& today

V2Blast

00:29

@Ben happy day of birth

Miniman

00:43

@Ben Happy birthday! It's weird how many people I know with birthdays somewhere in the 15-18 of March period.

trogdor

I know a lot of people with birthdays like, in September

Although I guess I don't really talk to all of them anymore

Miniman

@trogdor I mean, same here.

trogdor

But more than half my immediate family was born within the same 2 days in September

Plus a bunch of people I used to know before they moved

September man

No idea why

Makes it easier to remember though

nitsua60

01:47

@GreySage We can see a flag on our own content.

trogdor

That's,...... Not especially great?

nitsua60

@trogdor Probably. I suppose it's one of those "if we'd thought about it we wouldn't have designed it this way, but it's not worth time going back to fix it" things.

trogdor

@nitsua60 I mean, it's not like I think it needs to be hidden from the mod in question In literally every case but,... When it does that's a problem I guess?

To be fair though, overall bad behavior from a mod is supposed to be handled an entirely different way anyway

I guess

But I hang out here, where all the mods I see are cool

nitsua60

@trogdor It's just a unique (to my knowledge) crack in the pavement where if a mod were behaving badly it'd be very hard for someone to even see it.

trogdor

Yeah...

nitsua60

01:54

If I delete posts or edit things or whatever... that's easy for lots of people to see.

A bunch of other stuff goes onto a timeline that any mod can click into.

trogdor

But that's a definite issue, even if it's rare

nitsua60

But flag-handling... I'm not sure that I can easily dig up the last X flags that greener handled, for instance. It might need CM intervention.

trogdor

Yeah see right there

Though again

nitsua60

Check that. Turns out I can.

trogdor

Maybe it's best if that kind of thing is handled by a higher up?

Oh

Ok

Huh

nitsua60

01:56

I've just not yet had the reason to go poking around in that part of the "dashboard."

trogdor

That's fair

I wouldn't think you did have a reason to

nitsua60

I can dig through a timeline of every "moderation action" a moderator has taken.

That's good to know, though.

trogdor

It's you and greener mostly

SSD exists but is cool and I don't see em often anyway

I can't say much about any of the other mods though

To be fair

@nitsua60 yeah

It's not bad info to have

nitsua60

@trogdor In chat, sure. By the "moderation action" stats, SSD and greener and mxy each pull about 30% of the load, and I squeak out about 10%.

Just enough to earn the baseball cap =)

CTWind

FWIW, in the stackoverflow meta thread, one of the diamond mod's comments said something along the lines of 'you can stop flagging my comment now' prior to editing that bit away.

trogdor

01:59

@nitsua60 I can only really speak as a chatizen

I am extremely inactive on the main site

nitsua60

@CTWind Yeah... I read through that meta and was very disappointed.

trogdor

Possibly the most inactive person there who is even remotely active in chat

But I would definitely be surprised if I heard anything bad going on around here concerning mod behavior on the main site

nitsua60

We occasionally get an SO power user hit RPGSE and get pretty frustrated pretty fast. (TBH, we're definitely on the "strict" end of applying the practices of SE.) When I read a meta like that I have to remind myself "as repugnant as I find much of this, that's how this person might feel coming to RPG."

trogdor

People have complained about Mxy In The past but I think a lot of that might have been miscommunication and or especially anger over some of that Raw-vs-Rai stuff

nitsua60

@trogdor There are those who will say that's because overzealous moderation has driven away/quashed objection. I don't have an opinion on how much truth that holds for how many, though.

trogdor

02:03

@nitsua60 yeah I'm aware,... Some could hold that oppinion

To be fair,... This site has some,.... Issues

I don't think it's actually fair to blame the mods for that

It's not like you get to re-desighn stuff when you get elected in

nitsua60

I wouldn't even presume to know what to redesign =)

trogdor

Yeah and I wouldn't expect you to either really

nitsua60

I do hope to contribute to an environment, though, where if you (generic "you") want to redesign something, you feel comfortable speaking up =)

trogdor

I just mean, even if you did, and you weren't busy enough as it is

It's still not like you can

Mods is still people

And that can have a bad side too but it still has a good side

And it's definitely not to say my experience is at all the same as everyone else's, that's gonna vary hardcore from person to person

But every interaction I've had with a mod has been positive

Maybe a couple neutral ones too

But not many

My first ever post on the site SSD did a magical edit on my answer that made it look extremely professional rather than the grody run on ultra paragraphs I always use

XD

MikeQ

@trogdor Soylent greener is people!

trogdor

02:12

Lol

nitsua60

I think my first interaction with SSD was when I made an edit to a post (something small, like taking "DND5e" off the end of the title) and left a welcoming comment, got the comment "&%*($)^%& YOU!!!!!!!!!!" in response, and within a minute SSD had destroyed the user and left a comment "you don't get to treat people that way here. Goodbye."

MikeQ

And here I was, thinking all the mods were just highly advanced bots

nitsua60

It felt pretty good to be "protected" that way.

trogdor

@nitsua60 nice

It does suck though, that the sites so,... Built into a certain way of posting

You might notice I don't do a lot of posting

By me even saying I don't at the very least

And that's not even due to any bad experience

The pressure I feel to get a post in that golden circle of acceptance is definitely part (not all for sure but still) of why I don't generally bother

I can at least sympathize with new users who don't stick around, or even regulars who eventually give up on it

But I like this chat place so I'ma stick around till it dies

Whenever that might happen

Hopefully a long time from now

I cursed it your welcome :X

XD

MikeQ

While I have you here @nitsua60 @trogdor what's the plan for Saturday?

nitsua60

02:24

@MikeQ I'm traveling/out of town this weekend and won't be available. (cc: @KorvinStarmast @Shalvenay)

trogdor

I think I would still be up for something if our two remaining compatriots had interest in something secondary

Like GSS or whatever you might have for Uranium chef

MikeQ

I'm up for GSS. There seems to be some hesitation re: the competitive nature of Uranium Chef. I'm looking into ways to hack it into a more cooperative game.

trogdor

I'm sorry last time fell through for me on that count

@MikeQ ah yeah I could see the issue there

nitsua60

@Makoto Something you wouldn't be putting up with if the Mods had used an Answer for their response like they are supposed to, instead of using comments. ;) — Xirema 22 hours ago

@Xirema slow clap

trogdor

GSS is decidedly cooperative

nitsua60

02:34

(note to casual readers: that comment two messages back is from a different network site)

MikeQ

@trogdor There are some cooperative-ish parts in it, and I think I could frankenstein together a one-shot about a team vs team competition.

trogdor

@nitsua60 how dare XP

linksassin

@nitsua60 @Xirema comments in that thread made me desperately want to buy him a drink. Such great arguements

trogdor

@MikeQ that's fine too, if you feel comfortable running it

If not I'm more than happy to run that GSS scenario I already have experience running

MikeQ

That's probably the better option o_o

trogdor

02:45

Mk

I would be totally up to try Uranium Chef, it's Fate but it's still new to me and that's half the fun

But I bet dollars to donuts you can take some time to get more comfortable to run it and will get another chance to run it at a time when you have,... Done that

And meantime if there is interest in GSS I adore that game and would love to run it a second time

MikeQ

@trogdor So I've read the book, read some forums, and watched some gameplay recordings. I think I get the idea, but I'm still very fuzzy regarding how FATE is played.

trogdor

Honestly I still have trouble with Fate sometimes

It's not unreasonable to have trouble with it

It's going for such a specific feel that those of us coming out of almost exclusively DND could have trouble adjusting to

MikeQ

I'm not exclusively used to D&D, but I am mostly used to comparatively structured systems

e.g. There's still 9999+ different ways to play D&D, but if I took notes across multiple groups and DMs, I can probably figure out the underlying patterns and flow of the game

trogdor

That's fair

When my main group moved to Fate the majority of our experience was DND

Or really similar stuff

@BESW had done a few other systems but beyond that not much

MikeQ

with Fate/FATE I mostly understand the rules and mechanics, but I don't quite get the... unsure what to call it... dynamics? Techniques?

The game as played, in action, versus the game as written

trogdor

03:07

That's exactly the hang up to expect in my experience

Every group is likely to have different problems, but handling the Fate point economy and frequency of compels between players seem to be big ones in practice

V2Blast

03:54

I need to test out some other RPGs besides D&D 5e... but I generally don't feel the motivation to learn a new set of mechanics

trogdor

That's fair

Plus, you gotta invest time into doing that, and also you need at least a small group who also wants to try something new

It's not as easy as it sounds

linksassin

That was my experience as well. My group wanted to branch out after getting bored of the D&D system.

We tried Edge of Empire (good), Shadowrun (less good), Dice with Number (immature), and Dark Heresy (i wasn't playing) before eventually coming back to 5e

MikeQ

I know non-D&D systems. What sort of system or gameplay experience would you be looking for? @V2Blast @linksassin

linksassin

we decided that the mechanics were detracting from the story we wanted to tell and it was easier to switch to a system we all knew well and just house rule the bits we don't like

trogdor

@linksassin have you ever tried Fate?

linksassin

04:00

@MikeQ I'm waiting on my current campaign to end before trying something new. In too many games at the momemt. A couple of my players are starting a Cthulhu game. Fate, DW and Pathfinder 2E are all potential options for the next campaign though

trogdor

Of course it could be that it doesn't work for you but it might be worth a shot

The nice thing now is, it has a lot more sub systems and settings for different kinds of stories and world's now

MikeQ

@linksassin Ok, what kind of campaign or genre? For structure, much do you want to rely on written mechanics versus the human participants?

How do you want to balance the emphasis between character creation, progression, and in-game choices?

How much freedom do you want with houserules and homebrewing?

@linksassin Even if you don't know the answers right now, that's ok, just think about these questions when choosing a system.

trogdor

Yeah it's a lot to chew on honestly

MikeQ

I know. But I think it's better to consider the variables, rather than go by subjective recommendations of whether a system is "good" or "bad"

Shalvenay

yeah

trogdor

04:14

No that's definitely fair I just meant that answering all those questions can take time

MikeQ

Sure some systems are objectively worse than others, but for the most part, folks' experiences vary by group style and the system-narrative combination

trogdor

Not to mention you kinda want the group you are with to have similar answers on that stuff

Or at least be flexible enough for everyone to have a good time with the same thing

linksassin

05:09

@MikeQ Sorry, had to go into a meeting.

For me I enjoy traditional fantasy rpgs. D&D and pathfinder are the perfect genre

but 5e is too simplified with too few customisation options. And pathfinder is too complex for some of my players

I'm hoping PF2 will be the right balance but am willing to try others.

One of the groups I play in likes cyberpunk type worlds. Hence why we tried shadowrun

but frankly the system is terrible. So many dice and silly mechanics. A simple combat could last multiple 6 hours session. so we got sick of that pretty quick

I actually really like the Edge of the Empire system, but we played to too high a level and it becomes very unbalenced

My next campaign that I run will be a political fantasy world where the players are a group of covert operatives for one of the lords. It's kind of a prequel to the current campaign.

MikeQ

@linksassin Hm... I'd recommend a second look at Dungeon World

linksassin

@MikeQ How's the character creation?

My major gripe with 5e is the lack of flexibility

MikeQ

Creation is relatively simple to start, and there is more customization as the characters advance.

linksassin

Technically you can make whatever concept you like but some options are just sub-par or not available

Things like, my barbarian player in pathfinder wanted to be dumb but with street smarts. In 5e that's pretty hard to balance because she didn't want particularly high wisdom. In pathfinder we make it work but investing ranks in to the particular skill.

5e's your bad or your great at things kinda bugs me. I'd like it to be more of a scale of ability.

MikeQ

@linksassin Yes, although that's due to relying on the static game mechanics rather than roleplay or flavor.

linksassin

05:22

@MikeQ true to an extent. I like to make them have at least one roll for every major thing they do. Makes stats actually mean something

trogdor

@MikeQ Well that's one of the things I really don't like about DND though

It's got no mechanics for interpersonal skills for example

linksassin

one of the games I play in went too far the other way and it meant that those that invested in charisma basically lost out because you could just RP it anyway with low stats

MikeQ

@linksassin Ah. I'm a bit of the opposite style - I try to reward choices, and de-emphasize random rolls.

linksassin

An improved social mechanic would be good

@MikeQ I'm not saying I don't do that. But I like to balance it in the middle.

trogdor

There are systems with better social mechanics for sure

linksassin

05:24

Your stats matter, but so does how you to choose to play

trogdor

It just depends what else you want to be mixed in

MikeQ

Oh definitely. D&D's social mechanics are a watery sauce atop a thick, well-developed cut of wargame steak.

5

trogdor

Yep

And to be fair, I could go for wargame sometimes

MikeQ

In theory I'd like to reward smart character building, but the system mechanics sort of do that already

trogdor

But the fact that DND pretends it's anything else is a turn off

MikeQ

05:26

I've found it's hard to reward X without punishing (not X) as a byproduct

linksassin

I'd love a system that did both well. It's nice to be able to play both a tense political game and then rush into a battle when negotiations go south

trogdor

Yeah

MikeQ

Hmm. I don't know much about social mechanics in Dungeon World.

It's an apocalypse engine game so they're probably okay?

trogdor

Unfortunately I don't know of any systems that really dig into both those things the way I would like

linksassin

We use 5e because it's simple enough to allow it to work. Though not developed enough to dictate a way to play.

trogdor

05:27

At least that we have played in my group

V2Blast

@MikeQ Nothing in particular, just figured I'd branch out and try other things :)

MikeQ

Alternatively @linksassin if you're expecting many different types of scenarios in your campaign, then perhaps Fate could work because the mechanics are flexible. Just note you can't rely on the mechanics to dictate balance.

i.e. Unlike D&Dish games, Fate doesn't have the mechanics as a safety net

Which has its pros and cons

trogdor

Maybe Eclipse Phase would do what I want but my group doesn't really seem interested in it

Partly it also seems ridiculously over complex

To be fair

Yeah Fates main strength is definitely flexibility

linksassin

I'll give fate and DW a look and see what my players are interested in. Though it's probably a while away since they are only at level 5 of a level 20 campaign that started 2 years ago

progress is slow sometimes (all the time)

trogdor

But yeah it doesn't have "here is the definite way you do this one thing you want" that DND has

That being said

I've been able to do things in Fate I never found a way to do in DND

linksassin

05:34

@trogdor Example?

trogdor

Let's see

What example is gonna work best for explaining this

Ok maybe I'll use more than one if it doesn't stick

MikeQ

Depending on how the Fate game's set up, it doesn't restrict players to any sort of preset progression. Instead they write their characters from scratch, and continuously decide if and how their characters develop.

trogdor

One of my favorite characters was a scientist who turned himself sort of into a swamp thing

He had skills in being able to come up with gadgets or fix problems with science, but could also do plant things and warp his body into shapes he needed and such

Plus, while playing him I got to play a villain who had temporarily gotten rid of him to take his place and spy on the party

In DND this would have been a problem for the party to fix

And everyone else would probably have to be in the dark about it

MikeQ

@linksassin Fate takes a very different approach to TTRPGs. The mechanics exist to move the story in certain directions, rather than define or quantify how certain actions work in specific circumstances.

trogdor

In Fate, all of us knew what was going on and could collaborate to keep it going as long as we were all amused by it

It was an experience which DND would have been a total hindrance of a system in terms of everyone enjoying the situation

linksassin

05:43

Hmm.. interesting, I can definitely see that working for one of my groups.

trogdor

In Fate you decide what you want your setting to be like, and what you want to be possible (or use one of many various premade ones)

But within that you can go pretty weird with what you want your character to be

MikeQ

And apparently in between Fate sessions, players can adjust their character stats to an extent, so it (theoretically) rewards build strategy, without punishing suboptimal builds in the long term.

trogdor

Yeah

linksassin

Is there tactical combat or is it more narrative driven?

trogdor

There is a sort of tactical combat

Definitely not to the extent of DND but it exists

MikeQ

05:45

The action seems more narrative than tactical, but the tactics can be present depending on how the action sequence is set up

trogdor

It's definitely more narrative than tactical but tactics are still very employable

You can, for example, cause enough harm to an opponent that they have to take a consequence to stay in the fight

This consiquence can be evoked by the person who gave it to them, but they can also pass it off to a friend on thier turn instead

There are also create advantage and overcome rolls

Things you can do basically instead of just trying to hit someone

MikeQ

Right. A character could knock over some environmental object to create an advantage for an ally. That's tactics, sorta. But it's not as precise or granular as D&D. Probably won't be doing as much geometry or bookkeeping.

trogdor

To gain an advantage or nuetralize an enemy one

Yeah I mean

linksassin

That's cool. Combat that's measure in more than just hitpoints

trogdor

Again not the same kinda thing DND is good at

And there are still skills or approaches you can use

It's not totally like, freeform or something

MikeQ

05:54

It's less structured than D&Dish games, but more robust than something barebones like Everyone is John or Honey Heist

trogdor

You can't just make a guy who's good at literally everything but you can pretty well customize what kind of character you want

Yeah it sort of hits a middle ground on that

MikeQ

I'd say it's closer to the simpler end - It doesn't require system mastery, and the fundamental rules can be explained to players in only a few minutes

trogdor

That's fair, more or less

Though the philosophy behind how it works can be easier or harder for different groups to grasp

There's a little bit more to it than just "here's the basic mechanics"

MikeQ

True - Perhaps the hardest part of learning Fate is the understanding that it's not (typically) supposed to work like D&Dish systems

trogdor

There's the fact that the Fate points must flow, and also that everyone has about as much power to decide what's going on in the world as everyone else

Though that's supposed to mostly work via consensus

Like the example of when I was playing that Villan spying on the party

Everyone was in on that, and perpetuating it

It was probably my favorite set of Fate sessions, when that was going on

Done right it's awesome

Done not so right it can fall a bit flat :/

kviiri

07:39

@linksassin I haven't played Fate much, specifically, but the most obvious I've come to find most RPG systems are able to provide a full-bodied adventure over the course of three hours, which feels nigh-impossible in DnD.

vicky_molokh

08:02

@trogdor I'm curious how that should go in practice. I'm currently both playing in a campaign and GMing another one, and my impression is that the mantra of the FP flowing at a grate rate doesn't line up with the rate at which events in a session occur (which means that in practice, a player maybe spends 4 FP per milestone out of a Refresh of 3, on average).

Disclaimer: as a GM, I run a text game, which is a bit slower than face-to-face gaming, so a minor milestone corresponds to two three-hour sessions. As a player, I'm in 5-hour-ish sessions face to face.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh I had the same experience in my attempts. I think it's something many groups have to ease into, since people are usually used to conserving resources for "bad days ahead"

vicky_molokh

Given that experience, I feel that the frantic pace of spend spend spend compel compel compel that seems to be praised in theoretical discussions would result in rushing through a lot of RP, planning and investigation, and result in a much more 'zoomed out' experience, more like a wargame than an RPG.

Of course, I haven't seen the frantic pace in action, so maybe I'm wrong!

trogdor

@vicky_molokh @kviiri what I mean is, at least in my experience, that not everyone gets compelled maybe as often as they should in all our games

and that's not all on the GM

that's what part of the problem we had was, the GM was trying to compel everyone and not all the other players were,... participating in that part of the game

for me it's not so much meant to be a frantic pace, but even a small trickle is hard if only one person is trying to do it

vicky_molokh

Also, IME (both as a GM and player) there's an average of 1-2 compels per minor milestone (total, not per player), because more would either not make sense, or disrupt the scenes/story/etc. and/or because there aren't more logical opportunities for them.

kviiri

@trogdor Agreed

vicky_molokh

08:08

Also, what's the deal with the room dedicated to the system? How are rooms unfrozen anyway? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/8403

trogdor

@vicky_molokh I have not problem with that idea, but sometimes we got less than that

it definitely needs a balance

and the compels themselves shouldn't come out unless they are pretty good

vicky_molokh

But I don't feel bad about not being up to the normative flow of FPs.

trogdor

but really all of that lines up neatly with my original point

which is Fate is a little harder to,... run than the sum of it's mechanical parts

@vicky_molokh you don't have to

if it seems like the amount you are getting is the right amount all the better

vicky_molokh

I mean it's allegedly a big problem, but it's not a problem IME.

Yeah, the slower rate works for me.

trogdor

that's fair I mean

groups are gonna differ

vicky_molokh

08:18

Personally, problems I have with the system are:
1. Aspect Permissions. This is an extremely vague thing that the system absolutely doesn't help me deal with.
2. *Most* canonical Stunts are IME not worth their price in Refresh, a few are too good, and there are generally very few helpful guidelines to making my own in a balanced way.
3. The system puts so much weight into in-fiction truths, yet absolutely doesn't help figuring them out. E.g. when worldbuilding, in GURPS you can ask the system to help you out, and you'll get a plausible-ish planet; in FATE, you have to be an astrophysicist a…

kviiri

This ties in with the statement I made earlier about DnD being slow --- of course, that's not a problem for all groups, but IME it's far more common for DnD groups to say "we care about the story more, not really the mechanics" than the other way 'round, which suggests to me there's plenty of market for systems where the mechanics allow the story to develop more in each session.

@vicky_molokh For me, the chief difficulty is modeling stuff. I know a cool thing I want to define mechanically, but should it be a stunt, or aspect, or a skill, or something else?

BESW

@vicky_molokh That room was made when Fate Core/Accelerated were in beta and the Fate conversation was overwhelming the main chat so it was moved over. Rooms get unfrozen by diamond moderators; our own Nits and Greener are happy to do so.

@kviiri The cool thing about Fate is that any of those works, but over time you get a sense of which is gonna work better for you.

Miniman

@BESW That said, we probably don't need a dedicated Fate room right now.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Well, that's only worth doing if I'm not the only one interested.

BESW

My rule of the thumb is that an always-true thing which can be good or bad is an aspect; a sometimes-true thing that can be good or bad is a skill; and a thing that's always good is a stunt.

vicky_molokh

08:23

Stunts vs. Skills: If it's something everyone can try, use a skill, else lean towards Stunt. If it's a subset of a Skill-thing everyone can do, but some people are better at specifically it, it's a Stunt.

BESW

But then, I also really want to try skill-less Fate.

vicky_molokh

Rocketeers?

Or just FAE?
@BESW

Miniman

@BESW I've barely played any Fate, (and I think it was actually Accelerated), but how would a skill being bad work?

BESW

@Miniman You can fail when you use it.

Miniman

@BESW Ah, I see what you mean.

BESW

08:25

@vicky_molokh FAE uses the skill mechanic, it just modifies the narrative thing a skill asks ("how are you doing the thing?" rather than "what thing are you doing?"). So yes, a Rocketeer-like system. Specifically I think I'd like to try the Fate of the TMNT.

kviiri

@BESW Aye. I admit I have maybe too much of an obsession with getting things right the first time

Except not maybe, definitely.

My environment contributes to the problem, tho.

BESW

Yeah, I was very worried about that at first.

vicky_molokh

Personally, I never understood why people see FAE's ways of doing things as an upside. The skill set is actually one of the primary attractors of Core for me - it's a list that is short enough to not be tedious, a closed set (within a given campaign) that results in retention of PC competence over any breadth of topics the campaign wants to tackle, and it allows characterisation of PCs.

BESW

Then I realized I'd been doing a lot of things "wrong" and it still worked fine.

For me, FAE is great for specific kinds of storytelling. I like to call it "easy TV."

If you've got a big burly guy, he's equally good at intimidating and breaking and lifting. He's Forceful.

If you've got a smart gal, she's good at crosswords and biology and computers. She's Careful.

"What are you good at?" skills are often a very bad way to model certain kinds of story structures.

"How do you do things?" approaches work a lot better for many TV-style story paradigms.

(Also, the Core skill list is woefully inadequate for many kinds of stories even if skills are the right sort of thing. Check out how many "Does a social thing" skills there are compared to the "Does a fighting thing" skills; it's imbalanced in favor of a certain kind of play.)

(The more a category of action is broken into individual units that require separate investment of character resources, the more that category of action is considered important.)

Miniman

I'm going to weigh in with my total lack of experience (as is my wont) - Indiana Jones doesn't really have any specific skills. (I mean, action heroing, I guess?) But he does have ways he does things - sometimes Forcefully, sometimes Cleverly, almost never Carefully.

BESW

08:34

And personally, I find that the time spent in thinking about skills doesn't pay off in the fun skills add to my games.

I found that for NPCs I liked making ranked aspects, which led to my thinking about skill-less Fate as a viable option.

@Miniman Exactly.

(Re: stunt balance, it's really not too important. Stunts are balanced by a lot of subjective qualities and ultimately you just fiddle with 'em until they get the game effect you want. One thing I've found is that stunts can be much more powerful if using them is dramatic and a central part of your campaign's aesthetic, because you want people to use those stunts and it's good for everyone when they're used.)

The only reason stunts need balance is to control spotlighting and agency so nobody gets left out. I love stunts that actively promote spotlight sharing.

For example, [Captain's Fancy Valentine Sweetheart](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X26x25RppjRtfEA_rGL0guIO_iXY7fxIZ7DSyDvUcWE/edit) has
'Sapients Helping Sapients.' When I invoke an aspect to help a non-human sapients' roll, I grant a +3 bonus instead of +2.

This encourages Sweetheart to cede the spotlight to other players without becoming irrelephant to the scene.

Similarly Tegan has

> Because I have leadership training, I get +2 when Flashily creating aspects to coordinate a plan.

Mar 31 '16 at 21:24, by BESW

Tegan's "coordinate a plan" stunt let her sit in the back of a massive conflict and create free invokes on I have a good plan!, which she could hand out to any teammate who was acting in accordance with that plan.

I guess this is a good time to mention the conversations saved in the Fate chat room, including a lot of beta-testing of Fate Core.

BESW

09:03

Fate-ifying Star Wars: Luke vs Vader in Cloud City

Dec 7 '17 at 22:28, 14 hours 8 minutes total – 32 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 27 '18 at 23:10 by BESW

vicky_molokh

09:24

So much to reply to . . .

@BESW Maybe I have different story goals. I wouldn't be comfortable flattening the distinctions of, say, the Bones cast or the Blacklist cast into Approaches.

BESW

The Bones cast is a great example of FAE approaches. Their distinctions are aspects and stunts that give context to approaches.

vicky_molokh

@BESW The Core skill is good enough a starting point IME. That being said, how skills are split is certainly a major decision with some long-reaching consequences. Finer-grained splitting produces better characterisation and more fiddliness during chargen, while coarser-grained produces greater efficiency in the skill's field and easier chargen. But with fighting skills vs. other skills there's another nuance:

BESW

And keep in mind, I spent a year or so happily playing in a Fate system that makes Core's skill complexity look like approaches by comparison. I'm not anti-skills, I've just found that they don't usually to add value to the kinds of games I play.

vicky_molokh

The number of rolls needed to conclude the outcome. This puts skills at odds with Aspects. Combat skills, taking easily 8+ rolls per conclusion, are better pumped through raw skill levels, while other skills can more often get by on a single roll, or maybe 3-5 for Contests, which makes Aspect Invocations more efficient.

@BESW Most of the cast is Clever, but they differ in what things they're trained in and apply their cleverness to.

BESW

Bones isn't very Clever at all. She's Careful and Forceful.

Booth is Flashy and Forceful.

vicky_molokh

09:32

@BESW IME competence imbalance tends to lead to narrative imbalance. I've seen it happen in a plethora of systems. My jury is still out on whether that happens in Core, but I'm leaning towards it being a plausible risk.

BESW

Clever is about quick improvisation. Most sciencey types in TV aren't.

@vicky_molokh Yeah, but stunt balance isn't the same as, say, feat balance. The same levers aren't being pulled.

vicky_molokh

That's not the impression I got. Or rather, my impression that quick improvisation is only a small subset of Clever, accounting for 25% to 35%.

> A Clever action requires that you think fast, solve problems,
or account for complex variables. Finding the weakness in an enemy
swordsman’s style. Finding the weak point in a fortress wall. Fixing a
computer.

Aside from thinking fast, it notes things like problem-solving ability, and accounting for complex variables. Two very forensic things.

BESW

Complex variables are a component of it, yeah. But compare to "A Careful action is when you pay close attention to detail and take your time to do the job right." which is exactly what Bones excels at.

vicky_molokh

By that definition, you seem to be shifting the whole cast (except the grunt) towards being all Careful.

Maybe I'm wrong about Clever vs. Careful, but they still look samey as a result to me.

Maybe I'm not factoring in some additional criteria you're factoring in.

BESW

There's overlap, yeah. I prefer the DFAE approaches myself, for that reason.

Careful is what the story's about glorifying, isn't it? (Angela and Hodgins aren't so Careful though; they tend to be Flashy/Sneaky.)

Bones' character arc is about how difficult social proficiency can be when you don't have the ability to quickly adapt to changing circumstances.

vicky_molokh

09:39

@BESW I thought her story arc is about how the nail that is unlike the others get hammered the strongest, and how over the long term, resisting social norms is futile.

But that's probably a long tangent.

BESW

Mmm.

To take another example: the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles all have basically the same skills. They're differentiated by how they use those skills: Raph is Forceful, Donnie's Clever, Mikey's Flashy, Leo's Careful.

vicky_molokh

Anyway, from what I remember (it's been a while), all of the cast is either Clever by my understanding or Careful by yours - they spend hours solving complex cerebral problems, applying logic and honed training to things, except there's some distinction in which things they're trained in - some with more computer knowledge, some with more bone knowledge, some are more general-purpose coroners etc.

I have very little memory of TNMT, I apologise.

Maybe it's all a POB thing.

BESW

Someday I'm gonna try out Faith Corps, which combines both.

vicky_molokh

To me, defining people by approaches they take rather than what they're good at seems odd, uninformative, and making everyone more samey/cardboard in many contexts.

BESW

(Pick one from each column to determine the dice you roll for a given action.)

vicky_molokh

09:45

Pick one from each per roll, like in WoD?

If yes, then that looks good enough to make me comfortable trying as a player. (I'm willing to try FAE one day even though it would not be comfortable for me.)

(Another thing that FAE makes me uncomfortable about is bigger emphasis on Aspect Permissions and on adjusting difficulties through fiat for the same action.)

BESW

Mmm. Fate doesn't really sit well with the D&D-style "if it's the same physical action, it's always the same mechanic and number."

@vicky_molokh Cortex, but yes.

In the Star Wars V duel between Luke and Vader, they do a lot of attack/parry actions.

But very rarely would I model those as mechanical attacks in a Fate game version of it.

They're attempts to create advantages, like making Luke feel cocky, or overcome actions to get past Vader while moving to a better position.

vicky_molokh

Oh, I tried reading some Cortex not long ago. Was not impressed by the dice engine, but many other concepts looked good. (Unless I'm confusing it with the Solar system, which I also skimmed recently.)

Oh yeah, I don't assume that one swing maps to one roll, of course. I got that FATE is more abstract than that.

BESW

The fight/parry visuals on the screen are narrated as part of the action, but actually hitting each other is rarely the goal of each action.

Also, FAE doesn't change the importance of aspect permissions compared to Core. It just has less other stuff going on also.

vicky_molokh

OTOH, I've had some unease myself, and seen players uneasy, with the need to specify action type when making an exchange, because it cannot be unambiguously derived from the in-fiction description alone.

BESW

That's where talking it out as a group comes in.

There's not a Right Answer, but very rarely is there a Wrong Answer either.

vicky_molokh

09:54

@BESW It's just a case I repeatedly had discussions where I ask 'But how do I differentiate X and Y in FAE if PCs have the same Approaches' and get 'use more Aspect permissions!' as an answer.

BESW

Just use whatever seems right at the moment and if you're not sure, ask your friends.

vicky_molokh

@BESW That doesn't really solve the discomfort, because it still involves breaking immersion.

FATE is a very 'gearbox-exposed' system.

BESW

Yes, it's barely a system at all except for the fate point economy.

It's more like a toolbox.

I've found it to be very immersive in the sense that I've had a strong sense of the characters, who they are, how they respond to problems, and I care about them.

vicky_molokh

Which on one hand can produce mechanical transparancy if players decide to talk about mechanics directly, but can be unwieldy when players maintain immersion and hide all the mechanics inside the box.

BESW

But if immersion means going long periods without thinking about the mechanics, or being able to treat the mechanics as if they were physical laws of the game world... noooope, Fate has no interest in that.

vicky_molokh

09:58

Yeah, I'm talking about players going for long periods without thinking about mechanics, or at all even.

BESW

Feb 7 '18 at 22:39, by BESW

So talking about how to maintain "realism" and "immersion" is really talking about how to avoid metaphor shear.

Fate-ifying Star Wars: Luke vs Vader in Cloud City

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