TRPG General Chat

BESW

12:00 AM

Janelle Monáe - Dirty Computer [Emotion Picture]

►

V2Blast

ah

read an interview with her about the album but hadn't watched the video

trogdor

It's a really bad way to clean a computer for sure

I'm not even sure how they thought it would work really

MikeQ

It works via blockchain technology

user15026

@BESW Yeah, don't turn it upside down like that!

user15026

@BESW Someday, I'm gonna watch this. Someday. (I need a lot of attention-spoons)

trogdor

12:05 AM

@Ash lol yeah one of many stupid parts of the idea

BESW

@Ash You may also need some feels-spoons.

trogdor

Feels spoons are big

user15026

@BESW noted! I've....been using a lot of those lately.

user15026

In a good way, but y'know.

BESW

Yes, you have!

user15026

12:07 AM

Humans are SO FULL OF FEELINGS, yo.

user15026

@trogdor It has layers of bad, like a onion of ungood cleaning practices.

trogdor

@Ash yeah, and this is just one picture of one thing

@Ash also yeah, humans be all feels like

user15026

They do! It's weird.

GreySage

@Ash Ever since my kids were born I have so many more feelings than I used to. It's a total hassle.

trogdor

Human emotions are so strange and complicated, why can't you all just hoard gold, or awkward social situations, and be happy?

user15026

12:16 AM

@GreySage I've been in feelings overload the past few weeks due to some stuff I've been figuring out and I am just like "okay yes a lot of this is good feels but whoa is there like...a way for it not to be a firehose"

user15026

@trogdor giggles Oh, I think I've definitely got some awkward social situations hoarded up :P

GreySage

@Ash Feelings are overrated.

user15026

It depends on the feelings I think.

trogdor

@Ash I bet, so do I

@Ash I was referencing this

It's one of my favorites

At least currently

V2Blast

12:37 AM

lol

Shalvenay

hey there @KDodge, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

user15026

12:52 AM

@trogdor oh my gosh the face in the last panel

user15026

I love it

user15026

That gave me a good giggle.

trogdor

It's the best

user15026

I love it.

trogdor

Great, just what I hoped

Xirema

12:57 AM

@V2Blast Okay, I'm definitely rolling up an Artificer for my next character. This is a much better class than what they presented previously.

trogdor

My greatest joy is other people liking the stupid stuff I like

user15026

Yay! :)

user15026

I am glad I could bring you joy then

trogdor

:)

Ben

1:28 AM

@trogdor I love it when this sort of stuff gets shared and reshared.

trogdor

It's fun for sure

Rubiksmoose

2:14 AM

@Xirema I really dig it for the flavor improvements alone. Some of the options elicit actual excitement from me!

Ben

I bought my first Power Rangers shirt today.

This is weird only because I'm a 30 year old MMPR fan and I haven't had any paraphernalia since I was a kid, but I have LoZ, Biker Mice from Mars and Spiderman themed clothing, cups etc.

MikeQ

@Xirema It's stronger than before, although the new alchemist subclass still seems much weaker than the alternative

Miniman

2:40 AM

@MikeQ Weaker, maybe, but I wouldn't have said much. Being restricted to acid spells hurts, but supercharged healing is very nice, and in games that don't make potions freely available you're going to be very popular among your party members.

MikeQ

True, except life cleric does it better and earlier

Miniman

Well, yeah, but life cleric is focused on it way more.

One of the most interesting things about this iteration of the artificer is the sheer breadth of options they have.

CTWind

4:18 AM

I approve of just giving cantrips and saying to reflavor to the effects coming from devices/potions over having a bunch of unique essentially-cantrip actions.

Ben

Speaking of, how is your arm-mounted cannon warforged alchemist going @Rubiksmoose?

MikeQ

@CTWind Yes, giving them fireball/cloudkill is more sensible than reinventing those spells as new features

Geoffrey Lim

5:02 AM

Welp ha happened

that

GM had to time out my charachter from a fight because I was dunking on villians

Ben

...and why was this happening?

Geoffrey Lim

Dice rolls

a combination of bad luck on the DM's part

and my charachter's entire build was around manipulating the dice

Also it's a pre-written adventure with these forces meant to be overwhelming for the heroes

it was working for everyone else

but my charachter

who was casually dunking on 2 major named enemies at the same time

Ben

What do you mean by "dunking" though?

Shalvenay

@Ben as in "kicking their butt"

Geoffrey Lim

Utterly defeating them

basketball term

Ben

5:09 AM

Right. Just wanted to confirm. I come from Australia so that kinda has another meaning as well.

Anyway, moving on. You mentioned that your character is meant to be manipulating the dice, how so?

Geoffrey Lim

Into her build I put in every in game ability I could find that could allow her to reroll dice

and force rerolls

in a dice based game the ability to look at a dice and decided that nah you're gonna leave it alone

Ben

System/class?

Geoffrey Lim

is really really powerful

M&M point buy

it's a subtheme of her

her main theme is arrogant kung fu lady

I bought a lot of ranks of reroll per session

Ben

@GeoffreyLim Mutants and Masterminds?

Geoffrey Lim

yeag

also bad luck on the GM's part meant he kept making a small mistake of handing out hero points to me

sure more actions it is

Ben

5:15 AM

Right. Sounds a bit OP. Lol

V2Blast

5:38 AM

Just got done with a CoS session I'm playing in. We're gradually working our way through Death House

Ben

6:27 AM

The feeling when you're starving at work, then you remember your bought yourself some snacks earlier in the week for just such an occasion.

Ben

6:45 AM

Oh right! I cracked 10k on rpg.se recently! woo!

V2Blast

6:57 AM

congrats!

Finally got a chance to look through the UA! Some people have made valid criticisms, but on the whole I am excited by the new artificer! It's quite unique and flavorful, and I like how the mechanics reinforce the flavor. Looking forward to how it works in actual play. Hopefully this provides a good starting point for future development!

BESW

7:37 AM

Has anybody made an updated version of the Cthulhu Dark pamphlets that reflect the new edition of the game?

BESW

9:01 AM

It is worth building our fictional worlds with care, for these are the signage we leave for the people we are and wish to be. "All worldbuilding, without exception, is political," by Mimi Mondal for Hindustan Times

vicky_molokh

10:05 AM

Seems like a case of expanding the meaning of the word 'political' so widely that it becomes meaningless.

BESW

10:53 AM

Aside from the X/O/N cards and the Luxton Technique, what other safety tools do people recommend for RPGs?

5

MikeQ

11:15 AM

@Ben Congrats, now you have spookyvision and can see deleted posts from beyond the grave

@BESW I forget, do either of those involve strategically "fading to black" or shifting focus?

BESW

Lines and veils are common techniques for dealing with a situation like when an X or N card is tapped, but they aren't useful without a structure for identifying when they're needed.

MikeQ

Hm ok. Well, there's the general strategy of monitoring the active discussions and monitoring the other participants' body language, and then intervening to steer the discussion as needed. From what I understand the Luxton technique deals with that to some extent.

BESW

I found this guide to using safety tools while streaming which covers a lot of ground though it isn't critical of the X/O/N card systems' gaps and it doesn't cover the ground dealt with by tools like the Luxton Technique.

Hmm. Maybe I'll suggest they use Microscope early on.

@MikeQ In my experience, the specific technique is less important than that the game starts with not just a conversation about being open to peoples' needs, but having a system--any system is better than none--in place to show that it's not just talk, and to remind everyone to take these things seriously.

There are better and worse systems though the specifics depend on the group obviously. The Luxton technique was formalized in response to failures of the X-card for specific needs.

trogdor

11:37 AM

@BESW what gaps does it cover?

BESW

But I've found that the more you have such a thing in place, the more comfortable people are to work it out socially, often without even needing to formally invoke the system.

Aug 29 '17 at 11:25, by eimyr

PTSD, access to role-playing games, and the Luxton technique

> Fundamentally, any approach to triggering material that contains any element of "pretend it never happened" is emotionally disastrous for me, because it recapitulates the environment of denial and dismissal around my traumatic experiences. [...]
these meta-techniques center the status quo -- the goal is to "deal with" the triggering event, or the triggered person, and then return to regular play as if the interruption had never happened. I submit that, due the nature of PTSD, this approach is fundamentally flawed.

Multiple people are designing techniques for dealing with a set of common experiences they've had, and many more people consider it useful for improving their own experiences. Thus, the thing happens frequently enough for many people to independently find it necessary and useful.

Can we stop trying to say a thing is unreasonable to expect when, if it didn't happen relatively frequently, we wouldn't be talking about it?

If you've never experienced it, great, I'm glad for you. It is demonstrably a common experience for many others including several people in this conversation right now.

MikeQ

@BESW I mean, I'd like to expect my TTRPG participants to have that level of sensitivity (woke-ness?), but these issues have happened enough that I think it's worthwhile to set up proactive measures

BESW

11:53 AM

@MikeQ Very much so. Especially in contexts where players don't have extensive social contact outside of game time, like newly formed groups and convention games... but I've also had a lot of miscommunication within established groups because we assume shared commonalities and don't want to rock the boat when those assumptions make us uncomfortable.

@MikeQ So much of this is about context, and as the Luxton technique article points out it's impossible to have a one-size-fits-all tool or technique. I'm helping someone start up an RPG group with relative strangers and I want to make sure I can make as many tools as possible available to her. I trust her ability to match the tool to the situation but it would be unreasonable to expect her to invent tools on the spot.

I'm also interested in these tools for myself, as a game host and in a lot of group-atmosphere-curation contexts outside RPGs.

I really like how the Luxton Technique is a tool tailored to a specific kind of experience, and I wonder if other such tools exist--since, as that article points out, the X card got overused as a panacea like the Same Page Tool.

MikeQ

12:27 PM

@BESW From the article I'm not entirely sure what that specific experience is, but I like the technique of shifting from the in-game narrative into a table-level discussion, it seems very flexible and accommodating

BESW

The Luxton Technique is "a technique that would improve access to RPGs for some PTSD sufferers without also excluding PTSD sufferers like myself" because "Rather than having our traumatic experiences -- already a disjoint with reality -- cause a disjoint in play, we were able to integrate them into play and tell a story about or, at least, at an angle to, our traumatic experiences, real and pretend."

4

That is, it "avoids damaging experiences and centers healing experiences."

> The question is not "how do we return Ben to the status quo?" or "how can we stop Ben from having a traumatic experience?" because those goals are impossible. The question is "what kind of traumatic experience is Ben going to have?" It can either be a damaging experience -- one that reinforces the trigger and my PTSD -- or it can be a healing experience -- one that lets me recontextualize the trigger and its part of the trauma into my normal psyche.

kviiri

@BESW By what little I know about PTSD, this sounds correct and useful

trogdor

I have no real understanding of it

BESW

@kviiri [wave] Do you know of any other gaming safety tools/techniques?

trogdor

I get that it is a thing that happens to people, but all I have on it is media garbage (I assume)

kviiri

12:38 PM

@BESW Sadly, not many. The ones I know I've learned of/heard from you :)

BESW

Fair enough.

trogdor

same here

BESW

I should probably check the Fate Horror Toolkit; modern horror game material tends to be one of the most reliable places to find these sorts of things.

Lovecraftesque has some useful essays on handling specific topics that HPL didn't handle well, but that's not really the same thing.

kviiri

In cheerful yet unrelated news, Spring has progressed so far I no longer have dark commutes \o/ (sadly, I also miss out on beautiful sunrises)

BESW

Hooray/boo.

The Horror Toolkit has the X-Card and Script Change, so meh. But it's got a very good section on player consent and safety that may be more useful in the long run.

The expanded Cthulhu Dark guide seems sadly unconcerned with these issues.

kviiri

12:52 PM

I'm mostly the vanguard of our group of ~ten or so players, with the others being varying in their enthusiasm to adopt newfangled ideas into the "usual way", which is basically just the "gut feel" of how TTRPGs should work.

I don't think the group perceives themselves as needing safety stuff, which might be true to some extent but I think setting up healthy routines would be good for the inevitability when someone goes to another table to play.

I do have "stuff you want to see / don't want to see" part in my session zero, though, as a normal routine.

BESW

@kviiri It's a good start to establish that those are things which can and should be talked about! I'm thinking of recommending that they play Microscope early on, to get used to Add/Ban conversations and trusting that giving each other moments of unconditional authority is awesome.

kviiri

@BESW I think we've made some good progress though, considering our group started out with essentially the mindset that the consistency of the fictional world is paramount, even over player enjoyment. Which lends itself into all kinds of Thermian stuff...

BESW

@kviiri Ooh, yeah, that's a habit that can take time to walk back from even if you want to.

kviiri

@BESW Yeah, I guess it's largely because we're all fairly new to the hobby (by which I mean we all had sizeable video game experience before) and one of the main perceived draws to the hobby was being able to play in a world that was more real, not limiting what you can do to a bunch of menus and scripted actions. I dare say we over-corrected, enjoying the liberty but for its own sake, not for the stories we could now create.

Rubiksmoose

1:07 PM

We've been testing out some tools at our table as we have a couple players one with severe trauma and others more mildly.

The more severe case definitely has gotten triggered before but it took a while for her to help us understand what she was going through and we have had to convince her that there were other options besides her "just d ealing with it"

Currently we are in the infancy of developing a lines and veils system and trying that out.

Before I had developed my own really rough system where people created an anonymous list of triggers or content they didn't want to see. Essentially the lines part of lines and veils.

BESW

1:24 PM

→ 22 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

Rubiksmoose

Thank you.

BESW

→ 32 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

@Rubiksmoose I'd be very interested in hearing more about your actual experiences with such things, in an appropriate time and place, and to an appropriate extent that wouldn't break the trust of your gaming group.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I've actually gotten prior permission from the group to talk about such things and nothing will be personally identifiable anyways.

BESW

Oh, that's very generous of them!

Now is not a good time for me, but some time later would be very nice.

Rubiksmoose

Yeah we are pretty open about things now. I asked if I could talk about it when I was looking into safety systems actually even though I never had to use that option.

No worries just hit me up anytime when we are both online. This is good too because I wanted to have another group discussion on the mater with my group to further implement our system.

We kind of dropped the ball for this new one shot, so I should have more to talk about in the nearish future.

BESW

1:36 PM

These are the references and resource materials I've offered my friend so far:

A flyer on general safety with some tools and techniques; the original x-card and o-card documents;

the Luxton Technique with its criticism of the X-card's failure re PTSD triggers; a GM's pre-game "safety talk"; and a related article about access intimacy that is relephant to my friend's goals with her RPG group.

I'll be sharing the Fate Horror Toolkit's pages on player safety and consent, too.

Rubiksmoose

Thank you! And actually you deserve credit for bringing these to my attention and to our table in the first place since I learned about them here in chat when you mentioned it a long time ago. IT was a huge breakthrough for me to learn that this was a problem other groups were dealing with and tools had been invented to help already.

BESW

I know, right? So much of my best experiences here have been "OMG that's not just me?"

I'm glad to have passed on the not-being-alone-ness!

Rubiksmoose

It is kind of strange how sometimes don't even consider that problems we are experiencing are not wholly unique and thus don't even consider looking for advice from others that have gone through it.

BESW

Yeah, in the last few months I've had a couple friends reach "I don't have to endure this, there are ways to solve/mitigate my problems because others have walked the path before me" realizations. It's such an overpowering shift in how we perceive ourselves.

Rubiksmoose

One of the big struggles is that one of my players struggles a lot with depression and a sense of self-worth which makes it hard for her to be forward with her trauma issues (because why bother she's not worth the trouble [she says to herself])

BESW

1:47 PM

Ah yes.

That's Definitely A Thing.

Rubiksmoose

And we have been trying in our flawed and amateurish ways to help encourage her to view herself as a being of worth and value (she is truly a wonderful person) and that we love her and want her to be having at least as much fun and comfort as the rest of us.

(and also for her to seek professional help, which she is)

BESW

From my limited experience, bringing tools and techniques to actively support her comfortable participation is probably even more powerful than it may seem, just because you're demonstrating through action that you're thinking about her and are willing to modify your experience so she can be part of it.

Words can be dismissed as hollow niceness more easily than bold actions like that.

Rubiksmoose

I certainly hope it is helping :) It has been educational from everyone's perspective though.

BESW

It's a journey for everybody!

Rubiksmoose

I don't struggle with trauma that I am aware of and this whole side of emotional injuries has been eye-opening in a way that really shifted how I thought about mental health.

BESW

1:53 PM

Ditto for several similar topics with people I've worked or played alongside.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW and to directly address what you are saying (instead of prattling on about me) that is wonderful that friends have been able to reach that state. It is such a dark thing to be on the other side of it I think.

BESW

One of my friends once told me that they significantly revised their worldview after playing alongside an indigenous friend in our group and hearing their perspectives on things that they'd only ever had one perspective on.

@Rubiksmoose Yes, and it's a great reminder that the game is ultimately about having fun with friends.

And having fun with friends means... being friends first, then having fun.

Whenever I forget that, and prioritize the fun over the friends, the fun and the friends stop happening.

Rubiksmoose

A seemingly easy and simple fact that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle.

Colin Gross

@BESW That's interesting.

@Rubiksmoose Like dental health. Regular maintenance and twice a year checkups.

BESW

@ColinGross I think I'm long overdue for a checkup but I definitely have hangups about it.

Colin Gross

2:03 PM

You don't want your gums poked and prodded at?

BESW

Especially not my psychic gums.

@Rubiksmoose One thing I've been thinking about in terms of formalizing lines/veils type lists and making them less.... negative... is implementing something inspired by Microscope's Add/Ban/Legacy system.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I really need to give Microscope a read.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose I give a brief synopsis of the concept here.

Rubiksmoose

heh. Of course it was you who introduced me to that. I was about to say that someone in chat had explained it breifly before. And I see that according to my comment it was you!

BESW

My idea is, using Add/Ban/Legacy as a way to formalize campaign collaboration, would also create a way to establish lines and veils expectations without centering the conversation on "what don't you want and what freaks you out."

MikeQ

2:07 PM

@BESW Why is it turn based? Also, can participants skip turns?

BESW

It's turn-based because Microscope is built around sovereign turn autonomy and the Add/Ban phase is introducing us to it.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW That is a really interesting idea because, as you say, L/V can get inherently negative.

BESW

But yes, in the Palette stage turn order is insignificant and you don't have to add anything if you don't want to.

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, I much prefer rolling it into "of course we're going to establish the sort of game we want to play."

Rather than, like, "Okay, now's the time for the spoilsports to speak up and tell us how they're gonna ruin our fun." Which can easily be the received tone no matter how much you try to avoid that.

Rubiksmoose

@BESW That reminds me a bit of the Same Page Tool (which we just used for the first time as well).

BESW

I've never used the Same Page Tool... I just can't wrap my head around seeing it work for my group.

I might try using it in a new group.

But I think for me it'd work better as a prompt sheet for a guided conversation, than using it as directed.

Rubiksmoose

2:14 PM

@BESW Yeah that has been a big issue for us to address because we want people to speak up about their issues but inherently it put pressure on the one(s) with the most issues and shines a spotlight on them. Working on ways to aleviate this both through environment and tool use but it is a hard issue to avoid.

Anaphory

@BESW That's how I tend to use it, and how I introduce it to people. “Here are some properties you might not think about when you set up a game, take this as inspiration to see what might need discussion.”

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I think it worked really well for us and caused some interesting reveals and caught a couple of issues in the bud.

BESW

@Rubiksmoose And that's where the "friends" part comes in, I think: establishing a supportive atmosphere that emphasizes "we want to play with you" over "we want to play this way" is soooo important. One thing I've done is set aside non-game time for group socialization.

MikeQ

@BESW Agreed, the same page tool is crafted as one of those surveys where the options are very polarized. Doesn't account for person preferences where multiple options (or an unspecified option) may apply.

> Yes, some of you might say, “I can do 2 or 3 of those choices” – pick the one that best fits the game you’re trying to run.

There’s room for negotiation, but remember- the group needs to pick ONE of each category.

As someone who likes simple, I think this model is too simple

BESW

@MikeQ That's the word I wanted! Polarized! The Tool says that it's about finding options everyone can play inside comfortably, but the options are framed as mutually exclusive in a way that actively impedes finding common ground.

Rubiksmoose

2:17 PM

@MikeQ Well the important thing is that it is not a survey. It is vital to understand that. It is a list of options that your group chooses one and agrees to it. Several times we created our own option because we didn't like the options there, but the important thing is that the group talks about and agrees on one statement for the game.

MikeQ

@BESW The tool has some value, but I'd suggest letting players choose multiple options or even a write-in option

BESW

Yeah, I'm not saying the Tool is useless. Just that I can't see my group getting benefit from using it according to the directions.

Obviously a lot of people have used it and had their group dynamics tangibly improve as a result, and I'm very happy it exists for them.

Rubiksmoose

Hmmmm I'm not sure about that. Choosing multiple options actually breaks the entire tool. The idea is that you agree on how this game should be played even if it involves compromises. You can't play in multiple mutually exclusive ways so I think this would actually lead to issues.

MikeQ

@Rubiksmoose The tool doesn't account for... sometimes-ness. i.e. Many of these questions should have a "sometimes" or "it depends" option

Rubiksmoose

Write-in however, is explicitly (IIRC) encouraged and something that I would recommend.

Well I've only used it once but I don't think we encountered any options where that was an issue for us.

(which isn't to say that it won't happen to other groups of course, just speaking from very limited experience)

@MikeQ Yeah I mean I think we can both agree the rigid structure doesn't do any favors. We found the conversation more helpful than the results. Afterwards I felt like I understood how the game was going to be playd and like we were all on the same...page.

But it's not like I've gone back and looked at which options we checked or anything like that.

BESW

2:27 PM

MikeQ

"In other news..." - Plato

@Rubiksmoose Did you see the new artificer?

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ I did! They did sooooo much better harnessing the alchemist vibes I think. The mechanics seem compelling too though I will miss my mechanical pet animal (which I never had) ( which is now a homunculus)

I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure I would be able to have a ridiculous AC with my warforged alchemist. Maybe 23 with no investment in armor?

Warforged is....really good I think.

Anaphory

@MikeQ Where from? We might have to steal bits of it for the alchemist in our campaign if it's good.

MikeQ

16 hours ago, by V2Blast

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/artificer-revisited
IT'S HERE

@Anaphory The previous UA alchemist was not much of a class. How'd you get it to work in a campaign?

Anaphory

Na, homebrew.

MikeQ

2:37 PM

Ah. The new UA is probably more limited than the power level I'd expect from homebrew, but it's miles more capable than the previous iteration

Colin Gross

@MikeQ But can you sac exp to make magic items?

MikeQ

@ColinGross This is for 5e, not 3.5e

kviiri

Alchemist is one of those character concepts that's really cool and everyone wants to have one eventually but is quite difficult to fit in both of the shoes (mechanics and flavor) at the same time

Colin Gross

@MikeQ Yeah. So what did you substitute for the power of making magic items at the cost of exp?

MikeQ

@ColinGross I substituted 5e for 3.5e

Problem solved

Colin Gross

2:44 PM

@MikeQ So there's a a factor of 1.5 between the two and you might need a finder to get the path between them?

Anaphory

@kviiri Our alchemist is somewhat similar to a sorcerer in mechanics (strongly reflavoured), with AoE cantrips (“bombs”), reagents substituting spell slots/magic points, and most non-cantrip stuff initially restricted to “target: self” with expansion options (experimenting with potions she drinks). If I remember correctly, I'm neither GM nor player…

And it took reworking an existing homebrew from the interwebz and then significantly changing that after a few sessions of play to get to the state it's in at the moment.

Colin Gross

@Anaphory Can they make magic items?

Anaphory

A limited contemporary number of one-use delayed spell effects re-flavoured as potions.

kviiri

@Anaphory I based an Alchemist playbook for a AW-DW hybrid I was making, ages ago, on the Hoarder playbook in AW1e extended. I think it fit the concept kinda well

Anaphory

I can see that work.

kviiri

2:51 PM

The Hoarder basically has a hoard that allows them to get items out of it (although the hoard is something like a person of its own, and wants the items back...). It gives them flexibility, but also compels the Hoarder to acquire more rare items to sate the Hoard's ever-growing hunger.

I basically dropped the whole psychological "the hoard has a will of its own" aspect and instead made it "your collection of ingredients", with the idea being that the Alchemist'd periodically notice opportunities to replenish their "pouch" with some special ingredient.

I never got to run it, and I never got it finished, really.... I didn't really have a clear vision on what I wanted

Ben

Evening all

kviiri

@Ben Hi o/

Ben

Just finished the level 20 campaign with my Minotaur Barbarian. I annoyed the enemy into surrendering

3

The enemy was an orc wizard, a human paladin, and a Goliath Eldritch knight. By the third time the wizard was revived, and the 4th time I refused to go down (relentless rage kept me alive), as well as the constant counterspelling from the rest of the party, they decided it would be easier to just surrender

We also set up session 0 for out next campaign, and I created a green dragonborn monk, with a sickle that could turn into a dagger (ok'd by the DM - no added bonuses, just flavour).

I just need to come up with a dragonborn name that is based off "Tommy Oliver"

kviiri

Tommy O'Lizard?

Ben

Hahaha. It's not a bad start

Yuuki

3:06 PM

@Ben What are the rules for Dragonborn names?

Side note, I really enjoy that there are different naming rules for each race (and sub-race) in FFXIV.

BESW

@Ben Was he named Weeble?

kviiri

@Ben We were playing Stellaris multiplayer, I was playing a megacorp of reptiles called Lizards of the Coast. My planets included Newt York, Scalyfornia and Monitoronto.

Ben

@kviiri that is fantastic haha

@Yuuki Honestly not sure

kviiri

I remember struggling with reptile puns quite fast though... I think I ran so dry I had to put in Reptîle-de-France

Yuuki

@Ben At some point, he needs to betray the party, undergo redemption, and become a white dragonborn with a talking sword.

Ben

3:11 PM

@Yuuki that's the idea haha

Yuuki

And then show up in numerous other adventuring parties.

I think my favorite part of Dino Thunder was when Tommy became the Black Ranger and he complains about having to buy a whole new set of clothes for that color.

Ben

And his presence just be expected, and welcomed

@Yuuki haha yes!

MikeQ

@Ben In sadder news, my friend who was preparing a grand 40k epic TTRPG has postponed it indefinitely

It was going to be a crossover Rogue Trader / Dark Heresy / possibly other systems because we'd change perspective between concurrent adventuring parties (inquisition, space pirates, etc)

Rubiksmoose

I've had a very weird stack week. I've convinced someone their answer was wrong somehow by agreeing with it and now I put an answer that as soon as I admitted was wrong starts getting upvotes...

MikeQ

@Ben And before you ask, yes, I said postponing the game was heresy

Rubiksmoose

3:25 PM

And I might add, those upvotes robbing me of getting the badge for deleting an answer at -3 score.

@MikeQ at first I thought you might be playing Paranoia (conflating heresey and treason)

Ben

@MikeQ aww maaan :( so close! Lol

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose For me, an answer I wrote on my mobile five minutes after waking up, still a bit groggy and feverish, turned out to be my best scoring answer so far by a large margin

MikeQ

@Rubiksmoose Let's all do the friendly thing and downvote it

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri hah! that's great.

kviiri

there's a few comment-suggested amendments I'd like to make to the answer, in a sense, but I think its relative terseness has an appeal to me and I'm not sure if I want to ruin it :P

MikeQ

3:29 PM

@Rubiksmoose Alternatively, I have some questions without an accepted answer; feel free to provide a silly answer that we can happily downvote to -3

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri hahaha I did that once in response to the question about how to tell if something is on a spell list and my very short answer said: if it's on a spell list. Then I hemmed and hawed and decided that more was better and added many many words lol

@MikeQ what a kind offer!

@Bloodcinder I might even recommend you put an answer on that related question if things shake down ok for it because honestly that one doesn't seem to be answered fully to my eye.

And it might be easy to adapt your answer (or Naut's ) to that one.

kviiri

3:45 PM

brb

Bloodcinder

@Rubiksmoose I'll consider it. I'm sort of confused about Miniman's answer on the related question. It's not that I'm predisposed to thinking it's wrong... I just don't follow the logic. I don't understand what the words are saying.

Rubiksmoose

@Bloodcinder I'm in exactly the same boat. There seems to be several logical steps we are not getting.

Anaphory

4:26 PM

Which one do I want to try first? Ryuutama, Do: Pilgrims, Chuubo's Wish Granting Engine, Golden Sky Stories, or some other game in a similar vein as these?

Bloodcinder

@Rubiksmoose I posted an answer to the older question. It's different enough that my answers to the two questions aren't especially similar, but they come to the same conclusion, just emphasizing the important take-away message for each question.

David Coffron

5:20 PM

I know this question has like 4 duplicates. Just cant find them

Sdjz

@DavidCoffron this one is pretty close

David Coffron

I accidentally uses the wrong clipboard link in my dupehammer. Grr mobile

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron alas, probably not a duplicate but it will be the same answer.

David Coffron

Yeah. That's what I realized too. shrug the related link is good enough

Rubiksmoose

For sure.

@Bloodcinder great answer +1

@DavidCoffron stupid comment editing time limits.

oof that retainers question looks super messy.

Colin Gross

5:52 PM

@Rubiksmoose It does not sound like a fun table to game at.

It can be tough to hang out with friends that have diverging political views for long periods of time let alone to try to play a role playing game.

Bloodcinder

@Rubiksmoose Thanks. It's still gotten a downvote for whatever reason.

Rubiksmoose

@Bloodcinder weird.

Colin Gross

@Bloodcinder You need more downvotes? I usually only do that for @Rubiksmoose, but I can add one if you need me to.

Bloodcinder

@ColinGross Does the question really have to do with the politics of the players, or is it just about being in a situation where one character is "the boss" but that character's player doesn't want to flex boss muscles at the table? I'm not clear on it.

I'll pass, thanks.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross oooo a special bargain. You don't often have a chance to get downvotes this cheap!

Colin Gross

5:59 PM

@Bloodcinder That's what I'm wondering as well. I get the impression it's a combination of bossy pants and my guy syndrome on all sides of the situation.

Rubiksmoose

@Bloodcinder unfortunately the answer is probably some combination of both.

It's really really hard to tell though

Colin Gross

I think the divergent politics likely make for ample opportunities to come to lager heads. The problem seems to be how to resolve those impasses.

Rubiksmoose

For all the text there is, there aren't actually a lot of pertinent details giving an idea of what is actually happening at the table

Bloodcinder

That's why I stopped answer questions about social issues. I think it's hard to have experience with a similar enough situation, and I wouldn't consider myself an expert on having an agreeable personality.

I'm kinda not sure how anyone can answer the question without 1) having run a game in which one character was the boss and 2) also having had social dynamic problems in the same game.

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose I winced a bit reading it

Sad how many people have a bad time with RPGs, or cause other people to.

Colin Gross

6:03 PM

@Bloodcinder I don't think having first hand experience with a table top boss character is required to have an informed and useful take on the situation. There's plenty of real world examples and experiences that could be referenced or drawn upon.

Rubiksmoose

Yeah it does make me sad. Especially looking in from outside and there's nothing I can do to try to help

Bloodcinder

@ColinGross I guess what I'm suggesting is it sounds like an issue for an interpersonal expert... except also there's too much RPG context to not involve RPG expertise.

Colin Gross

@Bloodcinder Like a puzzle wrapped in an ~~enema~~... enigma

GreySage

@Bloodcinder We need a new TTRPGInterpersonalIssues stack

3

@ColinGross Where exactly are you putting that puzzle?

Bloodcinder

@GreySage And MurderHobos.SE

Colin Gross

6:05 PM

@GreySage Well it's puzzle in the middle of a ~~sh...~~ crappy situation.

Also doesn't seem likely that the OP is going to come back and edit their question into an answerable form.

Bloodcinder

7:03 PM

@ColinGross It's only been 2 hours.

Colin Gross

@Bloodcinder True, but I got the impression the OP was rather frustrated with the site.

Bloodcinder

Ah, noted.

Colin Gross

Added to the stewing on an issue that seems like a boiler... my bet is on (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Bloodcinder

Our site does tend to work out like this: "I know you're very frustrated with your frustrating tabletop situation, but can you please stop for a moment and comply with our rigorous expectations? Kthx~"

Colin Gross

@Bloodcinder It's the same on other stacks. "I know you want to punch your monitor at the moment, but could you make a minimal reproducible example so that we can run the code ourselves?"

Bloodcinder

7:07 PM

Oh, I'm not complaining. But I can super understand why our policies make the search for a solution even more frustrating.

Colin Gross

Cost of having nice answers for those that google later?

GreySage

@ColinGross Cost of actually being able to get any useful answers.

Colin Gross

True.

Xirema

Yiiiiiikes that Retainer question.

I'm not sure whether I'm pleased or upset that I can't read the now-deleted comments.

Colin Gross

7:36 PM

@Xirema I was going to take a stab at an answer without trying to further upset the OP.

But it's not really in an answerable state. The question asked on the face of it, is how to RP a character asserting their nobility... which is basically "well my character would do this"... which is my guy syndrome. So not a very interesting answer.

My impression is that the underlying question is "how do I bring the other player to heel"... which is a more interesting issue to deal with.

kviiri

A propos I made this answer to a similar question, although with less drama and more balance, way back: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/109671/…

Yuuki

@ColinGross ... that's gonna be a yikes from me

kviiri

To be frank, I'm very fond of experimenting with asymmetry in RPG characters... but DnD is not an easy place to try out gimmick characters

Colin Gross

@kviiri That's a crappy RP setup generally. For protect the pawn, king, or whatever escort missions, I'll hand out the NPC to the players. The NPC will have some pretty straight forward goal, fear, and motivate printed. Extra points awarded for playing the NPC as well as their character true.

@kviiri I concur

Xirema

@ColinGross Yeah. I don't like assuming bad faith on the part of people who ask questions here, but it really does feel like the OP is someone who just wants to lash out at their fellow player because they can't cope with their political beliefs, and is trying to massage their desires into a "Thermian Argument"-shaped query.

Colin Gross

7:47 PM

@kviiri I think that could be made to work if very very early on.. session 1 or 2, the king or hot potato gives up whatever the real reason is they're being protected. Like, "listen guys, it's just the enchantment in the crown. This is the real McGuffin."

That way they went from thing to be protected to interesting and usable distraction to the foes. lets the players do some neat fake outs, hail marys, etc

@Xirema That's possible too. I find that's not usually the case with my politically divergent friends. The political issues just make for more places where we butt heads. Lashing out as a result could be their method of dealing with disagreement.

Yuuki

8:03 PM

@kviiri This is why all of my characters come with acne.

kviiri

8:42 PM

@EnderLook Regarding your question of XP-farming, such exploits are generally much serious of a concern in TTRPGs because the general expectation is that the GM'll kick you out of the table if you start misbehaving :-)

Which often means these rules aren't actually as well fleshed out as they would be in some other types of games

Ender Look

Oh

I just wanted to know. I'm reading the Monster Manual and as I read new questions, ideas and exploits I occur. I'm curious about the limits of the system!

kviiri

Most GMs I know don't even give out XP for killing monsters anymore, they only use the monster XP values for encounter budgeting (it's a technique in DMG for estimating encounter difficulty based on the number of monsters and their total XP value)

Ender Look

Anyway, the question that marked mine as duplicated isn't the same. I ask about reviving creatures and flameskulls while the other ask about kill alive creatures and then animate them as undead.

GreySage

@EnderLook There are no real limits, there are just things that aren't handled well.

Ender Look

@kviiri Why they don't use XP anymore?

kviiri

8:46 PM

@EnderLook Well, I think resurrection is kinda the same, but as for Flameskulls, I think if you limit your question to that there's a single correct answer.

Ender Look

@kviiri Ok

kviiri

@EnderLook It's just easier to award levels for quest progression

Yuuki

And you don't have to spend a lot of time tallying up how much experience you have.

kviiri

Less numbers to track, less math to do, no incentive to go hunting for extra goblins just to gain more XP

And you can control the pace of leveling as you like. Give more levels if the party wants higher-end powers, less levels if they want to stick to lower-level fantasy

Ender Look

@kviiri Would someone want less levels??

Xirema

8:50 PM

D&D doesn't standardize a way of offering XP for non-combat scenarios, so it's very difficult to build an adequately satisfying levelling curve that doesn't rely on players Murderhoboing.

kviiri

@EnderLook Yeah. One of the most popular alternative rulesets for... I think it's for 3.5e? Is called "e6" and its main hook is that the maximum PC level is 6.

GreySage

@EnderLook Exp isn't necessary in 5e. Back in the original DnD days Exp was a resource and a way to keep score. In 5e it's more about the party working together, not competing, so eliminating Exp and just assigning the correct levels for the challenge is simpler, easier, and gets good results.

Ender Look

ohh

kviiri

One way to understand why someone'd want less levels is to compare DnD with something like a more traditional heroic fantasy like Lord of the Rings. If you try to map LotR characters to DnD levels, you'll notice their typical opponents are fairly low-key in DnD scales

Ender Look

That is interesting

kviiri

8:55 PM

They fight orcs, and bigger orcs. Occasionally trolls, and they're treated as a SERIOUS threat. While high-level DnD characters can be expected to fight beings that aren't even of this world: rogue angels, beasts from beyond the stars, maybe even a god.

This is not to say that there's anything wrong wanting your DnD heroes be more like the heroes of the universe than the savior of the realm, of course.

GreySage

@kviiri Just different play/game/story styles

kviiri

@GreySage Yea

Yuuki

Yeah, when you reach those higher levels, you kinda have to deal with extradimensional threats simply because those are the only things that will challenge your power budget. And personally, I would rather not have that responsibility.

kviiri

It's kinda easy to lose touch with the scale as levels grow

Ender Look

Non-related question. How much increases the difficulty of an encounter if an enemy is always casting cure wounds and healing word to another enemy? Also, the healer is a good person brainwashed, so the PCs won't (or at least shouldn't) kill him, since he is an innocent person being manipulated.

kviiri

8:59 PM

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistics, a planet exploding is just CGI. That sort of thing.

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