TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

10:00

If you want them to remain invested in the hobby, letting them go from your game is probably a healthy thing from them -- they're not a good fit and are not equipped to adapt, and keeping them in the game is going to make everyone unhappy. (Or everyone except them unhappy, which may eventually erupt in their face.)

People need to be in healthy group dynamics to enjoy our hobby.

Let them go from the group but also point them to where they can find others who'll take them in (if you know of it or even need to say it -- I assume you met up on a game advertising board), and tell them not to lie about their age 'cause it'll lead to loads more problems just like this down the road.

You can tell them they're being let go because of the age difference -- you really were looking for players who were at least 18 and it's not working out trying to get them to have the qualities you were looking for.

kviiri

Stay in touch with them for a while after and ask if they found another group, so they know you care

Patta

10:29

Definitely, that was one of my main goals, I want him to stay interested. He applied via the Roll20 looking for group feature, yeah, so he knows where he can find other groups (I'll point it out anyway) - Thanks for the input, I'll probably still ask the question on the main site, as it seems like a good question to have (and more input is always appreciated, I have some difficulties with kicking people out :D)

kviiri

10:40

Yea, main site is much better at curation than chat

Happy news just keep piling up, on the weekend I got my thesis code to work and now I can play the entire Maple Leaf Rag without consistent bumblings :P

(that took only what, ten years?)

Joel Harmon

11:05

@kviiri I'm sure my definition of "typical" is quite skewed. In this case, 7th Sea is a system I've heard of other than on this site. A different definition is "I think my FLGS carries that".

doppelgreener

@kviiri hooray!!

kviiri

@JoelHarmon Haha, gotcha :)

doppelgreener

@kviiri counterproposal: there aren't "typical" systems any more than there is a "typical" movie or a "typical" book.

kviiri

I'm a bit pessimistic I guess, I think people who regularly play non-DnD systems are a rarity...

Joel Harmon

@kviiri I think people who regularly play DnD systems are a rarity...

kviiri

11:08

@JoelHarmon I assume we're talking of different scopes here :)

Joel Harmon

As far as systems that lend themselves to West Marches, I'd say low party cohesion would be helpful (alternately, Dungeon World style Bonds would be harmful, as you don't know party makeup). It would also be important to have level not matter all that much, or encourage people to have a stable of characters to bring out, based on the expected level.

doppelgreener

It's the 800-pound gorilla for a reason; it's the flagship game, the first one people tend to get in touch with, and the marketing and community attitude is that it does absolutely everything or is even synonymous with tabletop RPG.

Joel Harmon

Since 7S is a point buy system, it's much smoother than your typical level based system like DnD.

doppelgreener

It is definitely not common for people to move on to trying other games, not least of which because people will think it takes equal or greater amounts of work to learn the other games and invested all this effort learning D&D.

kviiri

@JoelHarmon The reason I think 7th Sea is amenable to West Marches (or a similar style) is that it already prescribes a rather similar mode of gameplay with the Stories

doppelgreener

11:10

waffles

kviiri

@doppelgreener thanks :D

doppelgreener

you're welcome

kviiri

ESL privilege! I can make mistakes and it's ok x)

doppelgreener

that's definitely not just an ESL mixup

see also: inflammable. (sounds like it means nonflammable. actually means flammable.)

kviiri

Anyway, players come up with Stories for their characters, and the GM makes them happen. If a player is not present, they can follow someone else's story

@doppelgreener I used to be a pedant regarding this, but given the nature of the word, I've switched to "flammable" and "nonflammable". Safety > etymological correctness.

doppelgreener

11:12

Any particular reason you're going for West Marches? It's one of many potential approaches to episodic gameplay, and you don't need to do that one specifically.

@kviiri I think that's what people have decided to do generally.

kviiri

@doppelgreener it was Joel's suggestion, although to a slightly different problem

We're playing 7th Sea and it seems we'll have to deal with more player absences than before.

(or play only twice a year or somesuch)

Joel Harmon

As I recall, the original context is "We'd like to play 7th Sea, but Bob recently had a kid and can't be certain of time commitments. How can we still play?"

Also, one player disfavors oneshots for some reason, IIRC?

kviiri

I'm not really averse to playing with a wildly varying level of attendance and I think 7th Sea supports it well anyway. The actual problem is that the people are used to "everyone is present, everytime" paradigm where absences are an exception, and one of them (not the daddy btw) even called me unfair for proposing the idea that we play more often than the dadman can make it.

doppelgreener

I can see west marches as being a way to explore difference from that default.

Joel Harmon

It was the best suggestion I know of to handle that kind of thing, and nobody else seems to have mentioned it.

doppelgreener

11:17

The way we did it was with a lot less than all the west marches style expectations: Our players were members of, or connected to, an organisation with an overall goal. We had missions and goals to achieve, and we might know one session what we were going to do the next. Whoever is around for the session can go on one of those missions we know we need to do.

kviiri

I'm just not seeing how it solves the problem

Joel Harmon

Unfortunately, I can't back this up with real world experience, as I've never been involved in a successful West Marches game.

doppelgreener

It has a norm of episodic mission play, but your group still needs to get used to it.

You can also point out how it isn't working to wait on everyone every time, and that other groups (like ours, that you're in direct contact with) do this and it works well and not at anyone's expense.

kviiri

I've been talking about the pointlessness of the ideal where we schedule games so everyone makes it, and wind up playing almost never (and then someone's sick/hung over/with kid trouble etc anyway and has to wait several weeks for another shot to play)

Joel Harmon

@kviiri I think the point is you can make Newdad feel included by always trying to include him. If/when he falls through, you can seamlessly switch to another sub-group in the world and continue play. That way, he doesn't have to feel bad that his friends aren't having fun just because he's not available.

kviiri

11:20

@JoelHarmon I'm trying to say that I don't believe simply changing the game solves the FOMO (in the short term at least)

Joel Harmon

@kviiri I don't really know you, and I certainly don't know your players, so if reframing the social problem that is scheduling won't help, then I am out of ideas.

doppelgreener

@kviiri My thinking is propose a trial run in a new game/setting for a limited period of, say, six weeks, where you meet up regularly and whoever's there plays the session.

Propose that after that trial run, the group will discuss how it went, whether it works well or not, if they'd like to keep doing things this way, if they'd like to change anything, etc.

kviiri

Yeah, I just fear I'll be seen as unfair for proposing that

doppelgreener

Pick a game and system where it's pretty easy to do an episodic structure and where it's relatively easy to account for someone not being able to make it or 1-2 unexpected people turning up. (Even if that means taking a few minutes at the start of the night to adjust preparations.)

You might be seen that way by that person. Ask them to see how it goes. It's a trial run and you don't have to keep going after the trial ends. If it won't work out you'll find that out. You'll only be doing it on the nights not everyone's present for the full game anyway, unless everyone's present but opts to continue the episodic game. Nobody misses out, and the by-design structure of this game will be to be able to play regardless of who's in attendance.

Joel Harmon

@kviiri Try talking to Newdad one on one about this, to see if he really is comfortable with it. It should be much harder to argue it being unfair if you have buy in from the guy it's supposedly unfair to.

doppelgreener

11:31

Right, every potential member of this game -- including Newdad -- should be in on this conversation.

You're proposing the trial to all of them, Newdad included, with the explicit acknowledgement that some members will be present more often than not, and members like Newdad may only be able to be there infrequently, but it's designed to support play with or without any one person being there, so that one or two people can be absent without holding up the entire game.

The critical mass in our games was having 4 people turn up, so 1 GM + 3 players. Anything at least that was fine. When it was just 3 people we'd often do one-shots instead.

Patta

Yeah, two players (+ GM) in such a situation is not that ideal in my experience. Might depend on the game (and the type of "adventures" they will have) though.

doppelgreener

If it's 1 GM + 2 players, it's my experience that if we do play the main game it's smaller-scoped, more intimate sessions.

e.g. exploring the dynamic between two characters for the fun of the players playing them.

Patta

Yeah, we did that once with the Fallout-Westmarches Style game I'm currently running, and it spawned a lot of insiders and great chracter dynamic between the two people that played.

Helped that the two players were good friends in Real-Life (it's a Roll20 game), with people that don't know each other that well I would have probably said "let's do something else instead"

BESW

We’re adding a list of Fate RPG actual plays to the site. Add your favorites to the list. https://goo.gl/forms/HJ2P2HHVayCTVlcC2

Tweeted by Fate_SRD on July 9, 2018 at 2:53 AM

3

Patta

Ah, nice to see Nebula Jazz on there :D Also Dresden Files. I'm still waiting for the german release of that one, should be soon.

Patta

11:58

Current working title for my question: "What is the best way to kick someone new to the hobby out of my group without alienating them from the hobby" - Is it only me, or does that seem like an "opinion based" question? Though most interpersonal questions about RPG Groups are, I'd say... I am a bit torn about the question title :D

BESW

8

A: Should we be answering the question, or the question posed in the description?

The post body is the actual question, and the other part is just the title. Questions regularly have their titles adjusted to match the real question in the body, while the reverse (changing the body to match the title) is done only in unusual circumstances. Answers should answer the question — ...

Questions shouldn't get closed because the title sounds opinion-based, if the actual body text of the question is not opinion-based.

doppelgreener

title could also be “Kicking someone out of the group without alienating them from the hobby”, since the title doesn't have to be a question at all, just a summary of the question body

Patta

12:29

That's a good point, that I had not thought of. Thanks.

Patta

12:49

I don't know why, but every time I post a question (which is not that often), I feel like the question is kind of "rambly" :D

Most of the time, people tell me it's fine, but still...

NautArch

@Patta Looking at the last question, it is kinda rambly :)

It's not bad, but you can definitely trim details and organize it better.

if you were so interested :)

Patta

13:03

Oh, definitely, when I have the time :D

I tend to talk a lot, I guess that translates to the questions, too :D

NautArch

@Patta information isn't a bad thing to provide :) But structuring it so you have a clear question as well as supporting information can help in clarity.

Personally, I'd suggest leading with your question and then supplying the relevant additional information. Re-read (and read it out loud) to see if the presentation makes sense and is intelligible :) You'll 'hear' it sound wrong before you read it sounding wrong.

That's generally how I proofread things (outloud.)

Patta

13:17

That will have to wait until I'm home, though. My colleagues would probably object to me starting to read my question out loud :P

NautArch

@Patta hehe :) Nothing wrong with talking to yourself!

In general, that's a good proofing trick.

kviiri

13:31

I had the strangest sense of déjà vu today

I started pondering something really pointless: whether Scott Joplin's The Entertainer is named such as a reference to entertainers or whether the piece is actually intended to be the titular "entertainer". And I feel like I've seen this on the Hot Network Questions sidebar.

nitsua60

Hmm... I'd never thought of that second interpretation. As in, "uh-oh, I'm losing the crowd. Better pull out the Entertainer."

kviiri

It's not common for pieces to have this ambiguous names!

Music named after music is also tricky

David Coffron

13:46

@NautArch and here I've been using special.water resistant fabrics when all I had to do was read the question out loud... :P

goodguy5

5e.

How long would it take an arrow fired straight up into the air to land?

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 to fall?

goodguy5

yes

nitsua60

@goodguy5 Shortbow or longbow?

goodguy5

longbow

kviiri

13:52

5e has no mechanics for that, so you'll probably want to either run physics simulations or just eyeball some appropriate number of rounds suited for your purpose

Rubiksmoose

IRL that would depend on the angle you fired it at. There are no game rules that I am aware of that help.

kviiri

What for?

goodguy5

well. max range is 600 feet, right?

Rubiksmoose

Yeah.

nitsua60

@goodguy5 About 12 1/4 sec.

goodguy5

13:53

so, 600 up.

500 down
next round

nitsua60

(Ignoring air resistance which, for a projectile designed/evolved to be really good at cutting through the air, doesn't seem ridiculous.)

From max range we can figure launch velocity is ~200 fps, rise-fall time follows from that.

Rubiksmoose

(oops I missed the straight up part)

kviiri

I'm still interested in what this is for

Rubiksmoose

Me too lol

kviiri

I mean, I wouldn't try to make it particularly realistic in most cases

David Coffron

13:56

@goodguy5 I thought the 600 feet thing was supposed to be a parabolic arc so you can shoot it 600 feet away (but with disadvantage since it's harder to aim...). I guess you could allow it RAW to be shot "straight" at long range

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Fwiw the rule on falling 500 feet/round applies to creatures not objects. (I'm assuming that is where the 500 down comes from).

goodguy5

it's not "for" anything. just curious after another question asking about arrows

David Coffron

@goodguy5 also are you attacking the space 600 feet up or just shooting an arrow?

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron what's the difference in this case?

David Coffron

@goodguy5 the ranged weapon attack rules only apply to attacks

kviiri

13:57

@goodguy5 In that case I think the only good answer is mu

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron then a square 600 feet up

NautArch

@goodguy5 what's the purpose/goal for doing this?

VTC opinion-based?

David Coffron

@goodguy5 It reaches that square within the 6 seconds. The GM decides what happens to an arrow that misses.

goodguy5

Okay, I can work this into a question.

Rubiksmoose

2 mins ago, by goodguy5

it's not "for" anything. just curious after another question asking about arrows

goodguy5

13:59

well...a question for chat

wouldn't be on stack

NautArch

@goodguy5 ok

goodguy5

I only have two arrows. I attack a target 600 feet straight up. (or any limited number)

How soon can I retrieve 50% of my arrows?

NautArch

@goodguy5 Are you the DM?

goodguy5

answers for yes and no.

Yes, to start with.

NautArch

@goodguy5 What mechanic do you use for arrow retrieval in general?

goodguy5

14:01

@NautArch There's a raw mechanic, iirc.

Patta

50% (rounded down, I think) is raw, iirc

NautArch

@goodguy5 Yup, just didn't know if you used it or hand-waived ammunition

Patta

could be an optional rule, though

kviiri

How much does ammunition cost then?

Hm ok, the rule says that one can search the battlefield after the battle to recover half of the lost ammunition.

okay, arrows and other ammo are listed in the adventuring gear table.

goodguy5

ah. I thought they took out the verbiage of "after the battle"

David Coffron

14:08

@goodguy5 yeah there is. You recover them "at the end of the battle" if you spend a minute. I doubt the arrow will take a minute to come back

Sir Cinnamon

But it must be searched for

David Coffron

Yeah. If you spend a minute searching*

NautArch

13

Q: Is ammunition recoverable and reusable?

In games I DM, it is common after combat for players to tell me that they go around and recover the items that expended as ranged attacks. While this certainly makes sense for a hand axe or thrown hammer, at some point bolts and arrows should not be reusable (through either loss or damage and def...

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron according to Nitsua's IRL calculation it will take 12ish seconds for an arrow to fall.

@NautArch I honestly don't think this is opionion based.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Alerting you to Spelljammer rumors for 5e, which I suspect may be good news for you ...

@BESW And it's a very good question to ask, in terms of being topical to TTRPG and online play. I'd say that it's one of the better questions I've seen in a while, in terms of "a good answer on this will help many people with a similar problem"

NautArch

14:22

@Rubiksmoose How does one judge "optimal"?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch " solution that reduces the amount of mechanical thrash (i.e. I can apply the rules of 5e as-is without too much deviation from that) and makes it an easy and enjoyable experience for the player"

The word optimal only appears in the title

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose And taht's what I think might be opinion-based? It's unclear what level of deviation/work/management/control the player thinks will be fun.

goodguy5

Thanks for the mental exercise boiz

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Also true.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose and the answer so far have been underwhelming in supporting evidence or explanation (in my opinion)

KorvinStarmast

14:27

@Ben Hmm, what's the latin phrase for "thus ever to murder hoboes!" ... which is a riff on "Sic semper tyrannis" from the Virginia state flag. Someone in the world of RPG has to have coined a latin murderhobo term ....

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch also true.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose and that doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies that this is answerable to Stack standards.

A Very Large Bear

@KorvinStarmast My Latin is really rusty, but I'm coming up with sic sember et caedis in vagos

KorvinStarmast

@ravery "You've started this, can you finish it?" Might that fit?

A Very Large Bear

@KorvinStarmast Which is roughly thus always murderous vagrants

SPavel

14:35

Were there even homeless people in the Roman state?

Or did everyone on that socio-economic stratum end up a slave

A Very Large Bear

reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/67jm3s/…

Sir Cinnamon

I imagine there were people who did not own homes but I doubt there were "beggars" that didnt become slaves

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener thanks for the very good revamp of my meta Q/A on character build questions. You did a bang-up job :)

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose cheers :D

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast in curious if they use the same (or similar) adapted rules that I use. Which I can't find for the life of me

SPavel

14:38

@AVeryLargeBear Hm

Wandering around for work and sleeping under bridges, that sounds familiar... ;)

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose thanks for putting together that guide in the first place.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener No problem! It is something that I had been intending to do for a while. I'm glad you posted yours so that I finally just did it.

KorvinStarmast

@AVeryLargeBear Why sember versus semper? Does that word get changed based on what it is modifying? Semper fidelis and semper paratus are slogans stuck in my head

@DavidCoffron I hope that they have been playtesting them.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast they should hire me as a consultant. Ive done plenty of playtesting for 5e Spelljammer (started with rules I found online that didn't quite work, made 3 different versions of my own homebrew rules before I found something beautiful)

Rubiksmoose

14:55

@DavidCoffron Found online? Or found as in found through playtesting?

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose found a set online and then designed my own when i decided those rules didn't quite work

Oh the beautiful ones I made. Tried to find them on a chatizen request (I think it was nitsua) but couldnt

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Ah ok. Yeah that's what I was referring to.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron do you have them written down, or are you looking for the file you had them stored in?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch with respect to your [mirror image answer](https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/78006/28591) I think you have a commonly made error in there. "Basically you have the statement "If you make an attack roll, it is an attack."

Logic dictates that the inverse is correct as well." This is not true though. For example, grappling is an attack but involves no attack roll.

doppelgreener

(markdown doesn't work in multiline messages)

Rubiksmoose

15:08

@doppelgreener gall darn it I always forget that.

@NautArch even our good friend JC has made that pretty clear here for example. (also in a bunch of others)

ravery

@KorvinStarmast close, maybe more along the lines of "All rats have their day"?

KorvinStarmast

@ravery Heh, nice. Why should only dogs have their day, right? :)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Although that does have the specific call-out about being an attack. It's an exception that proves the rule?

ravery

@KorvinStarmast Are you famiiar with Hoard of the Dragon Queen?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Kind of. twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/836410416100061184

@NautArch To be clear, I think your answer is absolutely correct. It is just this particular bit of (il)logic has tripped up many people.

NautArch

15:16

@Rubiksmoose ah, that's a good point. I may delete my answer given the chosen answer is also correct and my "inverse logic" is specifically called out by crawford as incorrect :)

Rubiksmoose

I had a bit of a tiff about this very thing in another Q&A

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I remember that I had to get away from treating the vehicles like a special kind of creature because the 5e mechanics just didnt mesh well (that's what the one i found online). I remember doing a Apparatus of kwalish thing but it became a bit repetitive. The final product was something of a mix between mech and independent creature with combats involving hazard tables and the like

@KorvinStarmast they were in a file on my old PC, but I wrote them down first (my old PC is bolt available to me anymore)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Yeah that is up to you. I think you could patch it up so it works fine still though. The rule is an attack is something with an attack roll or that says it is an attack.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Hmm, I may just take out the logic bit.

it's less strong of an argument, but the votes already think it's less strong than the chosen argument

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch That seems reasonable and a very easy fix.

KorvinStarmast

15:25

@DavidCoffron Seeing some backpedaling, and apparently the rumor is still in the soft and mushy stage. Late July announcement should clear it up.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Don't love it, but I think the chosen answer is the best one anyway.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I left a comment, but if they don't update I may leave my own answer under What counts as an attack?

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast eh. If they don't do it there is no chance they mess it up at least :)

KorvinStarmast

15:40

@DavidCoffron It appears to be a popular setting among the target audience for 5e (in terms of AD&D 2e players who really enjoyed that edition).

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Xander does mention it in their comments - i think it might be okay to add it in?

goodguy5

why did that empowered mirror image question get deleted?

NautArch

@goodguy5 dunno, you have a link?

goodguy5

I get a 404 when I try to get to it

NautArch

what's the URL?

goodguy5

15:51

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/125963/…

NautArch

@goodguy5 deleted by user

goodguy5

ah

NautArch

after Hey I can Chan commented "It's cool to have questions about the same thing in 3.5e and Pathfinder separately, but I don't think answers to this question will be any different from the same Pathfinder question here."

goodguy5

ah

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Done. They can always revert it I suppose? I always feel weird significantly editing another user's answer.

David Coffron

15:59

I keep getting banner alerts for the SE app when I'm literally reading the chat it's alerting me of lol

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, that's why I italicized "think" :) But they do support agreement with it in their comments

@DavidCoffron I got rid of that app, it was more annoying than it was useful

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oh really? The app certainly has its flaws but I find it easier to use than mobile most of the time.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I think for chat it was better, but for questions it was annoying. It's been awhile since I uninstalled, so maybe it's improved?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oh for chat I definitely use the mobile version.

Though they are really the same. It just helps ot have chat open in a mobile tab as opposed to having to switch back to it all the time in the SE app.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose agreed. I can window switch between chat and questions rather than tab switch in chrome. (Although some functionality is lost like viewing revisions)

They recently added easier close voting in the app though so it's getting better and better

@NautArch does the app do chat? I always use chrome

NautArch

16:49

@DavidCoffron i'm honestly not sure. It's been quite a while since I used it :)

Rubiksmoose

17:40

Wow that Counterspell question got a lot of attention real quick.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose yeah, that was surprising

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch If your spell gets CSed, since you haven't cast a spell are you still limited by the bonus action casting limitation?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose You have cast it, though (you've lost a spell slot).

and you've taken the cast a spell action

spell cast and failed is still spell cast

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch You certainly do lose a slot. I would argue that no spell was cast though.

The bonus action restriction never mentions the Cast a Spell action.

It interrupts the casting of the spell.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I think that's valid, but I'm of the belief that it's been cast. Opposing answers here

David Coffron

17:50

@Rubiksmoose counterspell says the spell has no effect. Not that it isn't cast. But it also says "the spell fails" whatever that means

(I don't think "the spell fails" has any rules definition

Is it the spell fails to work, or it fails to be cast...?)

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron No it says "the spell fails" and also "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell."

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose but the reaction trigger is "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell" Reactions happen after the trigger which means if the spell has a small casting time, it is already cast no?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose It has a lot of language differences within it. But given that you have attempted to cast a spell and used a spells lot, I generally believe the language that says you just tried to cast a spell.

David Coffron

It interrupts long casting time but I think short casts count and just fail

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron In this case though it is the seeing of the casting that must complete, not the casting itself.

David Coffron

17:56

@Rubiksmoose Sigh. Reaction trigger language again.

I don't think "spell fails" means the casting fails but the effect is null

Interrupting is imo referring to longer casting times

Basically this answer:

24

A: If a spell cast from a Spell Scroll is Counterspelled, is the scroll consumed?

Counterspell causes a spell to fail and a scroll to be consumed Counterspell works differently than just stopping a spell casting or scroll reading. The general case: normal interruption of spells and scrolls When a caster simply stops casting a spell before finishing, a spell slot is not expe...

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron I actually very much disagree with that. The language suggest that interrupting the casting is the very reason counterspell works to negate any spell. Otherwise, it would say something different.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose then why say it has no effect if it was never cast? Seems unnecessary to include that

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose To be fair, ONE of the sentences supports that. ANOTHER sentence supports the opposite.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch which one?

NautArch

And, in fact, you could probably say more sentences support the fail than the interrupt language.

Rubiksmoose

18:00

It fails BECAUSE it was interrupted.

It is not either/or

(or at least that is what I read from it)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose "“The spell fails and has no effect.”"

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose the at higher levels doesn't say the spell fails at all. Only: "the interrupted spell has no effect"

You may have a point

NautArch

BUt if you never cast the spell, then why has a spell slot been consumed?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Yeah "the [in-process] spell fails and has no effect" I see no contradiction there at all.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose You added that language :)

David Coffron

18:02

@NautArch you lose a slot before casting, not after (just like in longer casting times)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch hence the brackets lol. But there is nothing about saying "spell" that means that that spell is not in progress.

David Coffron

@NautArch that's his interpretation of the meaning based on the first sentence

Rubiksmoose

A spell does not only become a spell after it has been cast.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I know, but inserting your own language to support your view isn't good logic :)

Sir Cinnamon

The related question about scrolls says this: "Once the spell is cast, the words on the scroll fade, and it crumbles to dust. If the casting is interrupted, the scroll is not lost."

Rubiksmoose

18:03

I was inserting the context to show there is no contradiction. If there was a contradiction there, the sentence would have made no sense no?

NautArch

I think the language is pretty unclear overall. As the two competing answers on the Scroll question show, it can be interpreted in more than one way.

Sir Cinnamon

In my mind that implies that an interrupted cast is still a cast

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon yeah but there are conflicting answers on that question. Both highly scored

NautArch

Intent from crawford seems to support the cast idea

David Coffron

@NautArch good find

But what if its a long casting time? Does it count as cast already or not..

Sir Cinnamon

18:06

@DavidCoffron To be honest I think they both support the fact that the spell is cast

The accepted one just says "But there is an exception in the rules that even though it is cast the scroll stays"

@DavidCoffron I think so... Partially cast == cast, at least in terms of spell slots and material components right?

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon ah. I gotcha. Misread the accepted answer

Rubiksmoose

10

Q: Does a counterspelled spell still trigger Mage Slayer?

Counterspell states, You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of Casting a Spell. If the creature is Casting a Spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. This wording suggests that a successful counterspell interrupts the spell, causing it to fail. Mage Sl...

dnd-5e feats

This is also relevant but I really feel as if that answer didn't give compelling logic.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose yeah. That answer is wrong imo

Sir Cinnamon

wording on counterspell: "Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon but does it for spell scrolls (that's probably why the errata mentioned interrupting tbh)

Sir Cinnamon

18:09

@DavidCoffron IMO, yes, with the exception that the scroll is not destroyed

Why didnt they just phrase counterspell as "The spell is instantly cast with no effect"

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon That is an excellent question.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Thanks for bringing that up, I was able to find what Tim was asking about in a comment about scrolls

David Coffron

@SirCinnamon because they think "plain english" means "vague and inconsistent"

NautArch

@DavidCoffron which, to be fair, is probably accurate :)

Rubiksmoose

hahahah so true (to both of your comments)

David Coffron

18:30

@NautArch the joys of unification languages

NautArch

have y'all been following the r/thanosdidnothingwrong drama?

goodguy5

no....

what's up?

I've seen the sr, but haven't followed it.

also, stack-related can you counterspell a cantrip?

I'm asking you first to make sure it's not already asked. didn't see it in my search, but as mentioned many times, I'm bad at finding things.

NautArch

@goodguy5 They're having Thanos Snap today and banning half the sub and sending them to r/intothesoulstone

@goodguy5 Yup, you can.

goodguy5

how is that drama? seems reasonable... ish

are cantrips "spells of 3rd level or lower"?

I know other versions explained them as "0 level", but couldn't recall if 5e says that or not.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Yes it explicitly says cantrips are zero level spells. Chapter 10 PHB.

goodguy5

18:43

ah, I see. I've gotten past conflating previous editions and moved on to thinking that things I "remember" are from previous editions lol

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 Under "Spellcasting" sub head "What is a Spell" sub head "Spell Level" it says Cantrips—simple but powerful spells that characters can cast almost by rote — are level 0

goodguy5

perfect. thanks.

that's what I get for wondering things at work

NautArch

@goodguy5 I guess it's not really drama, but dramatic?

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 I have been trying to figure out if I want to MC one level into rogue to get expertise in stealth and athletics on my champion. It's that or I get that third crit chance at 15 ...

I have a decent dex, elven boots (Advantage on stealth rolls) and I think sneaking about to recon is something we'll need to do more often now that our wizard has left the game. Replacement is a Ranger.

goodguy5

isn't there a feat out there somewhere to get expertise?

Personally, I'd rather have the crit sooner. you can MC next level

@NautArch ah, fair.

KorvinStarmast

18:49

@goodguy5 Not that I am aware of, since I am not human. Half Orc Champion.

I think that prodigy is limited to humans, is it not?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Crit crit crit

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast Prerequisite: Half-elf, half-orc or human

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch The longer I fight, the more I wish I had a cloak of displacement rather than this +1 cloak of protection.

@goodguy Thanks, but I need to get the proficiency first, and weirdly enough, I took survival rather than stealth at char creation. So I need that one level in thief to get one more proficiency.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast except for those saves :) DIsplacement doesn't help you there.

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast prodigy also gives you one proficiency

KorvinStarmast

18:51

No matter how tanky I am with AC (and it's in the mid 20's) a crit from a giant hurts.

@goodguy OK, that's good, but I want two proficiencies. Athletics and stealth, since my shield master shove is used a lot.

goodguy5

well, then, it sounds like you want to multiclass into rogue

KorvinStarmast

@Naut. I get to re roll saves as a champion. Twice in a day. Indomitable.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast oooh. forgot about that!

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 If I were willing to only get one proficiency ... your idea on prodigy would be a great idea.

@goodguy5 I'll discuss with the group.

But yeah, that crit crit crit is very sweet ... at the next level.

goodguy5

how far into rogue are you going to go? just the one?

KorvinStarmast

18:55

Just the one most likely, as I don't think the campaign will go to twney ... unless we head into the vault of the drow.

goodguy5

you could stick around for that archetype

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Why do you really want stealth/athletics expertise? What armor do you wear?

KorvinStarmast

I use it for jumping, grappling, shoving, climbing, and more shoving and grappling. With an enlarge potion, I can shove giants all over the room.

But they have athletics proficiency, and high str, so I need a pretty decent boost to handle them.

I wear half plate and have medium armor master. I can be a little bit sneaky, but I want to be a bit more sneakier.

Our major weapons damage dealer is the Barbarian GWM Bear Totem.

goodguy5

terrifying

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Or, I could just accept my fate as is and get Sentinel at 16 and be more of a sticky tank.

@goodguy5 With 20 str (got that at 14) and +5 Prof Bonus, I'd be +15 to all shoving or grappling checks. Frost and Fire Giants are still tough, but my plusses at that point would be more than theirs.

Frost is +9, Fire is +11.

NautArch

19:00

@KorvinStarmast All excellent reasons :)

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Of course, if we run into a black pudding, I am bloody useless.

goodguy5

nah, just keep splitting it

they can only get so small

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy I carry a Warhammer as a back up to my sword and board; the twist is that I have a cursed sword of vengeance, and the party still has not figured out why I won't use a javelin but just go charging after the enemy if any of them hurts me. (GM and I have agreed to keep this on the Q T).

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast so basically you want to counter your disadvantage on your stealth

KorvinStarmast

So my hammer attacks would be at disadvantage.

I have no disad on stealth, I want to provide cover to our rogue when she sneaks about. And our Ranger. But I can't be going "clank" all the time. MAM takes away disad on stealth checks already.

@NautArch Chatizen digression, Hal has that as his v human feat for a reason.

> Hal is our rogue surrogate ... crim background, spy, proficient with lock picks

NautArch

19:04

@KorvinStarmast halfplate gives disadvantage on stealth

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Not With Medium Armor Master. :) Feat for the win!!!!

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Blud is sneaky, but he's no rogue.

@KorvinStarmast oooooh - someone actualy used that feat! :P

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I have it on two characters. Hal, and that half orc. yeah, I am so sadly predictable. I played rogues/thieves a lot for the first five years of D&D / AD&D. Sneaky is my default.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast my first character ever was a rogue. But lately I'm more interested in Casters (minus ToA...wanting to try the opposite)

KorvinStarmast

I am sorta bummed that Blud and Hal have not yet had the chance to sneak up on anyone and surprise them. I think we'd be lethal as heck.

NautArch

19:07

@KorvinStarmast 100%

If we see another creature that speaks Giant, we'll try to set us ourselves up for victory

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Yeah; we need to set up the track/sneak attack thing, I think we can take a cyclops if we get the drop on them. Have Salty cast Vicious Mockery for Disad on attacks ... low wis cyclops ...

The Oracle

0

Q: New RPG.SE theme coming this summer

The entire SE Network is going through some redesign this year. TL;DR: giving each site a really nicely-tuned theme (color scheme, iconography, artwork) wasn't a sustainable model. This greatly slowed down some navigation redesign that's rolling out currently, so themes are being stripped down. ...

discussion site-design

goodguy5

19:34

@KorvinStarmast yea, but I mean.... you can split them down to 6 HP, then it's easy pickin's for the wizard

you have three attacks, or so. just chop chop chop

115 --> 57,57 --> 28,28,28,28

fireballable

Euch

21:12

how do i start a chat on a specific answer? i am not sure if my answer even belongs, so i'd like to start a chat regarding whether it should stay or go

Maximillian

You could open a post on the meta site and ask your question. Might work best if you're trying to get a mod's attention.

Euch

0

Q: Should questions without an affirmative answer be ignored?

Should questions that require omnipotent knowledge to truly answer be ignored, and the lack of answers be the de facto answer? For example, the question "Is their life on Mars?" You can only answer "Yes" if indeed there is life on Mars. If there truly is no life on Mars, nobody is qualified to s...

discussion

for anybody that wishes to help

lol, my question about questions is being downvoted

i just want an answer...

KorvinStarmast

@Euch I think that the suggestion was to start it at RPG.SE meta. You posted it on SO/SE meta.

@Euch Try here rpg.meta.stackexchange.com

Euch

oh, i did not know there was a distinction

KorvinStarmast

No worries, could have happened to any of us.

Euch

21:28

0

Q: Should questions without an affirmative answer be ignored?

Should questions that require omnipotent knowledge to truly answer be ignored, and the lack of answers be the de facto answer? For example, the question "Is their life on Mars?" You can only answer "Yes" if indeed there is life on Mars. If there truly is no life on Mars, nobody is qualified to s...

discussion

i put it where it belongs, if anyone wants to help

KorvinStarmast

That's gonna need a link to the question or questions that got you thinking about this problem. It's otherwise pretty wide open, even for meta.

You might also want to link to an RPG.SE help sub section about questions that might be related to this?

Euch

added the link to the original Q/A in comments

good enough, or should be part of question?

trogdor

I am not sure why this needs to be asked?

If you don't think you have the answer to the question you won't answer it right?

Euch

i don't want to clutter the site with answers that don't adhere to what the community expects

well, i did think i had a logical answer to the question, but not a proof-in-publication answer to it, as i don't think such an answer even exists

KorvinStarmast

That question is one that needs a particular expert answer: all material on 5e, and quite a bit of lore to back it up if 5e is silent on this. If you don't have all that, it might be best to not answer since the question is pretty particular for "why" they need it. Published material hinges upon an expert answer.

Euch

21:35

i guess then i have to ask what constitutes an expert

KorvinStarmast

I don't disagree with your answer, but I think the person asking the question really needs help from somone who has deep resources.

Euch

i'm 31 and have been pretty enthusiastically involved for 8 years or so.... good enough?

KorvinStarmast

I have no idea what an expert is in RPGs. I have had a steep learning curve with D&D 5e, even though I played D&D and AD&D for almost two decades.

Euch

fair... i guess i'll leave my answer then, and hope somebody with more experience comes along with the same one, but worded more confidently?

KorvinStarmast

If you can say with confidence that "nope, nothing in 5e material" since you have it all, and have gone over it with a fine toothed comb ... that's part of the desired answer.

Euch

21:39

well, i guess that is not me... i have not read everything there is to read for 5E

but am certain that everything i have read does not address his issue

trogdor

Addressing the specific issue of the question is the important thing

So that's a fair bet

KorvinStarmast

The comment under your answer is kind of right; the questioner is looking for someone who is really well versed in outer planes stuff, in 5e as well as earlier editions. I would need to hit the books to even think of answering the question.

trogdor

I will say, from the description it sounds like the question might be too broad "do all the research for me"

But I haven't read it, and I'm still nowhere near an expert on specifics of where that line is

Euch

well, i've now spent more of my life than i care to on it :P i tried to help, and even tried to find out if i should remove my answer if it was indeed a bad answer

trogdor

Lol

Euch

21:43

it sounds like it's at least acceptable for it to be there

so i've done my due diligence

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, it's not in need of you removing it.

The Oracle

22:03

0

Q: Should questions without an affirmative answer be ignored?

Should questions that require omnipotent knowledge to truly answer be ignored, and the lack of answers be the de facto answer? For example, the question "Is their life on Mars?" You can only answer "Yes" if indeed there is life on Mars. If there truly is no life on Mars, nobody is qualified to s...

discussion

trogdor

lol

@TheOracle buddy,... that was linked here already, get your AI checked :P

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