TRPG General Chat

BESW

01:28

@Ash Assuming it's a D&D-like system, not endless stacking: there are weight limits.

user15026

Ah, I figured there had to be a catch and I couldn't just stack them forever like a really weird jenga game

BESW

Yup, D&D 5e playtest centaur.

CTWind

It's partially true, but requires the GM to be really lenient with the part of the general mount rules that say (more or less) 'the mount needs appropriate anatomy to serve you as a mount'. Generally, one would say a horse is not anatomically appropriate to be a mounted combatant on another horse. :-P

> "A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount"

BESW

> Equine Build. [...] A Medium or smaller creature can ride on your equine back if you allow it.

CTWind

Right, that's the rule for the centaur that lets them serve as a mount to creatures the same size. My quote's the general PHB rules on what's acceptable as a mount, which the Centaur excerpt overrides the size portion of.

Mike Q

01:37

31

Q: Does the UA Centaur stack actually work?

In the the recent Unearthed Arcana they released Centaurs as a playable race. These creatures have an ability that says Finally, a Medium or smaller creature can ride on your equine back if you allow it. In such a situation you continue to act independently, not as a controlled mount. Ce...

tl;dr It has been addressed by Crawford fiat

BESW

If you can't stack Lego centaurs, I don't think any centaurs can stack.

6

Mike Q

Ah of course, rule 0.5: It works in D&D if and only if it also works in LEGO

BESW

I think of it as a Universal Stackability Test.

if stackable(Lego)=0, then stackable(any)=0

Mike Q

02:01

New VTC reason: Fails the Universal Stackability Test

The Oracle

02:59

0

Q: Is this alignment question on or off-topic?

A user asked this question: Is a character's OFFICIAL alignment their ACTED or INTENDED alignment? After much fuss over someone answering the question before it was tagged with the correct game, the question was put on hold as primarily opinion based. mxyzplk then declined to re-open the question...

discussion on-topic

nitsua60

04:31

@doppelgreener players in my Wednesday game faced off against BBEG and took him down tonight. Which means next session they'll go back to their patron for their reward. Any chance you can dig up the link to our conversation from, oh, 9 months ago? About the friendships they formed?

Nvm, found it. "Friendships," not "friendship" is the search term I needed.

BESW

06:18

A local geek convention has asked me to be ready to step in and run an RPG table if any of their current tables drop out.

BESW

07:50

Anybody got advice?

A Very Large Bear

08:33

@BESW Microscope could be good. It's pretty rules light and can do drop in/drop out. Also not too serious.

Though I guess it might not fit some people's perception of what an RPG is

eimyr

@BESW Are you looking for advice on picking a game or on how to run one?

BESW

@eimyr Mostly how to run one. Strategies for groups of strangers, that kind of thing.

Though suggestions on RPGs wouldn't go amiss. They've got two D&D tables and want me to represent what else TTRPGs can be.

I was thinking Lady Blackbird.

eimyr

08:48

If I were you (and I were 3 months ago in a very similar situation) I would run something GMless

BESW

Like...?

eimyr

The upside is that if you plan to participate in other games, running a GMless one puts much less stress and requires less effort, so yuo'll be fresher in other games

BESW

I don't think I can go too far out of the D&D-like box with something like PotFT or LCQ or APFMT.

eimyr

uh, huh, Lovecraftesque, Fiasco, Microscope...

(APFMT?)

if you're not playing in other games, which I don't know if it is the case, then no biggie, but I'd still veer towards no-prep games

BESW

I doubt I'll be playing much in other games.

The only other TTRPG tables are D&D, and the rest of the non-video gaming is, like, Pokemon and stuff.

(APFMT = A Penny For My Thoughts)

This is very last-minute; the con is the weekend after this one, and they need me to confirm times and games in about 18 hours (they called me about 8 hours ago to say "if we can't get all our tables..." and then an hour ago to say "You're up!").

Lady Blackbird is super easy for me to run, is one reason I was thinking of it.

And the rules are right there on the character sheet, and the pre-mades are easy to understand, and the premise is pretty straightforward for a geek crowd.

(I don't know Microscope well enough to run it for strangers nine days from now.)

The Oracle

09:10

1

Q: A highly upvoted and answered question has wrong game system tag. What should we do?

Here's the question How to stop players from making the game X-rated tagged dungeons-and-dragons. As far as I know, dungeons-and-dragons tag is supposed to be used for questions about Dungeons and Dragons editions comparison and history. If the OP would not edit the question, what should we do w...

discussion tags specific-question editing

2

Q: Are "leads on" answers considered helpful?

Related to the question: "Share monk AC bonus with animal companion mount? " The user clearly describes the problem, and the qualities that are looked for in answers, namely something that requires less character investment than an example solution (sohei monk archetype). One possible answer is...

discussion answers

trogdor

@BESW Lady Blackbird is a great idea in my book

BESW

@trogdor How long do our Lady Blackbird games usually take, do you remember?

trogdor

about an hour and a half to two hours?

BESW

That's what I was thinking, yeah.

eimyr

@BESW Lady Blackbird is a good idea, definitely. But you're not getting paid to do it, so I'd recommend you do something that's fun for you

If it's a chore then there's no point.

kviiri

09:31

Yesterday's CoS was a rather fun but uneventful game

We hadn't seen each other in ages so we spend disproportionately long just catching up. Can't really reveal what held us up in-game without spoiling much, but eh, partially it boils down to DnD being DnD again :P

Anaphory

10:03

@BESW Lady Blackbird is fun for conventions, shows some non-mainstream stuff without being extremely confusing for people who might expect something very D&D-like. At the con I was at two weekends ago (which, admittedly, was an Indie con, so expectations were pretty much not D&D) there were two games of Lady Blackbird being run.

kviiri

Well ok, I feel compelled to say this much: we're faced with a problem that has two obvious solutions: doing a simple fetch quest (about a day of travel to the nearest merchant) or pulling a dangerous heist. We picked the latter, because no one wants additional random encounters...

Anaphory

As far as strategies for groups of stranges go, hm. My mental image of you says you know better than I do, both managing strangers and managing expectations for a game. One thing our GM two weeks ago did was excuse herself directly after handing out characters, which gave us time to familiarize ourselves with the sheets and chatter to each other explaining bits on there.

That worked surprisingly well, so I considered stealing it for myself.

Other than that, give players plenty of time to take notes who the others are, both for an out-of-character name (which is nice to have for talking to each other later, if playing with each other was enjoyable) and in-character name and description and stuff; pack some spare sheets of paper, pencils and dice just in case.

@trogdor How far did you play in those games? Did you have awesome pacing, or is this just one or two encounters?

trogdor

it was the suggested starting scenario type thing

@Anaphory are you fammiliar at all with Lady Blackbird?

Anaphory

Yes, excuse my terminology.

trogdor

ah ok

so basically, we escaped the ship, that was what we did every session

still hasn't gotten boring either

I love it every time and, have also still played Naomi every time

Anaphory

10:19

Ah, okay. That's what I'm used to in one-shots, plus maybe some other thing after it if there's more hours to fill. An amazing thing two weeks ago was that the GM managed to get us on an entire arc from escaping the ship through quite a few things happening on the outback planet all the way to an encounter with Uriah Flynt, but that was maybe 4 hours.

Just getting away from the Hand of Sorrow is excellent, getting away and then one more thing often felt very incomplete, so playing the “whole story” for once was a thing I liked a lot, but sticking with the escape (and possibly making that clear from the beginning) sounds like the best plan.

[I hadn't realized before how well the GM paced us then: The most amazing thing about the game there was that all of Lady Blackbird, Naomi, Cyrus and Kale had significant developments in their relationships to each other, and only like the last scene on Nightport felt a bit rushed and superficial.]

BESW

10:39

Do you have any sense of what the GM did to accomplish that?

Like, using "let it ride" and larger-scope results to reduce dice rolls, or asking particular kinds of leading questions, or introducing complications that specifically pushed the story in certain ways...?

Anaphory

For the relationships, I think that was significantly owed to the group, which was composed of Indie gamers happy to push for various things. Leading questions and escalations (sometimes combined, “Can you tell me what goes wrong? Make it hurt!”) were definitely in her toolbox.

BESW

How long does it usually take you to get out of the Hand of Sorrow?

Anaphory

Uff, four weeks ago it took me the entire evening of starting at 8 ending around half eleven, with the caveat that our Lady Blackbird was a very contrarian player/character and therefore a lot of complications came up.

Normally, I guess it's more on the upper end of 2 hours, so that I'm always tempted to add a Sky Squid, some bounty hunters or something else to fill the remaining time.

(Which, looking at it now, I feel is a bad idea, because it increases the feeling of incompleteness.)

BESW

These are lessons learned from reflecting on experience.

Without the experience AND the reflection, we don't learn 'em.

Anaphory

Pacing is hard. I have some reflecting notes in an RPG diary I kept last year (short notes on tops and flops and things that transfer to other games), I should probably start jotting down notes on real-time/pacing in there, because that's the thing I find hard, and where I hardly ever know how long things actually took when reflecting on it later.

@BESW I think there was more “let it ride” than large-scope dice rolls. Many of the dice rolls were resolving separate obstacles, as opposed to only individual actions or entire scenes.

BESW

10:54

Cool, that's helpful.

Gonna have to think about leading questions.

...sigh. This is a rinkydink con. No budget for supplies.

It's "bring your own dice and print your own character sheets, you're lucky we provide the table."

trogdor

:/

not a great way to treat the people who are showing up to your venue

kviiri

11:16

At times I feel I should just quit the Curse of Strahd campaign

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri What makes you feel that way?

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear Because the campaign design (or at least how our GM runs it) feels like a caricature of all things I hate in DnD, except unironically

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri Well that's certainly not ideal.

kviiri

On a more positive side, I think we are doing good. It's the campaign content that manages to get worse and worse with every passing session

Anaphory

@BESW That's what I'm used to, but then I don't get hasty desperate calls from Con organizers whether I can please run games for them, instead I run or play games at cons because a broad selection of games is in my interest.

kviiri

11:20

Or well, we sans me who can't stop whining about the campaign content when everyone else is mostly okay with it. Or doesn't understand what the problem is.

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri I haven't played CoS, so what in the content isn't enjoyable?

BESW

@Anaphory I seem to be the only GM on the island known to run "non-traditional" games.

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear A ton of uninteresting named NPCs who one has to memorize in case they become important, an endless stream of plot hooks ruining the pacing and worst of all a ton of gotchas.

Anaphory

@BESW Yes, I assumed that was part of the problem.

BESW

(Where, so far as I can tell, "traditional" means "D&D and Pathfinder and maybe somebody used to run WoD.")

kviiri

11:24

@AVeryLargeBear A particular problem is what seems to be an epidemic of "Princess in another Castle". We started a quest in session 3. I thought we'd be done with it in each of sessions five to ten, only to have the goalposts move.

Anaphory

Actually, I think I do have the chance of getting character sheets printed. I have never tried, I know my printer works and the con orga is busy doing other stuff, but I think I have seen them print sheets for other people. (That is, in two of the places where I had cons; the one two weeks ago which was very small and informal and run in a bord games cafe and therefore has no office access.)

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri That is super frustrating. At least give me a sequel quest :P

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear Usually it's a sequel quest, except the sequel begins before the first establishment ends with proper closure

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri Dang. That is bad.

kviiri

It's like you're Harry Potter and the penultimate trial to reach the Philosopher's Stone is solving the mystery of the Chamber of Secrets.

A Very Large Bear

11:26

@kviiri lol

BESW

@kviiri Harry Potter and the Plot Outline of Robert Jordan.

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear So the particular situation I'm probably overanalyzing now is, we're in a situation where a possibly dangerous but so far friendly NPC has promised us a reward for retrieving a very mundane item from the nearest town. As an alternative, the others in the party decided we could try stealing the reward from the NPC in an elaborate heist.

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri And the problem is that there is no obvious reason for needing the MacGuffin or is it something else?

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear The NPC is a bit of a macabre creep, but I don't see any reason in or out of character to assume any risk beyond some wolves or forest spookies in going to the town, getting the item and returning. But there'd be padding encounters on the way there, possibly Yet Another Quest in the town to get the item, and padding encounters on the way back. No one wants that.

Rubiksmoose

At least padding encounters are better than sharp pointy ones :)

kviiri

11:35

But instead of like, not having any, we (excluding my conflicted mind trying to figure what to want here) decided to have this nonsensical heist which is only a workaround to the problem that random encounters during travel aren't fun.

user357094

@kviiri Ahhhh. So all the players are not so fond of the random encounters, but they are still happening?

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear Yea, or... well, that's what I'm reading from their reaction to my desire to go to the town. They automatically assume that a trip back there has to be boring padding and the heist is instead neat and clean

I haven't read the book but sure, I assume it'll indeed be boring padding. But it's a problem we could get rid of instead of just working around it with the heist plan!

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri Well, that does seem like a reasonable conclusion. If they are not my guy players, then why else would they go in for potentially angering a friendly NPC.

It seems like a good time to have a talk with the players and the GM, or just the players to see if you are all on the same page.

kviiri

They're not My guyers to any big degree. Which is good because we'd probably have a fight in our hands otherwise... but in this game it seems we have to go against character a lot to not have a bad time, which annoys me.

@AVeryLargeBear I do it after every session, but I'm having a really hard time getting myself across to them

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri Like they don't agree with you that the padding is boring, or that you have a hard time telling them that it is boring?

kviiri

11:46

They're all DnD people with rather limited experience outside the traditional games. We're at a different wavelength, I suppose

Shalvenay

uhm, why does there appear to be two Very Large Bears in this channel? :P

A Very Large Bear

@Shalvenay That's my twin brother :P

Shalvenay

(no seriously, @AVeryLargeBear -- your avatar shows up twice in the user-list widget on the right)

@AVeryLargeBear heheheh

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear I guess the issue might be that they don't agree that boring parts don't belong in the game

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri It could be that. or it could be that random encounters usually mean combat, and they like combat

idk, but maybe talk more about why you don't like the padding

kviiri

11:49

@AVeryLargeBear Actually... I'm the most combat-eager player in the group :P (I only signed up for one more game of DnD because I wanted to see if premade adventures have better balanced encounters than our party usually throws)

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri Well that rules out that idea :P

But seriously, talking about the why, rather than the what might help get to the root of the issue with the other players

kviiri

Combats have been generally fun, I like my character's combat abilities and the encounter balancing has indeed improved from our group's usual homebrew scenarios where they're usually balanced for 5 min working days.

@AVeryLargeBear I'd agree, but... well, I think I've exhausted all my whine tokens again.

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri You are obviously a better judge than me in this scenario, but I generally find that when I supply reasoning, people are more willing to listen/are more empathetic to the problem.

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear Yea, I would probably give the same advice in your shoes

But these people have a hard time understanding what I'm saying, or are less cynical about the campaign's misgivings or simply feel different about them (eg. I value a good narrative more, and they value realism)

So getting the point across requires a lot of repetition and after a while I don't think they see anything but whine whine whine whine anymore. I don't blame them for it, really.

A Very Large Bear

@kviiri That's fair. And at a certain point, it may be that you have to come to terms with the fact that the party's interests are not all aligned, and either cope with it or go your own ways, sad as it is.

There's also the potential for some common ground too. Like you could say that you only do random encounters on long travel or something

kviiri

12:13

I think I'm leaving DnD for good after this campaign, but I've got a partially overlapping group signed up for 7th Sea and Apocalypse World in the future

I hope we can find a better harmony in a different system

(it's worked for me before!)

Sir Cinnamon

13:39

:45378731 Uhhh what is going on with that

nitsua60

@Sdjz user destroyed; thank you for the flag.

Sdjz

@SirCinnamon I linked a spam alert but then realized the link itself contained inappropriate language and since I could no longer see the post I assumed it was gone anyway

Sir Cinnamon

@Sdjz Ah, upon refreshing this page, I no longer see it

NautArch

vote to reopen? This looks stackable now.

Sir Cinnamon

Stats?

NautArch

13:48

ability scores

sorry

Sir Cinnamon

It says point buy

Sdjz

It already says Attributes: point buy

@SirCinnamon jinx

NautArch

@Sdjz i clearly need moar coffee

Sir Cinnamon

@Sdjz I'll mail you a coke

As much as those are not my favourite style of questions this one does seem answerable :P

voted to reopen

Sustainable damage across 5 encounters probably doesnt eliminate too many classes

Druids dont get 5 wild shapes do they?

Oh but they come back on short rest so they do

NautArch

I was thinking champion fighter with GWM/PAM/Sentinel

Sir Cinnamon

13:54

I dont have much experience (pun intended) playing at those levels

NautArch

@SirCinnamon My paladin is there now (level 18 actually)

I consistently have 3-4 attacks and generally hit on all with a minimum damage per hit of 20

Sir Cinnamon

@NautArch And the option to blow up with smites on a crit

NautArch

@SirCinnamon Yup :)

Sir Cinnamon

one of my favourite things about paladin

NautArch

lAnd we reroll 1s and 2s for smite damage with GWF

Sir Cinnamon

13:58

A nice amount of damage and then on a crit you can just spike like mad

NautArch

@SirCinnamon and we often have 15 minute adventuring days. So i can more freely drop smites.

And I ride a pegasus, so I kite with having the mount disengage

Sir Cinnamon

That's a pretty strong setup

NautArch

and then wait for them to get close to me and stop them at 10' with my Sentinel+Vengeance paladin combo

Sir Cinnamon

but i guess at level 18 youre fighting some pretty tough stuff

NautArch

for my reaction

The Oracle

14:09

0

Q: Can/should we do something about early answers getting the lion's share of votes?

Here and at many Stack Exchange sites, there's a tendency for the chronologically first answer to receive the most votes. Once an answer has acquired a lead, it almost always retains that lead. I suspect this happens for the following reasons: Users rely on the wisdom of crowds. If the first an...

discussion voting fastest-gun

0

Q: Where is the info regarding the dispute resolution of "What happens when a small army runs through teleportation circle?"

On What happens when a small army runs through teleportation circle?, I read: This post has been locked while disputes about its content are being resolved. For more info visit meta. But I couldn't find the info regarding how the disputes are going to be resolved and when we're going to be ...

support specific-question

Maximillian

14:23

@NautArch Re: printing from yesterday. I only worked with Cura a few times, but the quality of your supports can be an issue. Do you have a local makerspace? They're chock full of people to help adjust and tweak slices/supports.

nitsua60

14:39

I've got a guy in my group who prints terrain and minis most days. If only you were within driving distance, @NautArch.... (I tease, I tease.)

Maximillian

Simplify3D lets me manually edit the support post positioning, which has fixed a few prints for me.

But the $100 license isn't for everyone.

Colin Gross

14:53

@Maximillian What's the material cost per model?

Maximillian

Under a dollar for the PLA I'm using.

monoprice.com/product?p_id=15827

Colin Gross

Cool.

NautArch

15:15

@Maximillian ooh, i don't know. I'll look into that. Increasing my fill helped a lot in terms of being able to take off the supports without breaking the model.

Other than not as much detail as the model file actually has, I'm pretty happy with the prints.

Just have to acetone them and paint them for final judgement :)

@Maximillian $100 ain't bad...and I can probably make it a business expense :P

Maximillian

15:28

It cost as much as my printer, but it made a significant difference. The printer template/drivers they have seem to be extremely well calibrated per model.

NautArch

you're selling me on this :)

Maximillian

After you buy it, if you dont like it in 14 days, they can refund you. simplify3d.com

Ouch. It's $150 now.

Oh no. that's what I paid, nevermind.

Anyway, this is what I print on: monoprice.com/…

NautArch

@Maximillian so far, i'm pretty happy with the lulzbot mini

Maximillian

About how much did that one run you?

NautArch

@Maximillian we bought it about 4 years ago...not quite sure.

asking someone else in the office to see if they remember :)

$1350

Maximillian

15:48

Wow.

Ooooh, lulzbot handles numerous material types, that's why....

NautArch

@Maximillian Yeah, i went with the ABS because I guess it's easier to paint on (after putting acetone on it to smooth everything out and seal it)

Maximillian

You can print wood-fill, nylon, and metallics.

Yes, ABS is great for that.

Oooooh you can even print conductive PLA

NautArch

Not sure if I'd need anything but ABS for minis.

Maximillian

Nylon, polycarbonate... That's a niiiice printer.

But yeah, ABS and PLA are fine for decorative items.

NautArch

going through this guy's creations to see if I want to print anything else :)

i think i have an addiction and will next have to buy some paints and start learning how to paint.

new hobby, yay!

and speaking of...any good starter painting sets folks'd recommend?

Maximillian

15:56

Standard miniature acrylics?

This is my go-to brand and this specific kit has given me everything I need for years: amazon.com/Vallejo-Game-Color-Basic-Paint/dp/B009LH0YTA

eye-dropper bottles let me mix what I need on a pallete and minimize wastage.

NautArch

@Maximillian are those the right paints for ABS?

Maximillian

However, Reds and Yellow paints are notoriously hard pigments to work with in my opinion, because done improperly they will be thin, you'll see through them on the model and you'll either use too much covering it up and cake the model or you'll have too little and the color is weak.

NautArch

$200?! sweet jiminy christmas!

Maximillian

That's the full line of paints with a few brushes. Also includes a paint on primer and sealers

You can get individual bottles for a couple dollars

NautArch

vallejo is the brand I should use, though?

Maximillian

15:59

For Reds and Yellows I rely on P3 paints. They make paint mixtures with triple the amount of pigment other brands use.

Vallejo game colour is highly recommended. Reaper Master Series may also be viable at a lower cost. Similar mixture/paint tones

Vallejo also makes Model Colour, which is mostly for military model kits, so keep an eye on the branding

Acrylics are safe on ABS, you may want to experiment with primers.

Honestly, I use rattlecan black Krylon for a few bucks fro m the hardware or automotive store. Black primer gets into all the cracks and crevices and if you paint light/drybrush, the black remains as a shadow-fill in the crevices and recesses, which can leave a nice effect.

Hi! I'm an amateur whose done this since 1997. :D

If you have a model that will feature a lot of reds and yellows however, you want to go with a grey or white primer.

NOTE: I have not tried spray-primer on PLA or ABS prints yet. I don't know if that eats the model. You may wish to test that. Paint-on primers are most likely safe as they don't have an accellerant.

That might not be the right word... A chemical common to spray/rattlecans

Putting together a quick gallery of some of the stuff I've done..

Here we go. Here's a chunk of the stuff I work on. photos.app.goo.gl/Ew5EaGnpuLzuCwqL7

GreySage

16:17

@Maximillian I like the 3-tailed angler fish murloc thing

Delioth

Honestly, that one reminds me of like a buff take on an Aboleth

Maximillian

@GreySage That's Reaper Miniature's Dagon.

I don't have any pictures of Cthulhu or Shub-Niggurath at the moment.

The dragon at the end of the gallery is one of my better display pieces.

Not sure if the pictures show, but sections of the body have per-scale color work.

He's also got a boatload of dust on him sadly, since there was a six month gap at one point between sessions.

But I think the dust kinda adds to the undead part.

NautArch

17:04

@Maximillian worst case is i have to print another one out :)

wow! your detail is much finer on your printer.

or maybe that's a filament difference?

Maximillian

Those are not printed pieces.

NautArch

@Maximillian ahhhh

Maximillian

Those are injection mold kits from Kingdom Death and Reaper Bones

I'm still learning to print models that look passable.

I'm told for ABS you can get a little acetone on a cloth and rub down the rigid edges, but you have to be careful because it's melting the plastic to do this

NautArch

@Maximillian Yeah, I was going to use a q-tip for that

SmokeDetector

17:24

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: Keeping the world alive whilst Players take a rest mid-adventure? by tran chung on rpg.SE

Maximillian

The only really cool toy I've got access to is an Oni Kage Tall. Which has a 10" x 10" x 21.5" build area.

David Coffron

17:39

Can I have a sanity check on my session I'm prepping for. Is it too "deus ex"y for me to have the archmage one of the characters new from their childhood show up in a random cult prison.

(She's the one character I haven't pulled into the story because her backstory doesn't quite fit and I'm trying to figure out a way)

NautArch

@DavidCoffron what is the archmage doing there and what will the archmage do for the PC?

David Coffron

@NautArch Well the archmage is investigating recent necrotic conversions on listing from the kingmage. The party is on there way to the kingmage for their own mission. The archmage being there is a way to connect the PC to the story since the archmage is the one who helped her control her magic at a young age (sorcerer). Some dialogue to give the impression that he was preparing her for service to the kingmage which she is now on her way to fulfill.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron That sounds completely legitimate. Deus Ex would be if the archmage then solved all their problems :)

David Coffron

@NautArch thanks

Mike Q

17:55

@DavidCoffron Agreed, I'd say something is too deus ex machina if both: 1. it shows up without apparent cause or warning, and 2. it resolves the most pressing problems with almost no input from the protagonists (PCs)

Bumping into a childhood friend in a random cult dungeon may be a huge coincidence, but from a tabletop rpg perspective, I can't see how it's problematic

NautArch

@MikeQ Thor:Ragnarok seemed to have public acceptance of it :)

Anaphory

@MikeQ Taking it from Deus Ex Machina to Chekhov's Machine Gun?

Maximillian

Bumping into your estranged cousin Larry in a random cult dungeon might just be socially awkward. You knew he'd probably end up there, he doesn't really deserve to be there, but if you get involved, it's gonna be a thing between you and your mom that blows up....

Mike Q

@Anaphory Maybe. Sometimes. It depends. Deus Ex Chekov's Gun is still Deus Ex Machina, but with foreshadowing.

Tabletop game narratives have an element of interactivity and agency that doesn't really exist in conventional storytelling

If superpowerful NPCs or plot devices keep saving the day, and it's not something the players worked on, then it may feel cheap, compared to success as a reward for the players' actions and efforts

Yuuki

18:17

They really should make an Adam Jensen/Alicia Vikander team-up movie video game and call it Deus Ex Machina.

Mike Q

Generally speaking, Deus Ex Machina is unadvised in interactive storytelling because it takes away agency from the players

Similar to an Secretly Unwinnable Challenge, except it's a Secretly Unlosable Challenge

Yuuki

Might work well in comedic campaigns though.

Mike Q

e.g. It doesn't matter what the players do to handle their situation, the GM's pet dual-katana-wielding skateboarding hipster hot elf chick NPC will show up to resolve the immediate problem, because she's just that cool

Colin Gross

I favor an unwinnable situation from time to time, but the outcome can be influenced by player agency.

@MikeQ Y.T. from Snowcrash?

Mike Q

@ColinGross If the outcome can be influenced by player agency, then that's not the type of problem I'm referring to

Classic example, the GM wants to show off how evil the BBEG is, so the BBEG attacks the party, and the GM railroads a party loss

If the BBEG is 30 feet away and a player runs up to them, then the GM goes "Uh... they're actually 60 feet away! And flying! So you can't reach them."

Yuuki

18:25

"The BBEG engraves Explosive Runes on the inside of your eyelids."

NautArch

18:38

@MikeQ I'm not saying I'm cool with that, but I have gotten much better as a player of not getting frustrated when a monster doesn't seem to fit what's in the book.

I think it's as I DM more, I realize I want to give different/other actions to a monster.

Mike Q

18:54

@NautArch The issue isn't that the BBEG doesn't fit some existing stat block, the issue is that the players are unable to influence the outcome of the encounter

NautArch

@MikeQ I know, it was just a somewhat similar event.

The line between unable to influecne encounter and unable to use an ability effectively that hsould have been fine i don't think is that wide

Mike Q

Explain please?

GreySage

If the PCs fail due to expecting, say, a troll to be vulnerable to fire when it's actually a homebrewed thing that LOOKS like a troll, it looks from the outside a lot like GM railroading, but it isn't

NautArch

Let's say the BBEG goes in to attack a PC that has Sentinel. But the DM has decided that the BBEG (which is a MM monster) doesn't provoke OAs when moving because that feat frustrates them too much.

The player is frustrated because they think it should work, but then can't use it.

Delioth

Yeah; I'm of the mind that the DM ought to be able to do that, but that they also have a responsibility to make that known beforehand to some extent (and not just handwave it away as it would happen)

NautArch

19:04

@Delioth And I've seen it more handwaived as it happens. At first, I would get really frustrated but I've since either become acclimated to it, I understand it more, or a mix of both.

Delioth

On both the troll thing (some knowledge checks or perception or hints to show that these troll-like creatures are vulnerable to e.g. electricity instead of fire) and the BBEG thing (rumors about how fluidly they move and how hard they are to pin down, even when they're stepping into and out of reach), etc.

NautArch

But how do you make it known before hand? "Oh, hey guys - we're about to start combat against a goobermachine. But THIS goobermachine doesn't provoke OAs, sorry bobo.

@Delioth Would you ask your players to roll a knowledge/nature? Would you give it a low DC?

Mike Q

@NautArch Narrative clues, maybe? Or maybe have it as you described - an unpleasant surprise that happens in combat, to throw a curveball at the players

Delioth

@NautArch Depending on your group's backstories, yeah. I mean, if one of their backstories is "troll hunter" then they probably get to just know it. If they're likely to know it, low DC. Medium DC if not. If they pick up on a bunch of context clues (the trolls having a campfire, local legends about no "trolls" coming out in thunderstorms but no such thing for normal rain, etc) the DC would probably go down

On the "No OA" BBEG, it'd almost have to be context clues. Maybe if you throw in a few context clues allow Insight (or don't bother with a check) and tell them that the BBEG's Grace (or whatever) means he won't provoke OA's

NautArch

@Delioth "this thing is moving so smoothly that you don't think there's a lot of opportunity to attack it outside of your regular attacks"

Delioth

19:11

Yeah, about like that. "It darts so quickly in and out of your reach that you can't find any chance to strike while it's moving"

Context clues like that can make worlds feel super deep and exciting (from what my players say), but they do take quite a bit of prep to make them appear not just thrown in (have to prep a few sessions in advance to make it not seem like you just did it for this session)

Mike Q

"As Count Von Evilman charges at you, he runs past several armed guards, so quickly that they are unable to swing their swords as he passes by"

GreySage

@MikeQ Twist, Count Von Evilman is the good guy, and thinks you're in league with the bad guys

Delioth

19:27

@GreySage Thinks?

Maximillian

Count Strahd Von Goodguy

Delioth

"Just because he is Goodguy does not mean he is good guy"

Mike Q

19:43

You're pronouncing it wrong... it's French

Sir Cinnamon

19:55

@MikeQ Bonhomme?

Maximillian

20:25

It's like naming in the Orc community. Do you hire Hugeaxe Throatripper or Quillpen Taxcollector.

Mike Q

Twist: It's the same guy. He uses the huge axe and threats of throat-ripping to intimidate people into paying taxes

Maximillian

It's a lesson on judging orcs by their name. It's the same orc, we just cleaned him up, gave him a suit, and found out he had two years of higher education at Dakka-U.

Yuuki

Besides, "Quillpen" is pronounced like "keel dem".

BESW

@Anaphory How do convention tables advertise Lady Blackbird? What sort of pitch/signage do they use?

Mike Q

Trading Places: Faerun edition

Maximillian

20:32

"While the Throatrippers are a prestigious family going back countless portions of orc history, we felt it's time to establish new names to prove that orc communities can have different images not defined by their war clans."

He's also SUPER aggressive on showing you how itemized deductions can be an advantage over standardized deductions, if you count all of your inventory items from dungeon-delving separately and not collectively.

This is what happens when my brain is left to idle after writing eForm automation solutions all day.

Mike Q

> "Do you have any dependents to claim?"
"Yes, I'm the party healer. Everyone who isn't dead counts as a dependent."

GreySage

@MikeQ "If you know the Animate Dead spell, you can claim up to twice as many HD as your class level dead bodies as dependents too."

BESW

@MikeQ ....is that a Buckaroo Banzai joke?

Mike Q

@BESW Muppets reference

BESW

...did the Muppets steal a Buckaroo Banzai joke?

Maximillian

20:48

Up on his wall behind him is his degree, right next to a framed battle axe with a chunk missing from the battle of Kharab Al-Dhur with the bronze plate that reads "Most Enemy Captains Slain"

@GreySage Please note only INTELLIGENT undead qualify in the 2018 tax year.

They're closing part of the loophole.

GreySage

@Maximillian You mean I have to shut down my skeleton tax-shelter?

Maximillian

@GreySage OR grant them limited to free will, by granting them an intelligence of 4 or higher.

Anything that simply responds to commands is going to fall under golems, unseen servants, and other automations.

Also they have to remain intelligent for at least the majority of the tax year.

Mike Q

@GreySage If you put up some holy (or unholy) symbols, then it counts as a religious institution and it becomes tax exempt

Maximillian

Your alternative is to fight the senate, which Quillpen does have some going rates if you need to fight via appointed champion.

Brain, stop. We don't need to think up what his ads look like, the ones that show up on crystal balls for people who bought the cheaper model with added advertising.

Yuuki

21:08

@MikeQ The bureaucracy behind this is interesting because religious institutions are not actually exempt under the tax code. But rather, their taxes have to be filed in conjunction with their object of worship as they are technically dependents. But no one in the right mind is going to get Ares to fill out a 1040.

New game: Kratos stars in God of Taxes.

Delioth

@Yuuki This is now a facet of the ongoing collection of ideas that will eventually become a dwarven mountainhome which one day will be the center of a campaign based around that very mountainhome being transported to the Feywild (Or rather, The First World since I'm more of a Pathfinder GM)

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ That's why I like to play clerics. :) In OD&D cleric strongholds got twice the revenue as fighting man strongholds. Tax loopholes for the win; also, Turcopoles!

Mike Q

(insert joke about rogues and tax evasion)

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Rogues work in cash, so it's not traceable revenue/income

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast As long as you don't attract the attention of the local tax-authorities, who are not above using divination magic to determine your precise gross income.

Maximillian

21:18

"Sir the Orcs are building a war camp outside the castle grounds." "War is it?" "Worse. Property assessment." "Oh dear gods nobody allow them into the basements and dungeons, we still have flood damage."

Warcamp of Throatripper, Goldberg, and Katz

Delioth

"Stormed a castle and lost a dozen men for just a handful of coins? Get a hold of Throatripper and Associates for reliable risk and reward assessments for all your warmongering needs! Property values, hidden caches, murder-holes, staffing, we check it all!"

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage With the rogue's wandering adventurer habits, the tax authorities don't have an address to visit, nor is the rogue even local to anywhere. Those who stay local join the Thieves Guild and get their protection through their contacts, and the group rate bribery the guild provides to the assessors ...

... oldest tax dodge in the book. pay off the tax official.

> or have blackmail on the tax official ...

Maximillian

"You see this fort looks like it holds gold, riches, food, and supplies. But upon closer inspection you'll see the gold is tarnished, the riches are devalued foreign currency, and the food is cut with fillers like sawdust. You don't want to raid this fort, you'll be upside down on your raid finances in a month."

chops Throne room wall with axe "See? Wooden plankboard just riddled with termites. There's probably a queen under the dungeons the size of a house. So not only is it infested, it's quest bait for adventurers, and your clan doesn't need to deal with that."

War party leaves, leaving a missive on the gate with an arrow citing that the property value of the fort is very low and they can't afford to siege that with the current fortress market.

Some business cards attached for affordable repairs/refurbishing.

Delioth

21:37

@Maximillian "But you see this little castle? It's filled to the brim with silver and its lands flow with deer aplenty, great for feeding a hungry horde! Plus, there's a secret way past the defenses (what with a good solid trench, murder-holes, and arrow slits aplenty), and next Thursday they're set to be training a fresh batch of guards (and sending the good ones away!). Just a nominal fee to let you in on the secret entrance and you'll be on your way to riches!"

Maximillian

"Oooh, did you here that Graz? Murder-holes, you love those."

Alright, end of day stretch here. This was fun, thanks for adding to it.

Yuuki

21:56

@Maximillian Towns contract with local dungeonmasters to attract adventurers that pour gold into the local economy.

GreySage

@Yuuki I'm imagining billboards at the entrances to major cities, "Looking for a good fight? Visit Humbleburg's local dungeon. CR 5 fights guaranteed!"

Yuuki

@GreySage "If you adventured out of Smalltown, you'd already be at the dungeon by now."

BESW

22:30

I'm trying to come up with a one-sentence con pitch for Lady Blackbird, like the sort of thing to put in the schedule pamphlet. How does this sound?

> A swashbuckling dieselpunk space opera about outlaws, spaceships, magic, and broken hearts.

Or should I put more focus on the "escape from Hand of Sorrow" circumstances of the actual session I'll be providing?

trogdor

23:21

that's tricky

on one hand, if people are looking for a new system, they might appreciate a primer on what this one is about

on the other,.... advertising the scenario you are running is always good

buuuut

I think actually, if you only have one sentence, what you have is good

if you had like, a paragraph perhaps I would say different but

you don't sooooo,.... yeah

BESW

I think for the table sign I'll have the opening crawl.

(This is the weekend after next, the 7th and 8th, which is also the first of four weekends I won't be able to physically host Geek Night.)

user15026

@BESW I don't know what Lady Blackbird is but this makes me wanna play

BESW

@Ash Success!

user15026

23:37

Yay! I was helpful!

doppelgreener

23:51

@nitsua60 I await terrified.

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