TRPG General Chat

Helwar

15:00

@NautArch yeah that part I saw... Maybe I misread that in the past and i'm misremembering it

NautArch

@Helwar i think someone asked a question like that on here...

Sdjz

I don't recall seeing anything about this glue trap. Does anyone know where this is from?

Tiggerous

@Sdjz I was thinking the same.

NautArch

@Sdjz sovereign glue?

Axoren

Mantle of Fury for Mystics...

Aura of Bloodletting (3 psi; conc., 1 min.). As a bonus action, you unleash an aura of rage. Until your concentration ends, you and any creature within 60 feet of you has advantage on melee attack rolls

I think I've found it, but it's UA content

NautArch

15:02

@Axoren and that's definitely not recommended for multiclassing.

Axoren

Yeah, I know

That's the CLOSEST I could find

To a reliable way to gain Advantage

NautArch

@Axoren other than your 1/SR VEngeance pally.

Axoren

Once per combat

And only if you get an hour between combats ;_;

Samurai is 3 turns/day

Still, Mystic provides something a Dex character doesn't really have

A reliable way, for multiple combats per day, to get advantage.

Reduces the effectiveness of crit-fishing, but that's still a 14.26% chance at critting without multiclassing.

NautArch

@Axoren If you want to waste a turn...you could get True Strike.

Axoren

True Strike is the worst thing ever invented.

I hate the designers for shit like that and Countercharm.

NautArch

15:12

@Axoren i actually used countercharm effectively...once.

Axoren

Why would I cast True Strike this turn? When I could attack this turn and next.

NautArch

@Axoren because you want advantage.

Helwar

@Axoren it's like a noob trap. A trap I fell in. With both feet and stomping hard, with a smile from ear to ear because I had found the I WIN button...

Axoren

Not enough to waste half my action economy on it.

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren You could be out of range this turn, or out of line of sight?

Or a rogue who desperately wants a sneak attack

NautArch

15:14

@SirCinnamon because 1 attack with sneak atttack is more damage then 2 regular attacks.

Axoren

@SirCinnamon If you're ever in a situation where Truestrike is advantageous, something terrible has happened in your life. The situation you mentioned should always have better options for anyone with the ability to cast Truestrike.

kviiri

True Strike is useful only in some rather niche cases. I wouldn't pick it as anything but a contingency and quite likely not even then.

goodguy5

@HellSaint re "loot question"

I think he wants them to just get the loot, but is unsure the RAW

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren I have 30 move speed and 35 feet of wall before i can see the opponent, who is holding a crossbow. I could dash to be in his sight and not be able to attack, or I could cast true strike, get near the edge of the wall and attack with advantage next turn

What is my better option?

Axoren

I might see it useful on Eldritch Knight with War Magic if instead it applied to attacks until the end of your next turn.

Helwar

15:18

@SirCinnamon in this situation true strike is better, but it's a niche situation. Where are your companions? How often you just don't reach the enemy? It's not useless by any stretch of the imagination... but it's not good either. Usually you have other things giving Advantadge and since you can't stack it...

NautArch

@Axoren Yeah, the "next attack" mechanics are annoying. Same with Vicious Mockery.

Axoren

@NautArch It's not the next attack and that's the problem with it.

It specifies "on your next turn"

And "the first attack"

Sir Cinnamon

@Helwar My companions could be up ahead or falling behind, doesnt really matter, does it? And depending on your build it could be that you frequently arent in range to hit an enemy

NautArch

@Axoren Yeah, the first attack. Sorry :) But annoying for higher level characters or if you're fighitng against more than one attack monsters.

Helwar

@SirCinnamon as said, it has it's uses, not gonna negate that :)

NautArch

15:19

Gee, I can get disadvantage on one of many attacks for the cost of my action? Thanks :(

Sir Cinnamon

I'm not saying it is amazing but its a good action to take when you have a dead turn otherwise

Helwar

@SirCinnamon the problem is you usually have way better cantrips to pick, IMO

Sir Cinnamon

because if youre out of range, you could dash to then be in range, but unless the enemy is fleeing, better to true strike and split the move into 2 turns

Axoren

@SirCinnamon Honestly, in your situation, I would vote for a passing turn in many cases.

Sdjz

@SirCinnamon I'd probably just dodge in that kind of situation

Axoren

15:21

Arcane Trickster would just Move + Dash + Attack

But then assuming a 65 ft. wall, the problem stands.

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren Well suppose dash isnt enoug

Axoren

@SirCinnamon Spend all movement to get to the edge of the wall. The crossbowman isn't going anywhere.

Sir Cinnamon

@Sdjz What if the enemy isnt likely to target you?

Axoren

If he is, you won't catch him by your next turn, either.

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren Neither is the wall and youll have movement next turn

kviiri

15:22

Well the thing is, is that the situation you want to spend you spell pick in preparation for

Sir Cinnamon

I mena maybe there are subjectively better cantrips but depending on build and scenario there are plenty of opportunities to use true strike

Axoren

You move 5ft. short and cast Truestrike.
Crossbowman runs 60-90 ft.
You move another 30 ft. and cast Truestrike again.

Now what?

kviiri

Depending on the scenario there is plenty of opportunities to use anything though. You might be facing a foe who is the god of broken things and suddenly Mending is the best thing available ever.

Axoren

Assuming Crossbowman doesn't have Dash as a bonus, that's 60 ft. of movement.
Assuming you DO have Dash as a bonus, you still won't catch up to them for melee if you're using Truestrike with your action.

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri Thats an exaggeration of what I'm saying - this is a combat spell and the combat of DnD has a fixed action economy in which i think true strike has a chance to shine

GreySage

15:24

Even Eldritch Knight can't use True Strike effectively, since they have to attack AFTER they cast a cantrip, so you'll only get to use it once every other turn.

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren Like I said, if they're fleeing you need to act differently

if he's dashing he isnt attacking so youve accomplished something as a melee vs a fleeing ranged which is tough to do

Axoren

If they're not, you still should act differently. There are better passing turns than getting advantage on one attack, and because of the restrictive nature of the ability, Truestrike can be immediately countered by walking back out of the target's range.

Helwar

the problem with true strike is that it give advantage, and there are too many ways to get that without wasting a limited Cantrip slot, and a whole action, to get it. Hey, if you don't have companions, or are not coming out from hiding, or whatever other possibility of having CA... yeah. You can use it. It's more of a hole plug than an improvement..

Axoren

Suddenly, your turn is wasted.

NautArch

You can find a use case for pretty much anything in the book - but is it worth using a limited option (like a cantrip choice) for that use case? That is the question you ask yourself.

Sir Cinnamon

15:26

@Axoren Which often it would be anyways

A dodge followed by not being attacked is wasted, a readied action that never triggers is wasted, those are things that happen all the time

Turns are wasted constantly, this cantrip gives you the opportunity to take an action likely to be wasted and hopefully improve your next

Axoren

@SirCinnamon Instead, cast something like Misty Step if you don't get Dash as a bonus. Dash as a bonus to get in a better position. Move so that your next turn can put you next to the ranged attacker who will be getting disadvantage to shoot you or risk an Opportunity attack for trying to step out of range.

Cast invisibility so that your next turn can not-only give you advantage, but can allow you to approach unseen.

This action counters a readied action from the crossbowman, on top of accomplishing exactly what Truestrike does.

kviiri

I think having niche uses doesn't exactly rescue a cantrip from the suck heap though.

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren Misty step costs a spell slot so that might not be an option, same with invis. maybe you cant get to melee and want to make a ranged attack with advantage.

KorvinStarmast

@SirCinnamon Yay for sir Cinnamon. :)

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri I'm arguing that the usage is not all that niche. It's not top tier by any means but there's worse and some people have a lot of cantrips

Keep in mind it can grant advantage on spell attacks - good insurance if youre going to pop a large attack roll spell next turn

KorvinStarmast

15:32

@SirCinnamon Keeping an enemy from attacking is a neat idea for a long life. :)

GreySage

Off topic: I woke up today to rep cap. It was nice.

HellSaint

@goodguy5 Yeah, it seems he played with people doing this investigation for loot thing (I didn't even know that was a thing) and thought this is how it's ruled?

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren Misty step is a spell, true strike is a cantrip that can be used all day (no matter its various shortcomings)

I wish that, being a cantrip, true strike would allow you to increase the number of people who get advantage as you go up in tier: 2 at levl5, 3 at level11, 4 at level 17. (Same way damage cantrips scale) That would be cool ... but maybe OP?

HellSaint

But I want to make sure he is fine with having no loot process at all and just giving them the loot.

KorvinStarmast

At level 5, I cast true strike. Next turn, I and my barbarian friend both get advantage on the next attack. What say ye, chatizens of RPG.SE with much brain power to spare?

Helwar

15:34

@KorvinStarmast just if it let you have advantage in ALL your attacks in the next turn, that would make it easier to pick it over other cantrips

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar My idea is that it's a team benefit, not a solo benefit, otherwise the multi classing cheese of Paladin smites could get silly nova out of that ....

Axoren

@SirCinnamon I'll concede that it's great for situations in which you REALLY want to hit next turn with something big, but in terms of Spell Attacks, there's nothing worth devoting a turn to in the 6th Level and over club that even uses spell attacks.

KorvinStarmast

> if you catch my drift ...

@Helwar And it's still a cantrip, not a spell.

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren It depends on your other options though, its all relative

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast If you're short on spell resources, you're spending too many per combat.

Helwar

15:36

@KorvinStarmast taht's why I don't like multiclassing. i don't disallow it in my games, but.... I mean. This is DND, whe are here to play the stereotipes, if i wanted flexibility I'd play mutants and masterminds :P

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast Cast things like Animate Objects, or Melf's Meteors

Sir Cinnamon

"what is worth one action" varies based on what your choices are which is way too varied to calculate

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren But MC is a thing, so I have to temper any suggestions with an eye toward cheese ... even though cheese can be good and silly fun.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Something to make true strike useful would be good. I find it very underwhelming, personally.

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren You're arguing that no PC should ever be low or out of spell slots?

KorvinStarmast

15:37

@nitsua60 Yeah, it needs a tweak, what do you think of my mod?

kviiri

@Axoren That's overgeneralizing it a bit isn't it...

Axoren

@SirCinnamon The general argument for Truestrike at this point is being 35 ft. from the edge of a wall with the ability to cast cantrips but having no spell resources.

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast as said, not bad... Combat Advantage is easy to come by, so It's not a huge power up

Axoren

If you're in that situation, and the sun is shining, and it's a Tuesday, then sure. Truestike is fine.

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar I want to, some day, actually get to play a warlock beyond 4th level in a real campaign, I have so many ideas for that class ... sigh. Life's only partially fair.

nitsua60

15:39

@Helwar I feel similarly, which is why my preference is to allow multiclassing but to only allow Clerics, Fighters, ~~Thieves~~ Rogues, and Wizards =)

Sir Cinnamon

@Axoren That's an example of many - an example of a time where you have a few choices, none amazing and you can fill your turn with a true strike

Axoren

But I'd rather have a number of other general purpose tactical options available to fill the spot when Truestrike would be useful.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Oh dear, my ranger is persona non grata! (Or is he Cheese, not grated?)

nitsua60

Aug 24 '17 at 2:55, by nitsua60

@Adeptus I'm tempted to play a Dr/Ftr multiclass and tell the people at the table I'm a ranger. Then watch their jaws drop as I seem to work well =)

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 I love how our party in Chatizen's is a bit non-optimized, but it's a great mix.

Sir Cinnamon

15:41

@nitsua60 Misread as a "Doctor Fighter" multiclass

might be interesting

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Fighter 1/Druid X?

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast No, vice-versa. Because a ranger shouldn't be wildshaping, IMO.

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast Chatizen? you mean us? xD

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Awe, so no chance at the Jargoon Pard ... (sorry, old Andre Norton reference there ...)

nitsua60

So a DEX-fighter with archery, light armor, and just a touch of nature-themed utility magic.

KorvinStarmast

15:43

@Helwar We have a roll20 group that is trying to survive Tome of Annihilation, so that is one usage of Chatizen. The other usage is all of us who show up in this chat. That was the usage I meant.

nitsua60

@Helwar Yeah, there are a handful of us regulars here who play(ed?) online. But since the last month of the school year hit we've been on a life-interferes hiatus.

NautArch

@nitsua60 start fighter or start druid?

nitsua60

@NautArch Haven't thought about it that hard. Probably Druid if I'm trying to "optimize" it; probably Fighter if I'm making sense of the story.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I'd start fighter (spell conc) and so that the other players think I am a martial. :)

nitsua60

(A ranger is just a fighter who chooses to range--enough time ranging in a magic-pregnant world and you pick up some magic, it turns out.)

KorvinStarmast

15:45

@nitsua60 As I discovered. Rangers are also a great template for a Highwayman. :) (Cue Alfred Noyes poem ...) as sung by Lorena McKennitt ....

Yuuki

What if you're an anxious driver? Would you be a Localroadsman?

Mike Q

@nitsua60 Kinda like playing a fighter/cleric instead of paladin

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast why though?

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar Why What?

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast why are they great templates for a Highwayman? :)

doppelgreener

15:48

@GreySage congrats!

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar Live in the woods. Use bow and rapier. Move fast, hide easy, and shout out "Stand and Deliver!" (My background for my 5e ranger in ToA is a criminal. ) I have run a number of Rangers over the years who are as much Robinhood/criminals as anything else. :)

doppelgreener

KENNETH WILLIAMS - 'Hand Up Your Sticks' - 1961 45rpm

►

Axoren

Cleric (Trickery) 4/Champion 5/ Rogue (Thief) 11
Turn 1: Duplicity
Turn 2: Approach and Attack Action + Bonus Off-hand / Move Duplicate to Target before Attack

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast I see :)

KorvinStarmast

Heh, one of my 1e Rangers got hanged by the neck until dead due to robbing a cleric (who we had figured out was evil) who hired assassins to capture him and bring him to (kangaroo court) justice.

The party's attempt at a jail break failed. And so, Roderick swung.

Axoren

15:51

Grants some underlying Spellcasting with it, but nothing too earth shattering for a Dual-wielding build.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast from the noose or with his sword?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch From the noose .. by the neck until dead.

Axoren

3 attacks, 4 with haste, a crit chance of 27%, 6d6 Sneak Attack Dice

KorvinStarmast

That was the sentence. So I rolled up a new char.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Born to hang.

Axoren

15:52

The 1 turn setup kills me, though

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren Most campaigns don't get past level 11. @NautArch Born for Adventure. (Song by Styx)

Helwar

oh, i forgot. y'all gave me advice the other day on how to make sure my players understood I was no longer a care bear DM, and they stepped in dangerous territory. It worked wonders, they were scared of talking with a beggar, in case it was an enemy in disguise... Maybe worked too well... but it's fun for the moment :P

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast My groups are currently at/above 15.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast never had to worry about drowning, though :)

@Helwar nice! Definitely don't want to make them paranoid (that's another game, citizen)

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren I am in one group with levels 13-15, but I'd never give build advice beyond 11. most games don't last that long.

NautArch

15:54

@KorvinStarmast I'm up to level 15/16 in two campaigns :)

Helwar

@NautArch nope, but they noticed right away someone trying to Scry them, and had been paranoid about that. Wich is fun. Jokingly, they all want to make tinfoil hats :P

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch heh, we had an episode where the group had to swim in an underwater tunnel. Worked out that our hobbit thief held his breath long enough to drag the guide rope through. It was a near run thing ....

Axoren

Level 11 build would be Champ 6/Tricky 4/Rogue 1

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren For Highwayman?

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast Highwayman?

KorvinStarmast

15:56

Not sure what that build is for. To get best out of True Strike?

Axoren

No, for getting the best out of Elven Accuracy and a 19-20 crit range.

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren Aha! Got it, thanks.

Axoren

Without a reliable source of advantage, it would need to be a team build to make the crit fishing approach viable

Otherwise, if you're never getting advantage without working for it, Elven Accuracy isn't worth the Feat investiture.

But if you ARE getting advantage, it becomes an astronomically powerful engine.

KorvinStarmast

Not when your crit damage die comes up with a 1. :p it happens. :)

Axoren

That's why you need to be something like a Rogue or Paladin to pump dice into the mix.

KorvinStarmast

15:59

I am glad the elven accuracy feat isn't an "I win button" to be honest with you. (As it is, it's pretty nice)

Axoren

If you can get consistent advantage, average DPR hits 100 pretty early.

Within that 11-level limit you have

NautArch

@Helwar ring of mind shielding :)

Axoren

Honestly, the Paladin of Vengeance may be the better option here

Helwar

@NautArch does it work against scry? it's not mind reading :s

Axoren

@Helwar Nondetection stops divination effects from learning about you, doesn't it?

I think THAT ring might stop that

But Mind Shielding, I don't think so.

KorvinStarmast

16:02

@Axoren OK, your Champ 6/Tricky 4/Rogue 1, in what order to you take levels, starting from level one and playing up to 11. WHat's your idea there?

NautArch

@Helwar whoops, amulet of proof against detection

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch When crafting that item, you are first required to find the only roll of tin foil in the whole game world ... :)

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast Champ 5, Tricky 2, then fill in levels to get boosts as needed. Probably Rogue last.

And alternative is to go Paladin (Vengeance) last

KorvinStarmast

get the feat at 4?

Axoren

Yeah.

Feat is crucial before you get reliable advantage because you can always get sprinkles of it from something.

Extra attack is crucial for when you aren't getting advantage and just need to contribute an extra hit.

Arcane Trickster can get one advantage attack every round, but that sucks because it takes away an attack from the turn and it only grants advantage on one attack.

Combining it with a familiar would maybe get you two advantage attacks per turn if it was someone else's familiar and if they readied a bonus? Lol

The gymnastics to make this work is wearing on me.

KorvinStarmast

16:09

Wood elf or High Elf? High elf for the cantrip "True Strike" perhaps? 8^D

Axoren

Paladin (Vengeance) 5, Fighter (Champion) 3, Paladin (Vengeance) 3 more

Advantage is more valuable than increased crit range (14.26% to crit with 20 and advantage vs. 10% chance to crit with 19-20 without advantage)

KorvinStarmast

Wood elf or high elf?

Axoren

Not sure.

Wood-elf gets some hide-y stuff

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, high elf gets a wizard cantrip, IIRC.

Axoren

If you're thinking about Booming or Greenflame, I thought about them

But it's really hard to get them to outpace having multiple opportunities to crit.

KorvinStarmast

16:14

Yeah, I don't think they are the kit I was looking at.

SPavel

Eaglet is flopped over

Axoren

Regardless. At 4, the character will have a 14.26% chance to crit on the first round, then a 26.49% chance to crit at least once on following rounds by TWF. At 5th, it becomes 26.49% first round, 36.97% following rounds with TWF. At 8th level, first round becomes 46.86% chance to crit in first round, 61.26% on following rounds with TWF.

And all of these are at least one stats.

The effects of the Channel Divinity last for a minute.

That effectively makes this build something of a boss killer.

If you end up in a party with a Mastermind, someone casting Faerie Fire, some good boi using the Help action for you

KorvinStarmast

Eh, I don't have the Trickery Cleric chan divinity to hand. What is it?

Axoren

You could end up being incredibly wasteful

Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create an illusory duplicate of yourself.

As an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you.

KorvinStarmast

I like the Elf Two weapon fighter framework that you built this on.

Axoren

16:22

Essentially, spend 1 turn to get a migrate-able advantage source.

KorvinStarmast

Neat idea, and it comes on line after you have the feat, right, in terms of the build order?

Axoren

But it's sloppy.

The Cleric version

The Paladin version I like much better

But it's better suited for single-target takedowns.

KorvinStarmast

Hmm, why not all rogue and a bit of tricksy cleric? The SA damage goes up sooner that way

You need the crit fish, right?

Axoren

The main benefit of crit fishing in 5e is that crits auto hit.

So, I don't need to worry about attack bonus.

Mike Q

And rogue gets at most one sneak attack per round, whereas a TWF crit fisher can get multiple big-damage attacks more quickly

KorvinStarmast

16:25

yeah, although, with prof bonus and the usual ability plus, rolling a 19 almost never misses ....

Axoren

I guess, yeah

KorvinStarmast

Thinking through the cantrip choices, need to check XGTE to see what looks better ....

Axoren

As long as they get advantage, that's 27.10 chance to crit per attack.

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren Bounded accuracy at work ...

Axoren

Honestly, Whisper Bard might be better than Rogue

Just because they can nova in the same turn

Yuuki

16:27

I just thought of a comical situation where a bunch of spellcasters find themselves in a cave and immediately everyone casts Light.

And they all blind each other because it's so bright.

Mike Q

Sneak attack is +1d6 per round per 2 levels. If the average of +1d6 is +3.5, then we're looking at a mere +1.75 damage per round per level

Axoren

@Yuuki And then all of them end the spell because everyone else has light up.

Repeat ad infinitum.

KorvinStarmast

@Axoren It's a cantrip, so why not? Give the casters something to do until the monsters show up. :)

Axoren

@KorvinStarmast Then there's that one guy who was busy casting Truestrike when everyone was casting Light because he couldn't see this round.

Cleric (Trickery) seems like the better option in theory.

KorvinStarmast

Just don't cast thunderclap ... in that crowded cave

Axoren

16:32

But in practice, I can see it going poorly.

You spend your action to create a duplicate on turn 1.
Target moves.
You spend your bonus action to move duplicate to target on turn 2. Attack once.
Target moves.
You spend your bonus action to move duplicate to target on turn 3. Attack once.

Yuuki

I wonder if there's a Butterfly Sting-esque build in 5e.

I like setting up massive hits for other people.

Axoren

However, it would be nice to get Opportunity Attacks as a result.

I guess that's what makes up for it.

As long as you can move your duplicate in 30 ft. to it's target each round, it doesn't matter what the target does unless they're a Rogue, or a teleporting Spellcaster.

nitsua60

@MikeQ that's how I roll:

Nov 22 '16 at 23:55, by nitsua60

@BESW Actually, I bet there is a computer term for what I did: play a Ftr 1/Cl X rather than a "true" Paladin. 'Cause in my idea of D&D you only need 2 or 3 classes to cover the spectrum =)

(Played all of Curse of Strahd with a Ftr1/ClX MC.)

Axoren

So, Tricky 2 --> Champ 5.
At 2, crit at 9.75%
At 3, crit at 19.00%
At 6, crit at 27.10%
At 7, same but with an extra attack.

With the Cleric setup, it's only worth Dual Wielding if your target isn't moving away from you and the duplicate.

Otherwise, you're only getting your main-hand attack anyways

So something like a Rapier would be better than Shortswords

I think I did that progression wrong.

Mike Q

@Axoren Whenever the target moves, do you get an opportunity attack?

Axoren

16:45

If you're next to them (which you should be) yeah

Mike Q

It would probably be more efficient to team up with another melee PC

Axoren

Actually, Champ 5 --> Tricky 2 is better.

At 3, crit at 10%, 19% on advantage
At 4, crit at 10%, 27% on advantage
At 5, multiple attempts at above.
At 7, crit at 27% with at least 2 attempts per round.

@MikeQ While you're right, it's kind of shitty to make a build that requires someone do something specific for you every combat.

When they could be contributing in their own way for potentially the whole party.

Assuming a split of half martial, half casters, he'd be providing advantage to two people, thereabouts

Yuuki

@Axoren I like doing this on occasion. Which is why I'm interested in a Butterfly Sting build for 5e.

Axoren

Diviner Mastermind

Mike Q

@Axoren Right, but this is synergy rather than parasitic; the melee PCs want to be there anyway, and they also benefit from ganging up

Axoren

16:52

Prepare the Help action for after the Critter's first attack, use the Help action via Bonus before their first attack.

Hope they have Elven Accuracy, lol

Yuuki

Eh, it's not quite the same.

Butterfly Sting was just so weirdly fun because I'd poke for tiny amounts of damage but hand off the crit to the Barbarian, who would just destroy everything with the crit damage.

Axoren

If I were building a full party, I could definitely place a proper crit fisher in it, no problem.

But as it stands, standalone builds don't seem to be ready for full access advantage Elf Rogues

Maybe when Wizards releases Mantle of Fury Mystics for official release.

A Wolf Totem Barbarian: Wolf. While you're raging, your friends have advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature within 5 feet of you that is hostile to you. The spirit of the wolf makes you a leader of hunters.

An Elven Accuracy Crit Fisher, Champ 3/Rogue X

Backrow Cleric, Backrow Bard/Wizard

Sdjz

is it me or is this the same answer that just got deleted from the same user?

Mike Q

@Axoren Isn't that already covered by the rules for ganging up?

Axoren

@MikeQ There's no Flanking rules by default

kviiri

17:02

@Sdjz Yea, probably they didn't know they could edit or somesuch.

Axoren

To grant an ally advantage, you need to either use the Help Action (100% chance, 1 attack) or Grapple the target (contested roll, until enemy breaks free).

During that turn, they are not contributing to ending the fight, only prolonging it.

NautArch

@kviiri yeah, that's my feeling. Same answer, with the edited added line.

Axoren

So, there has to be more value in them giving you that crit, than them doing literally anything else.

kviiri

@Axoren Grapple doesn't grant advantage, you need to shove them down.

Mike Q

@Axoren Oh huh. I could have sworn that if 2+ allied creatures are in melee vs the same enemy, then they get advantage on attacks. That's not part of the core rules?

kviiri

17:03

Shove and grapple is effective though, because then they won't be able to get up without breaking the grapple first

Axoren

@MikeQ Not at all.

@kviiri I guess I'm thinking of a combat maneuver or something.

GreySage

@MikeQ Rogues get sneak attack in that scenario, and things with Pack Tactics like wolves get advantage, but not in general

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ No, it is not. Certain creatures have pack tactics, as does the Wolf Totem barbarian.

Also kobold PC class from volos

Yuuki

17:21

@MikeQ You might be confusing that with sneak attack.

NautArch

@MikeQ flanking?

kviiri

Flan-king, the king of flans

NautArch

mmmm flan

kviiri

Like the flans in Final Fantasy

Yuuki

@kviiri The rabbit girl?

kviiri

17:34

@Yuuki I haven't played one with a rabbit girl, as far as I can remember

Maximillian

Oh her. She's in.... 12, I think?

Yuuki

@kviiri It's Final Fantasy 12 and the joke is that her name is Fran.

kviiri

Oh, okay

Maximillian

Well a Franking bonus is another discussion. I think we're focused on Flanking.

kviiri

Franking bonus gives +50% attack against the Romans

Sir Cinnamon

17:42

Hanking Bonus is proficiency with propane and propane accessories

Axoren

Tricky 2 --> Champ 5
At 1, 5% crit, two attempts (9.75% for at least 1 crit)
At 2, 9.75% crit, 1 round startup, at least one attempt (18.55% for at least 1 crit with two attacks)
At 5, 19% crit, 1 round startup, at least one attempt (34.39% for at least 1 crit with two attacks)
At 6, 27.10% crit, 1 round startup, at least one attempt (60.44% for at least 1 crit with two attacks)
At 7, 27.10% crit, 1 round startup, at least two attempts (60.44% for at least 1 crit with two attacks, 75.11% chance of at least 1 crit with three attacks)

Mike Q

@NautArch Is it called flanking in 5e? I thought flanking was a 3.X and older concept that involved geometry

Sir Cinnamon

@MikeQ Flanking is not a default rule in 5e, I think it's mentioned as a variant somewhere though

NautArch

@MikeQ it's a variant DMG rule, requiring two allies to be exactly on opposing squares/hexes of an enemy creature.

Axoren

Champ 5 --> Tricky 2
At 1, 5% crit, two attempts (9.75% for at least 1 crit with two attacks)
At 3, 10% crit, two attempts (19% for at least 1 crit with two attacks)
At 4, 10% crit, two attempts (19% for at least 1 crit with two attacks, but now sprinkled advantage goes HAM)
At 5, 10% crit, three attempts (27.10% for at least 1 crit with three attacks)
At 7, 27.10% crit, 1 round startup, at least two attempts (60.44% for at least 1 crit with two attacks, 75.11% chance of at least 1 crit with three attacks)

Champ 5 --> Tricky 2 has the highest Power Leap of the two. Use it on unsuspecting GMs whose jaws you want dropped.

I've finally settled on the build I'm going to use.

NautArch

17:52

@Axoren what's the build order?

Axoren

This will be my go-to for when the party wants a Bless Bot and things go south.

@NautArch Cleric (Trickster) 2, then Fighter (Champion) 5, then whatever after that

Generally, a party won't care what you do with your Cleric build as long as you've got Christian Marching Powder (Healing Word) and Bless up 90% of the time.

NautArch

@Axoren hmmm, i like. I'm debating about retiring my DM killing Bard and rolling up something new. I love playing him, but the DMs get very frustated.

Axoren

DM killing bard?

NautArch

@Axoren our clerics have almost never cast bless. My paladin usually does, though.

Axoren

Bless is too good in a party with 3+ martials

Mike Q

17:54

> PC: "I roll to attack"
DM: "Who are you attacking?"
PC: "You"

Axoren

I honestly don't know what a cleric would do other than that and mashing face?

NautArch

@Axoren My Lore Bard 13/ Warlock 2 has a strong tool for nearly every situation. DMs get frustrated.

Axoren

I personally like running a Glamour Bard in the same party as a Barbarian

NautArch

The past several battles, I don't think I've lost more than 20 actual hit points.

Axoren

Generally, Temp HP on top of Resistance is a good way to ruin Challenge Rating estimates

Even just plopping a Heroism on the local Barbarian is a solid choice, freeing you up to be any kind of Bard

Cutting Words is brutal, but I've seen better use come out of just taking the hits and resisting them with some long-term HP stacking or letting the party handle damage resistances.

NautArch

17:57

Tihngs didn't help when i got a Staff of Swarming Insects where I can bring up a swarm of insects around me that Heavily Obscure me, but Ian see through them.

Axoren

That's the DM's fault entirely

That staff is really good

NautArch

@Axoren random treasure roll for that one.

Axoren

If you're getting random staffs as treasure, that's gotta be a pretty high level game

You're talking about getting that towards the end of 15 right?

NautArch

I generally cast hypnotic pattern (at disadvantage on save with CLI lyre), bigby's hand, heat metal as my concentration spells, then go into the swarm and Eldritch Blast with advantage.

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