TRPG General Chat

Sir Cinnamon

15:00

Unlimited OAs?

kviiri

The one optional rule we've been back-and-fro'ing with is flanking. We finally agreed to bury it after the last session.

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri Opposite sides of an enemy giving advantage?

kviiri

@SirCinnamon yeah

NautArch

@goodguy5 dno't see a downside. You get advantage on an OA against that creature and still only get one. Just doesn't use your reaction (so you can use it for other things)

@kviiri I'd say don't. We use it and it makes gaining advantage really easy.

which is fun, but a lot of abilities trigger off advantage.

goodguy5

but couldn't a fighter mark three targets?

NautArch

15:03

so if you're looking for a more heroic campaign, go for it.

goodguy5

(or four)

(Or, technically, 8)

NautArch

@goodguy5 woof, it does read like that. That seems OP.

kviiri

> Me: "Hey, are we using the flanking rule? I don't personally like it, but can't remember what we agreed."
> GM: "I don't remember. Why don't you like it?"
> Me: "It always end up with everyone standing in a line."
> GM: "Oh, I guess. I don't remember what we agreed."
> Other player: "Coinflip, heads means flanking's ok and tails it's not?"
> GM: "Sure."

We got heads and literally 10 minutes afterwards everyone was standing in a big line.

> GM: "ok that's a line."

NautArch

@kviiri don't arrange your NPCs in a line :)

goodguy5

@kviiri lightning bolt

NautArch

15:05

we often use the flanking for advantage and rule that additional fighters get flanking as long as two are on opposite sides.

and yes, lightning bolt @goodguy5

kviiri

@goodguy5 The line alternates between friendlies and enemies. Everyone flanking everyone.

NautArch

@kviiri WHy'd you arrange enemies every other space?

kviiri

@NautArch I'm a player, I arrange nothing.

But that's the sensible thing to do when flanking is a mechanic.

goodguy5

@kviiri I understand. Everyone gets a lightning bolt. bbeg doesn't care about minions

NautArch

@kviiri Oh, well that's on the DM then. That was silly. Like in high school when we went to go see a movie with girls and sat every other seat so we'd all be seating next to girls. Guess what, that didn't work then either.

SPavel

15:07

@kviiri That's essentially how we got the Western Front in WWI, everyone tried to leapfrog the other guys

kviiri

@NautArch Ugh...

@NautArch You don't get it? The flanking rule encourages that.

NautArch

@kviiri Yeah, not one of our smoothest moments.

SPavel

@NautArch That's suboptimal. What you need to do is boy girl boy boy girl boy boy

kviiri

You're essentially telling us to keep the rule and then play as if it wasn't there.

NautArch

@kviiri Only if the enemy PCs are lined up for it. Otherwise your line is three creatures, which is fine. THat's flanking.

@SPavel yeah, we didn't think it totally through. And ghostbusters 2 was meh.

SPavel

15:08

@NautArch A meh movie is the best time to have a girl next to you

kviiri

@NautArch If there's a 1-on-1 combat, either side gains an advantage by adding another guy in the line. And then the other side. And then the other again.

So it's either stand in line or intentionally forgo advantages.

NautArch

@kviiri So he has enemy PCs disengage from their current fight in order to get into an advantage position?

SPavel

This is why I like the "combat zone" model where you move characters in/out of a combat zone and don't track positioning more finely than that

kviiri

@NautArch Rarely, but that's usually not necessary either.

SPavel

The fighter is holding back the ogre by the stone statue, the wizard is being eaten by the ogre's hamster familiar back by the reeds, and the three rogues are brutally murdering the hobgoblin minions somewhere by the lake

NautArch

15:12

@kviiri I'm just saying we've never had the Advantage Daisy Chain in our 4 years of playing with flanking.

SPavel

I always forget that 5e's been out for ages and ages

kviiri

@NautArch How come?

SPavel

I thought - 4 years? But there was no Advantage in 4e!

kviiri

@SPavel There was Combat Advantage, but that was different.

Rubiksmoose

Well you can get advantage if there are players standing on adjacent sides as well

kviiri

15:13

I mean, if A's are our guys and B's are bad guys, we often have a situation like this where A and B are next to each other: AB

Rubiksmoose

I think

kviiri

Someone joins the fight, on either side. Let's say B. They get advantage by flanking A like this: BAB.

Rubiksmoose

So:

B
AB

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose According to which rules?

Now there's two easy flanking opportunities for further A side guys: ABAB or BABA. And the chain'll grow...

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri I'm asking . 5e I thought (we don't play with them)

SPavel

15:15

It's more advantageous to go:
-A-
ABA
-A-

Then B is dead real fast

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose Okay,the 5e flanking rule is basically that enemies next to the same target will grant each other advantage if a straight imaginary line connecting the two passes through two opposing sides of the square containing their target or two opposing corners.

Rubiksmoose

ah ok

kviiri

Of course there's also some added trickery: after someone in the middle of the chain has landed their blow, they could move perpendicular to the chain.

Just one tile, so they don't even provoke opportunity attacks.

But that stinks a bit of cheese to me, if everyone starts using it.

NautArch

@kviiri Mostly encounter design. We don't always take flanking (sometimes we have to separate to fight) and the enemies use it sometimes as well.

kviiri

@SPavel Protip: there's a monospace format mode available... I just can't remember it..

@NautArch But what's the tenet of encounter design preventing that?

NautArch

15:21

@kviiri how enemy PCs are placed and the strategy of our PCs. The latter may be more of why in that our 4-5 person group generally only has 2 frontliners.

kviiri

@NautArch How does enemy placement affect it? They move to exploit flanking too don't they?

NautArch

so the opportunity for flanking isr eally almost always just me and the barbarian.

@kviiri Now that i'm thinking about it, it really likely is mostly that we don't have a lot of frontliners FOR flanking.

kviiri

We have three and a half: my monk, our paladin, two NPC warriors and our bard (I count the latter three as half each because they're nowhere near as buff as me and the pally)

SPavel

15:38

@kviiri Chat markdown breaks horribly with multi-line text

kviiri

@SPavel Ah right

Unsolved problems in Computer Science:
> Is P = NP?
> Is there a O(n²) time algorithm for matrix multiplication?
> Is there a way to use chat markup with multi-line text?

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri Discord has some pretty impressive markup tools

SPavel

@kviiri Also, is there a way to get CSS to center vertically (the answer is no)

Mike Q

@SirCinnamon Impressive, or nonpolynomially impressive?

Sir Cinnamon

@MikeQ Calculating....

SPavel

15:44

Unless you have flex-box support, in which case it's still no, but harder

kviiri

@SPavel CSS is probably the hardest problem in Computer Science.

Maiko Chikyu

Hey everyone

kviiri

hi

Yuuki

@kviiri No, that would be naming your variables and functions/methods.

SPavel

@Yuuki x, y, x1, y1, x2, y2...

Yuuki

15:53

@SPavel SPavel.setIsShot(true)

Maiko Chikyu

Guys does anyone know if Avernum(The game) has an adventure module for D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder?

SPavel

@Yuuki IndexOutOfBoundsException on line 67895

Mike Q

@MaikoChikyu No, but I'm almost certain that it doesn't have an associated Pathfinder adventure/module

Yuuki

@SPavel How do you get an out of bounds index on a boolean setter? Ah, the true final boss of Computer Science: debugging.

SPavel

@Yuuki It's one of those cases when you have a comment that needs to be in there or the code won't work

Rubiksmoose

16:09

Oh last call on the bounty for the mounted initiative question. (4 hours left)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I think i'm leaving the phantasmal force unbountied (so it gets split amongst the answers?)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch If you do not award your bounty within 7 days (plus the grace period), the highest voted answer created after the bounty started with a minimum score of 2 will be awarded half the bounty amount (or the full amount, if the answer is also accepted). If two or more eligible answers have the same score (their scores are tied), the oldest answer is chosen. If there's no answer meeting those criteria, no bounty is awarded to anyone.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose ah, then no bounty i guess

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch indeed indeed.

anything I could do to improve mine that would make it good in your mind?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I honestly like it, but the negative voting isn't helping my decision making.

Rubiksmoose

16:14

I truly think this is a case where the game left things intentionally vague for the DM to adjudicate. Thus there isn't nor will there ever be a correct answer to it.

NautArch

and if our discussion is continued to it's logical conclusion, it does seem like it shouldn't work at all.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Unless of course the DM rules that illusions work in the other way in which case it does.

I definitely prefer one interpretation over the other, but I cannot say that my interpretation is more supposrted by the rules

(fwiw, I'm not trying to convince yout to vote my way or anything I'm just talking it out.)

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose always true :) I guess it's also odd to have the bit about rationalizing the illogical if that rationalization wasn't helpful to the spell.

Rubiksmoose

I'm honestly not sure why I got that single downvote just a couple minutes ago. No comment.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose Some joker trying to bump up his own answer?

That's usually why I downvote /s

Sir Cinnamon

16:18

Phantasmal Force is weird like that - its called "force" but the description makes no reference to whether or not the illusion can make someone think force is being applied to them

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch It is helpful in many cases (for example the one in the spell description itself). And in fact it is helpful in this case as well. But it works to the advanatage of both sides depending on how you interpret it.

@SPavel YOU MONSTER lol

Sir Cinnamon

I.E can it be a wall? an object they can lift? chains or spikes floating above them?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose very true, but without community support it's hard for me to punch through the bonus rep.

SPavel

@SirCinnamon The force is of the 80s action cartoon team variety

NautArch

I generally agree, though.

SPavel

16:20

Justice Force, Action Force, Phantasmal Force

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I mean it is only one downvote. I'm thinking most people didn't even see or read my answer honestly. There is a lot to read up top.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose and also no upvotes.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch yup, I meant that as well.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Should Interpretation 2 read "CAN"?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch IDK what you are talking about, that always said can :P

NautArch

16:23

@Rubiksmoose Okay, talking this through...

Target is chained with hot spike manacles. They aren't real, but ARE dealing damage that the target THINKS is real.

So we've established that the target believes the manacles are real and hurting them.

Rubiksmoose

Also to be fair, the awarding of a bounty does not have to come with a checkmark. I'm actually not sure what factors you should apply when deciding which one to award

SPavel

@NautArch Illusory manacles that deal phantom pain...there's got to be a huge fetish community that would be all over this

NautArch

The question is, Have they convinced themselves they can't move and can't (illogical outcome of not moving is explained by their belief)? Or do they move and illogical outcome of how they were able to move when they believed they couldn't is...

Rubiksmoose

we are talking about this question in cae anybody was wondering: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/77572/…

Sir Cinnamon

Maybe off topic or irrelevant but - as a DM I would allow the chains to hold someone down

It would be simple enough to say "My illusion is a cage of white hot iron bars that the target would be too afraid to touch" or something else that would accomplish the same effect

Rubiksmoose

16:27

@NautArch You could even argue in the first one that there is no illogical outcome unless they try to escape. If they believe they are chained they may not even try.

Sir Cinnamon

so it being cool chains seems not overpowered

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch But yeah the second case, where they try to escape and are able to and the spell forces them to keep believing it, but not actually to the point of imposing the restraining condition on them

Honestly, my answer could be one sentence: It is up to the DM, the rules are intentionally unclear here.

But I thought I would try and be helpful and outline the arguments to give a DM a bit of guidance. Maybe I should not have. Because my whole point is that there is not a correct answer. Because there is not one.

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose Cast guidance on the DM. They are a creature and thus a valid target.

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ XD

It is funny because we will argue here until our faces are blue about things which are entirely and purposefully left vague so as to allow the DM to adjudicate them. There is no right answer to some questions.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I don't think I ever asked about Restrained condition :)

My main example was prone, Convinced the chains dragged them down.

Yuuki

16:33

@Rubiksmoose There may be no correct answer, but that doesn't mean there isn't an answer that's better than others.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oops yeah. Fair enough. Some answers got into that a bit and l clearly lost track of the original question.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, prone was really the only condition i was asking about.

Rubiksmoose

@Yuuki It also doesn't mean there is a better answer for everybody either.

NautArch

I don't think any other conditions make sense.

Sir Cinnamon

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/103672/can-phantasmal-force-apply-conditions
did you guys see this question?
"Likewise, if your illusion is that the creature is chained to the ground, it might rationalize its ability to move around by thinking that the chains are very long."

Not saying that's correct, just funny that it uses the exact example

Oh maybe that's not coincidence - I didnt realize the chains question was so old

NautArch

16:37

@SirCinnamon who you calling old?

Maiko Chikyu

I just realized after responding to a question.

NautArch

I see the 'conditions' more like that they might not believe they can move (they can), but they don't suffer any real mechanical effects. (no disadvantage on attacks, etc.)

Maiko Chikyu

Even a device that generates 2 coppers worth of value costs 273000 GP in D&D 3.5

Yuuki

... ~~Alchemy~~ Mayo jar?

Maiko Chikyu

A candle maker lol

Rubiksmoose

16:40

@NautArch But yeah. Best I can do. There is no right answer. I'd bet money this never gets anywhere closer to an answer. Illusions are meant to be DM fiat and this is a prime example.

Both sides have a point, but neither has better rules support.

Yuuki

If I were DMing, I might add a 'surprise' option for the alchemy jar that picks a random item off the DMG to fill the jar.

Rubiksmoose

I think it is dumb and wish they had written the spells better, but it is what it is.

Yuuki

A jar of full of... sextants?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose convinced.

Sir Cinnamon

@Rubiksmoose The difference between "can make a target think an object has physical presence" and not is pretty big - that would be all the clarification needed IMO

Rubiksmoose

16:44

@SirCinnamon But thus far the figures that control these things have explicitly said "Up to the DM" in response to these types of inquiries. They seem to not at all be inclined to adress the issue mechanically.

Would it be trivial as far as the effort put into the clarification? Probably. Would it actually solve issues? Probably not, I'm guessing if they said that it would only inspire another tier of confusing illusion questions.

Sir Cinnamon

IMO if the target believes the thing hard enough so as to take damage from it they believe it hard enough to think it physically exists, even when making contact with it or struggling against it

But yeah, RAW there is no true answer

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch daww thanks. I really was just venting my frustration about illusions, not trying to convince you. But I definitely appreciate it.

I might just let my mount bounty expire. No new answers besides mine. :(

GreySage

17:09

Has anyone ever run/been in a campaign with significant time and level jumps? Meaning you start at (example) level 1, play a session, then come back sometime in the future as level 3? In Dnd-5e or otherwise?

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage hmmmmm.... I don't think so actually.

Looking at doing something similar?

NautArch

@GreySage have not, but not sure why thre'd a problem. It's milestone levelling with some significant milestones :) THey just lose an opportunity to figure out who their characters are as they grow.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Though honestly, only in very rare cases have I found it easy or beneficial to tie mechanical progression to character narrative development

Sir Cinnamon

@GreySage Honestly that sounds better than starting a campaign at a higher level - dedicate a couple sessions to exciting mid points allowing you to build a characters past.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose Looking at that question and answer, I don't think you can get much better than your own answer. It has rulebook and designer input supporting it and doesn't fall into the logical fallacies the other supported answers do.

Rubiksmoose

17:20

@GreySage I'm glad you think the answer is solid. I was hoping that by posting an answer I might be able to spur some more activity. But it was too old so didn't get attention. The bounty did its job because I think I got an opposing opinion up near the top at least. I just wish I had someone who I could give the rep to.

But it shall go to feed the SE overlords.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose They're so greedy, eating all that overcapped rep

@SirCinnamon I was thinking about making a higher level campaign, since my playgroup has done a couple up from level 1 recently, but most of us are still fairly new so I was worried that they might get confused or not understand the classes mechanical features if we just jump in at level 4 or 5.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage They ate too greedily and too deep. Thus they awoke the SE Balrog of old.

SPavel

@GreySage I've flirted with the idea of rapid-level-up games. Something like 1 session = one level. With ~4 combats a session, players get a feel for their PC's weakness and immediately have a chance to correct it.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I'm starring this comment so that others coming later can see it on the board and chip in.

kviiri

We occasionally do "a couple of weeks have passed since the last session", but not rapid level ups during that time so far.

SPavel

17:28

kviiri

@SPavel The fact that the net ends near the top-left corner causes me some anxiety.

SPavel

@kviiri I didn't even notice that

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Thanks for the proofreading help, I really made a hash of that answer on the first time around. :p

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Not a problem at all. I'm sure you've seen some of the stuff I post that is wayyy worse. Yours wasn't even bad. At least when I saw it. :)

Plus, hash is yummy.

KorvinStarmast

With ketchup, or salsa, yes. :)

Rubiksmoose

17:42

@KorvinStarmast Good answers are like sausage. Just don't look through the edit history ;)

The Oracle

3

Q: Is this the sort of place to ask about game design for my own game?

I want to ask about game design for a totally homebrew game I'm doing. But having read the rules it appears the questions are specifically known tabletops. Is asking about how I can design my game against the rules? If so, any suggestions for where else I should look?

SPavel

I'll have to start tagging my own conversations on-topic

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel That won't convince anybody though :P

NautArch

@kviiri needs Mending

Sir Cinnamon

@NautArch Oh no, not again

Rubiksmoose

17:59

Oh no net again!

doppelgreener

18:14

@Rubiksmoose oh nyet!

SPavel

doppelgreener

That's quite the shot

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener XD

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Arrgh, I had mixed up "Yes, and" with "No, but" and gotten to "no and ..." so I fixed it.

@SPavel In Russia, topic is on you!

Yuuki

Okay, so progress on making my Paladin participate more in the story: I have now acquired the magic sword. And it's trying to convince to do so heroic/storybook hero things.

KorvinStarmast

18:23

@Yuuki Is this sword an intelligent item?

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast I haven't asked the DM, but I don't think so?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't?

So far I've had to make a Wisdom save when retreating. I succeeded but got the feeling that charging into the fray would be a much braver and more paladin/knight-esque thing to do.

SPavel

The sword is giving advice, it's intelligent (for certain values of intelligent anyway)

doppelgreener

Sounds like easy advice for a sword to give, being a sword and not a soft bag of mostly water :P

SPavel

I love to give out intelligent swords as treasure

They speak infrequently, and unhelpfully

I gave my level 6 gestalt PCs an epic Intelligent item but all the enchantments were useless ones for fun, like Improved Sunder as a bonus feat

It would constantly demand that the PCs use the sunder, but its mental ability scores were too low to convince anyone

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose looks like my grand kraken plan may get sideshowed. Main campaign next stop appears to be underwater, and at level 16 a Kraken is likely.

Rubiksmoose

18:33

@NautArch Nooooo!

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki @Yuuki My cursed sword of vengeance caused my fighter to have to make a wisdom save, or attack any enemy that had done damage to me. I wonder if your sword is similar, or the same.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, i mean i should probably wait and see if that's in store. Can only imagine the resulting retribution for taking away his encounter idea.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Is this the one with your Pegasus riding paladin?

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast 'tis!

Probably won't bring the pegasus in for this fight :)

KorvinStarmast

Glad to see a campaign going past 11; can't you get the Pegasus a scuba suit?

NautArch

18:36

I can swim at 60' with my cape of the manta ray, so even if the pegasus can breathe underwater his speed will be slower than mine.

Which may still be worth it to be able to kite.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Time for Pegasus to take a vacation, hanging out in a nice place while you do that wet and nasty thing. :)

SPavel

Trade the pegasus in for credit towards a dire shark

NautArch

and now that i hit level 16, I've got polearm master, sentinel, great weapon master and my vengeance ability to move after an OA.

goodguy5

you're just a ball of feats

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Man, that's some lethal right there.

goodguy5

18:38

Here we see, the Katamari Paladin.
na. nanana na na. na na nana naaaaaa.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast cannot wait to unleash it. POtentially, I can fly in and attack for 3 attacks (2 regular, one bonus action from PAM). Then disengage, back up and wait for them to come into my reach. As they hit the reach, I attack with PAM with my reaction and ring it's speed to zero. Back up. Rinse/Repeat.

My base damage if I hit with Great Weapon Master will be a minimum of 20.

Yuuki

Given the way Paladin subclasses work in lore, is it possible to change Oaths?

NautArch

@Yuuki not RAW - unless you go to oathbreaker...which is a DM question.

SPavel

@NautArch what if bow

NautArch

@SPavel ?

SPavel

18:40

@NautArch what if the enemy shoots you with arrows from a bow

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki Only to oathbreaker, and quite frankly, changing oaths strikes me as at odds with what that class kit is built to be. The oath is the source of power. (That's in the book)

Yuuki

@NautArch Hmm... maybe something to bring up with my DM as we've already agreed on a retcon that my character isn't an actual knight from another kingdom.

NautArch

@SPavel Then I get hit with arrows from a bow :). But if they're a ranged fighter it's unlikely they'd be coming at me to begin with.

SPavel

@NautArch You need to get a cool thing where you spin your polearm to deflect the arrow and shout something cool like "You'll have to do better than that!" and then you throw the polearm at the archer and it explodes and when the smoke clears, it's embedded into the ground and you're standing on the tip of the handle and looking badass

Yuuki

@SPavel That's why you multiclass to Warlock and then strike back with Eldritch Blast.

NautArch

18:44

@SPavel depending on the bow, I could potentially get out of range. Pegasus fly speed is 90.

SPavel

@NautArch yeah but that's nowhere near as cool

At least teleport behind them

Mike Q

@Yuuki Yes, the "clean" way to change paladin oaths is to discuss with your DM and have them design a plot hook that lets you do it in exchange for some narrative events

NautArch

@SPavel I can do that :) Although Dimension Door is kind of a waste considered what I can do with a 4th level smite.

SPavel

@NautArch There is no nobler use of your abilities than re-enacting shonen cliches

Yuuki

@MikeQ Right now, the storyline as I know it (the DM might be changing things to suit the plot and for surprises) is that my character has been pretending to be a paladin/knight of a faraway kingdom because he idolizes storybook heroes but his personality is most definitely not suited for it. He has recently found a magical sword and will multiclass into Hexblade warlock in an attempt to "nudge" him onto the righteous path.

SPavel

18:47

Isn't hexblade and warlock the opposite of righteous

Mike Q

@SPavel It can be, but it doesn't have to be. The DM can say that the patron derives its power from a "good" source, or something along those lines.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Wrongteous?

Yuuki

I don't think I'll be multiclassing very far into Hexblade so we won't have to deal with some of the more problematic class features.

Plus, if I did decide to go further, we could always reflavor Accursed Specter as summoning a holy spirit (sans father and son) and Armor of Shadows as an Armor of Light.

SPavel

@Yuuki "Why is your magic light armor all shadowy and sinister?" natural 20 bluff "You can't have shadow without light, doofus."

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel 'the doofus really sells it.

Sir Cinnamon

19:01

A paladin who isnt allowed to curse

You gosh darn goblins had best leave this dungeon before I beat the dickens out of you

Yuuki

@SirCinnamon Those durned goblins with their Victorian-era novels on themes of class disparity.

Sir Cinnamon

@Yuuki At this rate they'll all be dirty commies!

Shoot I think my paladin is Captain America

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon "beat the d**kens out of you" I think you meant ;)

Yuuki

@SirCinnamon Like 60's Captain America, modern Captain America, MCU Captain America, post-modern sleeper-Hydra-agent Captain America?

SPavel

Captain America was mostly anti-Nazis, I thought

Sir Cinnamon

19:05

:43630567 oops

SPavel

What Communists does he fight?

Rubiksmoose

@SirCinnamon lol nothing to see here folks

Sir Cinnamon

It was just the climate of america at the time, I figured there was some depiction in that way

SPavel

None of those are bears or Black Widow

Aside: no way in hell would anyone with the last name Romanov be trained as a deadly secret agent by the KGB

Sir Cinnamon

But there is a communist... swamp man? I cant tell what that is

SPavel

19:09

yeah, it's a lazy enemy for sure

Sir Cinnamon

@SPavel His weapon of choice is... finger... zap....

kviiri

Interestingly, most of the USSR fiction of the Cold War era was about fighting Nazis, not about fighting Americans. The devious capitalist was not portrayed as a threat nearly as often as the West portrayed the devious communist.

GreySage

@SirCinnamon "Communist Swampman: Now with FingerZap(tm). It distributes death with equality!"

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri America had some paranoia problems at the time. Ever read The Crucible?

@GreySage I'm surprised he wasnt wielding a literal hammer and sickle

kviiri

It was of course not a matter of USSR being particularly kind and understanding. The Soviet stance just was that fascism was the true enemy of socialism and destroying fascism was the Soviet Union's greatest victory - one that would've lost its glamour had they invented a new foe of similar proportions.

@SirCinnamon Nope, what's it about?

GreySage

19:14

@SirCinnamon They're strapped to his back, crossed of course.

SPavel

@kviiri We used to say that while American fiction featured Good vs Evil, Soviet fiction featured Good vs Better Good because no member of the socialist system could be Evil.

Just misguided, short-sighted, distracted, etc

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri Literally its about witch hunts in Salem and how people get whipped into a frenzy on very little evidence. Figuratively its about mcarthyism and the attitude of america towards communism

kviiri

@SPavel That sounds similar to what I've heard from my (other) Russian friends, yep.

SPavel

Although I remember a surprisingly hardcore book about a young pioneers' fencing club, where a child is almost impaled on rebar when a bureaucrat pushes him, and a bunch of other kids get beaten up by hooligans (and then get kicked out of the fencing club for not fighting back hard enough)

Yuuki

@kviiri Wasn't it also appealing towards the population's general hatred of Nazi Germany because of the massive casualties inflicted during WWII?

kviiri

19:19

@Yuuki Definitely

goodguy5

anyone remember the name of the system with monsters in world war 2?

World War Weird, maybe?

Yuuki

@goodguy5 ... WWII?

kviiri

@goodguy5 Like, apart from nahtzeeees!?

goodguy5

heh. like werewolves and zombies and stuff

SPavel

Might be in the examples list of the Stupid Jetpack Hitler TVTropes article

goodguy5

19:20

I think I found it:
https://www.peginc.com/store/weird-war-ii/

Sir Cinnamon

Sounds fun but I would literally just play as Indiana Jones and my fellow players would hate me for it

SPavel

@Yuuki Soviet historiography of WWII conveniently starts only when Hitler invades, skipping over the invasions of Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia

Yuuki

@SPavel If I was Russia, I'd do my level best to prevent anyone from finding out about the Winter War.

SPavel

Because of the way that Leninist/Stalinist thought works, while the government of Capitalist nations was demonized, the people were considered a kindred proletariat

kviiri

Setting-wise, WWII is in that sweet spot where are kinds of rather high-tech tomfoolery were combined with old-school aesthetics and science was advancing so fast that all sorts of quackery got through too.

SPavel

19:23

It would not make sense to say "and then we went over and murdered a bunch of peasants and workers that the bourgeoisie convinced to fight for them"

Sir Cinnamon

@SPavel That makes a lot of sense actually

SPavel

Nazis were considered brainwashed to a man

Because the USSR wasn't at war with Japan except for a little bit in the end, the Japanese don't show up a lot

kviiri

@SPavel Finnish historiography says Finland won the Winter and Continuation wars. ("defensive victories", they called them at school)

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri It has that Atomic Age charm, kind of like fallout. Huge tesla coils and lightning arcing across wires, lightbulbs and big red buttons

SPavel

China shows up way more because Khrushchev was mad at Mao

@kviiri Ah yes, the kind of defensive victory where you lose most of your industrialized regions and political independence

Although the outcome was better than "Stalin drives tanks into Helsinki and shoots everybody, and Russia adds another few million km of frozen wasteland"

kviiri

19:26

@SPavel Nah, Finland kept the best bits. The valuable mines and Arctic sea port of Petsamo were a bit of a bummer, though.

SPavel

Or "Hitler subjugates you economically" like what happened with Germany's other wartime allies

kviiri

Most of the angst over the territorial losses is about the personal suffering of people evicted from South Karelia near Leningrad, but tbf that happened to pretty much everyone during the WWII.

SPavel

Of the minor Axis powers, Finland and Siam made it out the best by far

Pretty much everyone else got Communisted

kviiri

Hardships build character!

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose thanks for that answer :)

SPavel

19:28

You already have enough character

NautArch

about to likely become relevant

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch No problem! Some of my first answers on here I think were related to speed. And I always steal the quotes from those every time another one comes up lol.

kviiri

@SPavel USSR had a special loathing for the Social Democratic Party of Finland because they were making the lives of the proletariat so bearable they feared there wouldn't be a revolution :)

Yuuki

@SPavel You could always use your extra to roll up another sheet.

GreySage

@kviiri Curse them and their only-mild exploitative ways!

Rubiksmoose

19:29

(including a monstrous one on boots of speed)

@NautArch Pegascuba?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Sorcerer may cast breathe water, let my pegasus get that and then he'll swim at 45.

not too shabby.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch heck yeah!

SPavel

@kviiri Well it is only because Finland has the USSR protecting it from capitalist aggression, so they can use their productivity on food instead of rockets, duh

Yuuki

@SPavel Oh man, does this mean the US is going to invade South Korea?

Or Japan?

SPavel

@Yuuki The US already invaded South Korea and Japan, with their Coca Cola and KFC :P

kviiri

19:33

There's this 1970's communist anthem (I wouldn't doubt it being foreign in origin) called the Ikiliikkuja ("Perpetual motion engine") that basically describes the capitalist society as a three-parted perpetual motion engine capable of moving for millenia: a worker to drive the machines, a farmer to supply the bread... and a reformer to pacify them.

goodguy5

oh, and I think I thought of a solution I like for that player agency issue from last week.

Rather than get fiat-chained (restrained) to a post. The chain comes out of the infernal obelisk, wrapping around the player's torso. Every round, the length of chain shortens by 1 foot (or whatever). After 15 rounds (the time where player on the post would come into play), the chain has shortened enough that the character is hoisted up onto the sacrificial pedestal.

kviiri

I think hardliners were in the mode back then among some circles. Most people were of course quite happy with the wealth and welfare of "market socialism".

No, not "market socialism" but... well, you know, capitalist society with relatively high taxes and lots of social spending.

SPavel

The history of the Soviet state is actually pretty sad - the Petrograd Soviet leveraged power precisely because they supported the workers' and peasants' soviets.

Then Stalin crushed them all.

Before Stalin, there were actually multiple socialist parties

Trotsky would not have been any better, he believed that War Communism (essentially - plundering from your own population to feed the army) was a desirable economic system

kviiri

I wonder how attempts at permanent revolution would've went.

SPavel

@kviiri One of two ways: either the next revolution would come from the Party's ranks, or Western powers would throw Poland under the bus and let Hitler invade the USSR

NautArch

19:47

how is this not a dupe

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I had the same question lol. The one reason I didn't dupe-hammer it was because of the metagaming issue. That is the only distinguishing factor, but I'm not sure it is enough. But I left it open for the community to decide.

Sometimes I miss being able to just cast a dupe vote.

goodguy5

hrm...

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose same, but it sure seems like a dupe. metagaming doesn't have an impact to it.

multiple attempts is the question

why isn't what's important

goodguy5

The most generous description to each is:
"As a DM, what do I do about repeatable checks?"
vs
"As a DM, how do I discourage players repeating checks because they know that another player rolled poorly"

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 oh yeah the other distinction is that technically the current question could involve consequences.

goodguy5

19:52

But they can both be boiled down to:
"How do I avoid the problem of players (the same or other) repeating the same check due to low rolls?"

Rubiksmoose

I havne't had a lot of time to ponder it though.

One thing that is giving me pause is that the answers, upon brief hurried reading do seem to be much more relavent to this question than the ones here rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49239/…

kviiri

That seems like a problem so obvious, I wonder why PHB doesn't address it.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri Ah the familiar chorus of a 5e DM/player

kviiri

Yeah, I don't really wonder.

:D

I'm pretty sure the answer is that there's already a legion of players who have resolved it their own way and don't want their toes trodden on.

Mike Q

There's a difference, and not just in the "why". The older one is asking "Are there any limitations when other players attempt to roll a failed check", which is an answerable yes-or-no by checking the rules. The newer one is asking for strategies/methods/actions that the DM can use.

Rubiksmoose

19:58

@MikeQ This is the one it would ultimately be duped into though: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49239/…

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose Oh. I see. And the top answer fits the new question perfectly.

Nevermind then. New one is a dupe.

Yuuki

Somewhat late joke to relevant topic:

> We should've known communism would fail.
> There were plenty of red flags.

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ I've been convinced. It has been duped.

SPavel

@Yuuki haaaa

Yuuki

Although now I wonder if the term "red flag" has roots in US antagonism towards communism.

Rubiksmoose

20:03

If someone can scrounge up an excuse why it should be reopened they can of course do so lol

@Yuuki XD

SPavel

I haven't heard that one before but I do know one vexillology joke

Yuuki

> The earliest citation for "red flag" in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1602 and shows that at that time the flag was used by military forces to indicate that they were preparing for battle.

Hmm, maybe not.

SPavel

What are some good things about Switzerland? Well, their flag is a big plus.

There is another joke about Russia looking for a new flag sponsor after its contract with Colgate expires

but I don't think Colgate has that white/blue/red pattern anymore

Yuuki

The only thing I know about vexillology is that I should hate Mexico's flag.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Those are truly vexing

KorvinStarmast

20:49

@kviiri This book may answer your question

nitsua60

@GreySage Sort of... I both played in and ran (rotation of GMs) one where we jumped around in time a decent amount. Not always even the same characters--one session featured a jump back a few generations to when our characters' forebears had originally faced and semi-defeated BBEG.

The Oracle

1

Q: Question closed as being already answered -- so what's the answer?

How much time does it take to take a move and immediate action when falling out of combat? I've read the linked-to thread three times now, and I still am not clear on the answer to my question. There are at least four distinct possibilities: The rules are clear - no, this cannot be done no ma...

discussion

KorvinStarmast

Aww, man, someone removed my comment on "how does seduction work" question that linked to Barry White's music. 8^(

I figured it's almost required reading/listening in preparation for such a scenario.

GreySage

21:06

@nitsua60 Did the jumps change the character's levels (when they stayed the same characters of course)?

nitsua60

@GreySage Yeah, sometimes. It'd be "hey, all, when Bob takes over next month we'll be L7. Have your character ready."

(Assuming we were at L<=5 at the time.)

IIRC there was a stretch that ran 1-3, then one at 4, then a jump to 7, then 13, then back to 5, back to 13, down to 8 or 9, back up to 13/14....

This was back when 5e started up and some of us wanted to take it for a spin.

GreySage

@nitsua60 Out of curiosity (I don't intend to do it, but still) how did you handle jumping DOWN levels?

nitsua60

We all had copies of our characters at all the intervening levels. Narratively it was "hey, remember that time we took out the artifact that, it turns out, was holding back the undead horde? No? Me niether! Let's play it out!"

BESW

21:31

@SirCinnamon The anti-Communist storylines for Captain America made the character so paranoid and unpalatable that they were later explained as the actions of a crazy imposter and the "frozen in ice" story was invented to explain where the real Steve Rogers had been during that time.

Sir Cinnamon

@BESW Good, I like to imagine cap would stand above the witch hunting

Yuuki

@BESW those life model decoys, man

nitsua60

@SirCinnamon Which witch?

Sir Cinnamon

@nitsua60 The invisible specter of communism

nitsua60

SPECTRE?

Yuuki

21:35

Invisible?

nitsua60

Of?

(Okay, I've clearly run dry. Night, all.)

BESW

Cap's stories dried up in 1949 because they couldn't find a way to make him relevant after WWII. They tried again with the "Commie smasher" angle in 1953-54, but quickly dropped the idea. When they wrote new Cap stories in 1964, they invented "frozen in ice" gimmick as a way to ignore the 50s stories completely.

But Marvel can't leave a bad story alone, so in 1972 Cap got a whole story arc revealing that the 50s version of Captain America had been a fanboy recruited by the government to replace the missing Steve Rogers--but the flawed supersoldier serum drove him psychotic and he had to be forcibly retired.

Hydra keeps digging the guy out of suspended animation and brainwashing him again, and the poor guy's tried to commit suicide at least once. They should've just left him non-canon.

The Oracle

22:06

0

Q: Will this work for the main site: "How Do I Get Players to Post More?"

Please let me know if this question fits or if it can/should be adjusted to fit within the main site and how. Its kind of long but thats because our play system has aspects I feel I need to explain so people understand the full picture but I understand if that might be a bit much. Thank you for y...

support on-topic

BESW

22:22

Thread:

Recently I learned of something called "The Tiffany Problem". Tiffany was a perfectly normal name in medieval England, it's short for Theophania. Yet if you wrote a medieval character called Tiffany, people would call total BS on it.

Tweeted by stavvers on February 13, 2018 at 1:05 PM

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