Disclaimer: it's not quite through, but it's more than impressive

So, I want to come up with an interesting situation to introduce my characters to each other. I like the idea of doing perhaps multiple introductions (e.g. in a part of 4, maybe have 2 players meet, then the other 2, then the 2 groups). A bar fight or a "common destination" is good, easy... but it leaves the assumption that the PCs will just stick together.

One story I heard (while not particularly bonding, though still highly entertaining), a black dragonborn, sitting in the middle of the road, bound, surrounded by multiple bodies in a circle around him (all armed guards), near a crashed prison cart. The party arrived at the scene and his argument for his defense: "wasn't me". (roll persuasion - nat 20)

What purpose do you have in mind for doing the PC introductions this way?

Well for example, if I say that both wake up in a cell together, and they escape together, that sort of gives them a common goal, a reason to stick together through the escape, then creates a bond of the shared experience.

Whereas if they all meet in the pub, or in a caravan together, it requires a separate quest to build that.

But why only 2 of them?

@trogdor Because 3 and 1 leaves 1 out in the cold?

It creates a bit more of a tight-knit bond between characters, I feel

Fair enough

@nitsua60 not you though, you trouble maker

I mean, sure, if they all go dungeon diving together, to clear out a nearby goblin cave, sure, they helped each other avoid death, but that's not really a bonding experience

@trogdor =)

And it is a bit more focussed on each player

I'm a sucker for RP haha

@nitsua60 XD

@Ben if I did that I would probably do the same scenario with everyone, but I can see some merit in keeping it to smaller groups

Pirates of the Caribbean would be a perfect example.

Will and Jack meet in Prison, And Elizabeth and (Insert player 4 here) are kidnapped by the pirates.

Each pair bond over the common experience/shared goal, then the two parties meet and achieve a bigger goal together

My biggest concern with it is the party split at the start

Whyfore?

It sort of just chops up the "meet at the tavern" start and has it happen later

With some PC's knowing each other but not everyone knowing each other

That being said it's still way better than the tavern start

And I have to admit that everyone waking up in prison together feels like a tavern start again

So I concede that as well

It just sorted of mixes up the dynamic a bit

It does

creates an interesting start and, while yes, some player bonds are stronger than others (to begin with), I just see it as being better than "You going my way?"

That's all fair yeah

Why do PCs have to be strangers at the beginning of the game?

@BESW well they don't for sure

Not about RPG mechanics, but also about RPG mechanics:

> Models have no truth value. Some models are useful. (source)

An introduction to a new band of characters isn't just about introducing the characters to each other, but the characters to the players as well. An "Introduction sequence" allows players to learn about how other characters react, and even sometimes how their own characters react to situations and other people. It forces that dynamic to be created.

@BESW This reminds me of how I teach math. So often a student asks me if something's "correct" and my answer is along the lines of "well, that's a true statement, but we've yet to see if it's useful."

@Ben I'm just sayin', there's a LOT of ways to do that.

Masters of Umdaar puts it into character creation.

Yeah :)

In my own experience as a player, I do rely heavily on RP to develop a character. Figuring out how they react to certain things, etc.

Several games have the group establish the world's major characters as part of worldbuilding, and then pick which of them each player will run.

And, well, I have had great success with "going my way?"

One of my biggest and best 3.5 campaigns started with my telling each player that their PC needed a reason to want to get a ship across the ocean ASAP. They were all strangers pooling their money to get tickets.

The first session was picking a ship. (Cheap, expensive, legal, illegal, which political faction, etc.)

Was I in this one?

Some of that sounds familiar ish and some doesn't

Nope, this was the epic New World campaign with bubureau and orc were-crocodiles and a pirate king and quivers of jokes, etc.

Ahhhh ok

I borrowed some of the concept for our UOG game, with going across the sea to the Isle of the Scale, but it wasn't the opening session.

Might've been better it had been.

I just do remember us getting on a boat to go there yeah

@BESW maybe

@Ben So, here's what you need: an immediate problem that all the PCs need to get solved but are unable to solve on their own.

That's what the black dragon is trying to be.

It's what the tavern questgiver is not.

You can even start in medias res and use roleplay to backfill how you get into the situation!

Yes. This is what I'm going for. I suppose what I meant by "going my way?" was more the simple "all in a caravan together to find a new city - more to come later"

I prefer to ask players to make sure their characters have a shared motive or goal. All members of the same organization or guild, all invested in the safety of the town, all being blackmailed by the same corrupt mayor, whatever.

However, using the "going my way" approach as a reason for people to meet, is different. Rather than just deciding to talk for the first time cos you've all been sitting on the same carriage for 3 days

It worked for Chaucer. [grin]

Seriously though "It's dangerous to go alone" is a legit reason to band together in real life... but D&D characters tend to be less convinced of their own mortality.

Hello folks!

It's even worse in World of Darkness games, where often the only reason all the vampires or mages or whatever aren't dealing with their own drama independently is that the GM a terrifyingly powerful authority figure has told them to stick together.

[wave]

@BESW this is how you play jeff right? :P

i love that Knight's Tale "bard"!

@RafaelSantos I think the whole dynamic they have is hilarious.

it is an awesome movie and i like that the plot is not saving the [world, princess, whatever]...

i f- hate when they edit your questions without talking with you first...

specially when is something that does not really change the comprehension of the question... it looks like just an "aesthetics" thing!

Here's the relevant page in the Help section.

@RafaelSantos Do you have a specific example in mind?

@nitsua60 In this case, it's a solid clarity edit that cleans up misspellings, tidies up pronouns and conjugation, and removes a distracting amount of emphasis punctuation.

Makes the titular not-a-sentence into a sentence, too.

If there's a problem with an edit, like confusing regional spelling for misspelling or substantively changing the meaning of the post, bring it up on Role-playing Games Meta for review.

But our contributions to the site are not strictly "ours" once we make them, and "if you are not comfortable with the idea of your contributions being collaboratively edited by other trusted users, this may not be the site for you." That includes grammar, spelling, and clarity edits like SSD's.

[sheepishly] I do that...

I t's not because I feel like the question is badly written or anything, I just go for readability.

Readability is important!

I mean, I will occasionally do spelling errors and grammar fixes, but only if the question is riddled with them

I've seen questions and answers both, which contained good content but were obscured by style choices to the point that voters and commenters thought the point was the polar opposite of what was intended.

And questions which languish in obscurity because they're confusing or a chore to read, and after a clarity edit the question gets excellent responses.

I feel that way too. I mean, by following the rules, a paragraph is 4 sentences about the same topic. But sometimes that can basically just create a block of text. Following that can be hard sometimes. That, and what @BESW said. Phrasing and everything, sometimes using too many analogies can blur the meaning

@BESW I think SSD helped my very first answer a lot just by tidying it up a bit

Rules are more like guidelines, but guidelines exist for a reason and breaking from expected structures is going to challenge the reader: it's important to challenge the reader on purpose rather than by accident, and to have a reason to do so other than for the sake of the challenge.

I usually focus a lot on saying all the things that come to mind

A lot of the time I miss all the extra tidy work I could be doing

Voyage out, voyage back.

So I kinda love it when my posts get edited

@Trogdor if anything , it means that someone is paying attention to what you're (at least trying) to say

Yes

We've got some amazing copy editors here, who can dig intention out of the most opaque material.

Lol

Oooo this is so good to hear:::

Big enemies is certainly a theme of Tome of Foes. A lot of the creatures in Volo’s Guide were aimed at levels 1-10. Here the team, led by Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls, wanted at least half of the monsters to be challenge rating 10 or higher, with a number of them being challenge rating 20 or higher.

Re: Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes D&D 5e

“A lot of these monsters are very powerful, while the ones that are challenge rating 20 or higher are almost Godzilla-type monsters. When they show up, it’s world changing,” says Mearls. “Part of that plays into the character of Mordenkainen, where those are the kind of threats he would want to study and understand, because he would be concerned about these threats to the balance. That was good for us because we know players want that kind of material but it also fitted his profile.”

“Multiple styles are explored through these creatures,” adds Petrisor. “From gothic fantasy to—my favorite—cosmic horror! I think players will be inspired by all the stories they can weave with these monsters.”

“ Tome of Foes doesn’t take players through settings per say, although it does give them material and insight to multiple planes, including the Shadowfell, the Nine Hells and a certain extraplanar city,” says Petrisor.

I'm deeply skeptical of D&D's attempts to actually do cosmic horror, rather than pulp Mythos.

Sorry for the spam. I'm really excited to see inter planner being tackled along with higher level enemies

Pulp Mythos?

Has 5e given indication yet about whether it's reverted to the Cosmic Wheel?

@Acts7Seven Cosmic horror --or, more accurately, cosmic fear-- is a very specific kind of horror theme rooted in the existential dread that one is a caring being in an uncaring universe.

The "Mythos" is a term used to describe the presumed conglomerate setting of Lovecraft's cosmic horror writing, codified by authors like August Derleth after him.

"Pulp" is a term for cheaply published books, and became synonymous with low-brow, high-concept, high-adrenaline thrills in which there's a hero who always kills the bad guy and gets the girl.

Pulp Mythos is a kind of story that evolved out of the meeting of the two genres, in which the main character is more likely to meet unspeakable terrors from beyond time and space with a shotgun than with philosophical angst.

@BESW so the bad guy is the pulp? :P

"Pulp" is the material used to make the cheap paper it's printed on.

Aw dang it

It became a synecdoche for the kind of stories people expected to find printed on that paper.

Indiana Jones is a deliberate homage to pulp adventure.

@Miniman that's the one I was looking for!

(I ended up finding two other strongly-related ones, including one which by title was a dupe but which actually was asking something different.)

@BESW I haven't seen it confirmed but it is on the cover.

@Acts7Seven [sigh] Disappointing but not surprising.

What were you hoping for?...

4e's cosmos was so much cooler, and so much better suited for adventuring.

Didn't get to play it. What was it like / how different?

They did release 3 characters. 3 reimagined / returned char.

Yeah 4e was great

Marut looks like Reinhardt of Overwatch fame.

Or rather Marut inspired reinhardt

And the Astral Dreadnaught wow 50 feet tall 25 wude

The Points of Light setting is so great. The Mortal World is specially designed for D&D-style adventuring: vast swathes of monster-infested wilderness growing over the ruins of ancient civilizations, with occasional towns and cities as "points of light" in the darkness.

@BESW They kept a lot of that - the Elemental Chaos, the Feywild, the Shadowfell.

They ditched having all of the Outer Planes as parts of the Astral Sea, though.

Bah.

@BESW Bah to anything in particular?

D&D fifth edition (2014) largely returned to the older Great Wheel cosmology, but the Inner Planes retain aspects of the World Axis. The four elemental planes are back, but they remain tightly integrated with the material plane as its creative foundation.

The paraelemental planes have also returned for the first time since Planescape, but they have more evocative names. The Plane of Ash is known as the Great Conflagration, the Plane of Ice is the Frostfell, the Plane of Magma is the Fountains of Creation, and the Plane of Ooze is the Swamp of Oblivion. Additionally, the Elemental Chaos is the churning realm within which the Inner Planes are held.

@Miniman baaaaaahhh

XD

I think the Astral Sea was genius. Forcing all the gods and Orders to share a common space, but giving them all their own dorm rooms, makes for great flavor. Letting the gith float between them instead of off in the ethereal plane ties it together nicely. And of course, the brilliant thing about both the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea was that they gave awesome opportunities for GMs to shove in whatever innovative thing the campaign needed.

The Wheel's procedural nature is great for cranking out splatbooks, but not so great for giving the GM space to customize reality in directions other than the established orderly procession from one primary color to the next.

Paraelemental planes between homogenous planes are more restrictive than paraelemental pockets within a heterogenous chaos.

@BESW I liked that we visited the Feywild and the Shadofell in the same arc because of how they were ostenibly connected in 4e

Aye, that was fun.

The conflict between the Primordials and the Gods was great, and tied to the setting really tightly so that it informed a lot of what else went on, and gave a lot of interesting opportunities for stories beyond "these guys are good, those guys are evil."

Leaving the Far Realm unexplained and unexplored was brilliant.

Ditto not trying to explain the echoes of the Mortal World too much.

And overall 4e's policy of contradicting its own lore in small ways all the time, to give it a sense of received history rather than absolute knowledge so the GM and players could massage it however they liked, was a masterstroke and masterfully executed.

I liked how the gods pretty much saw The material plane as Legos and the primordials saw it a playdough

And that was more or less the whole basis of conflict XD

The Cosmic Wheel... is more supportive of a didactic approach to lore material.

@trogdor Very simple, very understandable, very big-picture as suits such beings, and easy to understand how "just talk it out" probably wouldn't work so the conflict feels unforced.

"you're smasing my Legos'!" " You're drying up my Playdough!"

"Arrrrrghhh!!!?!!?"

And then demons and devils make a lot more sense emerging from that conflict.

They don't feel like needless duplication of a villain anymore.

@BESW when you say "echoes," is that the 'fell and the fey?

Aye.

@BESW I forgot where they fit in that part

@BESW demons and devils also don't feel like needless duplication if you go all the way back to 0e concept of Law-Chaos in an Alignment War.

@trogdor Demons were created when a shard of pure evil fell into the Elemental Chaos and formed a bottomless pit of evil called the Abyss. Demons are elemental embodiments of evil.

They're like little mini-Primordials who enjoy the suffering that chaos causes to mortals rather than being indifferent to it.

Devils are angels (the neutral servitors of all gods both good and evil) who rebelled against their god, killed him, and took over his Astral domain.

As punishment the other gods locked all those angels up inside that domain, and they can only come out if summoned by a mortal.

Hence wanting revenge on the gods and needing to manipulate mortals to achieve their agendas.

@nitsua60 LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

@BESW I SAID alignment-as-war

=D

Hehehe

@BESW ah ok, and that also explians why they don't necessarily get along or act on their agendas the same way

I also really liked that they said "Elves shouldn't be Tolkien and Child at the same time," and made eladrin.

Eladrin are the ur-elf of the Feywild. Drow and elves are Mortal World refugees of the war between the eladrin gods.

I am really getting good at explaining D&D mechanics to new players

I'm explaining each part of character creation, by separation. Yes, there are some parts that make it seem more complicated, purely by volume, because there's [this part] and the [this part] and then [this part], but they do understand how each individual part works, it's just a matter of putting the pieces together, rather than getting confused when the bigger picture needs to be broken down yet again

The one thing I am doing is elimination - Do you want to be melee, or magic. or both? That choice immediately removes 2/3 of the character classes, and, depending on their choice, can remove half of the in-game mechanics they don't need to focus on (i.e. melee combat vs magic use)

Hmm. That reminds me, I want to do something with the four Ki Khanga modes of agency, which I'm calling Disciplines and re-naming to Soul, Mind, Body, and Heart.

Actually, in one section of the book there's a fifth Discipline: Soul, Mind, Body, Heart, and Tech.

Did you find out if your book was a misprint? Or if their first edition was just terrible?

hey there @WheatWizard

Hello!

there is no way to manually move comments to a chat without reaching the threshold length is there? (without being a mod?)

@Rubiksmoose I'm not sure, but nitsua was here a few minutes ago

also, welcome, @WheatWizard

Hello!

Sorry about accepting your answer. I come from a culture where accepting is not the norm so I wasn't really sure when to do it.

Come to think of it, I believe one of the flags for comments will get mod attention as well

I'll probably accept it in a little while. But you guys are the experts

@WheatWizard Oh, me? Not a problem.

@JoelHarmon generally all flags go to the mods I think.

but yeah.

Out of curiosity, which stack is that from, @WheatWizard?

programming puzzles and code golf

I just flagged. No need to bug the mods. It isn't urgent.

@WheatWizard I'm mostly familiar with that one in a drive-by fashion. Now that you mention it, I don't usually see an accepted answer over there.

On the other hand, you can get a good answer for any of the literally thousands of programming languages, which makes it harder to pick one right answer.

Yeah, since there can never be a single definitive answer I just never accept any.

@WheatWizard As I hope my comment made clear, we can usually get something of a definitive answer on this stack. It often just takes a day or two to accumulate responses to choose from.

I did get a new answer which I think is interesting. So thank you (and of course Glazius for answering)

You're welcome!

@JoelHarmon well also, the way it was explained to me was, if the answer worked for the original poster of the question they should accept it

And up votes take everything else

So we don't need definitive answers as long as we have answers that work

Not to try to say anything for other stacks mind you

@trogdor I agree with the idea that the querents should accept the answers that work for them, regardless of other upvotes.

I do think it should work that way yeah

However, I think the usual advice is to wait for a day or two after asking a question to accept an answer, as it tends to invite a broader range of answers.

But again, I won't try to hound stack overflow, just for example, to do it that way too

If only.

@JoelHarmon yes this too

In case you're missing context, I left the following message on WW's question: " While I appreciate your enthusiasm, accepted answers tend to discourage new or alternate answers. For that reason, we recommend you don't accept one for at least a day (which lets users around the world see it). I recommend you unaccept this answer now and come back in a day or three to accept the one that you find most helpful at that time."

Ah ok

Fair enough

With that, I think we're in agreement. Which is good timing, because I need to head out.

Later!

See ya

Also, I don't we started outside of agreement

XD

Errr I don't *think we started out of agreement

@Miniman if I ever use the Storm Herald path, I think I might actually draw from both versions. Mostly from the UA draft, for save DCs etc, but there were some parts of the revision that made better sense too

@Ben I can see that, for sure.

In the meantime, say hello to Kulkhus Athak the Barbarian Storm Herald-to-be

@Ben Still unsure.

I do think I figured out how to deal damage, though.

Progress is still progress :)

It doesn't say how to, but you can match words and phrases between chapters and find a pattern that seems to imply as reasonable a damage mechanic as can be expected in a system where the difficulty can be randomly increased by as much again as the range the GM has control over.

Right. Well, let's hope that (if you do contact the publishers) they do see the same problems

@doppelgreener I think Stellata needs a goth phase:

@BESW Still only counts as one!

@Ben The Elephant Who Just Remembered It Left The Stove On.

The Elephant That Really Really Hates His Job

The Elephant Whose Grandfather Was A Dachshund.

The Elephant That Inspired The Invention Of The Hoover

@BESW XD

@BESW And His GrandMother Was A Mouse

@Ben Yes, exactly.

Hahahaha

@BESW Sounds like Pugmire

Ironclaw, but similar.

Pugmire XD wow

... and I have now educated myself on the basics of Ironclaw (or, read the Wikipedia article, at least)

@Adeptus ha

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: How to determine stats of the rulers of the Nine Hells? by Helen on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)

@SmokeDetector hello smokey, good boy, or girl, or genderless robot

@BESW yes. Yes, perfect. Let's do this.

@doppelgreener I think I have like, a good "Dr Light Response"tm

which boils down to "pretend unconvincingly that he hates it"

...and not-so-secretly take notes for his next journal article.

lol

XD

I am not sure I want him to blithely continue to be an absolutely horrible father?

maybe ratchet it down to trying really hard and just being pretty bad?

XD

Yes that sounds fabulous

I mean, I am perfectly fine with how terribly he has been as a dad, but I would not be fine with it if he was incapable of recognizing it and at least trying to improve by this point

@trogdor Did you finish Fandom for Robots?

@BESW oh no I didn't

I was at work and had finised like,.. a third of it?

which was probably too much to read at work

but thank you verrrrry much for reminding me

I am in the midst this moment of finding where I left off

Everyone else should read Vina Jie-Min Prasad's Fandom for Robots, too.

no, only for me

HSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHSSSSSSSS

XD

It's what Asimov might have written if he'd had a fondness of fanfic communities. And empathy.

lol

to be fair, I have almost no direct contact with Asimov writing

maybe none even

I might still have some paperbacks in the give-away pile if you feel like inflicting that on yourself.

The early Robot stuff, anyway. I wouldn't inflict the later Foundation series on anybody.

uh nah

I have had several chances to borrow Asimov books

he sounds like he was trying in his own way, but he just didn't write the kind of stuff I would want to read now?

like, 15 or so years ago I was not picky about what I read

but now I kinda don't want to drag myself through Authors who either don't realize or don't care they are doing certain uncomfortable things

uncomfortable things are great in books mind you, but not so much for me when the Author either doesn't even know or doesn't care about it

and it sounds from descriptions kinda like Asimov had one or the other of those problems

I really liked Asimov in my teens, but I think I couldn't force myself to really enjoy his writing anymore.

I think I'd still like Nightfall. Maybe.

The I, Robot short stories were interesting logic puzzles marred mostly by how the deliberately consciousless robots were more engaging characters than any of the humans.

And the main character was a Heartless Career Woman Who Secretly Wishes She Could Have a Family Too.

@BESW I seem to recall you said he started doing that a loooooooot

You know how Moffat only has two or three female characters? Asimov didn't have more.

mmm

Nightfall was... decent as a short story, interminable and thin as a novel.

Asimov was really best with his short stories exploring a scifi concept, because they didn't so much require an engaging character to keep the reader sticking around.

I should re-read Cat's Cradle

Elijah Bailey was probably the most interesting non-robot character Asimov came up with, and he was a bad parody of a noir cliché.

While I genuinely liked Asimov back in the day, I think his main benefit for me was being split between the YA scifi shelf and the adult scifi shelf at the library, taking me from the former to the latter.

(Daneel Olivaw, obviously, is his best character.)

...wait, no, I take it back. Giskard Reventlov is.

I sort of liked the subversion of the galactic empire not being a total tyrannical dictatorship like the name would suggest to a genre-savvy reader.

Then again, being much more genre-savvy now, I think it's hardly unique to have non-evil empires anymore.

Heh. I remember a review complaining that Ancillary Justice, of all things, was flawed because it was falling back on the evil empire cliché.

And I'm sitting here going "Have you ever read a more sympathetic portrayal of the assimilated assimilator in any scifi ever? A more biting condemnation of cultural colonization? If you think the Radch is cliché, you think nobody should write a story about an expansionist government, ever again."

lol

I do think there was plenty of criticism woven into that series

every time someone brought up the one word,.. was it Annex?

Annexation?

Yeah.

I personally think that was handled close to perfectly

because the word was made very explicitly synonymous with excessive slaughter and Ancilification of local populations

finished

there was less of it left than I originally thought

It's such a nice little story.

it is

I liked it

So many short stories are really good but super depressing.

yeah,.... I don't like those very much

Like Carnival Nine, which hit waay too close to home for me.

It's amazing, but... yeah. Feels.

if I am going to have a story with depressing elements, I prefer them to be spread out with some nicer stuff in-between

I don't,... read stuff to get purely depressing stories

and unfortunately that is what the shorter ones with large depressing themes feel like

@trogdor Agreed, and I also think it packs more punch that way.

I think that is part of why I don't like those very much in fact

it hits too hard

and that isn't what I read for

I have two main reasons that I read things

the first is to entertain myself and escape from reality, the second is like, hardcore history research that I don't think most people enjoy as much as I do XD

Well, sad stuff can also be entertaining in a different way, but different tastes I guess :)

well,.... yes and no

in shows it isn't as bad

it's hard for me to explain without feeling like I am bragging about my reading retention, but I have a hard won habit of retaining and repeatedly analyzing what I have read that I don't do nearly as much to TV shows and such

Ah, I see.

and whats more is that I got into reading in the first place as escapism

so my largest portion of enjoyment from it comes from things that don't mix well with depressing subjects/themes/ect.

and I don't want to make assumptions about most other people, but I kinda do think most people don't,... have that same dichotomy between reading and TV shows/movies

maybe part of it is my experience in high school where I was almost the only kid reading for fun, or even reading the assigned material as study

I sometimes feel cheered up by sadness, worries and fears projected into writing.

(or music, TV or such)

I think for me,... it's easier to process the catharsis after sad things in Visual Auditory medium?

not really entirely sure what it is

It makes me feel less hopeless to listen to an album or read to a book from the 1970's or so, notice that they worried about lots of the same things as I do, and things didn't go so bad after all.

Just ran across this: