TRPG General Chat

trogdor

00:19

hehehehee

Shalvenay

01:12

@Magician, @BESW: your remarks re: phrasal games make me wonder something: is there anything about phrasal game structures that forces them to treat narrative elements as fixed-points, vs treating world-metaphysics or game-balance as fixed-points instead?

BESW

Not inherent in the phrasal element, no.

But many of them implement it to do so, like Fate's fate point economy or Lady Blackbird's keys.

Shalvenay

yeah, which is part of why I was wondering

because phrasal structures seem wonderful at compressing large option-spaces into small rulesets

but I do wonder how to apply them when you are using say, world-metaphysics elements as fixed points

BESW

There's an established culture of treating complex exception-based rule systems as "like physics," and treating phrasal systems as "like stories," so those are the sorts of games you wind up with in each.

I'm not sure what you mean by world metaphysics.

Shalvenay

@BESW the rules the world runs by, if you will

BESW

...why isn't that just the world's physics?

Given what I know about your interests and goals, it seems odd to be jumping back to a term of art in natural philosophy and religion for the purpose.

Shalvenay

01:20

@BESW ...I might have latched onto that word a bit. you could call it the world's physics, in an abstract sense. part of it is that I want to avoid confusion with what we consider the domain of physics in the modern world

BESW

I mean, I'm not a big fan of Hume's fork, but it seems casually useful here: I think you're talking about games that use phrases to describe Matters of Idea, and asking if they can be used instead to describe Matters of Fact.

And historically the term "metaphysics" has always come down on the Matters of Idea side of the table: The fate point economy is already a mechanic to control and describe a metaphysical concept, that being the notion that crisis and victory are connected in an inextricable cycle in which each one causes the other in turn.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah. I know I got into the Matters of Fact thing when I was trying to write aspects the one time I took a stab at GMing Fate

BESW

Your co-option of the phrase may be a useful demonstration of the underlying problem of games run on Matters of Fact, though.

There are entire professions dedicated to arguing over the nature of Fact: what does, indeed, make the world work? At every level from abstract physics to social "laws" to practical application of hydrodynamics, there's not actually complete agreement about how the world works, much less why.

As we know, when we sit down to play a game, whether it's set in the real world or a fictional one, the group has to have some shared understanding of how that game world works.

Some games, like D&D, say "it works the way the rules say it does, and if that ever causes too much metaphor shear then it's the GM's job to figure out what to do about it."

Games like Fate say "The fictional world operates according to broad principles of story and theme, some set by the system and some agreed on by the players."

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, science is eventually-consistent, not transactional

BESW

The former is a Matter of Fact game (the rules are the facts). The latter is a Matter of Idea game (the principles are the ideas).

Shalvenay

01:31

I suppose you can run a simulationist game in Matters of Idea space, though, no? (even though simulationism is commonly correlated with games that operate on Matters of Fact)

BESW

A game that tries to operate in a Matter of Fact style but allows all the players to write descriptive phrases that emerge from and also inform that Fact... is going to live or die on the players' shared agreement or disagreement of those Facts.

Shalvenay

...in such a game, the way I see it is that you'd start from some base "how the world operates" principles that live in the physical/simulationist space (not narrative-space), and build upwards from there

BESW

This is why RAW/RAI is an ongoing source of argument: the Facts of D&D are written down and available to all, but are not clear and consistent.

@Shalvenay Beware the simulationist simplification trap: simulationist games are games which operate on the rule of "Our game simulates another thing," but the other thing doesn't have to be the real world.

Shalvenay

@BESW I agree wholeheartedly there :) simulating unrealities can be interesting, too

BESW

(And, again, some people genuinely believe the real world contains scattering angels who gather the spiritual blessings of secret prayer and spread it across the world and causes the hearts of the righteous to throb wherever they may be.)

So, I think that you could easily hack a game of Fate to not be driven by its narrativist principles--rip out the fate point economy, modify or ignore the principles about bypassing rules if their results would be boring, that kind of thing.

But you wouldn't be guaranteed to wind up with a game of Fate that's instead driven by physical principles simulating how the real world works... because your group doesn't have a shared agreement on what those principles are.

You'll need to hack back into the system some explicit statements about the Matters of Idea that you're running the game on, because you can't do Matters of Fact for something as complex as a "real world simulation" in the kind of campaign you're likely to run (that would involve creating game rules to approximate physical laws, whoof).

Your Matters of Idea are going to be group-dependent. For example, you may need to explicitly state a principle of cause and effect. IE, no foreshadowing, but also no acting like something just didn't happen because it's inconvenient or boring or awkward.

Or you may have a group that just gets the principle of cause and effect and doesn't need it mechanized.

You're going to be making statements about how the world works. In the process you'll be making choices about what's important to the story, just because you can't make comprehensive statements about everything so whatever you do describe is therefore more important than what you don't.

BESW

03:33

Tonight's game has revealed more about the Doskvol porn industry than I think any of us expected. #BladesInTheDark

Tweeted by rdonoghue on February 10, 2018 at 2:32 AM

@rdonoghue That's how this game goes. I'm personally trying to get an underground grand prix-style goat racing ring going. Dogs are great, but it's really about goats in the streets.

Tweeted by ladyanaka on February 10, 2018 at 2:39 AM in reply to rdonoghue

Hey gamer friends, it's Feature Friday! I'm featuring a great tabletop creator every Friday. This week it's Emily Care Boss (@emilycare). Emily is not only a great game designer, but also a veteran rpg theorist who helped many other designers better understand their craft. 1/

Tweeted by john_harper on February 9, 2018 at 9:48 PM

Accidentally typed “Lady Mechbeth” and I need to see that play.

Tweeted by filamena on February 9, 2018 at 11:58 AM

@BESW New character concept!

The kind folks at Indie Press Revolution (@IPRTweets) have set up a shopping page with links to all the available games on my "recommended RPGs" list (scroll down for the links). http://www.indiepressrevolution.com/xcart/John-Harper-Likes/

Tweeted by john_harper on February 9, 2018 at 9:25 PM in reply to john_harper

KorvinStarmast

04:00

We must preserve this question, not only as an example of "how not to do this" but also for its raw humor value.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast hey there @KorvinStarmast, how're things going?

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay I am finding your erudition, and BESW's, an amusing diversion after I edited the faux erudition of that question. :)

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast heheheh :)

KorvinStarmast

There are people at our church who are in touch with the spirits, be they angels or otherwise. I listen to them, but rarely share in what they experience. It makes for some uncomfortable conversations.

BESW

@KorvinStarmast Yeah, in order to avoid disparaging anyone's beliefs, I chose an example that I myself share.

Shalvenay

04:06

things are alright out here. wondering what a civilian ship captain is supposed to do about a warship that's randomly opened fire on them, as in this little mishap the Russian Navy got into a bit over 110 years ago:

history.stackexchange.com/questions/43424/…

BESW

...although "angel" isn't really the best word, but English doesn't have a common term that'd be better suited.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Spirituality is intensely experiential as are many aspects of Faith. I have learned to be far more open to understanding of that life experience. My spiritual experiences are very rare, and for the most part unsettling.

BESW

Fair enough.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW There is a famous saying about "there are more things in this world than are found in your philosophy" ... I think it's Shakespeare. Memory foggy.

@Shalvenay Incidents on the high seas are often curious. Speaking of incidents, a few days ago a helicopter (AH-64/Apache) went down in Japan. I am finding out that it is very similar to what happened in Galveston area within the past two years. Rotor blade came off in flight. (Ouch, that's usually lethal, and was in this case).

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, main rotor blade departures in flight are bigtime no-fun

@KorvinStarmast I take it you haven't had time to read the reports I pointed you at earlier this week, btw?

KorvinStarmast

04:12

No I have not. I am about to have a houseful of people, so Momma has sorta been on me. And, work's been a mess.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast ah, figured as much. will the houseful be one-day-long or two-days-long btw?

KorvinStarmast

About two days, as things start tomorrow in the AM. I will be cooking a bit. I like to cook for my friends, so this should be cool.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast ah.

KorvinStarmast

And with that, I bid you both adieu. Happy Gaming. :)

BESW

Concept art for the early Mardi Gras.

BESW

06:54

Dear Mac OS X: why do you have a complete copy of my User directory files in a JVM?

I was wondering where all my hard drive space went.

doppelgreener

14:18

@BESW whaaaat

but... why

@BESW These look like terrible monsters for a terrible dungeon made by a terrible wizard. They know how terrible they are but they still gotta do dungeon monster stuff.

The terrible dungeon is probably above ground in a hedge maze, and there's not even anything stopping people from cutting through the hedges.

Shalvenay

20:29

hey there @trogdor

trogdor

hello

Shalvenay

how're things going?

trogdor

pretty good right now, how bout you?

nitsua60

quiet today...

Shalvenay

@trogdor alright here

@nitsua60 yeah, it is kinda awkward how things are busier on the weekdays than the weekends

trogdor

20:31

@Shalvenay cool

Shalvenay

kinda hoping Nits gets the last couple of players confirmed for ToA soon :)

trogdor

ha yeah I am excited for that

I don't know if I will like 5e but trying it is something I have wanted to do

and this group seems like the perfect one to do so with

Shalvenay

@trogdor aye, this should be a good chance, I've been chomping at the bit to get a chance to play with you for a while now

trogdor

:)

Shalvenay

also, mind if I ask what you plan to play, or if you haven't gotten that far yet?

trogdor

20:35

I kinda have not

what do we have already?

Shalvenay

@trogdor ah. not sure what other folks are doing, but I've pretty much got my mind set on a tabaxi nature priest who's from the general region, if you will

trogdor

or so far anyway

ah ok

Shalvenay

big fluffy cat-guy with a quarterstaff :)

trogdor

I think you mentioned it before, I just didn't know what it was for

Shalvenay

yeah

trogdor

20:39

I have no idea what classes and races 5e has, but something like a lizardfolk/dragonborn fighter or paladin would work for me

something along those lines at least

Shalvenay

@trogdor sounds like a plan to me :) D'born are one of the "stock" races, and one of the supplemental books adds Lizardfolk as well

trogdor

cool

are there different types of Lizardfolk or just a single standard one?

Shalvenay

@trogdor only a single one so far

trogdor

fair enough

I just know there was some 3.5 material that added a couple other Lizardfolk types. I figured there was a chance 5e had something similar

Shalvenay

hey there @KorvinStarmast, how goes the entertaining?

KorvinStarmast

20:49

@nitsua60 quiet today... yeah, too quiet! :)

@Shalvenay Hello, it is delayed since on group is late with their lunch with father in law, and the other is at her mom's house and stuff and another stayed in Port Lavaca since she's sick. (Junior High Teacher ...) and so I get to drink wine and wait.

Or dringk beer and wait.

Or drink Rye Whiskey and wait. :)

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast heheh, or maybe read those reports from earlier in the week while you wait? :)

KorvinStarmast

My liver Yeah, great idea. Shipwrek NTSB?

@Shalvenay Remind me of name of vessel?

ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/… has a lot of accidents

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast El Faro was the ship, American 383 was the flight IIRC

KorvinStarmast

OK, El Faro first, AA 383 seems a familiar topic to me ...

I read a very long thread on that topic at PPRuNe. Very interesting PoV's vrom various angles on that ...

383 looks in a few ways like that A380 incident near Indonesia a few years ago .... PT disc letting go.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah. the big difference between it and QF32 is kind of the nature of the problem -- QF32 was an engine lube issue, while AAL383 was a case where a materials defect decided to be a ninja :p

KorvinStarmast

21:00

@Shalvenay Yeah, and it happened on the ground, thank goodness. The NDI/NDT issues are of significant interest. You can't do anything about that which you do not detect.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast aye

KorvinStarmast

... right engine had accumulated 10,984 total cycles since new. The HPT stage 2 disk has a life limit of 15,000 cycles when installed on the CF6-80C2B6 engine. Thus,
at the time of the accident, the HPT stage 2 disk had 4,016 cycles of in-service life remaining

Premature failure based on finite life criteria can sometimes lead to expensive litigation ... :p

Shalvenay

speaking of naval things, maybe you'd have thoughts on another question I'd have @KorvinStarmast?

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay sure ... what's the question?

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast what are you supposed to do if you're a civilian ship captain and some warship starts shooting at you out of the blue? :o

KorvinStarmast

21:11

Duck, GTFO, prepare to abandon ship, and transmit a mayday so that someone knows where you are/were at the time. On the other hand, if they are shooting across your bow, just do what the warship says for you to do.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, makes sense. hopefully, the warship hears your distress call and realizes at that point that they dun goofed bad

KorvinStarmast

In any case, use your radio to report what's going on, be it to your company or on the channel for common trafic. That may either get you help, or warn others off from a dangerous area.

Shalvenay

aye

@KorvinStarmast found the report btw?

KorvinStarmast

Already read a lot of 383, El Faro is a very disappointing event. The pdf is now saved on my pc.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, El Faro is a big :/

KorvinStarmast

21:18

Did you know anyone on that ship?

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast no, but looking at it in the abstract...it's not pretty

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, the sea is merciless enough without there being a tropical cyclone in play ...

Shalvenay

especially with Joaquin running around, messing up our forecast models

KorvinStarmast

As regards this pithy summation Contributing to the loss of life was the lack of appropriate survival craft for the conditions I don't think that "handle a hurricane" is a requirement for life rafts.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, about the only apropos survival craft for what they were dealing with was a modern-type, freefall, fully-enclosed lifeboat

KorvinStarmast

21:24

Or a submarine so that you can get well below the surface and wait it out. :)

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast heheheh

Shalvenay

22:06

btw @KorvinStarmast if you want something less depressing to read afterwards, I think I found the un-Titanic: tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/marine/2016/m16c0016/…

doppelgreener

22:22

@Shalvenay aah, modern engineering at its most acceptable

i am given to understand that in the days of the Titanic, people didn't actually understand the properties of metal in cold very well, and just handled it as a super-strong material -- not understanding it would contract in the cold and not understanding it would be brittle.

(does that sound accurate?)

@BESW Good morning! I got a monster sleep last night.

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener yeah, nowadays, we have steel processing techniques to ensure that it stays ductile in cold conditions

BESW

@doppelgreener Yey!

Shalvenay

(look up "normalizing steel" for an idea of what's involved)

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay i read some stuff about it, and it sounds like it's about heating the steel to a critical temperature range in which its microstructure changes in certain beneficial ways.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast I'm sensing a theme. Waiting, that's it =)

BESW

22:37

@doppelgreener See also annealing, tempering, quenching.

You can even temper chocolate!

doppelgreener

:O

Shalvenay

@BESW don't forget about austempering and martempering

BESW

In fact, you must temper chocolate for most kinds of candy projects.

doppelgreener

tempered chocolate sword....

nitsua60

@doppelgreener candy box!?

BESW

22:40

Left to its own devices, melted cocoa butter hardens into any of six different crystals, but only one of them gives the feel and taste that we associate with good chocolate.

nitsua60

@BESW luckily, I tend not to leave chocolate to its own devices =)

trogdor

you melt it all yourself you mean?

nitsua60

IN MY BELLY!

trogdor

lol

Miniman

22:56

@trogdor I'd strongly recommend Paladin over Fighter for you, and dragonborn make great Paladins.

trogdor

paladin is good in 5e?

I didn't want to make assumptions but you know,... 3.5 had sorta mediocre paladins

Miniman

Personally, I think it's the most well-designed class.

trogdor

wow

ok

I am interested in trying that out then

and to be honest I always liked the flavor of Paladin

Miniman

Also, I think you'd be bored out of your skull playing 5e's fighter.

trogdor

it just wasn't,.... excecuted in the best way in 3.5

nitsua60

22:58

@trogdor ...being a dragon, and all.

trogdor

@Miniman fair enough there

@nitsua60 oh you

nitsua60

@Miniman yeah, even BM doesn't have the tactics that 4e would have. Probably just enough to make one miss it.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Wow, that one was perfectly set up.

Shalvenay

yah, Paladin is quite well done in 5e :)

trogdor

paladin it is

seems it can't come highly recommended enough

Shalvenay

23:10

the Oath system in 5e makes them much, much more flexible than 3.5e's version, and they also fixed the extreme MADness of the 3.5e pally (5e paladins use CHA for casting, thank gosh!)

hey there @inthemanual

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay especially after contact with trogdor's burnination

Shalvenay

:P

trogdor

BESW

A rather damp Ermine in Northumberland today @BBCSpringwatch

Tweeted by ElliottatChev on February 9, 2018 at 3:07 PM

KorvinStarmast

23:26

@trogdor yeah, 5e paladin is nicely rounded, and good options

BESW

Something for the weekend. A 282 year old East India Trading Company Ship returns to London for the first time since 1787.

Tweeted by CcibChris on February 9, 2018 at 7:08 PM

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast cool, I think it's pretty decided then XD

KorvinStarmast

Sorry, Iwas out doing chores.

@BESW was that under its own power, or were they using an engine below decks?

BESW

Götheborg (ship)

Götheborg is a sailing replica of an 18th-century Swedish East Indiaman and one of the world's largest operational wooden sailing vessels. All sailors survived when the original ship sank off Gothenburg, Sweden, on 12 September 1745, while approaching the harbour on her return from a third voyage to China. Construction of the replica started in 1995, with the hull launched in 2003, and the rig fully tested for the first time in 2005. Much of the time was spent researching how to rebuild the replica. In 2008, Götheborg completed the first Baltic Sea Tour. == Swedish East India Company == ...

For the purposes of RPG chat, I'm less interested in the real-life replica details and more interested in the kinds of adventures one could spin off the sensationalized headline.

KorvinStarmast

That's cool; well done those nice Swedish folks

@BESW well,since you have a picture of an F-4 Phantom next to the picture of that awesome ship, the adventures cross genres a bit. :)

@BESW I got a chance to visit the USS Constitution in Boston harbor a couple of decades ago; that family of ships amazes me, in terms of the craft and wit needed to make them.

But without pirates, how does this adventure begin?

Shalvenay

23:35

@KorvinStarmast maybe you need these pirates :P

Action of 1 April 2010

The Action of 1 April 2010 refers to a pair of naval engagements fought between United States Navy warships, a Sierra Leone merchant ship, and Somali pirate vessels operating off the Seychelles in the Indian Ocean. == Action == The frigate USS Nicholas (FFG-47) was attacked by small arms from a pirate skiff while steaming off the coast of Kenya and the islands of Seychelles. Nicholas returned fire with a 50-caliber deck gun and disabled the vessel and three pirates surrendered. Commander Mark Kesselring ordered the skiff sunk and proceeded to attack the nearby pirate mother ship from which the...

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay There's pirates, and then there's pirates. Maybe the Gotheborg could be a pirate ship whose crew and captain are anti petroleum / carbon fuels activists, or agents.... hmmmm, not sure how to make that work, but their non reliance on any fuel but the wind has a certain thematic quality

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast heheh

yeah, just what would motivate a pirate in a skiff to open fire on a warship with small arms?

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay Khat, perhaps ... most amphetamines help remove fear ....

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast perhaps

KorvinStarmast

Modern day version of Potion of Heroism, perhaps.

Ah, must assist the missus, dinner preps. Bodies are in bound.

Best wishes to all!

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